barrel honing

[taso_winforce]

There was a little dispute earlier whether or not 2 microns is smoother than 6 microns. well i did some searching and found out 2 microns is better. Thanks mackdaddy for the information. Now for those of you who don't know what honing and microns are I'll tell you. Honing is the process which makes barrels smooth. Microns determine how smooth it is. obviously i already said 2 microns is smoother than 6 microns. So if you have a barrel that is honed to a 2 micron finish it will obviously be better(meaning more accurate) than a barrel honed to 6 microns. now i'm not saying barrels that aren't honed to 6 microns are bad because the dye boomstick is honed to a 6 micron surface and it is a very good barrel. If I haven't lost you yet keep reading. Okay so what barrels have a better honing? I've found the honing of some barrels and i will post it here. If you have any more post and tell me and I will add them. I only have a few so i might have to start emailing and calling companys and asking them what their barrels are honed to. without further talking here are the barrels that i know the honing of.

Custom Products- 6 to 10 micron fluctuation

Powerlyte Sceptor- 6 micron surface(may fluctuate)

Evil pipe- 2 to 5 micron fluctuation

Freak system- 6 to 10 micron fluctuation ( I would suspect that all the smart parts barrels are the same but i don't know for sure)

dye barrels- 6 to 10 micron fluctuation (dye says the boomstick is a 6 micron finish.)

Longbow barrel- 2 micron finish

Equation barrels- 4 micron finish

If you agree/disagree with any of this let me know. If you know any information on other barrels post and i'll add it.

[Zophiel]

I don't fully understand how people could think that a surface honed to a tolerance of six microns is smoother than a surface honed to a tolerance of two microns? It seems pretty obvious to me that a 2 micron honed surface is smoother.

[cocker kid 2k2]

I would be very interested to see where you got this information, please post a link or something. I've always thought it the other way around.

[egloskerry]

Alright, I'll clear this up. First off, a micron is one millionth of an inch, or 0.000001", or 1 x 10 to the -6. The symbol is µin. Now, 6 microns is .000006", and 2 microns is .000002". From here on it's just simple math. 6 microns is only 4 microns away from being .00001", or one millinch, which is larger than a micron. If you want to imagine a micron, take an inch and divide it into 1000000 parts. One of those parts is a micron. A surface (ie the inside of a barrel) honed to two microns would mean that there are no obtrusions that rise more than two microns above the surface. I hope this helps.

[NcicHit]

Originally posted by egloskerry
Alright, I'll clear this up. First off, a micron is one millionth of an inch, or 0.000001", or 1 x 10 to the -6. The symbol is µin. Now, 6 microns is .000006", and 2 microns is .000002". From here on it's just simple math. 6 microns is only 4 microns away from being .00001", or one millinch, which is larger than a micron. If you want to imagine a micron, take an inch and divide it into 1000000 parts. One of those parts is a micron. A surface (ie the inside of a barrel) honed to two microns would mean that there are no obtrusions that rise more than two microns above the surface. I hope this helps.

Like it gonna make you shoot better. How about using some Rain X or Armson barrel cleaner. I don't think the paintball much cares.

Iraq should of listened to a Bush.

[taso_winforce]

Originally posted by NcicHit


Like it gonna make you shoot better. How about using some Rain X or Armson barrel cleaner. I don't think the paintball much cares.

Iraq should of listened to a Bush. what do you think makes viewloader barrels bad? Brass eagle barrels? stock barrels? any kingman barrel? Also i added the equation barrels.

[PB_Rhyno]

A couple things to consider:

The first shot down a clean barrel leaves enough shell residue and mold release in the bore to all but eliminate any varience from one brand to another. Alignment is a much more important factor.

Case in point:
Lapco barrels don't top any bore smoothness charts, but are known for their accuracy.

Another example:
J&J ceramic barrels vary in bore due to the way the ceramic is applied to the metal. Even though the ceramic surface is "slick" in the same way Teflon is, the surface "feels" rough compaired to some higher-end barrels, but they're also considered accurate by most people.

Last but not least:
If you have access to any of the different types of equipment used to measure surface finish down to microns, try this sometime:
1. Take the reading of a new-clean bore.
2. Use a swab and some mothers, semichrome or Flitz to "clean" the bore, and take a new reading.

Note the difference in surface finish numbers after swabbing even hard metals like Ti and stainless steel.

Don't buy into the hype of a few microns difference as much as the manufacturers would like you too.

[taso_winforce]

Originally posted by PB_Rhyno
A couple things to consider:

The first shot down a clean barrel leaves enough shell residue and mold release in the bore to all but eliminate any varience from one brand to another. Alignment is a much more important factor.

Case in point:
Lapco barrels don't top any bore smoothness charts, but are known for their accuracy.

Another example:
J&J ceramic barrels vary in bore due to the way the ceramic is applied to the metal. Even though the ceramic surface is "slick" in the same way Teflon is, the surface "feels" rough compaired to some higher-end barrels, but they're also considered accurate by most people.

Last but not least:
If you have access to any of the different types of equipment used to measure surface finish down to microns, try this sometime:
1. Take the reading of a new-clean bore.
2. Use a swab and some mothers, semichrome or Flitz to "clean" the bore, and take a new reading.

Note the difference in surface finish numbers after swabbing even hard metals like Ti and stainless steel.

Don't buy into the hype of a few microns difference as much as the manufacturers would like you too.
It does matter. If it didn't stock barrels would be just as good as aftermarket barrels. putting something like rain x or polish will leave stuff behind and will change the bore size a little bit resulting in ball breaks and your accuracy will go down. it isn't all hype.

[PB_Rhyno]

Stock barrels on most markers suffer from misalignment problems, and inconsistent bore size from end to end.


Rain-X or Armson barrel treatment changing bore size?
I won't comment how silly that statement is other than to say the average case of "premium" paint is going have balls that vary as much as .006 from largest to smallest in a single case.

Even if you somehow managed to match every ball you carried into a game within .001, and then matched bore to paint, halfway into a 10 minute game the temperature and humidity would make ball to bore size much less than "perfect".

If a +/- .001 difference doesn't make a noticeable performance difference, do you really think a .000006 difference will?

Hype.

[taso_winforce]

Originally posted by PB_Rhyno
Stock barrels on most markers suffer from misalignment problems, and inconsistent bore size from end to end.


Rain-X or Armson barrel treatment changing bore size?
I won't comment how silly that statement is other than to say the average case of "premium" paint is going have balls that vary as much as .006 from largest to smallest in a single case.

Even if you somehow managed to match every ball you carried into a game within .001, and then matched bore to paint, halfway into a 10 minute game the temperature and humidity would make ball to bore size much less than "perfect".

If a +/- .001 difference doesn't make a noticeable performance difference, do you really think a .000006 difference will?

Hype. the comment about the rain-x was mostly about leaving junk in your barrel. now think about this. what barrel is better? the longbow with 2 micron finish or the cp with a 6-10 micron finish? the longbow is.

[llSmithll]

i like the fact that they did do the micron test, 1) its not about accuracy, its quality. ever seen a dye ultralite? some barrels might be somewhat accuate, but not made with quality (cocker kid knows what im talkin about) and that its smooth..cause they took time to mill it. 2)its shiney, and hey, cant go wrong with shiney things

[egloskerry]

I did forget to mention that a few microns are not going to make much of a difference with paintballs. It will in precision machining, such as in a HK PSG-1 ($10,000 sniper rifle) or aircraft parts, but not in a $100 barrel. Sure, it may increase velocity by maybe a picoinch if at all, but it is mainly marketing. Just put some teflon or silicon lube down the barrel (just like you oil the barrel of a firearm) before you play, and those microns won't make a difference.

Taso, the Longbow barrel is better because of the machining process used. It gives it a more uniform cylindrical structure. Also, the aluminum alloy used may be of different composition. Such a small anomly in machining will not make a noticeable difference.

[PB_Rhyno]

We can go back and forth on this and not accomplish a single thing.

The ball going down the barrel is going to leave as much of a deposit from the friction between the shell and bore as any bore treatment that I'm aware of will.

The longbow is better in YOUR opinion. There's been no unbiased-independent testing to prove scientifically that either one is better than the other.
I'm not saying YOUR opinion is wrong, but your reason for thinking either one is better or worse is flawed.
If a product performs to your expectations, that's all that matters anyway.

There's a lot of things that factor into why a Longbow may or may not be better than a CP. They don't share the same design, construction, materials, manufacturing process, or price.

If surface finish mattered to the point that a 1 micron finish offered a significant performance advantage over a 6 micron finish, we'd all be using 1 micron barrels because every manufacturer would have to meet that standard or lose sales.

[cocker kid 2k2]

Originally posted by llSmithll
its not about accuracy, its quality. ever seen a dye ultralite? some barrels might be somewhat accuate, but not made with quality (cocker kid knows what im talkin about)

Unfortunatly thats the only thing I understand in this thread :|

[TiPB]

Actually the finish makes a big difference in the bore of a barrel. Try taking a .695 ball and shooting it through a .684 any honed barrel and then try it with a longbow and you will see the diffenece.

[taso_winforce]

what don't you get cocker kid?

[cocker kid 2k2]

Originally posted by taso_winforce
what don't you get cocker kid?


Lets use the ultralite as an example since I have a lot of experience with it. If I put an ultralite on say an impulse, I know I can get it so it shoots perfectly accurate and doesn't curve the whole time its in the air. And it has 6 micron honing, so what could a 2 micron honed barrel possibly have to offer, if one that is honed at 6 shoots as accurate as possible already?

[taso_winforce]

Well dye is a very good company and they sell a lot of good products. Now if a company is willing to hone their barrels down to 2 microns don't you think that they are going to pay attention to everything else as well? I suppose it doesn't really matter but i do know that the longbow that has a 2 micron surface is an oustanding barrel and the pipe which is 2-5 micron surface is also a very good barrel.

[TiPB]

the longbow is not honed, that's what makes it so different

[irrific]

Its not only the finish of microns you have to look at if its perfectly round and or if its not tapered at all (meaning both sides of the barrel is not the same diameter) its more critical having a round barrel and not having tapered sides the finish of course comes last. most company's now don't even hone they just run a steel ball threw the barrel witch is totally crap thing to do and they do it cause its fast and cheap. Honing is the true way of making a decent barrel there is no other way.

and a note on the freak inserts and anyone else that makes them out of aluminum, is totally crap cause honing something that thin makes it come out all warped so take a pair calipers and measure the inserts and see how warped they really are. honing is a tricky process

hope this makes sense? :eek:

[taso_winforce]

Originally posted by irrific
Its not only the finish of microns you have to look at if its perfectly round and or if its not tapered at all (meaning both sides of the barrel is not the same diameter) its more critical having a round barrel and not having tapered sides the finish of course comes last. most company's now don't even hone they just run a steel ball threw the barrel witch is totally crap thing to do and they do it cause its fast and cheap. Honing is the true way of making a decent barrel there is no other way.

and a note on the freak inserts and anyone else that makes them out of aluminum, is totally crap cause honing something that thin makes it come out all warped so take a pair calipers and measure the inserts and see how warped they really are. honing is a tricky process

hope this makes sense? :eek: Your right about it needing to be perfectly round. I emailed some companys asking about their micron finish and palmer said that honing didn't get it smooth enough for them so after they honed the barrels they did stuff by hand to make it smoother. Also a differnet company. I can't remember which one. Said that they don't hone their barrels because the smoother the barrel the more friction their will be thus making the ball slower. of course if it goes a little slow all you have to do is turn your velocity up.

[Radius]

Perfectly round? Aren't Palmer barrels oblong or something like that?

I have a Cocker and I use the stock barrel. I've tried aftermarket barrels but so far I haven't been too impressed. I can shoot long with it too, I've taken people out at over 100 feet before.

I have never been convinced that barrels make much of a difference. The best, and I mean absolute best barrel I've ever seen was one from an old Splatmaster Rapide. Very short and more accurate then just about any off-the-shelf marker you can get nowadays.

[taso_winforce]

go try more stock barrels and then you'll be convinced.