Common Paint and Barrel misconceptions

[cocker kid 2k2]

A few misconceptions that I've noticed on the forums lately is the fact that barrel kits are out there, but what they're really useful for.

Many people think that if you have a better paint to barrel match, you will get better acuracy, while this is true, only to a certain extent. As long as your paint is good, and your barrel is good, the bore sizes does not matter, as long as the barrel is larger than the paint, dont believe me? Then why do so many tournament players use the .691 and .693 inserts with their Freaks and other such kits? I can assure you its not because they're shooting .693 size paint.

The only true thing that having a good paint to barrel match will help is your efficiency level, and even that is so hardly affected as well. You reallly wont even notice much of a difference if your using a .690 barrel, and you go from .688 paint, to .682. Just turn your reg or velocity adjuster up a little bit, and you'll be where you need to be.

So what are barrel kits useful for you say? They have their place, but it is not with a majority of the markers out there, the only type of marker that a barrel kit is actually useful for, is a closed bolt marker. Why closed bolt you ask? Very simple, you see, when the closed bolt design is at rest, the bolt and ball, are both past the ball detent, ball detents on closed bolt markers prevent double feeding, not paint from rolling down the barrel. So if your paint doesn't match your barrel damn near perfectly, you'll get paint rolling down your barrel which we all hate.

Why doesn't this happen on open bolt markers? Once again pretty simple, when the open bolt design is in the resting position, both the bolt and ball are behind the detent, preventing it from rolling down the barrel, so you can have .680 paint, and a .692 barrel, and your paint wont roll down your barrel. Very nice.

Now some of you are going to argue it and say that paint to barrel match for any type of marker is important, and believe what you want, but I myself have seen in my own eyes that it isn't. And let me also ask you, before you post, take into consideration that Team Strange shoots .679 paint, and uses .693 inserts, if paint to barrel match really mattered for an accurate shot, they wouldn't do that.

Read, learn, dont post questions that this thread has clearly answered, good day.

-CK

[ClamChowda]

You continue to have sensible ideas, CK.

I'm going to back CK on this. If you have an open bolt marker, do NOT waste $ on a barrel kit. Only do this for closed bolt markers.

[VeNoM]

Interesting, we should take some shot patterns and velocity readings of the same paint in a matched bore, than slightly loose in the bore... Paint smaller than the bore of the barrel in a closed bolt marker (like a cocker) is not so much fun, you are right there :) ...

[cocker kid 2k2]

Heh, i'm already one step ahead of ya there VeNoM, I'm already in the process of gathering several barrels/paints of all various bore sizes to test to show physical proof that this "theory" is correct, I dont know how long it'll take me to gather all the materials, but i'll post the results in this thread when i'm done.

Originally posted by nole16k
HHHMMM...I smell a sticky.

Not sticky worthy.... yet, not until I get those results up at least.

[Lopez17]

As someone who works with a great deal of stats and numbers...I highly recommend using LOTS of paint to prove your theory correct. Reason being paintballs vary in consistency due to the fact that they're 1) Not perfectly round 2) Not always the same consistency and 3) filled with a fluid which can impact the physics and trajectory of the ball. Over time and with enough sample data you should be able to do a pretty good linear (or hell do a natural log regression) regression to support your theory.

[cocker kid 2k2]

I plan on using about well, its all about how much I can gather in a given period of time. 15, no job, I'm gunna have to use my money wisely.

[cocker kid 2k2]

Well, I did a little test yesterday that made my friend relatively mad (Sorry guys, I couldn't get pics, neither of us own a digi cam). But we were playing and all, and he had just finished cleaning his gun, so I asked him to let me see it, it was a spyder compact 2000, with an esp frame, bob long venturi bolt, java expansion chamber, and a freak. We were using Evil, and the whole day he had been using he .689 insert which was shooting pretty accurate, so then I shot off about 20 - 40 rounds with that setup as is. Then I took the freak off and put in the gold insert (.693) and I had done like before, layed down a string of paint, and it had the EXACT SAME accuracy, so then just to prove this theory even further, I put in the pink insert (.695) and it once again had the EXACT SAME accuracy, needless to say he was a bit mad that he had ended up getting the entire kit when he realized that one large bore barrel could shoot as good as his kit.

And more test to come...

[VeNoM]

If they shot exactly the same, what is the point of sacrificing efficiency then?... I will always have a hard time using smaller paint unless I change markers, cockers don't like small paint in there barrel :) ...

[nole16k]

Originally posted by VeNoM
cockers don't like small paint in there barrel :) ... This only applies to open-bolt markers.

[cocker kid 2k2]

Originally posted by VeNoM
If they shot exactly the same, what is the point of sacrificing efficiency then?... I will always have a hard time using smaller paint unless I change markers, cockers don't like small paint in there barrel :) ...

Very simple, and the answer is, nobody always uses the same paint, and paint isn't always the same size. If you spend 90 on a .692 Ultralite, you can shoot ANY paint out there, given you can shoot any paint on a freak, it'll cost you about twice the price, and for what? Nothing really, once again, Barrel kits are only good on closed bolt markers.

[xLiLHockeyFreak]

Bah! soon, very soon! When I am not lazy I will get my tank filled and test my Freak kit to see your true intelectual knowledge. . . .

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by cocker kid 2k2
so then I shot off about 20 - 40 rounds with that setup as is. Then I took the freak off and put in the gold insert (.693) and I had done like before, layed down a string of paint, and it had the EXACT SAME accuracy, so then just to prove this theory even further, I put in the pink insert (.695) and it once again had the EXACT SAME accuracy

So... you didn't clamp the marker down in a vice then? What about consistancy in fps? Did you check that out?

In either case, I'm sure you've heard (as I have) the numerous stories of freak inserts being inconsistant in size. Personally, I would think if someone were sponsored, I don't see why they wouldn't get a proper paint/barrel match. Although there aren't any huge downsides to using a large barrel (a bit less efficiency, possibly a bit less consistancy), there are some benefits to a properly sized barrel.

[cocker kid 2k2]

Originally posted by FallNAngel


So... you didn't clamp the marker down in a vice then? What about consistancy in fps? Did you check that out?



For consistancy, no, I didn't check that out, but I wasn't checking for accuracy of how far it went, I was checking for left to right accuracy, which is what people claim a bad paint to barrel match will affect, consistancy doesn't affect left to right accuracy whatsoever.

I did not clamp the marker down in a vice, however, I also did not change my shooting styles. I shoot the same way with every marker, and the test was performed side by side, so there really isn't the largest room for error. Especially not enough to prove that the bore size would make a difference.

And also, having a large bore barrel couldn't really affect the consistancy of the marker, only the efficiency, and even that change is barely noticable unless you actually sit down and count how many shots you get per fill.

[Lurker27]

I'm gonna have to agree with CK here. A major advantage to the one large barrel theory is that paint that is less consistent in size can be shot with better accuracy.

[taso_winforce]

Originally posted by cocker kid 2k2



And also, having a large bore barrel couldn't really affect the consistancy of the marker, only the efficiency, and even that change is barely noticable unless you actually sit down and count how many shots you get per fill.
sure it can. since different amounts of air can escape around the ball each shot your consistency would be different.

[Lurker27]

Taso, the cross section of the ball is a given area, and so is the barrel? How does that affect consistency?

[cocker kid 2k2]

The amount of air displaced on the ball is determined by the regulator, not by the paint to barrel match.

[Lurker27]

...and flwo and vave dwell.


I think what you're trying to say is that the only factors is consistency is consistency of air (regulator) and consistency of ammo (paint).

[taso_winforce]

Ok let me say this again. since different amounts of air can escape around the ball, while the ball is in the barrel,each shot. your consistency would be different. the reg would have nothing to do with it.

[Lurker27]

THINK about what you're saying. Air escapign isnt a problem, it would be equal. vwarying amounts of friction inn the barrel would.

[taso_winforce]

i'm saying it would not be equal every time!

[Lurker27]

Which is wrong, sense the area for air to escape is always equal. The friciton varies.

[taso_winforce]

ok fine you got me. but like you said since the friction would change with each shot the consistency would be less.

[Dougk12]

You match paint to get more consistency. More consistency = better accuracy, especially as range increases.

Paint is getting so round and consistant nowadays, that the accuracy increase with a good paint/barrel match may be marginal but its still there.

The original poster is wrong and collecting data (if you could call it that?) is wasting your time. The work has already been done for you by many people who all say the same thing "A good paint to barrel match will give you the best accuracy".

Dont beleive me??

Do you beleive AGD? They are one group that has tested this theory out extensively and heres what they have found....

http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/02_boresize.shtml

Does having a good paint barrel match improve your accuracy??? YES. How does it do it? Very simple, if your gun shoots with a consistent velocity the paintballs will tend to follow the same arc, thereby improving accuracy. It technically is making your gun more consistent which is a better term than accuracy.


Read this and understand it before you start posting UNPROVEN "theories". If you really believe what you posted, then get data proving its true then come back.

[taso_winforce]

yea doug i went with the consistency theory but it was shot down by lurker. did you bother to read the whole thread?

[Lurker27]

I'm just going with what AGD testing shows. I think at high bhind the ball pressures, you might actually get more of a cradled/air bearing effect.

[Cuervo]

Actually, lurker, it isn't always equal. The ball is affected by gravity and is therefore sitting on the "bottom" of the barrel. If the bore size is larger than the ball, there is more area for air to escape above the ball (and also the sides) than on the bottom. You're wrong, but it probably isn't relevent, because the difference in minimal. If you magnified it to much larger proportions, I'd say it'd be a factor.

Another fact that hasn't been considered is the ball detent. If the ball aligns perfectly with the bolt every time, you'll get consistancy. Heck, if it aligns the SAME every time, you'll get consistancy. If it doesn't... poof.

[cocker kid 2k2]

Shoot it, actually go out there, and try a large bore barrel and small bore paint. Before taking out all your physics and facts on the subject.

[Skrilla]

Actually, lurker, it isn't always equal. The ball is affected by gravity and is therefore sitting on the "bottom" of the barrel. If the bore size is larger than the ball, there is more area for air to escape above the ball (and also the sides) than on the bottom. You're wrong, but it probably isn't relevent, because the difference in minimal. If you magnified it to much larger proportions, I'd say it'd be a factor.

A quick question: If all the air is escaping over the top if the ball wouldnt that push the ball upwards? Like on an airplane wing the air has to go faster over the top of the airfoil which induces lift. Granted a paintball is not an airfoil but i think the principle would be the same.

Just some things to think about :)

[Dougk12]

Shoot it, actually go out there, and try a large bore barrel and small bore paint. Before taking out all your physics and facts on the subject.

Im not breaking out physics, I wouldnt know the first thing. I am relying on TESTING and DATA which a very well known and trusted PIONEER and engineer of our sport has used to come up with this assumption. Again, as stated, paintballs are getting so consistant and so round that the benefits may be marginal but they are there.

Can you tell by changing the bore sizes in your friends gun and shooting 20 balls at a bunker 50 feet away? No, thats silly. You didnt even use a vice or a chrono. What does that prove really?

Is it worth buying a barrel kit? Depends on if you want that extra marginal gain. Should you use a 695 insert in your kit because YOU FEEL that it shoots just as accurately as a 679 which is a perfect fit? No, thats just blatant stupidity.

As far as Strange using 679 paint in a huge 695 bore, alot of pros are old schoolers and have old school opinions on things. I talked to a good buddy of mine who had played pro for many years and after telling him that I traded in my cocker for a matrix he asked "WTF? Does that thing shoot as far and as accurate?" Of course I told him he was a scrub but thats just the point. When I used to play years back I was told that for best accuracy I should use the smallest paint I could find with the biggest barrel. Now I know thats silly, but then I didnt question it.

Alot of weird ideas have been floating around for a long time. Do you really want to start this one? Its silly, it really is and I guarantee you cant prove it.

Bore fitting isnt only for cockers. Actually, its the main reason why the myth about cockers being so accurate began. People with cockers had to get multiple barrels and then size their paint so it wouldnt roll out the barrel. Good paint match common in cockers turns into cockers and closed bolt guns being more accurate. But thats a whole other story..... :)

[Lurker27]

Originally posted by Cuervo
Actually, lurker, it isn't always equal. The ball is affected by gravity and is therefore sitting on the "bottom" of the barrel. If the bore size is larger than the ball, there is more area for air to escape above the ball (and also the sides) than on the bottom. You're wrong, but it probably isn't relevent, because the difference in minimal. If you magnified it to much larger proportions, I'd say it'd be a factor.

Another fact that hasn't been considered is the ball detent. If the ball aligns perfectly with the bolt every time, you'll get consistancy. Heck, if it aligns the SAME every time, you'll get consistancy. If it doesn't... poof.


Think aoubt it...that doesnt make me wrong...it just affirms that the area the ball doesnt cover is usually on top.

[cocker kid 2k2]

Originally posted by Dougk12

Can you tell by changing the bore sizes in your friends gun and shooting 20 balls at a bunker 50 feet away? No, thats silly. You didnt even use a vice or a chrono. What does that prove really?

Where did I say it was 50 feet away? If I shot it from 50 feet away even I would say thats stupid because there really isn't much room for it to curve now is there. At a bunker, I shot from about 90-100 feet away, then I took the setup into an open field and fired a few shots and none of the shot curved, at any shot

Is it worth buying a barrel kit? Depends on if you want that extra marginal gain. Should you use a 695 insert in your kit because YOU FEEL that it shoots just as accurately as a 679 which is a perfect fit? No, thats just blatant stupidity.

Try it first buddy, its hardly stupidity, it works, I'm willing to bet $100 you've never tried that setup, so how can you disclaim its accuracy being the same so quickly?

As far as Strange using 679 paint in a huge 695 bore, alot of pros are old schoolers and have old school opinions on things. I talked to a good buddy of mine who had played pro for many years and after telling him that I traded in my cocker for a matrix he asked "WTF? Does that thing shoot as far and as accurate?" Of course I told him he was a scrub but thats just the point. When I used to play years back I was told that for best accuracy I should use the smallest paint I could find with the biggest barrel. Now I know thats silly, but then I didnt question it.

The thing is here, nobody told me this (well a couple more experiened people) but the majority of the people on any online forums and usually in real life too will tell you that paint to barrel match means a LOT when it comes to an accurate shot. I myself found this hard to believe, so I have been doing minor tests whenever I got the chance and so far what i've seen is that the paint to barrel match doesn't matter as long as the barrel is larger than the ball

Alot of weird ideas have been floating around for a long time. Do you really want to start this one? Its silly, it really is and I guarantee you cant prove it.

I don't really need to prove it to you guys, it wont benefit me at all, I was trying to inform others, but apparently some are stubborn so they'll go out of their way to buy useless kits, and go matching their paint perfectly which will hold no true advantage to them, fine by me, you wont see me spending any more than 90 on a barrel for an open bolt marker

Bore fitting isnt only for cockers. Actually, its the main reason why the myth about cockers being so accurate began. People with cockers had to get multiple barrels and then size their paint so it wouldnt roll out the barrel. Good paint match common in cockers turns into cockers and closed bolt guns being more accurate. But thats a whole other story..... :)

Actually your wrong. The myth about autocockers being so accurate is because back when autocockers were invented (early 90's) the only other markers around were blowbacks and such, maybe a few mags. But Cockers obviously had less kick than those other markers, better consistancy as well, hence the better accuracy, kits weren't even invented till the late late 90's early 2k. And the myth started long before then.

gee lets see, who do I trust?? The inventor of the automag and high pressure air or this kid telling me to use really small paint and the biggest insert I have. do u really think that they would have made it a kit if it wasnt worth it? i think not. cocker kid, phisics is a good class for u to take this year in school cuz if u dont believe it mabey u can read it in a damn book. go to that site and read it, every word of it, and think about who wrote it. Tom Kaye invented the automag and hp in a paintball gun so i think he just might know what hes talking about. he prolly has just a tad bit more experience than u too.

Once again, I don't need to prove this theory to you or anybody else, I was trying to help and save you guys some time/effort/money. If you want to be stuborn, by all means go out and buy a barrel kit, it wont affect me at all, i'll just laugh when I see your (insert open bolt marker here) with a kit on it. Because I'll know that you wasted more money than you had to.

no since i'm not going to be perfectly stationary in a game. I could really care less what happens on a vice

Exactly, people take the vice method way too seriously, act like the marker won't be fully accurate unless its in a vice for testing.

Either way, apparently several of you are stubborn, won't try the theory, and will dismiss it without even considering it. Thats fine, but just remember who'll be laughing when you pay that extra 80-100 bucks on a kit. Yeap, me, the same person who can get just as good accuracy with one large bore barrel.

[Dougk12]

I think the problem with your theory is that you are claiming you get ZERO benefit from matching paint which is FALSE.

You get a SMALL benefit from it, it improves your consistency a little. Is this SMALL benefit worth it? That depends on the player. It was for me but the majority of my shooting is from range and the front guy I am backing up depends on my shots being as accurate as possible.

Is it worth upgrading to a barrel kit? Is it worth upgrading stock barrel? Oh it is? How much more accurately does your upgraded DYE ultralite shoot over your stock barrel? I bet we would be surprised to see the numbers. But thats the point, everyone decides if that small increase is worth it.

You want to do a real test? Take your friends freak kit and some draxxus inferno or some other really small paint. Put the biggest bore insert in the gun and fire 100 shots over the chrono, writing down the number after each shot. Then grab the next smallest bore and repeat. Rinse and repeat with all the inserts. Find the mean and then figure what the average variance is. If the variance goes down as you get a tighter bore, then your gun shoots more consistant with a better fit. Make sure the gun is working good and the everything is nice and clean and you will see.

[theFlash2k2]

"Once again, I don't need to prove this theory to you or anybody else, I was trying to help and save you guys some time/effort/money. If you want to be stuborn, by all means go out and buy a barrel kit, it wont affect me at all, i'll just laugh when I see your (insert open bolt marker here) with a kit on it. Because I'll know that you wasted more money than you had to."

ok dude think about what ur sayin. u say u dont need to "prove ur theory" cuz its FALSE. u sayin "i was trying to help save time/effort/money", well then why would u get rid of ur stock barrel if its just gonna shoot the same, but its not, thats why other companies made aftermarket barrels. how will this affect u? well when ur pickin the shell out of ur mouth and tell me how that inferno tastes, then u can make a new theory.
and yall r sayin why u would need a vice and chrono? well sayin "about" and "it looks like" isnt a scientific measurement. if ur gonna try to prove a theory u will NEED (as in have to have) to put in exact measurements. sure in a game ur not gonna b still but if ur gonna try to prove accuracy (actually it would b precision) ull need a vice, not ur friends gun and sayin about, because ur not gonna b still holding it in the EXACT spot. and u cant say the velocity "looked" the same, without a chrono. if a large bore insert gives u 15 fps, ya that might b somewhat consistent, but then if u take a tighter fitting bore size and shoot 5 then that size would b just a little bit more consistent. sure it wont b a huge change, if u dont think that 10fps better on ur tippmann or cocker means much, but like doug said it depends on the player and if watch am and pro teams who know what theyre doing, they would rather b that much more consistent and precise.
if u want to REALLY want to "check" ur theory do the test that doug said, if u need help on the chrono and vice go to www.pbstar.com and thell show u how, and go tell it to Tom Kaye and post us ur results and conversation with him.
luker and taso, with a larger bore the air isnt going to b equally distributed because of it being loose, in which it has room to move around, where if its tighter the air is going to b more evenly distributed in which giving it more consistency over a chrono.

[taso_winforce]

Originally posted by Dougk12
I think the problem with your theory is that you are claiming you get ZERO benefit from matching paint which is FALSE.

You get a SMALL benefit from it, it improves your consistency a little. Is this SMALL benefit worth it? That depends on the player. It was for me but the majority of my shooting is from range and the front guy I am backing up depends on my shots being as accurate as possible.

Is it worth upgrading to a barrel kit? Is it worth upgrading stock barrel? Oh it is? How much more accurately does your upgraded DYE ultralite shoot over your stock barrel? I bet we would be surprised to see the numbers. But thats the point, everyone decides if that small increase is worth it.

You want to do a real test? Take your friends freak kit and some draxxus inferno or some other really small paint. Put the biggest bore insert in the gun and fire 100 shots over the chrono, writing down the number after each shot. Then grab the next smallest bore and repeat. Rinse and repeat with all the inserts. Find the mean and then figure what the average variance is. If the variance goes down as you get a tighter bore, then your gun shoots more consistant with a better fit. Make sure the gun is working good and the everything is nice and clean and you will see. he never said there was no difference. he said it was minnimal. the different between the accuracy of a stock barrel is pretty big. well it was for me since i have a spyder. most spyder stock barrels are terrible due to lack of consistency of bore and the honing. my cp 1 piece is probably at least 3 times better than my stock barrel. probably more too.

[Lurker27]

Originally posted by theFlash2k2

luker and taso, with a larger bore the air isnt going to b equally distributed because of it being loose, in which it has room to move around, where if its tighter the air is going to b more evenly distributed in which giving it more consistency over a chrono.

THE AREA THE PB DOESNT COVER WILL BE THE SAME WITH EVERY SHOT!

[theFlash2k2]

"THE AREA THE PB DOESNT COVER WILL BE THE SAME WITH EVERY SHOT!"

ya but what i am saying is if it is loose it will take more pressure to bring the velocity up, making it less efficient first of all because ull have to turn up ur velocity, and second less consistent because with a tighter bore itll b more evenly distributed because the ball will sit in the same, or closer to the same spot, but if its a larger bore itll b loose therefor not sitting in the same spot every time. altho it might b a fraction of a millimeter difference, and depending on the size difference in the match, the eff. of the bolt and gun, etc., it could equal more or less fps. see what im sayin?
no offence or anything but itll prolly make a bigger difference with my angel or trix than ur spyder or tippmann.

here this is the test done by tom kaye (inventor of hp in pbguns and of the automag) and his explination on why it is more consistent and accurate.

"The technique used to research paint/barrel match is simple and doable by anyone. Testing is performed by blowing a thin powder down the barrel to coat the inside. We used to use Desenex Foot Powder that sprayed on dry. Todays Desenex is a different formulation and doesn't make a powder. Once you have coated the barrel you dry fire the gun once to clear out any extra powder. Lastly shoot one paintball out the gun and inspect the inside of the barrel. The powder will be stripped away everywhere the ball touched. This allows you to see exactly what happened to the ball down the barrel.

If the barrel is too big, the ball ricochets back and forth down the tube. We used to say it looked like Zebra stripes in there. Hence big barrels do NOT create an "air bearing". Barrels that are too small scrape most of the powder off and this creates excessive FRICTION. Tighter barrels that were too long were found to slow the balls down due to this friction. In other words, when you cut these barrels down, velocity went up. Remember the 8-10" acceleration distance, these barrels were 14" long and unported."

[Dougk12]

That makes sense Lurker but you didnt even read the link I posted explaining what happens.....

Again, just pulling information that was kindly posted from the work Tom Kaye did on this subject.

http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/02_boresize.shtml

If the barrel is too big, the ball ricochets back and forth down the tube.

[iTz NyaGo]

just out of curiosity, isn't porting done on barrels to prevent the acceleration of the paintball? tom kaye also did a test with this and it showed that porting prevents the ball from acceleration. so wouldn't a 14" unported barrel mean constant acceleration throughout? i'm not sure at all though, just a possibility.

[theFlash2k2]

ya but were talkin about a tighter fit to a looser fit bore, e.i. freaks and sceptors

[iTz NyaGo]

but the test is saying that the ball is bouncing throughout the barrel. i was thinking that it may be consistantly bouncing around because there isn't any room for gas to escape, and therefore constantly adding pressure on the ball thus making it bounce around.

[Ice]

Of course porting will slow a paintballs acceleration. The air that's pushing the ball if being released. That means less air to push the ball. Which would mean that friction would take more into effect, slowing the ball down.

You don't need tests to figure that out.

[reneirwolf878]

So what is the arguement about? Either use a barrel kit or dont. Guys with cockers and otehr closed bolt guns will want one if they use a lot of different sized paint or else they'll get balls rolling out of the barrel, spyders and tippmans and such don't.

[VeNoM]

I don't see how you can come to conclusions before you ran tests?

Scientists don't consider it a fact until it has been tested and proved, until then, this is a theory.


I still think a ball that can fit in your barrel and be blown out with little force is the best fit.

[VeNoM]

Hmmm, well, I have a chrono, a .689 1 piece CP and a Kaner Kit on it's way... Maybe I will see if there is any difference in consistency readings with different sized backs, should have the kit the beginning of next week and can do the test that as soon as that weekend...

[Jaster]

All I know is, that through my Timmy and my freak, if I have a bad match shots go everywhere and so does my FPS. Good match I'm shootin' darts across the field with a steady reading at the chrono. But hey...that's me.

I don't mind the argument or the debate. It's a good topic to debate. However if the smartarse comments don't stop the thread will. M'Kay?! :D

[cocker kid 2k2]

Damn, where's Caleb when ya need him, I need to get about 70 some odd posts in this thing deleted and this thread closed till its useful again.

[VeNoM]

I just received my Kaner kit last night so as soon as I get some air and a place to do these tests I will post some results...


I was thinking just taking 10 chrono readings from the same paint (jt elite) in different size backs and I'll even throw the 1 piece CP in the mix, any other ideas?...

[Jaster]

Originally posted by cocker kid 2k2
Damn, where's Jaster when ya need him, I need to get about 70 some odd posts in this thing deleted and this thread closed till its useful again.

Ask and thy shall recieve....

Closed.....until further notice. Let me know when you're ready.


Venom....you can make a new thread about your test results and I'll merge the two threads later.