what upgrades improve accuracy besides a good barrel to paint match

[alex]

what upgrades will improve my accuracy?

[blake_sw]

New valve and regulator to lower pressure and increase consistency. My Pure Energy reg works GREAT, +/- 1,2,3fps with a stock valve!

[alex]

im thinking of getting a palmer stab female,and putting another reg as a foregrip and i was thinging of the pe reg but i read the reviews and every said that the first one they got was sh*t but then they returned it and got another one and it worked great.

[mothon]

if you are gonna use two regs you should just get a used wgp reg off of a cocker,to use as a foregrip.

[pr0kch0p]

why not just get a male stabilizer? they are the same price as the female stab, because you have to buy a mounting bracket for the female stab

[Zac_T21]

maybe a stablizer.
bolt sometimes helps.

[wushupeter]

n2 will help consistency which is the basis of accuracy. a new reg. a new bolt could help depending on the kind

[flyingdeadbody1]

accuracy...hmmm what would improve this...i think the ultimate answer is...

1. good p/b match (freak barrel kit)
2. good paintballs with small seams...(any RPS ball, marbs and all-stars are probly the best now)
3. good regulator (gladiator, macdev, vigilante...etc.)
4. good nitro tank (just a regular nitro tank will do, but if you play tourneys and own an electro i recomend an adjustable flatline, max-flo, or macdev conquest...)

if you shoot 6bps or so you will only need a decent regulator and nitro tank. (pmi pure energy, pmi 68/3000)

if you want reasonable accuracy, dont use Co2...

and remember, paintballs will never fly perfectly straight.
read what tom kaye has to say about this issue...
go to www.automags.org, and in the tech section read up on the stuff, and in short, mostly in article #3 i think, he says at the end, accuracy by volume is the best way to score eliminations, and will remain the best way to score eliminations.

article name is "spinning paintballs" by the way...

[alex]

thanx everybody so really what a good idea would be is to go n2 then a palmer male stab. and about the bolt, mine is cupped:D and no venturi

[PiranhaPro]

The ONLY things that help accuracy are:
Barrels
Paint
Consistancy
LP setup.

Bolts, valves, etc etc will NOT help. No matter what the company says, they just want you to buy their stuff.

[alex]

hey ppro whats a good lp setup

[CARBON]

Get a reg. I heard those help accuracy just as good as an upgrade barrel.
________
Holden commodore (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Holden_Commodore)

[Magadeth]

Originally posted by PiranhaPro
The ONLY things that help accuracy are:
Barrels
Paint
Consistancy
LP setup.

Bolts, valves, etc etc will NOT help. No matter what the company says, they just want you to buy their stuff.

Low pressure does not nesesarily mean better accuracy. The lower the pressure, the higher the volume of air used, it still exerts the same amount of pressure down the barrel.

[elTwitcho]

Nitro and a regulator. Reg first, nitro next. A great reg that can halde both gasses exceptionally well is the Palmer Stabilizer

[PiranhaPro]

Originally posted by Magadeth


Low pressure does not nesesarily mean better accuracy. The lower the pressure, the higher the volume of air used, it still exerts the same amount of pressure down the barrel.

LP does help in accuracy. With high pressure, you use a very short, quick hard blast of air to hit the ball. With LP, you use a very long, slow, soft blast of air to hit the ball. This results in less ball distortion.

Take this for example, get a piece of yarn, twine, string etc. Hold it in between your hands. Quickly pull aginst the ends. If you use a snap type pull, the string with break in two VERY easily. Now take another piece, and slowly pull, it will take a LOT more effort to break the string.

[elTwitcho]

I've shot guns from the very low pressure range to the stock spyder full tank pressure range and pressure does not affect accuracy in the least. Paintballs dont deform and wobble all over the place like water balloons. They break and make a mess all over your breech and barrel. Ever try shooting a deformed paintball? It's not inacurate, it just plain breaks in your barrel. If pressure deformed a paintball to any significant amount it would break before it became inacurate. All low pressure guns do is allow you to shoot more brittle paint and reduce barrel breaks. Accuracy and deformity is just not a factor.

Food for thought, Tom Kaye actually spent years trying to make a perfectly round paintball. Like completely perfect, no seam, the whole deal. When he finally got it just right he tried these new paintballs and found no increase in accuracy or range whatsoever over your standard paintball which is always slightly deformed one way or another.

[snipinhick]

I agree with 'twicho, all paintballs are not perfectly round, they all have deformity from a perfect sphere, but all have a flex tolerance. EVERY paintball can flex to a certain degree, making the slightly deformed spheres able to contort to the barrels shape. If paintballs had no play when fired, you would never get shot off. EVERY ball would break in the barrel.

Now I have this idea, correct me because I think I'm going to be wrong.

I would think WHERE the pressure of the air hitting the ball would matter. Even though the barrel is there to put the deformed sphere at a certain trajectory. If the force exerted on the paintball is not done so in even amounts, say the air forcing the top of the ball, that this will cause some sort of irregular spin. Now with this irregular spin, after the ball leaves the barrel it will cause different air pressure under or over the ball, making it either lift or sink. I have seen this personally in spud scuds I've made during an experiment.

Now say you have a bolt the releases the air at evenly spread amounts, putting the force on all exposed areas of the ball. wouldn't' this causes a ball with a dead spin, like the knuckle ball in base ball?

so answer me this question, where on the ball would be the best place for the force the air to be spent?

[elTwitcho]

Heh, in Tom Kayes never ending search for accuracy (he's also tested ported vs non ported, barrel length yadda yadda) he found out how much spin you'd need on a ball for it to affect accuracy. It was an insanely high number something like 3000 rpm. Which is why the flatline needs such a substantial curve, because that ball has really really gotta spin. For a while airsmiths were working on making a backspin bolt, but a bolt just couldnt generate enough spin to make a difference. That was also sorta the whole venturi craze thing as well. People thought if the air hit the ball evenly then the ball wouldnt spin in all sorts of crazy patterns. However, since a bolt cant spin the ball enough to matter, people are starting to go back to the open face bolts because of the lower pressure capabilities. For higher pressure guns such as a Spyder however, venturi bolts will help lower your ball breakage because the force will always be spread out evenly :)

[PiranhaPro]

Arg, I hate these debates. Too much physics involved.

Twitcho, ok, fine, from what I've use, LP helps in accuracy. If anything, LP is regulated air, we all know regs increase accuracy, so an LP gun, weather its from the reg, or from the softer hit on the ball, IS more accuracte.

[Magadeth]

No, it is not more accurate. It is more consistent though. Doc nickel has this to say about it," The gun's operating pressure is irrelevant.

"Low" pressure is a side effect, not a goal in and of itself.

The goal here is to increase efficiency.

Put it this way-If you make the gun efficient, typically that reduces the necessary operating
pressure. But if you simply mod it for "lower pressure" that does NOT necessarily mean the
gun will be efficient.

Some food for thought:

Shocker: 180 psi, low efficiency.
Modded 'Cocker: 180 psi, high efficiency.
Phantom pump: 800 psi, high efficiency.
VM-68: 800 psi, low efficiency.



Stock 'Mag: 400 psi firing pressure, decent efficiency.
"Smart" 'Mag: 350 psi firing pressure, roughly ten percent less efficiency.
"Hyper" 'Mag: 475 psi firing pressure: Roughly ten percent more efficiency.

Bottom line: The operating pressure of a marker is totally irrelevant, and probably ought to be ignored. Instead, I suggest telling how efficient it is.

Doc.

[Incube]

Originally posted by Magadeth


Low pressure does not nesesarily mean better accuracy. The lower the pressure, the higher the volume of air used, it still exerts the same amount of pressure down the barrel.
Acully Lp dose help acuracy. It give the ... n/m i am to lazy anyway it dose help.

[flyingdeadbody1]

i have also been reading up on what Tom Kaye has been saying on this issue. he has lots to say about this stuff, just telling you. He basically researches stuff on accuracy. the myth is that the lower the pressure the less distortion on the ball, equaling more accuracy. he basically proves this incorrect. (he is one smart guy). he has done several tests with high speed photography, photographing the ball coming from a high pressure gun, then low pressure gun, and uses lots of other variables in his test (example: porting/ no porting, barrel length...etc....)...he has concluded that there is no "distortion" on the ball coming out of the barrel. Therefore "Low pressure" is all hype. i can exactly explain everything that he says, but read up on some of it at www.automags.org, its in the tech section or something, under "Tom's tech tips" or something like that. he talks about spin and how many RPM's it would take to create spin on the ball that would actually reduce/increase accuracy. just read up on it i cant explain it. he also talks about barrel effeicency. if you have any questions on this matter i say that you ask Tom directly or by e-mail or something. i wouldn't ask anyone else.

[Magadeth]

I thought i would save you all some time and do a little cut and paste job. Heres a litle bit about low pressure from Tom.-

"Lower pressure does mean more volume so the air chamber has to get bigger. The Mag runs at about 400 psi chamber pressure. To go to 200 psi you would have to make the chamber twice as large. This would greatly increase the size of the valve/gun for no good reason.

Low pressure guns take longer to get all that air from the chamber into the barrel behind the ball. The longer this takes, the longer the ball accelerates down the barrel, therefore you need a much longer barrel to accomodate the difference.

Since no other manufacture (and I mean none) have done barrel pressure analysis
except us, we went to 400 psi as the best combination of acceleration and barrel length. The Low Pressure fad is just a case of "more must be better" as evidenced by the fact the very low pressure guns have failed to get any kind of gas efficiency.

Remember we were low pressure (400 psi) ten years ago before anyone even thought
about it. If you didn't know anything about paintball guns, you would look around and
see that the 800 psi guns are working ok but are noisier and the 200 psi guns are getting bad efficiency, what would you GUESS is close to the right pressure?

AGD "

[alex]

ok i just got a 4:2 ration saying that lp does not help accuracy.im still thinking if going lp is worth it it cost a whole lot of money but what twitch and flyingdead body has made me think. but if i make my marker run at 400psi or 450 do think i would be better of than at 800psi to ease up on the pressure a lil bit?

BTW thatnx for all the help

[snipinhick]

Thats funny, my gun runs at 800psi and i've shot a case of paint through it within the last week and have not had a break yet.

god i love my phantom

[KOTOWA]

Originally posted by snipinhick

so answer me this question, where on the ball would be the best place for the force the air to be spent? [/B]


This is sounding like what they said about the flatline...
probably the bottom, giving it a little backspin...

BUT DEPENDS HOW PRESSURE GOES INTO IT...

Too much will make it go outta control...
Too little, it will be a knuckle ball...

so it may depend on gun, barrel, reg, nitro, etc.

There is no real way to find out, other than experimenting...

BUT TIL THEN, HAVE FUN WITH WHAT YOU GOT...

[Magadeth]

I think the best thing is to try to optimize your gun around the pressure it is designed for. Making it lower pressure than it is designed for may cause it to operate improperly or to loose 'efficiency' No need to waste air needlessly.

[snipinhick]

thanks for that reply, maga know what hes talking about when it comes to science, you major in some sort of engineering in college?

[alex]

so ur basically saying running at to low of a pressure will screw it up? well i have a plan just to get a reg and valve and n2 then im done upgrading performance wise

[Magadeth]

I'm not saying low pressure will screw it up, just that making your gun operate on a lower pressure will not help in your goal of better accuracy.
(btw most of what I have posted on this thread is not mine, but has been copy pasted from tom Kaye and Doc Nichols)
A reg, expansion or n2 will help in making it consistent, but your gun (a spyder?) is designed to run at a high pressure. Trying to make your gun do something it is not meant for is going to be counterproductive. If, as a result of upgrades, your gun chrono's out to 290-280 fps at a lower than normal pressure, thats fine. But trying to make the operating pressure lower just for the sake of it wont help you.

A friend of mine has done just about everything possible to a spyder, And had the best results with a reg and exp on co2. (btw HIs custom Milled and anodized frame recently came apart at the welds and I got him a mag to play with)

If you are considering sinking a lot of money into this setup, I would have to urge you to sell your spy, and pick up a mag or cocker, or timmy or bushy, etc. Upgrading low end guns to work as well as the high end guns is possible, but why not spend the same money and get quality parts and fit.

[flyingdeadbody1]

i say dont worry about going LP or anything like that...if you want accuracy get
1. freak barrel
2. decent nitro tank (not ACI bulldog, get a pmi P/E)
3. regulator (any reg will do, pure energy regs work well on blowbacks, if you dont have a blowback, i say go for a vigi)

that will solve your accuracy problems.

oh yeah, and dont expect good accuracy shooting crappy paint. the new RPS advantage paint is a good choice. with a freak you can shoot good paint with good accuracy, and bad paint with decent accuracy. but remember, you will never get the accuracy you want, because as Tom says, paintballs dont have the aerodynamics to fly straight. so after you buy those 3 upgrades, save you money for paint. case closed. :)

[alex]

well i thought about gettin a mag but its to high end for me the maitnence and all but i like my spyder(compact) and i will probably just get n2 and a palmer stabilizer. and then learn about the future gun i am going to get and then decide if i'm going to get it. BTW i am shootin my cp with feild paint,its zap i think

[Magadeth]

Dude! get the mag! Dont let maintenance put you off. My mag is OLD and still runs like a champ. The mag is probably the easyest marker to field strip, it breaks down with one screw, and if you do that after each day of p-ball and wipe down and oil the internals, it will last forever AND WILL NOT MESS UP ON YOU EVER. The mag has to be one of the most durable, simple markers out there. I cant really hink of one that has a more simple design.

[alex]

but most of the paitball knowlegde i have is on blowbacks and particularly spyders. but i guess i can do some research on the at one time i was interested in a mag.what do you guyz recomend?

[Killer Kat]

Originally posted by PiranhaPro
The ONLY things that help accuracy are:
Barrels
Paint
Consistancy
LP setup.

Bolts, valves, etc etc will NOT help. No matter what the company says, they just want you to buy their stuff.
Piranha, I don't totally agree with the last part of that statement, I've got delrin bolts in both of my Impulse's and had delrin in my Shutter, and IMVHO I believed they helped my accuracy due to the fact they reduced kick (Imp more than Spyder) as well as reducing wear drag friction etc etc... So my guess would be, depending totally upon the marker you use, Bolts could have a effect in accuracy!