PC insanity at DDay game..

[trench_raider]

I'm sure you have all heard about the big DDay event in Oklahoma that was featured in both APG and "Paintball". You can find the site for said event at:

http://www.oklahomadday.com/


Some folks in my local group are quite fired up about attending that event.
As a WW2 buff/reenactor I have been seriously considering it as well.

However I am more than a little bit anoyed at the policy change slated for
the 2003 event. It seems that the organizers have decided to ban all
"Swastikas, SS runes, and other Nazi iconography" at this event. As stated
above, I'm a reenactor and my German uniform would be a serious contendor
for the "Best costume" award. However, this change would require me to
remove or cover up the runes on my collar and the eagle on my sleave, not to
mention leave off just about every medal and decoration.

In my mind this policy change is catering to the PC crowd to a sickening
degree. Anyone who comes to a WW2 themed event and is offended by the sight
of Nazi iconography is :
a>too sensitive
b>naive
c>an idiot
or
d>All of the above.

But in the final analysis it is a privately owned site and a they have the
right to set whatever rules they want, however misguided. I just wonder if
they are are going to ban Allied insignia just to be fair.... ;-p

I'll probably still be going, but will wear my SS reversible camo smock and
helmet cover without any visible collar tabs, sleave eagles, or helmet
decals.

"Trench Raider"
RMOG
AO
BEOG

[FireViper]

it's ridiculous if you ask me if the PC attitude gets much worse WW2 movies won't even be allowed to have Nazis in them. They'll just be known as the "bad guys". I don't no who said it but there's a saying that goes "a symbol only has as much power as you give it". The Swastika and runes were noble symbols before Hitler, Himmler, and their ilk got ahold of them.

[Sluggo]

What did the nazis do? oh thats right they killed 13 million jews. We should sponser there logo because of this? I think not. Not to mention there are still nazi groups around that hate everyone but themselves, there just like the kkk but bigger, so why should we sponser them?

[Urban-Coyote]

who cares. as long as your not going around trying to gather support and yelling their slogans...

[Sluggo]

Originally posted by Urban-Coyote
who cares. as long as your not going around trying to gather support and yelling their slogans...

Isnt there symbol just the same?

[FireViper]

Originally posted by Sluggo
What did the nazis do? oh thats right they killed 13 million jews. We should sponser there logo because of this? I think not. Not to mention there are still nazi groups around that hate everyone but themselves, there just like the kkk but bigger, so why should we sponser them?

So yo've never watched a WW2 movie? If you have you must be sponsoring Nazi's because that what you just said in the statement you made. I'm not saying what the Nazis did was ok or not a tragic period in our history but it shoudl not be ignored or forgotten. And just because someone goes for authenticity in a costume does not mean they sposor those acts in scenario games you play pccasionally play a role why should someone be punished for trying to do the best they can in that role. Also it's not "their" (not "there") logo the swastika dates back far before the Nazi's and was even on Coca-Cola products at one time it's a symbol of power. Please get your facts straight before pinning a negative definition on anything.

I can tell this will be debated more...I look forward to it.

[Sluggo]

Originally posted by FireViper


Also it's not "their" (not "there") logo the swastika dates back far before the Nazi's and was even on Coca-Cola products at one time it's a symbol of power. Please get your facts straight before pinning a negative definition on anything.

I can tell this will be debated more...I look forward to it.

It was a symbol of power, but now its known as a symbol of hate. I also never said they came up with the sign, did I? Also your first sentance doesnt make any sense "its not their (not there)"

I will look forward to the debate

[Cadet2005]

The swastika stems from the power class in Hindu religion, originally the Aryan invaders. As for it being sign of death, no, it wasn't. The Nazi party was the Worker's Party, that was what the symbol meant, its connotation has come across as evil but in fact there really isn't anything wrong with it. The problem finds its origins from the American and British Governments who exploited it as a means of pro-war propoganda.

As for it adding to the reenactment, it isn't needed...take it and suck it up. Only the Waffen-SS, the brutal members of Hitler's armed forces were given the shoulder patch and they did not particpate in combat until the "Homeland" was invaded by American and British paratroopers in Operation Market-Garden on September 17, 1944. The standard Panzergrenadieres and Volksgrenadiers did not have the swastika anywhere on their clothing or helmets because they were often not members of the Nazi party...Rommel wasn't even a Nazi, he was a Prussian officer forced by duty to serve under Hitler (hence the attempted assination attempt).

You don't need swastikas on arm patches to represent a German soldier of WWII...you need to just have some of the most developed armor and tactics in the world...that's my opinion.

One more thing: it is techincally no different than the Confederate flag from the Civil War, the blue "X" across a field of red. The flag represents the secession from an overbearing Federal Government, not slavery...the fighting population didn't even own slaves for the most part...yet its implication to the masses is the more negative ideal. We must accept the opinions of the majority, and you don't need a flag or armband to signify yourself as German or whatever to be of the German forces.

[FireViper]

Like I said before a symbol only has the power you give it. Runestones and swastikas are not something to be scared of or angry at I'm willing to bet half the yahoos out there who glorify it don't even now it's orgins. The only reason people think of it as a symbol of hate (aside from the Holocaust) is because of dramtization in the years after at the time the US didn't even care about the Nazi issue. We wanted Japan. Now, why isn't the "rising sun" (which is technially the same thing as a swastika) seen on the Japanese flag villified in the sma why? Because it wasn't as dramatized. Hollywood felt the denomic Nazis were a better sotry which there were, but if you go back to the political films, satires, etc. all potrayed the Japanese as sub-human killers but it apparently never caught on entirely. You neglected to answer my questio in my post about seeing WW2 movies I'd like to see your thoughts on that.

and the statement of { not "there" } refers to you saying it was there logo which is really beside the point.

[jakesak]

It all depends on the way you present it. If you go about it the way I belive raider would it would be professinalism and proper. But if a 14 year old kid goes and dresses up in homemade SS uniform and goes around talking about jewish people, that is where the line is drawn. raider (I belive) will present this in a way of learning and history, on the other hand the 14 year old would be symthaising witht eh nazi party. As for some facts that you will never need: only 5-10% of the german army was ss. ss were the only ones to go after jewish people. the Swastika was first adodted by the 40something Armoerd Divsion in WWI (Unit in Oklahoma) and the hitler took it and tited it 45 degrees. The sign was meaning of good luck. Henry Ford was a nazi.

[Cadet2005]

FireViper there are very few accurate WWII movies about the German's Third Reich made...in Saving Private Ryan, I counted and the shots fired from various weapons were exaggerated as were the the deployment of certain weapons. In the Longest Day, there were fewer mistakes but I remember a special on some errors. The Japanese were correctly displayed as being killers because of their Shinto upbringing (the Bushido code of death before dishonor). Watch the movie Tora***ora***ora! and you will see that America screwed up...one of the more accurate movies on Pearl I have seen.

It is a sign of Aryan power, the swastika I mean, and they do know that...they preach it's origins as right for it existed in the Hindu Caste system for centuries so it must be "divinely right".

[FireViper]

Originally posted by Cadet2005
The swastika stems from the power class in Hindu religion, originally the Aryan invaders. As for it being sign of death, no, it wasn't. The Nazi party was the Worker's Party, that was what the symbol meant, its connotation has come across as evil but in fact there really isn't anything wrong with it. The problem finds its origins from the American and British Governments who exploited it as a means of pro-war propoganda.

As for it adding to the reenactment, it isn't needed...take it and suck it up. Only the Waffen-SS, the brutal members of Hitler's armed forces were given the shoulder patch and they did not particpate in combat until the "Homeland" was invaded by American and British paratroopers in Operation Market-Garden on September 17, 1944. The standard Panzergrenadieres and Volksgrenadiers did not have the swastika anywhere on their clothing or helmets because they were often not members of the Nazi party...Rommel wasn't even a Nazi, he was a Prussian officer forced by duty to serve under Hitler (hence the attempted assination attempt).

You don't need swastikas on arm patches to represent a German soldier of WWII...you need to just have some of the most developed armor and tactics in the world...that's my opinion.

One more thing: it is techincally no different than the Confederate flag from the Civil War, the blue "X" across a field of red. The flag represents the secession from an overbearing Federal Government, not slavery...the fighting population didn't even own slaves for the most part...yet its implication to the masses is the more negative ideal. We must accept the opinions of the majority, and you don't need a flag or armband to signify yourself as German or whatever to be of the German forces.

I agree with you it's not needed but I see no fault in them using it either (other than it will most likely offend people) especially when thinking of the difficulty of finding authentic military surplus of that nature (which they probably didn't do). But I do disagree that we have to accept popular opinion even when its wrong(especially in the instance of the "bars and stripes"). I do think we can recognize and even respect why people feel that way, but accept it that's a different thing all together.

[MINDofSIN]

I'm the kind of guy who would actually buy a uniform with a swastika just to piss people off.

If they get offended by a costume at what is basically a fun event with authentic equipment from a war, they're idiots. I don't care what anyone says. They're simply too stupid to realize everyone isn't out to offend them.

Ever watch King of The Hill? See the one where the lady made people stop going trick or treating because she thought they were worshiping the devil? Yeah, it's kind of like that.

[bobalis]

Look i'm jewish and i wouldn't be offended if i see someone wearing a german uniform with the swasticka(sp?) on it. I know it is just for authenticity and does not mean anything more than that. It really isn't the sign that would bother me but the person behind it. If the person wears it cuz he wants to reinact a major battle during WWII- fine be my guest but if you wear it because you believed that Hitler was a righteous man and you followed his believes as well, i would be very offended. Remember people it is just a symbol. I know it is now considered a symbol of hate and all but remember how that the wearer of the symbol doesnt always share the ideas that the symbol represents.

[trench_raider]

As for it adding to the reenactment, it isn't needed...take it and suck it up. Only the Waffen-SS, the brutal members of Hitler's armed forces were given the shoulder patch and they did not particpate in combat until the "Homeland" was invaded by American and British paratroopers in Operation Market-Garden on September 17, 1944. The standard Panzergrenadieres and Volksgrenadiers did not have the swastika anywhere on their clothing or helmets because

Actually, and this is not a flame, get your facts straight. Being factually incorrect simply weakens one's argument.

Waffen SS troops were engaged in every major campaign of the war with the sole exception of the North African Campaign. There were SS troops involved in the invasion of Poland in 1939 and (more to the point) there were over a dozen SS units of Battalion size or larger involved in the Normandy Campaign (D Day) between June and August 1944.

It should also be noted that there is a HUGE difference between the Waffen SS and the units that carried out the "final solution" and other large scale atrocities. The Waffen SS were an elite branch of the armed forced akin to US marines or British "Paras". Now don't get me wrong, Waffen SS units did commit war crimes (elements of the 1st SS Panzer Division murdered 80 or so American troops during the Battle of the Bulge) but not on the scale of "Einsatzgruppen" and other non-military formations.

As for insignia, EVERY German fighting man in all four branches of the armed forces (army, navy, airforce, and Waffen SS) wore an eagle clutching a swastika either on the left sleave (in the case of SS troops) or over the right breast pocket. (in all other cases). But don't take my word for it.....take a look at some period photographs.

My whole point is this: in a historical themed event someone has to portray the bad guys of history. Doing so does not in any way excuse or condone the crimes of the Nazi state. However getting llittle details like uniform insignia correct adds to the "flavor' of such an event.

"Trench Raider"
WW2 buff
AO RMOG BEOG

[Cadet2005]

Okay, the Waffen SS I am pretty sure are still Hitler's play toy, the elite divisions nobody can touch but hey, if you want to differ that's your call, the German command structure is actually not that clear cut.

But here is another reason why I HATE HATE HATE these D-Day scenarios: there is an aspect that is more than likely not considered yet was extremely common, especially along Utah Beach. These were the Ostruppen, the soldiers conscripted from the captured ranks of Russian and Czech forces and forced to serve under a Wermachdt leader. Now when the ALlies landed, they were under fire from the MG 34 MMG handed to these forces but once the leader went down, these conscripted soldiers surrendered. In fact, there are countless reports filed that they would shoot their leader simply so they could stop shooting at their "allies". This happened predominantly in the division defending Utah Beach (number slips away at the moment) but also amongst the 721st who defended Omaha Beach.

Thing is people claim that they "teach people" about these historical events yet they don't do squat...The waves in which you guys land probably aren't even correct. Everything was based on strategy and timing, and there is no way paintball can adequately show what it was that Ike and Montgomery were thinking. Nor does it probably talk about operations such as "Bigot" or the plans faking an attack further south at Brest. These are what made Operation: Overlord (which is technically correct since D-Day was the and is the name given to any operational landing day for Army or Marine) successful, not the landings themselves. How do you guys divide up the Allied forces with Candian, British, American, and French troops spread out with no way to intercommunicate except for orders from somewhere deep behind the lines or coming up on short in a jeep about a hour from the fighting? I have never played one but I can recognize that they are merely attempts to make guys feel like Audie L. Murphy or something (though he landed with the 3rd Infantry Division on the southern side of France) but in reality, just offend history to me for warfare is NOT a game...just look at the white crosses at Normandy intermingled by a Star of David and then maybe you will see you guys are lucky: you walk away. You're not teaching anything except being thrilled that there was a lrge battle America won, forget the thousands of casualties between the beaches and paratroops...you guys really want to make this authentic, put a Mauser versus a Garand...then maybe you'll come a bit closer.

[Sluggo]

Originally posted by FireViper
Like I said before a symbol only has the power you give it. Runestones and swastikas are not something to be scared of or angry at I'm willing to bet half the yahoos out there who glorify it don't even now it's orgins. The only reason people think of it as a symbol of hate (aside from the Holocaust) is because of dramtization in the years after at the time the US didn't even care about the Nazi issue. We wanted Japan. Now, why isn't the "rising sun" (which is technially the same thing as a swastika) seen on the Japanese flag villified in the sma why? Because it wasn't as dramatized. Hollywood felt the denomic Nazis were a better sotry which there were, but if you go back to the political films, satires, etc. all potrayed the Japanese as sub-human killers but it apparently never caught on entirely. You neglected to answer my questio in my post about seeing WW2 movies I'd like to see your thoughts on that.



Actually your wrong, we went after Germany first. Rooselvelt met with Churchhill at some conference(i forgot which) and decided that they would first take out Germany then go after Japan. Have you ever heard of the Bataan death march? that wouldnt of happened if Rooselvelt had kept his promises he made to MacArther and resupplied his troops on the phillipines, but instead all of the phillipines reinforcements went to Europe, leaving close to 78,000 to surrender to the japenese. And the Japenese way of thinking was that you should commit suicide rather then surrender, so they treated the americans like **** and killed many of them.

With the movie thing that is portraying history in a good way, this is just a game and like cadet2005 says they will portray it totally wrong just because you cant in paintball

Also cadet2005 what academy are you at?

[MINDofSIN]

Originally posted by Cadet2005
I have never played one but I can recognize that they are merely attempts to make guys feel like Audie L. Murphy or something (though he landed with the 3rd Infantry Division on the southern side of France) but in reality, just offend history to me for warfare is NOT a game...just look at the white crosses at Normandy intermingled by a Star of David and then maybe you will see you guys are lucky: you walk away. You're not teaching anything except being thrilled that there was a lrge battle America won, forget the thousands of casualties between the beaches and paratroops...you guys really want to make this authentic, put a Mauser versus a Garand...then maybe you'll come a bit closer.

Have you ever watched an Action Movie? Saving Private Ryan? Did that teach you things about war?

It's entertainment. Of course a paintball game won't be a perfect re-enactment of battles or a lesson in the morality of war.

[FireViper]

Originally posted by Sluggo


Actually your wrong, we went after Germany first. Rooselvelt met with Churchhill at some conference(i forgot which) and decided that they would first take out Germany then go after Japan. Have you ever heard of the Bataan death march? that wouldnt of happened if Rooselvelt had kept his promises he made to MacArther and resupplied his troops on the phillipines, but instead all of the phillipines reinforcements went to Europe, leaving close to 78,000 to surrender to the japenese. And the Japenese way of thinking was that you should commit suicide rather then surrender, so they treated the americans like **** and killed many of them.

With the movie thing that is portraying history in a good way, this is just a game and like cadet2005 says they will portray it totally wrong just because you cant in paintball

Also cadet2005 what academy are you at?

If you read my post closely. I didn't say anything about going after Japan or Germany first; I said the US didn't care greatly about them we wanted to take Japan which is true we didn't declare war on Germany until after they did so to us. Of course that doesn't mean it wouldn't have eventually happened but the decision to take germany first was simply a tactical one since they threatened more of our allies. Here's some more food for thought to set the mood of the period Japanese Americans would rounded up for their "protection" yet German POW's in America were treated most of the time very hospitable because they looked like your average white person and whether or not it is right that's the way it was. It just shows the threat analysis of our country at that time.

And I think theres nothing wrong with having fun while being authentic. Just because somone has fun at an event that is grim doesn't make them a bad person think of Civil War re-enactors thousands were killed in those battles yet those men have fun while showing their respect for the history. If I ever do attend a histrical scenario game which I haven't (I think the producer doesn't do them for this reason) I wouldn't claim to be teaching others about history that's not my job doesn't mean I have a lack of respect for them men who gave their lives in the real battles. You don't have to fight in a war to respect the men who do or have.