accurate, air consumption when from 1300 balls at 900 psi to 2100 at 325
please see below
First I have a x-stream regulator and therefor do not need a second regulator, the kit does not let you set up the marker unless you have a second regulator that mounts on the marker, and you can not use the standard parts to install kit.
Second, After having played with the low pressure system for about two weeks now I have shot about 6000 rounds and the bolt has failed.
I shoot an e-grip frame and had problems with the bolts breaking from the very start. tippmann has sent me four bolts and sears (over the last year of using the e-grip) all of which failed. Until the last bolt and sear which was hardened and had stopped the problem of breaking the bolt.
When I bought the comp-air it came with a replacement bolt. This bolt is not hardened and has broken after about three cases, which is all the unhardened bolts lasted before. When I called tippmann about this problem they stated that they did not have a hardened bolt for the comp-air kit yet and that the best I could do is replace the bolt every 6000 rounds when it broke.
When I asked him to send me a new bolt he told me he could not send me a bolt that the comp-airs are a kit and that I would have to send him my gun so they can change it out.
So what I am faced with is that if I want to use this kit I will have to send my gun into tippmann every other week to get fixed until they start making kits with hardened bolts. Shipping is $24.00 from here to there. (please see march 16 update.)
Update on March 1, 2004
I am modifying this review because of comments I have received and because of comments I have read on other reviews on this product.
First I want to respond to wings comments.
Let me quote “There is no way you busted that many bolts and sears that quickly. It’s just not possible.”
Yes I have 4 bolts 4 drive pins and 4 sears sitting on my desk. Is this a problem caused by low-pressure air? NO.
It is a problem caused by my e-grip. And if you look around the forums you will see that there are a lot of us that had the same problem. Over the last year, Tippmann had so many of us having this problem that they made a kit to fix the problem which has a hardened bolt, a hardened sear, and a hardened drive pin.
Is this a problem for persons using the low-pressure system without an e-grip? NO
Those of you using the low-pressure air with and e-grip you will have the same problems that so many of you wrote about on the news forums until tippmann comes out with a fix. Just like they did the first time before the low pressure air kit came out.
Second quote from wings: “Second, you don't need a secondary reg if you have an adjustable output tank. You can get an adapter and connect a steel braided hose or macro-line to where the reg would go.”
I know this wings, the fact that I have an adjustable output tank is the reason for my complaint. Why should you have to spend even more money to buy an adapter, connector and a steel braided hose when you just spent $120.00 on the low-pressure kit? It just seems unprofessional to me that tippmann did not take this into consideration. You would not buy a car and then expect to have to buy tires before you could use it would you?
With that stated I did buy a second regulator, it turns out that on e-bay I could buy a worr egro regulator for $25.00 which was less then the adapter, connector, and steel braided hose would have cost me. And the regulator fixed a lot of problems I had with the kit. First it gave me a great front grip, second it lets me use CO2, or a HPA that is preset to high pressure only, and last I could use the parts that came with the kit to install the kit.
Third quote from wings: “Third, there is no way your getting 1300 shots off a 68cu tank. At most you should be getting 1000, and with the A-5 being as much of a gas hog as it is thats probably closer to about 900. Also the LPK does not increase air efficiency. If you are hitting the paintball with less force (lower pressure) it takes more mass (higher volume) to compensate. Based soley on physics you would get the exact same number of shots regardless of the pressure. In reality there is going to be a sweet spot that will give you slightly elevated shots per tank but no way its gonna increase it by 800!! Even 100 would be allot to ask for.”
Wings I did do research, I am a mechanical engineer by trade and the number one error I run across in my work is people that take a narrow approach to an engineering problem. Please follow along.
First, you are right for a paintball of equal weight to go down the same barrel and be accelerated to the same speed takes the same amount of work. So based on Physics you are right, As far as the ball is concerned.
Now open your mind up a little and look at the next part of the system, the bolt. The bolt for the low-pressure air system is one-third the weight. They have drilled a ¾ inch hole though the middle of the bolt then drilled two more holes completely though the sides of the bolt. Then they replaced the center cavity with an aluminum slug. Now my physics friends what does that mean to our system?
Simply stated you do not have to use as much air (mass) to cycle your bolt. This is why so many of the reviewers are stating that they feel a lot less recoil. To test this I placed the marker in a ransom rest and tested the recoil of the gun. Taking advantage of a set of alligator clips placed on my e-grip so I could activate the trigger without touching the gun. Those of you that state you feel less recoil you are feeling six ounces less force.
Less bolt weight, less recoil, translate into less work being done. Why a heavier bolt, Because CO2 is denser then air. When I called tippmann for help with my HPA they told me increase my pressure to 900 to make up for the difference in density. High pressure is designed around CO2. Low pressure is designed around air/Nirto. Since our power source is the air, the lighter bolt means less air used. Is it a lot less? No. But when you are talking 1300 to 2000 shots it adds up.
The next thing tested is the lower noise. Ok wings lets look at physics, if you have the same mass of high pressure air as you do low pressure air as you stated above then the sound should be the same. Physics does state that the same mass of air will have the same pressure if place in the same volume. So by the time the ball gets to the end of the barrel the high pressure air will have expanded and lowered pressure. The low-pressure air will have expanded and lowered pressure. If what you state above is true and they use the same amount of air (mass), then the pressure and volume for both systems will be the same at the end of the barrel. So when the ball leaves the barrel the sound should be the same. As most of the persons that have reviewed the low-pressure system state the noise is a lot less. The difference measured at three feet from the marker, using a flatline (no ports) on a B scale is 10dB. This would mean that the gun is using more air, On high pressure. Why would it be using more air, To move the heavier bolt would be my guess.
Now open your mind a little more, the high-pressure system works at high pressure, why do I state the obvious, because you missed it. My Nitro duck is set to 900 PSI (tippmann tech shop stated that was optimum) and stops working at around 1100 PSI because of the two stages working together. The low-pressure air system stops working at 350 PSI when the low pressure is set to 325. Even the nitro duck techs could not explain why the two regulators have less of a pressure differential at the lower pressures. They told me it was in the dynamics of the system. Any way this means that I have 1100 – 350 = 750 PSI of air in my tank that I can now use, Since my marker keeps working beyond the 1100 PSI mark. I have not tested this completely but so far that “extra” air has added a hopper and a half more shots to my game after the needle on the gauge goes below 1100.
So you see wings if you open up your mind and look at the big picture you will find the true answer.
As far as my gun shooting 1300 balls on one fill well I take 10 pods with 100 rounds each to a game and before I run out of air I go back to my car and fill up three more. That is 13 times 100 = 1300. I had been doing this for about a year now. After the low pressure air system was added I have been finding myself filling my pods twice or 20 times 100 = 2000. And not running out of air. Sorry if this does not compute for you. one small note on this one if you look at dwolkomir's review above he states that he can shoot a case of paint out of a Pure energy 68/5000. 68 nitro duck , 68 Pure energy, 5000 PSI, 4500 PSI, sound like we are saying the same thing.
Wings as for your last comment. I quote “Please do some research and at least try out a product before reviewing it. Its pretty obvious you don't know what your talking about”
I thank you for your input it has helped me find some weaknessess in my review. but do not make assumptions about a person it only shows your own level of understanding about the subject matter at hand..
Spitfire states “If you are referring to the high pressure as being CO2. Than this would not necessarily be true.... The nature of compressed CO2 as a liquid would dictate that when the pressure is released i.e. that ball traveling down the barrel, than the CO2 would revert back to a gaseous state and would occupy the same space but at the same or higher pressure. To say this is untrue implies that either the CO2 does not revert back to a gas when pressure is released or that a large amount of CO2 disappeared into nowhere during this process. The former is obviously false and the latter violates energy conservation.”
Spitfire, I really hope that you are not shooting liquid co2 down your barrel. You are right co2 reverts back to a gas when the pressure is released. To be precise at sea level and 70 degrees F this happens at 800 PSI. That is why your marker works at 800 PSI. But the liquid co2 should have reverted back to gas before it enters the valve of your marker, Not in the barrel. That is the goal of all players that is why we use expansion chambers in front of our valves. So the co2 expands, or in your term reverts to gas, before it enters the valves/marker.
So going back to your statement about my review. The statement is not false and I did not violate the law of energy conservation. Since the co2 leaving the valve (i.e. entering the barrel) is already in a gaseous form and not reverting to gas in the barrel. My previous statement holds true. By the time the ball gets to the end of the barrel the high pressure air will have expanded, and lowered pressure. The low-pressure air will have expanded and lowered pressure. And the pressures and volumes will be the same if wings assumption that both high and low pressure systems use the same mass of air is right.
Spitfire spitfire stated on 04-20-2004 02:41 PM:
all markers fire liquid CO2 down the barrel during firing, even very large expansion chambers (6 and 8 stage) dont allow for a full conversion of CO2 into gas. i can tell u from experience, and from what local airsmith says, that the A-5's steel braided hose allows for little if any conversion into gas. thats what causes ballbreaks, liquid CO2 hits the ball at high speeds and fractures the shell, when the bolt hits it a fraction of a second later he shell shatters because it is unable to redirect the energy around the ball due to the fractures. This is also the cause of "fog" and "snow" in cooler weather because the CO2 doesnt even expand outside of the barrel.
Spitfire, where do you live? I know that when it is cold you can get liquid down the barrel but here in New Mexico that happens very seldom, One month out of the year at most.
But since you took the time to answer me, I figured it was worth the time to test your theory. A local machine shop was nice enough to let me borrow their CO2 sensor off of their braising oven. The sensor consists of a long rod with a CO2 sensor at the end. It is used to make sure that no liquid CO2 enters the oven while it is in the cool down mode (the last thing you want is liquid CO2 hitting a case hardened part).
We used my jj ceramic barrel on my A5 then placed the sensor into the barrel and attached a 24oz CO2 tank. At first I thought I was going to have to eat my words here. The first one-second 17 round bust showed liquid CO2 coming out of the bolt and into the camber part of the barrel. The second burst showed the same. But after the third there was no liquid CO2 being detected. We increased the bursts to 15-second burst with 15-second rest in-between until we emptied the tank. The result was one real cold tank and gun but no liquid CO2 we had a lot of water build up and vapor but no CO2. The second and third tank responded the same way. The first couple bursts would show liquid then the rest of the tank would show vaporization. The oven tech told us that they would purge the top of new tanks before using them so the top of the tank will have a gas pocket in them and the liquid does not make it to the valve. He said that a similar occurrence could be what is happening during the first couple bursts of the gun. This is what an anti siphon tank does right? That is a real question since I do not fully understand the anti siphon tanks used in paintball.
Spitfire once again I thank you for your question and for the challenge. If it was not for the machine shop we may have had to agree to disagree on this one. One thing about “urban legends” all sports have them. Someone says that liquid CO2 is the cause of ball breaks. And in some cases it is, as you stated cold weather is one, hence the reason I asked where you live. But taking the step that it happens all the time and then telling others it is a fact is how “urban legends” start. The best thing we can do is test everything for ourselves and then draw our own conclusion from our test. Thanks again and take care, take cover, and be safe.
Update March 16, 2004.
When my gun was returned this last time the tech told me that the problem was fixed and I should not have anymore problems with the bolt.
Over the last week I have shot over 6000 rounds with no sign of the bolt or sear being damaged. It looks like tippmann might have fixed the problem.
Also I have my gun set to 325 and with my J&J ceramic barrel am holding all my shots on a standard size CD at 35 yards. The noise level is almost unnoticeable with a mask on. And with the turbo set I can hold 24 rounds a second.
as promised I am moving my rating from a 2 to a 10 now that the problem is fixed
Update June 17 2004
I never thought that a one-paragraph review would turn into a full-page review.
Here are the latest comments and replies:
Originally posted by FIELD WEAZEL
I must say driver this is great review the only problem will be transfering the infermaiton to my friend. Also was i mistakened when you said you can use CO2 with your low pressure kit. I was wondering because I want to get this kit for my gun but will have to wait a while before I can get a nitro tank. Being able to use my CO2 tank and this kit would be really nice while I save up money.
Field, yes you can use CO2 with this system as long as you have the right regulator (i.e. one that can handle CO2)
Originally posted by archenemyballer
Also I have my gun set to 325
um i reall hope you're not playing like that as the international speed limit is 300 fps. thats pretty dangerous.
Archenemyballer I do not know about the international speed limits but the 325 that I mentioned was pounds per square inch of pressure. That is what a low-pressure system does for you it lets you go from 700-900 PSI that a high pressure system runs at and lowers it to bellow 400 PSI mine is set to 325 PSI.
Just for giggles and laughs I shoot a flatline barrel and would love to see a ball that holds up to 325 feet per second it would be fun to shoot. But right now I will have to be happy with 275 FPS.
Originally posted by prowlernj
Does this problem also occur with a "RT" also or only with an "e-grip"? I want to get the Low Pressure Kit for my A-5 and i have a RT installed on my gun. Are you using high or low pressure N2 tanks? could your bolt be breaking because you're using an high pressure tank?
Prowlernj, as far as I know it only affected the original E-grip system. RT fitted units should be fine. I run a Low pressure Nitro duck X-stream regulator set to 400 PSI then let my worr reg bring it down to 325PSI so no I do not think the tank is the problem. Especially since the worr brings it down to the same 325PSI no matter what tank I use, the gun/valve/bolt see the same pressure. It is a nice theory though.
Originally posted by str8luk
First of all i can appreciate your explanations, I liked them a lot and found them to be quite amusing as well as informative. I'm into physics myself and followed your explanations quite well. Thank you. But I was wondering if you could clear this one up for me. It was just the bolt that caused your problems yes or no. I have an a5 and want to get the low-pressure kit, but I don't have a e grip i am getting the response trigger. Would that create any probs that you can for see. Thanks in advance. If you would like you can just direct this response to my email, firstname.lastname@example.org
Str8luk, same as I told prowlernj I do not know of any problems with the RT fitted units. So you should be fine.
Originally posted by El Scorpio
What are all the things I need to get an Egrip and low pressure system running on my A5 most efficiently?
El Scorpio, a low-pressure kit, a good reg (I like worr, and bob long torpedoes), some gas pipe sealent (do yourself a favor and do not use the locktite that comes with the kit), a low pressure gauge (the kit comes with a placed to put one on the bottom of the expansion chamber but does not have one) so you can read the input pressure to the valve assembly, and one deep well socket for the mounting nut that holds on the front handle replacement where the reg is installed.
Originally posted by Mythos
First, I like your review and effort that you've put in, it's very informative.
Second, I was wondering that now that they finally fixed the problem of the gun? Would they have fixed the problem on all LPR kits? I mean, I'm sure there were earlier versions of the kit still floating around the market, and I'm wondering if there's anyway of filtering out which kit has the newer bolts that does not break?
Mythos, I know that all the new ones are fixed but I go not know how you would know if you were getting a new one or old one
Originally posted by jeep 98 custom
And with the turbo set I can hold 24 rounds a second. "
My only question for you is this; how are you shooting 24 BPS when the E-Grip board is capped at 15 BPS? I call BS on that one...
Jeep, I was wondering when you were going to drop by and leave me a note. You are right the new boards from what I understand are capped at 15 ball per second when set to full auto. The old ones like mine can do 17-18 balls per second on full auto. But if you noticed (I hope you would since you quoted me) I did not say auto I stated Turbo. For those of you that do not know how an e-grip works let me explain. Auto only is one of the functions that an e-grip has. In auto mode you can set the rate of fire from 1 BPS to 15 BPS new boards 18 BPS on some old boards.
Turbo is different in that it works like a normal trigger, until you pull the trigger real fast for three consecutive rounds then every pull of the trigger fires on the pull and on the release in essence you get two shots per pull. I like this mode better because it is not capped at 15-18 rounds but is limited only by how fast you can pull the trigger. You pull the trigger 12 times a second you get 24BPS.
Now jeep I know a lot of players that can fan a trigger 12 times in one second and all of them get 24BPS over the radar at the local paint shop.
But I’ll tell you what. I’ll tell you the same thing I tell others that say it is BS. Lets line up opposite each other on a field and empty a hopper at each other. We will stop when one of us is empty. I hope you can empty yours in less then10 second because that is what it takes to empty mine. There has been a lot of player take me up on this. Funny because come to think of it none of them tried it twice. Or told me I was full of BS again. And so I extend the offer to yet another.
Then you can call it BS if you would like… :-)
Well once again this is the newest updates hope all this has helped someone.
As far as Big_Boycars_0 who wrote “You dumb dumb. It's SEAR, not SHEAR.lol”
Thank you for the correction on sear. But should you not use the comment page for what it is meant for? Even Einstein had typographical errors. Telling me I am “dumb dumb” does not help me better my review. Please leave comments on the essence of the review, as wings did. I can then give you an honest reply, and so I can do a better job. Since helping others make an educated decision is what this is all about.Your comment did not help my review it only left me wondering how old you were?
tippmann should not release products they have not fully tested with all their products. and i do not know why i should have to incur a cost every two or three weeks just so i can play with the comp air. with that stated I will give this product a 10 as soon as they fix the problems with the e-grip/ low pressure air bolt. if you do not have an e-grip buy this product and you will like it very much. if you have an e-grip get ready for another year of problems with the e-grip bolt if you buy this product. I hope it does not take that long to get a fix. (please see march 16 update)
10 out of 10
Last edited on Thursday, June 17th, 2004 at 3:18 pm PST
Dispute: This guy is a gas bag I have an lpk for 2 years and zero problem I play every month and shoot about 4000 round a game as I am the heavy gunner my gun is set on the turbo mod. And it has never failed.
It seems the problem is with his gun not the tippman product.
you seem to be the most knowledgeable on the subject so mybe you could tell me whether or not the low pressure chamber is actually needed. could i just run the lighter hammer, and valve with a palmer male stabilizer (and no low pressure chamber/vertical adapter) and still have it run at 300-400 psi?
i goat goats
Diver, I was wondering if you've noticed any performance increases/decreases with your flatline related to the LPK. I know 275fps is a great speed for a flatline, but have you noticed any chage in the amount of paint you're chopping?
Goats, if I were you, I'd still use the volumizer, but store the male stabilizer in the stock of the gun like this person did: http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index.php?showtopic=102 022
(I've been thinking about doing this myself, and I already have a male stabilizer) I'd use a gas thru stock (or make your own), take the line from the nipple on the outside (what the remote hooks up to), route that in the input of your reg, use an ASA, and take the output, and feed that directly into the volumizer like the guy in my link did.