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fallout11 Tuesday, December 9th, 2003
Period of
Product Use:
6 months48 of 49 people found this review helpful.

Paintball
Experience:
More than 5 years
Similar
Products Used:
Armotech WG-65
"Normal" paintball guns (Automags, Cockers, Impulses, Timmies, blow-backs galore)
Marker Setup: AT-4 with eurogrip bottomline, new lighter trigger kit, SS hose, gas through T-stock, VL hopper adapter magazine w/Ricochet AK hopper, GG&G tactical sling.
Recommended
Upgrades:
Depends heavily on your style.
A remote line is a must-have, as is HPA.
I definitely like the VL hopper adapter magazine and a good motorized hopper (such as Ricochet AK), so you can use normal tubes, load normally, and carry 200 rounds ready to rock on the gun.
A stock is nice, for proper feel.
Don't put it straight on the ASA, although that looks "best", you are better off either with the eurogrip bottomline or getting the .45 style grip and a regular bottomline, and then put the stock on that (due to your mask).
Strengths: Looks real
Novel loading system
Light weight
Accurate!
Superb fit and finish
Weaknesses: Mechanically complex
Expensive
Plastic magazines
Slow semi-auto fire
Loud!
Review: I've been shooting an Automag RT for years, and recently decided I'd give the AT-4 a try, on the basis that it's also an all-mechanical marker, and very "unusual".

First, let me say that this is intended as a Scenario/recball marker.
Not to take anything from it, or imply any negative connotations, but you use the right tool for the job. It is what it is designed to be.

The AT-4 has the same internals as the AT-85, but comes with a different body, which utilizes real M-4 hardware, including front sites, foregrips, and carry handle/rear sight. It's made of a dark green-black ceramic/polymer, the same material used to make Glock pistols and Steyr AUG assault rifles. It has stainless steel internals.
Read the reviews of the AT-85 for more information.

Despite it's size (length), it is very light (5 pounds), especially compared to my mag, and "feels" really good. In fact, it really reminds me of my old M16.
The fit and finish of the parts is impecable, and the internal mechanism is built like a swiss watch. Precision.
The gun comes with a videotape, a spiral-bound manual, spare parts, and a velocity adjustment rod. It arrives pre-assembled, and with any "extras" you bought for it already factory installed.

The gun's got an autococking mechanism thats impossible to short stroke and an indexed force feed system that prevents chops. All of this without any electronics.
It uses an auto cocking nelson valve. There is a LPR and 4 way just like a cocker. Unlike a cocker, the gun's timing is locked in and not connected to the trigger.
The trigger trips the sear, the hammer strikes the valve and the valve strikes a lever that trips the 4 way to open the bolt and cock the hammer. When the ram fully cocks the hammer and opens the bolt, a collar on the ram trips the 4 way the otherway closing the system. It sounds complex, but as I said, it works like a swiss watch. Nothing to monkey with or adjust, either.
It is a closed-bolt marker, and as such it is not really a blowback marker.

To adjust the velocity, you put the rod down the barrel and screw the bolt in or out.
An interlocking cog and chain conveyor system loads balls, one per gun cycle, from the magazine.
It does not use the forward loaders of the AT-85, and cannot.
The "clips" for the gun are made of ABS plastic, and hold only 20-25 rounds each.
However, there is a neat little adapter plate which fixes this apparent shortcoming.
The VL magazine adapter bolts to any magazine, and allows you to put a normal hopper on the SIDE (yes, like a warp feed) of the gun, loading into the bottom of the magazine.
From there, the normal clip chain drive takes over. Loaded and indexed properly, it is IMPOSSIBLE for this gun to double feed, chop, or otherwise break balls in the breach, because the loading system is syncronized with the firing system and bolt. Neat!

The barrels is a simple aluminum tube, with a 2-step bore, and minimal porting. It is loud, but not in the cheap aluminum blowback ("ba-ring") sort of way. Instead, it sounds a lot like a real gun ("ka-rack") when fired, partly due to the internal construction and partly due to the barrel. I believe this to be a design feature.
This can be advantageous (intimidating), or a disadvantage (for stealthy folks).

The gun has a fire selector switch, pick from semi auto, safe, and full auto modes. You can lock out the full auto mode with a supplied screw.
Cyclic rate is about 13 bps on full auto, and about 5-6 bps on semi auto (slow, by most standards). However, I find this to be more than adequate for scenario play.
You should see the looks I get when fired on full auto. Sounds like a machinegun.
The gun is ultra-accurate, even more than my carefully tuned mag with barrel kit.
I have no idea why, especially given the stock barrel. Magic?

I like the new lighter trigger I ordered with mine, which makes the trigger very light (1.5 pounds pull, or so), but still very snappy. A recommended upgrade ($25), and they'll factory install it for you for no extra cost.
It also utilizes a built-in ball sizer (called a uni-sizer), which uses rubber glands to hold the ball in place (no stupid detents!) and get a good seal, no matter the ball size. Yes, a built-in mini-insert system. You can even mix and match different size balls, it doesn't care.

I've had no problems with maintenance, which is no different than most guns I've owned, or with reliability. You just have to be a bit more aware of what you're doing with this gun than some. It's certainly not as bad as most Cockers. Just more than some are comfortable with, or capable of. Not a good gun for (most) teenagers or newbies, but a fine weapon for someone with some mechanical skills or experience with real firearms. The manual recommends some minor cleaning and maintenance about every 5000 balls, not 500 as some folks claim. More than adequate for any 2 day event.

The gun is made in the USA, by a tiny company out of Minneapolis (ATS), who have shown me excellent customer service. They are quick to answer questions, ship orders, and fix anything you can think of. They also sell accessories.
I'd rate the customer service of ATS on a par with AGD, if that gives you a clue.

Even fully equipped and decked out as mine is, it weighs less than the stock Armotech guns, and is much better made, quality wise. Forget the heavy, poorly constructed "made in china" armotech junk, get one of these instead, you'll be much happier in the long run.

The gun takes regular AR-15/M-16/CAR-15/M-4 upgrades, such as foregrip weaver rails, vertical foregrips, slings, sights, scopes, red dots, harris bipods, tactical lights, lasers, and the like. Yeah, you can shop for goodies at your local gun store.
Get a gun case or bag for it, though, or you may have problems with local law enforcement. It can be mistaken for the real thing at a glance, or distance.

The M4 carry handle/rear sight, which has built in windage and elevation adjustments and is pretty nice, is removable, and underneath is a full-length RIS rail, like on a M-4. Perfect for night vision gear.

You pretty much have to run a remote with this gun, and it's NITRO ONLY. Forget CO2. Of course, it's the same with automags.
A gas through T or CAR stock is a real asset with this gun, too.
I hope to one day get good enough not to need the hopper and adapter, and just play with preloaded magazines, but not yet....

I get a lot of looks and questions about it, and folks show it MUCH more interest than the latest shiny battery-operated toy flavor of the month (insert name of marker here).
You won't see many of them in use, and for me, that's a plus.
Conclusion: For a scenario or rec-ball game, this gun is top drawer. Super nice!
I love it, and it has replaced my mag pretty much completely.
Only drawback I can see is it's price, and it's a little more vulnerable to screwing something up if you aren't careful or don't take care of it.
Overall, an excellent package.

I'd put it on the same playing field with the new tactical 'cocker, or any automag, for about the same money. Far superior to A-5's or any spyder-based gun on the market, or anything else that looks similar to the real Mccoy.
I'm very satisfied with mine!
I would buy another one in a minute, at full price, if mine were lost, stolen, or burned up in a fire, and that's really about the highest praise I can shower on any product.

Follow up (2-10-04): I still cannot get over this marker. I purchased more accessories for it just today.
I used it again this weekend throughout a 2 day scenario game, and it never let me down. Not a single ball broken in the mechanism, went flawlessly from day to night back to day velocities in the cold, and the unmatched confidence the full auto gives you cannot be understated. I gleefully engaged large groups of enemy players, knowing I actually had a chance against them all.
At night, with a NVG scope, single shots (and hits) to enemy goggles at 80-90 feet made my teammates cheer.
I was asked about my gun more times than I could count.
And enemy players reported "freezing" or jumping at the sound of it firing.
Rating:
9 out of 10Last edited on Wednesday, August 4th, 2004 at 6:57 am PST
 

Review Comments
blahshelby Tuesday, January 13th, 2004 | 6:36 pm PST
Finally, someone who actually owns one makes a review. With details. Thank you! I have been looking at these for about a year, now, and trying to figure out how to get one. I should be up to par soon, and I am strongly looking at the AT-4. I already have a very reliable sniper marker, but I would love to have the AT-4 for my close-quarter combat stuff. Now if I could only talk the rest of my team into getting them.
   

TrashDoG Saturday, February 7th, 2004 | 4:49 pm PST
how do you like the AT-4 compared to the WG-65? I own a 65 and its acuracy and looks and feel are insane, not to mention it weighs nearly the exact same amount as the real M4
   

fallout11 Tuesday, February 10th, 2004 | 12:28 pm PST
There is absolutely no comparison between the AT4 and the WG-65.
That's like comparing a Concorde and a Piper cub.

The AT4 is so far superior to the Armotech guns that it isn't even funny.
Armotech's chop paint, which never happens with the ATS guns. I've put 3 cases through it already and not a ball broken, except near the end of the barrel.
Cyclic rate is superb and consistant, accuracy is dead-on.

And in answer to the question, I'd say it's half the weight of the WG-65, or an M16A2 (I've never shot the M4....).
With a fully loaded hopper, it weighs less than the WG-65 empty and hopperless.
The AT-4 shell is made of composite polymers (like fiberglass), while the Armotech WG-65 has an aluminum body.
That's most of the extra weight.
Last edited on Tuesday, February 10th, 2004 at 12:46 pm PST
   

ceccarelli77 Friday, February 20th, 2004 | 8:50 am PST
Hey fallout, great review. I actually have a crappy spyder that I have been dying to discard for something better, and your review opened my eyes. I purchased one on tuesday of this week and I can't wait for it to be delivered. The only problem is that I'm having difficulty reaching at systems for confirmation. I was wondering if perhaps you might have a different contact name or something else that is on www.getrealpaintball.com? Please let me know. My direct e-mail is ceccarelli77@yahoo.com.
Please help me. I know it's a great product and I'm dying to get my hands on one of these babies.
   

fallout11 Monday, February 23rd, 2004 | 12:05 pm PST
Mr. Ceccarelli's newly ordered AT-4 arrived later the same day he posted here, asking me to help him to get a confirmation from ATS.
He posted the following regarding it on the ATS message board the next day:

"ATS ROCKS!!
ceccarelli77 on 2/21/2004 10:08 am
I just received my AT4 and tried it out today. I could not be any happier. I didn't break a single paintball and the accuracy is superb. I would like to thank everyone over there for making a great product. Everyone kept asking me questions as soon as I got to the field. I think everyone there had a chance to fire this thing so I believe you might be getting some more orders for this next week =).
Thanks again for everything.
<*name deleted for privacy protection*>"

I think that sums it up pretty well. I hope he will post his own review here after he has some time to play with it more.
   

Jay63002 Saturday, March 6th, 2004 | 7:26 am PST
you said that you use an "early WG-65"......that could be the reason you dont like them.....the earlier models had a lot of problems with velocity, chopping balls especially and other issue..

all of these have been fixed now and im extremely confident in my gun.

the reason it weighs so much more is because when armotech designed it, they wanted it to be the EXACT weight of a real m4.....therefore....they made it as close to the exact weight as they could. and honestly i think the fact that the gun is made out of aluminum instead of plastic is an asset.

armotech guns are more versatile, tried and true and better quality than anything else on the market right now. the fact that they can run on any kind of gas....(instead of the
at-4 running ONLY on expensive nitro), EASILY adjusted for velocity, instead of having to shove a rod down the barrel of the gun and turning to adjust the velocity, all you have to do on an armotech is turn a thumbscrew.

there are more readily available upgrades for armotechs then at-4's and you can also use real m4/ar-15/m16 rifle accessories on it which is nice if because if you know the right places to look you can get mil surplus stuff really cheap.

and im sorry.....no paintball marker can shoot 75 - 80 yards accurately.....thats over 230 feet.....it just doesnt happen.....maybe you exaggerated...
   

fallout11 Tuesday, March 9th, 2004 | 4:42 am PST
Jay63002 - Yes, I meant feet, not yards, and I will correct the review accordingly, as soon as PBreview gets the editing feature fixed.

Hey, no one is trying to say you shouldn't buy an Armotech product.
In fact, now that I think about it, the fewer people with AT-4's, the better for me!
I already own one of the Armotech guns myself, I just don't use it anymore.
My review only reflects my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
Your mileage may vary.

As a side note on marker materials (synthetic bodies vs. aluminum)
The US army is replacing its M-4s with HK XM8s, starting next year.
Guess what they're made out of? Yep, synthetic (plastic).
I wonder why..... =P
Last edited on Tuesday, March 9th, 2004 at 4:49 am PST
   

Sunspider Friday, July 2nd, 2004 | 2:28 pm PST
Our whole team www.sunspiders.com uses them all AT-4's we would not have anything else.
   

Dirk Pitt Tuesday, August 17th, 2004 | 10:07 am PST
Hey fallout how big are the clips these use? What i mean by that is could u compare to an m16 clip, is it about the size of a 30rd m16 clip?
   

fallout11 Saturday, August 28th, 2004 | 6:22 pm PST
Hi Dirk,
Sorry, I don't check this thing that often, or I'd have answered sooner.

The clips measure 1.25" thick by 3.125" wide by 4.75" tall at the highest point (near the rear). They are boxy and slightly tapered, like the old 20-round M16/AR15 clips.
As to how this compares with the real mccoy....quite a bit "thicker", neccesary due to the width of the paintballs, a little wider, and just slightly longer than a 20-round box.
Overall, roughly the size of a inexpensive disposible camera.
I'm guessing you are curious as to what they might fit in, and you've got me there. I know I can put one in each of the upper pockets of my tactical vest, but it's Russian, so that's probably not much help....
I usually just use the adapter plate, a hopper, and 100 round pods myself. Your mileage may vary.
   

MyOwnEnemy Wednesday, November 24th, 2004 | 12:12 am PST
Hey fallout, not sure if youre even coming back to this review anymore. I'd like to talk to you myself over email, aim, or msn? My AIM is Skitz0 MonK3Y and my email is MyOwnEnemy@Gmail.com. My MSN is LoadedDEAGLE@Hotmail.com. Thanks man
   

DerAdler Thursday, December 30th, 2004 | 7:30 pm PST
quote:
Originally posted by MyOwnEnemy
Hey fallout, not sure if youre even coming back to this review anymore. I'd like to talk to you myself over email, aim, or msn? My AIM is Skitz0 MonK3Y and my email is MyOwnEnemy@Gmail.com. My MSN is LoadedDEAGLE@Hotmail.com. Thanks man
send him a private message
   

elmatto91 Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005 | 9:50 pm PST
firestorm, ur little bitc*, maybe i will buy a real gun and use it to shoot you.
Last edited on Tuesday, March 22nd, 2005 at 9:51 pm PST
   

cradle_of_filth Thursday, November 3rd, 2005 | 1:32 pm PST
is the hk xm8 green? whatever but its hechler and koch(is that how its spelled)so you know its good after the mp5's succes.but its made of synthetic material?
   

§plit§econd Friday, February 24th, 2006 | 2:53 am PST
Great review Fallout, Ive owned one almost forever and you said it all right, guys Fallout's review says it all.
   

XWolfeX Thursday, August 10th, 2006 | 10:50 am PST
Quick update for all you AT-4 people who have one or are looking for one. ATS is no longer supplying the video that used to come with the package. Also, while the main body of the gun will come assembled, if you get a rear sight, red dot, stock, or anything else, it won't be connected and you will have to put it together yourself. That being said, it is a great marker, and is very "unusual" as fallout said. What Jay63002 said was actaully wrong. The gun comes with a weaver rail setup, so any military M4/M16 addons that you want, can be mounted on the gun. Also with the way this gun is setup, you don't really need alot of upgrades. I will be posting my own review at a later date.
   

bdwho25 Tuesday, March 13th, 2007 | 8:26 pm PST
amazing review!
   

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