Why I like full auto...

[trench_raider]

Ok first off let me say I love my model 1451 Rainmaker with a retrofitted select fire board.

I'm also quite fortunate in that two of the three feilds I play at have not over-reacted to supposed safety concerns and still allow full auto fire.

many people (ironicly its often the people who defend full autos) make the statement that a full auto has no advantage over a electo gun with a light trigger. This is clearly nonsense. Full auto fire with a real firearm tends to be less accurate than fast semi-auto fire due to felt recoil. Felt recoil is almost non-existant in most paintball guns. On the the other hand, repeated trigger pulls, even with the lightest of electro triggers, tends to pull the weapon off it's aim. The net effect is that paintball guns behave the exact opposite of how a real firearm on full auto would: full auto is actually more acurate for sustained fire.

In addition, full auto fire is far easier to sustain while on the move than repeated semi-auto trigger pulls. Try to keep up steady area fire at a fast jog or greater if you don't believe me.

Finally, there is the psycological effect. For many players, newer ones more so than experienced ones, incoming full auto fire is intimidating. A sustained full auto burst is far more likely to suppress (or "tuck" for you folks who prefer PC terms to military ones) than a series of unsteady semi-auto shots. This is even more the case when the gun in question is extremely loud...like my beloved Rainmaker.

Granted, a good electro trigger can produce rates of fire a bit higher than most full auto guns. However, most players cannot sustain that rate of fire for any length of time and as noted above accuracy suffers with repeated trigger pulls.

Most of those who are opposed to full auto fire raise the spectre of "over-shooting". This is a valid point. However is one is careful and has the right training, this issue is becomes invalid. For example, I'm ex-military and am experienced in full auto fire. I also own three legal licensed full auto firearms. So as you might expect, I fire in short bursts rather than ripping the whole hopper and do other things that make my full auto both more effective and safer than someone less trained would. But it's not that hard of a skill to learn.

Finally I feel that most fields that ban full auto fire are doing so as a knee-jerk reaction to hysterical claims. I'm all for safety, but safety paranoia is a bad thing. Perhaps a more apropriate aproach would be to restrict full auto fire to mature players who have demonstrated proper skill and fire control?

An I of base here? What do you think?

Discuss...

"Trench Raider"
RMOG AO BEOG

[AK47]

a few accurate shows will keep a person in there bunker while not shooting more then u have to. Most fields don't allow auto so we have no experience

[Sudden Impact]

trench> you're right, full auto is fun...the thing about fields though, they dont have a choice whether they can use F/A or not...its up to the insurance company...whenever I use F/A..I have my max rof set on 8 or 9bps...if I use semi...I have it maxed out so I can hit about 14-15 bps...so I actually sling more paint with semi *l*

[DasBaldDog]

That is one of the most mature, detailed and sensible newbie arguments I have ever read. :)

[josh_mp5]

Hey what real full auto guns do you have and where do you live? because I am into real guns myself.

[Meph]

Originally posted by trench_raider

However is one is careful and has the right training, this issue is becomes invalid.

Wrong, in one mannor of speaking. Because you know who is going to buy the full auto capable markers? The new guy or people upgrading from their Talon.

These people don't know what training their trigger finger is, some barely even know what maintanence is! You are exmilitary, so of course you know. But this is paintball, and most people don't even know how to keep their finger off the trigger when just casually walking with their marker. Let alone remember barrel plugs and safetys.

Personally, full auto allowed or not, I don't care. I will do what the insurance allows me to. And for me, it's better that way. So I can have so much fun at Hell Survivors with my TWC pilgrimage. I know my SMiGs and Factory F/A are always allowed there. So for me, that makes it even that much more fun and enjoyful knowing that it's the only place I get to use it. I get psyched about it. If I could use full auto every day at every field, then it just wouldn't be the same.

[DasBaldDog]

Ahh... the Tippmann F/A.... takes me back.

*gets nostalgic*

[trench_raider]

That is one of the most mature, detailed and sensible newbie arguments I have ever read

I'm hardly a newbie...as careful reading of my post should reveal...but thanks anyway...

Hey what real full auto guns do you have and where do you live?

I'm not going to tell you were I live for obvious reasons....but lets just says it's a southern state that allows personal possesion of full autos as long as they are legally held under the "National Firearms Act" of 1934.

I own an MP40, an M1918 BAR, and an MG08 on a sledge mount.

Other non-machingun NFA restricted items I have are a model "B" Ithica Autoburgler, and a tricked out Remington 1100 with a 14" barrell that I keep for home defence.

Yes it's all legal....

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[Sudden Impact]

aahhhh...BAR...I want one...I would like several guns from world war 2 though...

thompson sub, m1 garand, bar and of course, a luger ;)

[DasBaldDog]

Regardless of how long you've been playing...

I consider the statement "I like FA cause it's fun" to be a very newbiliscious statement.

Also, consider that I thought the remark was a very well thought-out and mature statement. Just it seemed to have long-distant newbie roots.

Hey, I love F/A just as much as the next guy, but I realize the importance of using it, only for fun and not for competition.

[trench_raider]

aahhhh...BAR...I want one...I would like several guns from world war 2 though...


If you have a clean criminal record, live in a gun-friendly state, and can get local law enforcement to sign off on you, then buy one!

Of course the going price last time I checked for a transferable m1918 was about $12,000....plus the $200 tax stamp for the BATF.
;)

Also, consider that I thought the remark was a very well thought-out and mature statement. Just it seemed to have long-distant newbie roots.


Thanks once again...I tried to give well thought out arguments rather than simply saying "FU11 2U70 R0XX0R2 D3Wd!!" :D

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[DasBaldDog]

Lol....

[AK47]

Originally posted by DasBaldDog
newbiliscious
Wat type of word is that?why don't we just call full auto "newbilishscious mode"?:eyes:

[Sudden Impact]

why does everyone think F/A is a newbie mode? people complain about F/A yet they do trigger jobs to fire as fast as possible in semi...if the board is capped at a certain ROf...whats the difference?

[Forest Spyder]

First order of business......Trench, you might be one of the only people who is sensible and responsible about usage of full auto. However, Full auto is not a good thing for paintball. For example, would a new person to the game go play a game against some idiot who just sits back and hoses you down with paint for like minutes upon end, while he can't really do anything about it with his semi, then come back and play again? HELL NO
That person would say "forget this, this is stupid", and go off and do something else with their time. And this is in a scenario where the guy with F/A doesn't just hose him down, shooting him at least 15 times in succession, and eliminating him.

You know why full auto is used on the modern battlefield?
BECAUSE YOU NEED TO KILL THAT F---ER DOWN RANGE BEFORE HE KILLS YOU

This is a sport, not some sick rendition of war.

In conclusion, the deal with F/A is about playing like gentlemen and not hurting people.

[Sudden Impact]

some idiot who just sits back and hoses you down with paint for like minutes upon end,


they do that anyway...they're called backplayers *lol*

[The Terminator]

The psychological argument can be taken both ways... The new player who runs into the guy with the tricked out Matrix who is firing at him around 16bps in semi will be just as frustrated and scared, if not more frustrated and scared than if someone were just using the F/A on a Spyder Flash or something around 10-12bps. If you limit the bps to under 15, I don't find it to be too much of a big deal.

The issue of bonus balling is the one that makes the most sense here, however. Obviously, no one wants to get hit by more than 3 paintballs, but when firing in an 11bps burst, they'll probably get hit by a few more than 3 paintballs. However, I don't see why they wouldn't also be bonus balled by someone shooting a string of paint in semi @ 11bps. Obviously, the paintballs follow eachother, and they take a certain amount of time to reach their target. We can assume that the shooter will keep firing until he sees at least one break. This means that the rest of the string that he fired will most likely land on the person, thus resulting in nearly the same amount of bonus balling as the guy with the F/A.

The argument here is that the guy in semi would stop firing, just as the guy with the F/A would. Obviously, the guy with the F/A has the highest chance of hitting the guy more than the semi-guy, as the human reaction time is around .10-.35 seconds, so in the time it takes him to realize a ball broke, his finger is still on the trigger, unleashing 1-3 extra balls on top of the hypothetical string of balls that already hit the guy. The guy with the semi would have an easier time to stop firing a burst as he is constantly pulling the trigger, and could probably stop earlier than the guy with the F/A. This, of course, assumes that the target is standing out in the open, and that all the balls are perfectly concentrated onto just the target, and do not hit anywhere else. If they are not perfectly concentrated, the chance of bonus-balling the other person is greatly decreased.

[Forest Spyder]

Originally posted by Sudden Impact
they do that anyway...they're called backplayers *lol*

Don't be stupid.
Honestly. You missed the entire point of my post.

[Azn_gansta]

Originally posted by The Terminator
The psychological argument can be taken both ways...
:laugh: Shut up

[Urban-Coyote]

wouldn`t sustained f/a cause inconsistencies with accuracy(what there is of it) and lose or velocity?

[The Terminator]

Any form of sustained rapid fire would lose more and more consistency and accuracy as time elapses due to gas build-ups within the barrel, and recoil, reguardless of whether it was done in F/A or semi, so yea, a sustained f/a burst would definately lose accuracy and consistency.

[AK47]

This great debate turn newbilishscious in a mater of acouple hours

[Sudden Impact]

how am I being stupid? if a semi gun shoots just as fast as a f/a gun...and the guy is sitting back spraying...there is no difference...I played back in one tourny...and about every 5 minutes of play, I would go through half a case of paint...now that is spraying!

[WYRViNX]

Originally posted by Sudden Impact
they do that anyway...they're called backplayers *lol* :laugh:, I thought it was a good comeback. As for FA guns, only if everybody has 'em, then again, I probably still wouldn't play unless they were capped <9bps. I don't want to give some other spooge the same advantage I've obtained after 4 years of trigger work!;) Unless we're doing team drills of course...

[Cadet2005]

Automatic fire from real weapons or paintball guns has one extensive purpose: to scare the hell outta the opposition and put their heads down because while they're taking a leak in their pants in fear, they can't/won't usually shoot meaning you can advance a converging squad up and take them out. Full auto is fun to tinker with and in certain extreme situations it may be warranted but in my view, there are several concerns to yield (and I have a RT on my Tippmann and have had experience with the M60LMG and M249 and M16A2 so I know a little bit about auto fire and tactics from both worlds):

A) with full auto, you're putting ten to twenty shots easily into the air at a time (for the most part anyway) and that means if two diverge on the same target or more, you have what I affectionately call overkill. I don't like overkill. First of all, it is pointless. It is a game of elimination, not making sure the guy is down bleeding to death from multiple penetrating shots. Second of all, you can effectively get a guy out with controlled semi-auto shots, similar to that of the M1 and M16 (on semi-auto)...patience. Granted accuracy is not as good but then you take only the shots that give you a better base-hit chance, kinda makes sense, the same principle applies in real combat as well: shoot at that which you can potentially hit or open an opportunity to hit.

B) Suppression fire is completely psychological. If you hear a round slamming into your bunker, you know you're bracketed and you will probably either just fire back every so often or sit tight and wait for an opening. With full auto going, this becomes pointless because once he stops firing because he burns through his ammo, you make your move. That's why the best tactic to taking out somebody with FA is to flank them while reloading after they spend ammo at a group in front.

C) Full auto is not exactly the most accurate of fire forms. Firing quickly in semi auto shot groups is better because you are essentially controlling your fire, not letting the tides of nature control it...with full auto, not all that gas will dissipate in the barrel (like Terminator said) and will cause a curveball effect on the ball...not fun if you're trying to hit a bunker to keep him pinned down because now you're unpredictable and soon you might accidentally open a window and "pop" you're now the one being bracketed.

One more thing that everybody is thinking is true: machine-guns don't and are not designed to kill, they are simply designed to scare the heck out of guys...their range is often limited when firing to about 250 yards and that is not even guaranteed. Just a real quick technical and experience note. If you need full auto to feel powerful or have fun, you need your head examined...if you need it to hit something then you need your accuracy checked...I know paintballs aren't that accurate, but I never have problems with taking seven or eight guys out with 2X to maybe 2.5X that many shots...it is called "compensate"...

[DasBaldDog]

Yes... Very Newbaliscious.

[natopotato]

i think its obvious why FA should not be allowed..... cuz its unfair to other players .....


it would mean the guy with the most money to waste on paint wins.... ehh [its kinda already a lil like that but any way]

common now if u can pop out aim one shot then send a string to follow without a second look its not fair to the players without electro's

jeez im getting a cocker and

I DONT LIKE TO SHOOT ALOT OF PAINT!


it would be anoying if every lil brat kid whos mom bought him an e99 and halo b & 10000 fricking balls came out and started goin full auto on every body......

maby i have a lil anger about when the above happened last week... grrr
:mad: jerk :rolleyes:

any way continue arguing

[DasBaldDog]

Then by your reasoning, ALL guns should be limited to the speed of the average rate of fire of the slowest shooter that is in the game.

[Rugrat]

Since this thread is getting out off hand anyway I might as well join in.

First on the subject at hand,
Full Autos, RT triggers, 3 round burst, lets be honest they all can get a ROF that is just plain silly. Who cares, if your that afraid of being hit by paint that a high ROF scares you then maybe you should switch to stock class because the ROF are just going to continue to increase like they have been over the past 10 years. Just a simple fact of life.

Second,
A few things to add to what Cadet has said. M-60s where GPMGs (General Purpose Machine Guns), not Light Machine Guns and have been replaced by the M-240 GPMG. GPMGs are more than effective out past 250m. I can honestly say that I have "walked" rounds in to pop up "Ivans" at 800m using the bipod on an M-60.

[DasBaldDog]

Rugrat,

True,

But I much prefer popping "Ivans" at 1200+ yrds with one shot with the Walther I used to use. (back in the bdu days of my life)

[Cadet2005]

Who cares about a general purpose gun, there are LMG variants availiable...if it is portable enough for one man to oeprate, the DoD designates it as an LMG. Putting a bipod on it makes it stationary, and ANY gun is more accurate from a stationary position, that is why many sniper rifles include a bipod: it is called the supported firing position.

As for not enjoying the getting hit again and again, if you think I am weak, you're wrong...I just don't see why you need to endure that when a simple one frigging shot would suffice. If you have a new player out there renting a gun to see if he enjoys it, lighting his butt up on full auto is not exactly a good way to reinforce the idea that this is a game and not a butchering phenom.

[Sudden Impact]

its real conveinent to think that one shot will suffice...even if it hits them and breaks, most people wont call themselves out...my main reason for liking a high ROF is they cant cheat when you use it...if you paint them they cant cheat, if you mark them, they can...and I do believe this is why most people like a high rate of fire...


BTW...I dont overshoot people, so I dont even want to hear it...I put about 3 or so shots into someone when I bunker or flank them...

[Cadet2005]

First round breaks, two more hit: that is overshooting...one would suffice, if they don't call themselves out then perhaps you need to light them up next game but assuming they won't takes on this "guilty until proven innocent" motif and I don't think that it is appropriate. You are not trying to kill the guy, just paint him up. It's PAINT, not blood and guts to save your own hide. Some people don't call themselves out, tough beans, adjust, compensate in my opinion. But nobody is complaining about a high ROF, just full auto...

[Sudden Impact]

I dont view high ROF and full auto as much different...if someone is going to spray a bunker in FA they'll do it in semi too...I think people need to quit whining so damn much and just enjoy the game...

[Rugrat]

Whoa Cadet, stand down troop, I wasn't tying to say that you, or any one else, can't handle getting hit by paint. I am saying that from the time I first played paintball in 1993 the ROF of markers has steadily increased. This trend of higher and higher ROF shows no sign of slowing down and is just something that the players of tomorrow will have to deal with or play stock class. After a point it doesn't really matter if it is full auto, reactive trigger, 3 round burst, or fine tuned semi race guns they all have such a high ROF that it doesn't make that much difference.

I don't know what type of M-60 you guys play with (Seems like you said your a Marine Cadet) but the standard M-60 issued to regular army units was a GPMG with a folding bi-pod on the barrel. Similar to the bi-pod on the M-240 and M-249 that are in the inventory today.

[AK47]

cadet, first of all FA is designed like you said to cover but also to spray a field and take everyone down.

Second you can't say a machine gun isn't designed to kill because it is. The ammo used determines the range and accuracy. An unloaded gun pointed at someone will scare the hell out of them, I don't see how weapons are meant to scare people when your shooting people.

[Spartan 2]

I have a new rainmaker my-self, but I only have semi only, and I hate the fact I can not use F/a. My brother has a spyder flash that I have used. I always play with it on F/a. I just keep the ROF down to about what I normally fire at,10 bps. Usually I just fire 1 shot at a time even with the F/a on, but at the times when I am doing cover fire or charging, I can keap a constant ROF while of the move. That is the only reason I like F/A, because it keeps the Rof constant.
That is also why I am looking into getting a select fire board for my new rainmaker. Any one have one that hates F/A give me a ring and we can trade for a price?

[Urban-Coyote]

maybe ya all should forget about f/a and a high Rof and just get a pump marker.

m16s ain`t f/a anyways, C7s are though.

[Cadet2005]

Rugrat, wasn't aiming at you, just beating down any possible twists somebody might put on it.

As for me, I am Army, and the M60 is taken out of commission that we used otuside of a bipod fixed of a modified version of the old one, the GPMG is now the M249...I have never heard of the M240 but that may or not mean anything...I personally prefer the M16/203 combo, that was my tool of the trade.

Also, AK, the caliber of the M249 is the 5.56mm round, effective range is approximately 800 yards at max. You won't hit diddly with them, yes they will kill but that is NOT their primary purpose. Look at the Vulcan guns mounted on aircraft nowadays, they fire thousands upon thousands of rounds and rarely hit anything outside of the one in every 1,000 shots, not good odds, especialyl if YOU'RE footing the bill for ammo expenditure, and just think, paintballs are even less accurate.

M16s are full auto, it is the M16A1, still in use by some Air Force and Army units. The A2 is select fire and while still used today, many older soldiers and special service men use the A1 because of various reasons.

[Rugrat]

Cadet,
FYI time
http://www.specwarnet.com/kit/m240.htm

and M-4s are full auto also.

[DasBaldDog]

Can we try and make this more about paintball?

[Cadet2005]

For paintball, I ask the question: why do people who don't like being hit three, four, five, or six times by a guy feeling the urge to rock-and-roll a bunch of whiners? I get hit by hot paintballs all the time at close range (our field doesn't chrono most of the guns and they often fire hot I find, have the scars and bruises to show)...point is that I don't whine because I haven't got it or because I get hit by it, I whine because there is no reason to go through that much paint. I know, it isn't my spot to say "oh, you're wasting paint" or whatever, but it is one of the things that irks me (I have also always been conservative with expenditure, be it hunting, fishing, or paintballing) because I see guys who achieve this high rate of fire, go through about a hopper and two pods and maybe hit once or twice. Seems highly/grossly inefficicent to me and kind of closer to a power trip than a potential asset. Another primary concern are those who are "newbies" out there who are either renting or just gettnig started, it isn't exactly fun to them to be outclassed by a guy with money to throw on paint. I don't know, maybe that's just old fashioned thought...all I know is if somebody goes at me with full auto, they are the guy I target the rest of that game because they do present a challenge and a chance to exploit skill.

[Alpha1]

Full Auto should not be allowed in competition. Everyone says "But back men do the same thing!" Those back men have spend hours upon hours of playing, practicing, and perfecting their fingers and triggers to be able to rip at 13 bps. Everyone thinks they can do about 10. Not true. Even on the smallest pull, it is EXTREMELY hard to pull 12 or more. Most pro players go around this. Backmen maybe a bit more. But it takes this little thing called SKILL to do it. Using Full Auto takes this SKILL factor out of the game, making anyone an incredible threat.

Even if limited, what is to stop a rich newbie from setting down a box of paint at a bunker and just holding down the trigger and refilling as needed? I have basically seen it happen, and it's not pretty. Granted, he gets out, but after taking out about 4 people by just firing into a lane that is crossed often. F/A is very unbalanced, and should only be used in SCENARIO games and backyard play. Any other and it just defeats the purpose of playing.

[Meph]

Who else saw the Two Towers? I thought that was a great movie.

And I got in for free! Yay! Saved me 9 bucks. I was lucky to even get in, every movie before 4:15 sold out, every one after was sold out. And they had 3 seperate theaters out of the.... I think 6-8 that were showing this movie. It's going to gross a bundle.

[Rugrat]

No offense, but you guys are preaching to the choir about the evils of the world. The truth is that more markers are going to switch over to electronic fire control boards, reactive triggers, or super hair triggers with millimeter travels. Just look at the last 5 years and all that has come out so far.

The "Super ROF Genie" has been released from the bottle and he is Not going to go back in it. Does it really make a difference if your holding down a trigger for second, or pulling a mechanically assisted trigger a hundred times a second. It's still a ton of paint in the air and there isn't that much skill difference between the two. Add in that more and more markers are coming with this option at a lower and lower price tag, and what do you get? A future filled with 6 cubic yards of airborne paint.

The only saving grace will be people like Cadet, myself, and most of the people on these boards who feel that there really isn't a need to be shooting long strings of paint at 10+ bps in a normal rec game and will specifically target those who chronically break this unwritten "norm".

Does this mean that there is no place in Rec ball for full auto? Hell no! At times full auto fire is more than welcome and appreciated by those on the receiving end. Like when would being on the receiving end of full auto fire be fun? When the other team is trying to break out of an ambush or doing an Australian peal back. With common sense full auto is just another improvement to the game. It's not going to go away, and if your dead set against it there is always stock class. Otherwise use your heads, if you can shoot super ROF do you need to shoot that way all the time? For those facing high ROF, it really isn't that bad to get hit and more than likely it will miss you anyway, suck it up and drive on. Most of all let's continue to have fun.

[Cadet2005]

I agree with you for the most part Rugrat, when I get a group pinned down in what we call the crossfire from hell at our local field (my friend and I are infamous for it) a lot of guys go bananas trying to bust out and many will switch to full auto on their E-99's (the most common electro out there usually) and try and put us behind cover. To me, that is okay because that is a situation where if you don't, your moment of opportunity is gone (and in all it doesn't last long because we pick them off pretty quickly). I do not feel it should be allowed in speedball or tournaments simply because it is close quarers and especially for tournaments, it is supposed to be a demonstration of skill and throwing paint every which way is not exactly the best skill in my opinion...but in rec ball, I don't care, I get the Rebel we use as a secondary loaner gun go bananas whenver it wants, they pay for the paint so what do I care?

[trench_raider]

Jeez! I go away for two days and while I'm gone my little thread explode!

One more post and I'll drop this subject. It all boils down to responsible usage. If a ref sees a players usuing full auto in an unsafe way, he should be stopped. It is also the responsibility of the player to educate himself on proper fire control skills before he switches his gun to f/a mode.

And.....

That is also why I am looking into getting a select fire board for my new rainmaker. Any one have one that hates F/A give me a ring and we can trade for a price

I'll do you one better. Go here and check out a '99 select fire board.
http://www.samuraiforce.net/rainmaker/

It has a full auto mode at 9 bps and only runs $25. It also simply snaps into place on a model 1451.

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG

[Spartan 2]

Sweet man thanks, you are the third guy who told me about that site since I posted. I plan to get the '99 board, BMW double trigger, and the front block set up, plus I am going to wire a on/of switch to the battery myself. With all this that I am getting I think I will just pay the shipping charges and send in my gun and have then install the goods for free. But first I need the money.............Christmas time..................

[trench_raider]

I have basically seen it happen, and it's not pretty. Granted, he gets out, but after taking out about 4 people by just firing into a lane that is crossed often

Heh. Good for him. That's called a "machinegun fire lane" and is a very realistic use of full auto fire.

But wait.....I forgot that many of today's players dont like to admit that paintball began as, and to a large degree still is, a skirmish wargame.

Sweet man thanks, you are the third guy who told me about that site since I posted.

Your welcome. You will find Kevin, the fellow who runs the RMOG superstore to be very personable and quick to ship...as well as having a good selection and great prices.

"Trench Raider"

RMOG AO BEOG