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No_DAMN_NAMES
05-04-2003, 12:04 PM
Not according to CEO of Diablo, Craig Miller.

Q. There are a lot of people out there that think paint is just too expensive. What goes into making a paintball and are the prices justified?

A. This answer may get me a good deal of flak, but it is reality. Here goes:

In the face of significant increases, in the raw materials used in making paintball shells, fills, packaging, and fuel (for transport), Industry-wide, I'm not convinced that today's prices are even sustainable.

What goes into the making of consistent paintballs would absolutely blow most people's minds. It's not "just a machine"costing nearly a million dollars, like most people think. There are a whole FLEET of machines, and the computerization to run them fills a room. The support equipment is truly the key, and it takes up a huge amount of space, expertise, experience, highly trained technical staff, and cubic dollars to get it all operating correctly, consistently.

Our Industrial Manufacturing Air Management systems are larger than one of the houses I lived in when I was in college – and we have more than one of them. These immense air handling systems are responsible for only a part of the BIG difference between our own, very consistent paintballs, and the mystery bargain brands on the market, because the air handling systems keep the drying air within NASA-like specifications for consistency, humidity/dryness, temperature, flow rates, etc.

There are scientific industrial boilers that produce staggering volumes within remarkably narrow variances. These are bigger than some Sport Utility vehicles. There is a giant I-beam super-structure in our factory, built just to support the massive weight of the technologically advanced, high-capacity chillers in the physical-plant section of our new facility. The multiple mixing tanks are big enough to hold a Rave inside them. These mixers are as big as some small Paintball Stores.

And I'm skipping over a whole bunch of the infrastructural componentry in these departments. The pumping stations, piping, metering devices, valving sytems, and related equipment that is used just to bring the raw materials into the pre-production department would fill more than one semi truck. In addition, there are scientific color mixers, cleaning rooms, a fully developed high-tech scientific Laboratory and staff. The packaging area alone is bigger than some smaller indoor Paintball Fields. If you took everything out of the Shipping and Receiving department, you would have enough room to fly gas-powered radio-controlled model aircraft.

Then add the costs of the raw materials that every Paintball Manufacturer must buy as ingredients for the product. These raw materials are traded like commodities, so the prices fluctuate based on supply and demand. Many of the items on this long list of ingredients are going UP IN PRICE right now. The budget required for raw materials purchasing is totally staggering. Throw in a staff of almost 200 people, including production, packaging, legal, sales and marketing, administrative and accounting departments, and a fully equipped art department. Add in a full-fleet Trucking Company, plus their staff and drivers. Then add in the costs of the offices and staff of your Distribution Company which is, for the bigger distributors like Diablo Direct, PMI, or National, at least another 30 to 50 people on the payroll, plus costs of warehouses, forklifts, boxes, computer systems, spread all over the country, and in some cases, the whole world. This is all BEFORE you spend so much as a dollar on advertising. The larger Companies spend over a million a year just on ads and promotion, so that people can know that they exist.

So, now you can see why it never ceases to amaze me that people think paintballs are too expensive, especially when you consider that the cost of playing rental-style* Rec-Ball at a typical field for a day has never increased. Yet the cost of paint for serious shooters has dropped a TON over the years! But as the guns get faster, people choose to shoot and spend more and more. Here's what I mean:

Year Average cost per ball Average Cost per "day of play" % change
1982 30 to 50 CENTS !$!?&*$ $39.00 -- 55.00 0
1985 25 CENTS !!!!$%&?@! $39.00 -- 55.00 0
1988 10 – 12 cents per ball $39.00 -- 55.00 0
1993 5 - 10 cents per ball $39.00 -- 55.00 0
1997 ~ 4 cents per ball $39.00 -- 55.00 0
2001 ~ 2 *½ -- 3 ½ cents per ball $39.00 -- 55.00 0

So, retail Paintball prices, in general, are ONE TENTH of their prior cost from 19 years ago

Obviously, it's normal to wish for prices to go even lower. But the fact is, this market has matured to a point where there are a whole bunch of competing manufacturers, trying to at least break even, and in some cases failing, and prices have dropped SO LOW that our sources confirm that some of the lowest priced suppliers are LOSING between $50,000.00 to $100,000.00 per month--that's in U.S. Dollars. That's not likely to be sustained for long.

So, again, it's fun to wish for lower prices, and we all wish for a technological manufacturing breakthrough that will change this whole equation. But until then, I believe that the current crop of bargain basement "seconds"based suppliers have developed their business plans with very bad misinformation, and created a nightmare based on losing money. That's why I'm not convinced that today's prices are even sustainable.

http://www.pbstar.com/interview/craig-miller/

X_Brolly_X
05-04-2003, 12:10 PM
Ya well... Whatever, its still to expensive...

thepeashooter
05-04-2003, 12:20 PM
I think it will eventually go down in price even more once, it becomes a lot more popular, anad they can have huge mass production. faster more efficient machines ect... but for now it is probably as cheap as it will be for a while.

I dont think its really that expensive at all. It kinda helps. it keeps all these players that just sit there and do nothing but shoot as much paint as they possibly can.

Blacksheep
05-04-2003, 12:23 PM
I remember my days when paint ran $1.00 per ball...oh...wait...nvm...I can't remember the day when a semi didn't exist...

Paint isn't too expensive...you just shoot too much.

P8NT4LIFE
05-04-2003, 12:25 PM
So you said some paintball companies are losing money. hmm ya that sounds right produce a product and make no profit and go into debt.:laugh:

No_DAMN_NAMES
05-04-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by P8NT4LIFE
So you said some paintball companies are losing money. hmm ya that sounds right produce a product and make no profit and go into debt.:laugh: I am glad you read the whole thing. I didn't write any of that. *******.

Yakb0
05-04-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by P8NT4LIFE
So you said some paintball companies are losing money. hmm ya that sounds right produce a product and make no profit and go into debt.:laugh:

untill the .com's collapsed, that was their plan. They'd lose money on every sale, but because everyone thought that being on the internet garunteed business success, their stock prices kept on rising.

iTz NyaGo
05-04-2003, 01:09 PM
paint is expensive, but like someone else said. the price will drop once more people start playing. the more popular the sport, the more people play, the more paint is bought, the less paint costs.

Azn_gansta
05-04-2003, 03:44 PM
55$ for 2000 rds. of paint isnt that expensive. get jobs. im 15 and when i play with my friends near there houses i use a bout 500 usually less and im getting eleminations all the time. And i can play every week.
When i go to the field i use about a case, cuase theres actual speedball and stuff.
if u think about 2000 paintballs shot is kind of a lot. U have to pull the trigger 2000 times to shoot them all. if ur playing woods or playing with friends 2000 should last for a little bit.
Adapt to what u can buy

X_Brolly_X
05-04-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Azn_gansta
55$ for 2000 rds. of paint isnt that expensive. get jobs. im 15 and when i play with my friends near there houses i use a bout 500 usually less and im getting eleminations all the time. And i can play every week.
When i go to the field i use about a case, cuase theres actual speedball and stuff.
if u think about 2000 paintballs shot is kind of a lot. U have to pull the trigger 2000 times to shoot them all. if ur playing woods or playing with friends 2000 should last for a little bit.
Adapt to what u can buy

Ya but 70 for 2000 32 team colors is pricey, and thats all we can get unless we order online.

sef
05-04-2003, 04:07 PM
Prices will go down, the demand is there. If your company can’t do it, a shop will open up somewhere in Asia and make paintballs cheaper. I wish it wasn’t true but look at what those Asian shops did to the US semiconductor manufacturers, these days it’s VERY hard to find any memory or hard drives made in this country.Hell, look at the Black Dragon LCD, it’s made in Taiwan if I’m not mistaking. It’s not super reliable but it has a lot of neat features for around 200 $.

I'm just saying that if the demand is there someone will learn to fill it. Like I want to buy paint and general gun upgrades cheap, my local pro shop (Pev’s in my case) has everything I want, but blazepaintball.com sells the same stuff for 10 – 30 $ less. Who do you think I’m going to buy from?

My suggestion is spend less time trying to change the market and more time trying to adapt to it. But hell, what do I know? I’m not exactly the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

Halliday
05-04-2003, 04:47 PM
Things cost what they do because there are people out there that will pay for them. I use to work at a national chain photo lab. We had photo club memberships that cost about $15/yr. Why $15? I asked my regional manager and they came up with $15 because when they gave them away for free there was no percieved value. If they charged more, people wouldn't buy them. They had to strike a balance between too cheap and too expensive.

When cd's first came out (I'm showing my age here......) they were expected to go down in price. Heck, they were new and people just though they cost more. Have the prices of cd's gone down? No they have stayed the same or gone up, because that is the price people will buy them for, eve when it costs about $1 to actually manufacture a cd.

So, what I'm trying to say is paint costs what it does because that is the price consumers will pay for them. Untill there is competition from Asia, paint prices will stay the same.

Taste_Me
05-04-2003, 05:18 PM
Unless your talking about tournaments or big scenario games then stop whining about paint prices. I wish it was only $50 a case. It's more like $70 at a cheap tourney and as much as $100 at others

Cadet2005
05-04-2003, 06:19 PM
I am not sure I understand the argument behind "paint being too expensive". Apparently it isn't or you wouldn't play. When I don't have the money to buy paint I don't play, and when I do, I conserve my ammo because wasted ordinance costs me money. I admit that 2000 rounds of paint for 70-100 bucks is incredibly steep (every field around here has it about 50-60 and the shops similar) but you are the consumer who purchases the product at this price. If you didn't buy it, the business would be forced to come down to stay in business...simple market economics. On the other hand, you have to remember that this isn't all the CEO fault of the paint company, part of it is your local shop. If you don't like their prices, again, don't buy from there. If it is FPO, then don't play there. If you do or "have to" (there are always alternatives, maybe not "good" ones but there are) then you have no reason to complain that prices are high because you are conforming to the practice. It is just like gasoline. People need it to go places, so the gas companies can charge beaucoup money and still enact a profit, but on the other hand, if they go too high Big Brother (the Government) steps in and says "wait a sec". The companies sell that much because people will buy it, so in essence, it isn't their fault, it is the consumer's fault.

Spartan 2
05-04-2003, 06:50 PM
Yah, I guess I'm lucky. We got $50 for a case of all star, $40 for big ball, and $60 for EVIL. The only places that charge alot in maryland are are fields, because you HAVE to use their paint. So they charge $80 for a case of team colors. So we simply play in home made fields.One friends place for woods, another for scenario, and another for speedball.
And when we want to go to a real field we drive the 1 hour out of state to Penn. were we can use any paint we want.

Mrfxiitxx
05-06-2003, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by X_Brolly_X


Ya but 70 for 2000 32 team colors is pricey, and thats all we can get unless we order online.

Okay lets note to everyone complaining about paying $70-100 a case.

1st this article is talking about Diablo's manufacturing costs as being sustainable. Diablo doesnt sell their paint to a vendor for $70 a case. THats you vendor selling it to you so he/she can make enough money to pay for his/her overhead such as field insurance, rent, equipment etc..

These places get paint for anywhere from around $30 a case to $50 case depending on the amount of paint they buy and the quality of paint they buy.

Diablo could be totally right that their prices are going to stay stable, unless they can find a way to reduce their costs(or are willing to make less of a profit).

But on the flip side its much more likey for us to see a price decline from paintball getting more popular because it will mean the local(and internet) retailers can buy more paint at once and thus get a better price and(hopefully) pass on their savings to us.

Mr.Fixit

Hoplon
05-06-2003, 05:01 PM
That's assuming that we don't excede the production capibilites of the paintball makers. If they can't or choose not to produce enough paint to meet the higher demand then prices will go up.

I don't want to even think about that when i'm already paying $100 for a case. :eek:

Mrfxiitxx
05-06-2003, 05:27 PM
LOL yeah right. Buisness econmics say otherwise.

If you have a high demand for a product you dont decrease supply and increase price, that actually hurts your profit margin.

Basically all buisnesses that put out a product try and lower the price down as low as they can because a lower price point equals more potential buyers. The only thing is they dont make it the rock bottom price they try and put it a few dollars(depending on the item) above that price because they wont loose many customers.

I have yet to see a mass produced product go up in price because the demand increased gradually. Its not like we are going from 6 million paintballers to 20 million in a year. Yeah if that happened I could see prices potentially going up. But when your faced with a steadily increasing demand prices generaly will stay the same and slowly decrease as companies are able to operate more effeceintly.

Mr.Fixitx

Yakb0
05-06-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Mrfxiitxx
LOL yeah right. Buisness econmics say otherwise.

Basically all buisnesses that put out a product try and lower the price down as low as they can because a lower price point equals more potential buyers.



Not true at all. Look at the cost of Windows, or Word..once software has been developed, the cost of making another copy is negligible...by your logic, Microsoft should lower the price of all its software to $5...

If you lower costs, more people will buy it, but if you raise costs, you'll make more money per product...successfull companies, find the point on that scale that makes them the most money overall, and price at that point.



I have yet to see a mass produced product go up in price because the demand increased gradually.



movie tickets, the smallest size of soda at a fast food place. I'm sure there are other examples

Mrfxiitxx
05-06-2003, 05:57 PM
movie tickets are not a consumer product, they are a service so is fast food. A product is a packaged good also inflation plays a part.

And windows prices are so high because of more than one thing.

1. They have a monoply over 85% of all PC's use windows operating system.

2. Just like the article above points out there are other costs than the matrial costs. So yeah it costs microsoft like $5 for the CD and the book etc.. But that sure doesnt pay for the salary of how ever many thousands of people that had some part to play in getting that product out the door and to the street.

2. Lowering prices is buisness ecomnics.

A good example is a toy like say an action figure. IF its a rare collectible action figure or one thats from a series thats not popular except among a small group of people, you can expect to pay $10-15 for it easy. Now lets take your run of the mill G.I Joe action figure that every kid on the street has wants, usually around $5 or so.

2. THere is also whats called a ideal price point. The point where maxim profits are achived this is almost always towards the lower end of the scale of what a company can sell a product for and still make a small profit but its never at the rock bottom.

Why because the differnce between the rock bottom price and the ideal price point is typically so small that the consumer will pay the extra $$ to get that item.

Yeah the toy company could probably sell their action figures for $3.50 but if they sell it for $5 its not going to make them loose a large amount of their customer base.

If you dont believe me go take some econimcs classes and find out yourself. This is a grossly oversimplfied version of how econmics work when dealing with packaged products.

Mr.Fixitx

Mr. Kitty
05-06-2003, 06:09 PM
Anyways... about the paint,

Maybe you should try to pick up a spnsorship. Once you do, it's 30 bucks a case!