Ok, end of sniper debate!

[Mephistopheles]

Ok, it is finally time to set ignorant and childish comments aside, time to bury the hatchet and expose this entire farce of a debate. Because myself, I’m tired of these constant debates that go on within our sport. I prefer unity of everybody compared to separate cliques.

Now with that said, there are indeed snipers in paintball. HOWEVER, they are not the conventional snipers of past from the military. Oh no. The paintball sniper takes most of the characteristics, however. EXCEPT for one major one, the “One Shot – One Kill” mentality. This can not be implied with paintball, for the most part. Because indeed, these are paintballs, so some will fly around and have bad accuracy. Which in turn gets rid of this aspect of sniping in paintball.

Yet, by definition of a sniper, One who shoots at other people from a concealed place. . And within that definition straight from the dictionary (I altered it none whatsoever), nowhere does it say “from a distance”. But that is what you all perceive, is that a sniper MUST be shooting from ½ mile away in order to be an actual sniper. But that is not true. In fact, you can be 5 feet away from your target… and still be a sniper.

Now a sniper does more than just pick people off. Of course, some of you must not think that by your blunt statements. Shooting people is a fraction of his job. A lot of the job includes sneaking around (preferably with a 2-way radio) and reporting back beneficial information. Such as how many people he sees 500 feet ahead on the trail, or what direction the pack is moving, where the enemy base is… et cetera. This is one of the major functions of a sniper.

Another is the setting up of ambushes. If you play scenario games, you know what an ambush is. So with a sniper in mind, he would be able to conceal himself within a bush next to the tree. The platoon of 5 will walk by, not noticing him. After they pass, he’ll take aim and eliminate them. Ambush – successful.

Oh, and before I forget. There is another function a sniper must abide by. An escape plan. ALL good snipers will allow themselves to not only perform their tasks, but also be able to escape unharmed. This is indeed not hard, and can easily be done within the realm of paintball.

Now then, back to ambushes, these can be set up many ways. But say one spots a group instantly when traveling? Ambush can not be used here (because an ambush is premeditated). So what one would do is cut them off, probably pick off at least 2 or so of them, and then hastily retreat to a safe location to either keep leaving, or possibly set himself up to pick off more people.

But back to the definition, I again stress how it says nothing about from a distance. So as far as paintball is concerned, one would have to make the distance within 150 feet to have an accurate shot. And this is not hard to accomplish. In fact, I’ve done such tasks within 50 feet. Concealment is the key to this, not distance.

Add in today’s current technology to accommodate for the closer range sniping. One would get a ported barrel and install a silencer. Well, I’ll save reading time by just saying that. And with this, what you do is quiet the marker down considerably. What that will do is not allow the person be able to triangulate on your position. And them not knowing where the shot came from will help you on concealment.

Any ways, I hope that everybody will read this and learn from it. Let us not bicker and argue about these juvenile debates here forever. Fact is that with paintball, there can be… and there are snipers. You may not like it, but there are. As I already stated the facts, I really do hope some of you actually read what I typed instead of blowing all of it off and closed-mindedly believe that there is no possible way for snipers to be in paintball. If you still say there are no snipers in paintball, please state why you feel so with maturity, and also your reasons why. I am curious as to why people can’t believe in such an idea.

[Richy_C]

I have a solution to the sniper debate



PLAY SPEEDBALL!!

[Mephistopheles]

Again, I stress the idea of maturity, and a real debate here. I don't really like childish posts like that, they just annoy people.

Besides the fact that with Scenario games, Big games, and a LOT of regualr recreational games where snipers are used... you can not play speedball because there are no speedball fields!

[Richy_C]

Well i don't goto the field every day toa scenario game. At scenario games it's ok to do what ever the heck you want, as long as it's not outside the rules. In recball there is no sniping, bigger games allow for som more stealth.

[Mephistopheles]

Yeah, but I do go to a lot of scenario games. I prefer them to tournaments. A lot more fun (I think), and less competition, and less cheating (there is still wiping & all, but not close to the amount in say the Spyder Cup). Plus the field is so large, you usually need a map!

And with this style of game, there are a few people sniping out there on the field. Full ghille suit, 2-ways, etc. And the sign of a REAL sniper.... they use PUMPS! Because a good sniper will be able to position and conceal himself so that an electro's 13bps isn't needed, and such a good aim that after the pump shoot, pump shoot.... 2 people there are now eliminated.

[Chris_2]

is around 600-1000m, depending on the gun and the windage and the elevation. Sniper paintball....I'm just a guy with a long-range paintball gun who stalked people. Umm, have you not been listening? I relay informatio nback to my team and tell them where to be and when. Have you not listened? I'm not dumb, I know this already. I learned from an actual sniper dude. I scout the positions. You should read my posts more often.

[pr0kch0p]

every marker clocked at the same fps (with the exception of the flatline and z-body markers) will have balls flying the same distance, its physics.

[Magadeth]

Originally posted by pr0kch0p
every marker clocked at the same fps (with the exception of the flatline and z-body markers) will have balls flying the same distance, its physics.

True, whats your point?

I routinely 'snipe' people from less than 30 ft. The last time I played, I got two surenders. I snuck up to about 5ft each time.

[KOTOWA]

I dont like that definition of sniper! Its like when u play speedball, and you got shot, you didnt really know who exactly shot you...unless theres 1 person left against u. SNIPERS DONT EXIST!!! WE CAN CALL THEM "SNIPERS" DREAM ShooTERS, STALKERS, BUT Not SNIPERS!!!

[Mephistopheles]

I agree, snipers don't really exist as you said.... on the speedball field! There is almost no possible way for this to be accomplished.

However, as I previously stated like in Scenarios and Big Game formats, there indeed are snipers. You may not like being picked off by them and in turn retaliate by saying you don't like them or calling them snipers.... but they are there.

And if all you do is pluck your *** in one little spot hoping to pick 2 people off out of 48hours.... that is not a sniper. There is a lot more to it than just picking people off.

[Blaster CA]

'Sniping' can be fun & effective. You just gotta have some skill. An unskilled 'sniper' won't be very effective & won't have much fun. Same thing for an unskilled frontline player.

First people hafta realize what a paintball 'sniper' is (an aggressive player usin stealth & accuracy over firepower) Then what a 'sniper' is not (newbie or unskilled players hiding &/or lobbing paint). 'Sniper' doesn't mean defender. Stealthy doesn't mean slow or sit & hide.

It's a misconception that newbies & unskilled players that lob paint & hide are 'snipers'. Playin smart is a big part of being a good player ('sniper' or not).

Another misconception is that 'sniping' is passive. I'm very aggressive in my play. I'm always movin towards the other team. Always probing for a soft spot or blind spot in the line or defense. When there's a push for the flag, I join in. When my team is bein pushed back, I can usually backdoor the other team. Sometimes I can even steal the opponents the flag. I'm usually in the other teams half of the field. I'm always ahead of my team on the enemies flank. Workin my way into position to tag people from outta nowhere. If I'm not gettin my butt into position, I'm not helping my team!

DO NOT long ball. Other players shouldn't lob paint either. 'Snipers' don't need to long-ball if they can get into effective range without bein seen. And they shouldn't long-ball if they're not in effective range because it'll give away their position. Good players ('sniper' or not) get into effective range before firin.

The differences between a 'sniper' & frontline player is the way they get into a firing position & what they do once they get there. In general, frontline players go from point A to point B as fast as possible. No stealth involved. 'Snipers' use stealth to get into a good position. From there, a 'sniper' fires a minimum amount of paint in order to stay undetected as long as possible. They also, if they're smart, wait for an opportune moment to fire (unlike a frontline player who usually fires as much as possible). Good 'snipers' get as close as possible before shootin.

'Snipers' hafta be aggressive to get into effective range. Too cautious & they wind up lobbing paint. Too slow & they wind 'late to the party'. Lobbing paint & bein 'late' are not effective styles of play for any player. Finding the right balance between movin fast & moving quietly takes practice. You can get the job done once you get the balance right. Every field I've played at has had a time limit of 20 mins or less.

I'm still very effective despite the time limit. Timed games affect 'snipers' the same way it does the everyone. Short games mean you have to take more chances. Longer games mean you have more time to work your plan. A 10 minute game is a bigger challenge for every player than a 20 minute game is.

It's really challenging to go off by yourself TOWARDS the other team. Getting into a good position without being seen takes a lot of skill. Bein able to eliminate people & they never know where or who it came from is a lot of fun.

But, just because I'm a 'sniper', that doesn't mean I'm not workin with my teammates to get the flag. My friends know what I'm doin & they'll let the rest of our team know what's what. I'm not out just to get my 'kills'. I'm tryin to eliminate opponents in order to help my team get the flag. I'm also tryin to confuse, frustrate & distract the other team (for the same reason).

Most people focus on what's in front of them. The most immediate threat. A good 'sniper' only needs the normal amount of distraction/lack of focus that a bunch of opponents in front of the other team, shootin 'em up, provides. It's very common to develop tunnel vision in the midst of a big shootout. If my team is in front of them, shooting it out, that's all I should need. The rest is up to me.

Staying hidden is a lot easier than people think. Usin paint with a dark colored shell helps to keep people from tracking your shot back to you. (There used to be paint that was half olive drab, half medium brown. I had a hard time tracking those balls in flight & I knew where they were goin!) Also, factor in the limits goggles put on peripheral vision to tracking a paintball in flight, from a direction you don't expect & when you don't expect someone to be in that part of the field & you have several dozen balls a second comin at you from a different direction (the rest of the 'snipers' team) & it's pretty tough to see it comin. The noise of dozens of paintguns firing & dozens of paintballs 'splatting' every second make it almost imposssible to hear where a single shot came from.

When you do start tagging people, many times the other team assumes that their teammates were taken out by the people in front of them. It's a lot harder to determine, in the middle of a big firefight, where a shot came from than people believe. If the other team does realize they were 'sniped', they still have to spot you. That gives you another opportunity to tag a few more. Even if they spot you, you should have taken out at least one of them. If they don't spot you, you have the chance to take out more & more (dependin on how long you go unnoticed).

Sooner or later, they will detect you. (That's almost for sure.) Then you either can slug it out, fade away or lead any pursuers on a wild goose chase (as the situation dictates). When I stay put, it's rock-n-roll time. I'm not afraid to mix it up. I just prefer 'sniping' because it's a hard fight when I'm all by myself.

I know I don't use classic military sniper tactics. I don't use stylized sniper tactics you'd see in movies either. I use paintball 'sniper' tactics! People that know (or have seen) my style of play, almost to a man, call me a 'sniper'. Stealth, accuracy, surprise, a minimum amount of paint, flanking/backdooring the other team & doin it all alone...that's a paintball 'sniper'.

[flyingdeadbody1]

ill give you a solution...

come down to my field, we can play on a concept field, speedball field, whatever you like. you use your pump, i use my mag.
1 on 1. Try to sneak around and "snipe" me. surrender me.
you will never get around back of me. before you get 30 feet away i will hammer on the trigger and put 10 balls on your Brass Eagle "super stealthy camoflauged sniper mask" :)

[Magadeth]

FDB, you still don't get it. Sniping is done on WOODED fields with brush and other natural cover. Nobody is saying that they snipe on a speedball field.

I have a solution for YOU. Go play in a scenario game or in a large rec game on a wooded field that isn't just a bunch of day-glo inflatable bunkers. Then come back and tell me there are no snipers.

Speedball is fine and woods play is fine, but they are different. All you are doing with your sniper bashing is alienating half the people who play paintball. Why are people so obsessed with this? Is it an insecure need to prove themselves right? Do they have nothing intelligent that they could contribute, so they just try to start flame wars?
I dont care if someone wanted to call themselves a paintball flying pig! As long as they purchased a marker paint and mask, they are supporting the sport just the same as anyone else. Why not give it a rest?:pissed:

[Incube]

Who the heck is this chris kid who is absest with this sniping fanasy. give it up snipeing is a joke its dosent exsist buy i bushy it will make the world happy.. go play some speed ball ... thanks

[Mephistopheles]

Again, I wish we keep this MATURE and with INTELLIGENCE Incube. I won't even comment on your post, because it not only lacks both, but it's also a very closed-minded childish reply.

If you want to, give actual reasons as to why snipers do not exist. Your comment lacks that, and just eliminates your credibility in this debate.

And people, again, it is almost impossible to play a sniper on a concept field. Which is why we're not talking about that, but rather Scenario and Big Games where the field is over 100acres and you need a map to find you way around.

[Incube]

Originally posted by Richy_C
I have a solution to the sniper debate



PLAY SPEEDBALL!!
hehe Richy is my mentor... oh and sniping dosent exsist. but people who say they just sniped someone usally mean they took one shot and shot the player out. other than that the word sniper is pointless to use.

[Mephistopheles]

Incube, you have to be the on the Mug rootbeer commercial. Because you are VERY thick-headed.

We've already proved and established that there ARE snipers in paintball, yet people like you are so ignorant and stubborn that you continue to spam crap on these boards with no meaning or thought always thinking that you are right.

Seriously, if you have a REAL comment to make... then do so. I'd like to see you say something with intelligence for once. Honestly, I would!

FACT is that there are snipers. Deal with it. You may not like it because you're upset that you were marked by one, but that's no reason to do what you continue to do.

And again, because of your lack of an ability to read previous posts, ther are NO snipers in SPEEDBALL, and a sniper does a LOT more than sit in one spot.

You think they'd screen these people before letting any idiot come on these boards.

[Magadeth]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles
Incube, you have to be the on the Mug rootbeer commercial. Because you are VERY thick-headed.



You think they'd screen these people before letting any idiot come on these boards.
I suggest you explore the use of the ignore function in user settings. Personally I prefer not to ignore people, because it breaks up the train of conversation in the threads. But some people have nothing to contribute and that may be the best way to deal with it.

[Mephistopheles]

Nah, I prefer not to ignore people. It's like closing out people's opinions so you can't hear other sides of the story, which in case would make you believe you're always right because you can't be proven wrong (since ignored people can't be heard). You know, like soccermoms!

But if I was to ignore anybody, it'd be Chris_2 before Incube... if anybody.

[Congobongo]

umm ok if there were snipers they would long ball, iv seen a "sniper" try to "snipe" me in a woods game, but since he was so far away all he could do is long ball at me and i just stood there picking up the paint that bounced off of me. Call the "snipers" ninjas thats what you guys are talking about, and having a pump gun to snipe with doesnt mean jack if you are good at sniping, elctro guns shoot the same distance as they do and they also can shoot with the same accuracy as long as they have the paint/barrel match.

[pr0kch0p]

i am wondering why soccermoms were even mentioned in this thread.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally posted by Congobongo
umm ok if there were snipers they would long ball...

Ummm ok, why would they HAVE to long ball? What is to say a sniper can't snipe you from 20 feet?

You do realize that distance has nothing to do with a snipers job, right?

*And as far as using a Pump, I'm talking about SC pumps. Because what is the point of using an electro w/ 13bps? That is not what a sniper does. Spray and pray is not sniping.

With SC pumps, you get usually only 10shots... that is it. And with that, you not only have a smaller-sized marker, but no hopper profile, no guppies slowing you down or sticking out, no big tank, and you can sneak and move a LOT easier. You'd be amazed how fast you can move when not carrying 20 pounds of equipment.

But again, anybody that is actually GOOD at this job will not need high rates of fire, a simple 10shot SC pump will do perfect. And with this, if intended on playing for a long time, you can carry maybe 5 10-round tubes and a few 12grams... that's nothing for weight.

[Blaster CA]

<<But again, anybody that is actually GOOD at this job will not need high rates of fire, a simple 10shot SC pump will do perfect.>>

Yeah, but it doesn't hurt to have a semi, just in case. Plus, it gives you the option to help your team mates out on the frontline if needs be. A stock class pump isn't much help on the frontline.

Besides, if you can 'snipe' just as well with a semi as a pump or stock class gun, why limit yourself self to a stockgun or pump? A 'sniper' with a semi is much more versatile. Bein a versatile player is always a good thing.

[Mephistopheles]

What, pumps do good in a firefight. I can get off about 4bps if I really try. But if you're coming as a re-enforcement, I doubt you'll be in the frontline. More or less trying to help give cover and such w/ those having semis and electros.

But with a semi, chances are you're going to have a hopper full of paint, and pods full of paint, and atleast a 12oz. tank.

Not only does this all add a lot of weight which will slow you down, make you stick out easier, and interfier with your maneuverability.... but it will also make you louder. Because paintballs rattle... and that is not a good thing to have when sniping.

[Mephistopheles]

C'mon, I'd prefer to have a real debate here. I keep hearing people saying there aren't any snipers all the time. Where you at, I want your opinions!

[Crime Dog]

I have to agree with Meth here. He's posted intelligent discussions here, that are hard to refute. (Meth, just remember, a lot of these guys are high-schoolers, and critical thinking is still developing for many of them. We can't expect that much outta them, sadly.)

To reinforce what Meth said...no one (that I've seen) has ever suggested that there are "snipers" in speedball. We all agree that's a silly notion.

But woods games are totally different. Being a "sniper" is all about stealth. I consider myself to play in a "sniper style". Do I call myself a "sniper"? No. But I DO sneak around, and come around on flanks and rears all the time. And I hide in a concealed position. I "sniped" a guy just two weeks ago by sneaking up behind him and forcing him to surrender. You can "snipe", and not even fire a shot.

Meth, let's face it, it's a losing battle to try to convince others that sniping is a legit tactic. Pretty soon, you'll have other users here cussing and swearing at you because you're trying to make the game "too tactical". Let's just play our style, and let the results speak for themselves.

Some guys are upfront players.
Some guys are flankers/tape runners.
Some guys use the backdoors and manage to get there without being seen...and they help win the game by catching the other team in a crossfire.

All legit tactics, all effective. So quit bashing and just play. It's a game for crying out loud... :rolleyes:

[Mephistopheles]

It's Meph... not meth. I don't want you to think my name is associated w/ a drug made in 1974.

[Crime Dog]

Whoops. Heh. Sorry about that.

[Jackel]

A "Sniper" by a tactical definition is a rifleman employed to harase and interdict enemy movement, eliminate command and control targets, and to inflict physcological damage on the moral of the enemy. From all doctrine released by several military branches, and nationalities this is the established norm. As for the employment of a "Long Range Rifleman" the norm is said "sniper" places himself in a position to observe and engage the enemy outside of effective return small arms range, in order to maximize the "snipers" combat life expectancy. A position outside of normal visual sighting range (250meters) but within the effective range of the weapon used (+/- 500meters) is again established as a norm.
This appears to be the differance, in paintball there is not a significant range to the markers so a visual contact to the shooter once he fires is almost a given. This basically makes a "Paintball Sniper" impossible by definition, since engagement, visual, and return fire range are all the same.

This is from a 23-year veteran of the Army and Army Rangers who had a lot of combat (two tours of duty I think) in Vietnam as a ranger who faced numerous snipers. Now, I think that a sniper is simply dumb. I use sniper tactics. I will go out and bust somebody but I'm nto a sniper. Paintball 'snipers' are simply newbies who are afraid to catagorize themselves as such. Yeah, that's about right. No offense, but it's true. Okay, you can be a great asset to your team by using guerilla warfare, camouflage, long-range shooting, and gathering intelligence, but you are not a sniper.

[Congobongo]

well said, by the way guys its paintball, not war, we are not playing war we are playing paintball

[FireViper]

Ok (hypothetical situation) what wouldyou call a military sniper who, when realizing someone is near his position trying to find him, shoots them from 50 feet away and doesn't reveal or compromise his position? That's right they are still a sniper. Do you know why? Because snipers differ from marksmen by one thing concealment. Sniping has to deal with getting behind opposing lines and taking shots from concealment therefore catching the opposing force off-guard. Don't believe me? grab that trusty Dictionary and look up "sniper" more than likely it will say something like this, "someone who shoots from a concelaed position" , not somone who shoots from a concealed position half a mile away. Like everyone else, I acknowledge sniping cannot exist in speedball and it would be ludicrous to try but in a scenario it works just fine. I'm not talking about "ambushing" I'm talking about people who work their way behind the opposing base and pick a target without the other team knowing until the first shot. Snipers don't stay in one postion wrong it would be stupid to, they shoot and usually will move enough so that they won't be shot from the incoming fire on their former position.

Congobongo well said, by the way guys its paintball, not war, we are not playing war we are playing paintball
just because its a military term doesn't mean people who use it in paintball are paramilitary troops paintball has many military terms: flank, assault, etc. and scenarios use even more of them. Even when we "shoot" someone with our "guns", we still not playing war so why would somone using a sound tactic as sniping be accused of it.

[Mephistopheles]

Ok, I can shoot from 20 feet and still be a sniper. Again, distance has nothing to do w/ a sniper in paintball.

You said a rifleman... exactly, a rifleman. Somebody using REAL guns. However, this is paintball with different equipment. So our range is slightly narrower. It's about them getting their objectives done, and to not be seen doing it.

Now with this whole war thing... ummm, so that must mean that policemen on a rooftop deployed as a sniper is a war? No, it's not a war, but a tactical maneuver.

And who said anything about playing a sniper for the basis of acting out military fantasies? Why can't somebody just take the position because they like it, and are good at it and not be associated w/ the military?

And in case you haven't noticed, about 95% of people playing recball and scenarios wear BDU's, so are they also doing this in a war-type mannor?

[ubdead]

Hey meth, just wondering, I have never seen someone with a pump shoot 4bps.

Well, what I mean is, I've seen people do it, but not without sacrificing a lot of the accuracy that pump players are so proud of.

[DasBaldDog]

That's it. I'm sick and tired of this. The only thing that been determined that there is no sniper on a speedball field. You're not going any further and this always turns into spam and flaming, so I'm closing it.