So I call my local pro shop & he says antisiphon & regs wont stop Co2 from getting in

[Steven22]

He says antisiphon & regs won't stop liquid from getting into my Spyder Imagine."Eletric trigger guns fire to fast & a reg & antisiphon can't stop the gun from freezing up.the reg will just freeze up as well"

I called to get a price to instal antsiphon on my Co2 tank & he said,they don't get much of a request for those anymore.I asked what regs they sold & he said I should just switch to nitro.

My plan was to switch to nitro later this fall but just wanted to antisiphon my tank for now to cut back on any liquid getting into my Imagine.

He works at a very big local field so he should know better,I think he was just being lazy & wanted to make a big sale on a nitro tank? or is there something to what he said?

[snipinhick]

I think your right, he was after your money for the N2 tank.

[VeNoM]

Ya, but he is in some sense right because there is no way to guarantee you won't get liquid in the marker since it is co2. It would run completely fine but if you are shooting fast I would not be surprised if it did freeze a seal in your gun or reg... A good inline reg and anti-siphoning your tank will cost as much as a small nitro tank...

[DGremlin]

Anti-syphon work to a fair degree, and the reg can act to a fair degree as a xchamber, so the liquid flowing through your imagine is reduced.
The main culprit for freezing is the liquid.

A Good reg can cost you the same as a small, preset HP system, and the reg is included, but I have gone the same route as you want to, I got a nice reg off e-bay at a really good price, and the anti-syphon had it installed, although not perfect it worked well enough, and now that I am on HP, I still have the second Reg, since I use it to adjust the PSI due to my HP Bottle reg being preset...

In other words go the route you want to go.

[Shadow221]

Actually, the guy at your proshop is right, just didn't give you the whole story. Anti-siphon will help prevent freezing, but it can still happen. A reg will not do anything to help prevent freezing. Just get an X-chamber. Anti-siphon and an x-chamber will be the best setup for preventing liquid co2 from freezing up your gun.

[chibissj]

yup anti siphon just helps keep the liquid, out it's not 100% foolproof or no one would buy n2. and the reg is just for keeping the pressure constant anti+ reg = good for a range of fps, but not for keeping 100% out , and nothingkeeps 100% out except for not using co2 at all.

[Vaypourus]

I would start saving for a nitro/HPA setuup now. You can get a cheap tank for around $80; a reg alone could cost that and wouldn't work as well. Even if you get an anti-syphon tank and a good expansion chamber, with all of the fittings and lines it would cost about the same.

[No_DAMN_NAMES]

A regulator and Anti Siphon work for me perfectly. But its different in your situation.

[Mrfxiitxx]

I've never had a problem with my marker freezing up while using Co2(before I upgraded to N2).

But as most people have been telling you reg+anti siphon = cheap N2 tank.

Big thing is get a good reg and if you want you could run A/S co2 forever. Its just prefernce really. I've seen guys with impulses pulling 12+bps to shoot through half a case on Co2 and their markers never froze up. I doubt you will have any problems with freezing your marker up if you line the anti shipon up and use a good reg.

Mr.Fixitx

[w0rr]

I suggest just go to nitro. May take some time to save up $$, but you'll spend just as much on a expansion chamber/ reg, and anti-siphon.

I got a nice sized fiberwrapped crossfire nitro tank for $95 shipped w/ a cover (63/3k) If you get a 48/3k or around there, and if it's pure energy, you could get it for 50-70$. Pure Energys tend to be cheaper when resold, compared to Crossfires or Nitro Ducks or brands like that.

[Cuervo]

Pure Energies also tend to suck compared to Crossfire, Centerflag, and Nitro Duck.

Get Nitro and then a new gun. That'll fix all your problems.

[w0rr]

Originally posted by Cuervo
Pure Energies also tend to suck compared to Crossfire, Centerflag, and Nitro Duck.


Yep thats why theyre cheaper. Seems to me he can only afford something cheap right now.

[Cuervo]

Well that's counterintuitive. "Since getting nitro is better, just do that" and then "This tank sucks, but its cheaper; just do that." C'mon, what a load of crap. If you want him to be happy with your advice, he needs to get a GOOD tank with a GOOD reg. Size and pressure is debatable (though I'd reccomend 4500psi for sure), but quality is not. You didnt' advise him to get an expansion chamber, then trade it for a reg later; don't tell him to get a crappy tank and trade it for a good one later.

[DGremlin]

Well that's counterintuitive. "Since getting nitro is better, just do that" and then "This tank sucks, but its cheaper; just do that." C'mon, what a load of crap. ... he needs to get a GOOD tank with a GOOD reg. ... (though I'd reccomend 4500psi for sure), ... [/B]

Which is exactly why I agre with what he is doing, getting a good HP system ( bottle and reg ) is not a cheap matter, and the money he will spend on an anti-syphon ( $10 if ) and medium class ( $30 )reg ( which he could always sell on ) is minimal really.

A good 4500 bottle wont go for peanuts, no matter where you look.


I say stick with your plan, is may be more expensive in the long run, but it means when you get to buy your HP bottle you wont be buysing the cheapest bottle you can get.

PS: A regulator can act as a psuedo X-chamber, so why waste money on one at all ?

[w0rr]

Originally posted by Cuervo
don't tell him to get a crappy tank and trade it for a good one later.

why not? thats what im in the proccess of doing, and im perfectly happy. its my advice, i think he'd be happy. He says he wants an upgrade (either xchamber/reg+anti, or nitro) asap. I reccommend him to go straight to the hpa, no messy co2 crap, especially since the cold seasons are coming quickly. If he doesn't have enough money for a good hefty sized, good brand, tank, then why not get a small cheap one to replace his co2, and he said he was going to save up $$ for HPA anyway, so why not save up for a better hpa while already having one. Seems like good advice to me.

[Cuervo]

Because having a Pure Energy regulator isn't really much better than having a good CO2 reg and Anti-Siphon. I'd quit before I'd use Pure Energy.

[Mcot2]

Dude shut the heck up. Prue energy works fine. I got my PE 49/3k 3 years ago for 69 dollers, brand new. It was a great tank for the price, a great tank. He does not need a super tank, all he needs is a good tank and even the crappiest n2 tank is 300 times better than any CO2 setup.

[Assass!n]

Originally posted by Vaypourus
I would start saving for a nitro/HPA setuup now. You can get a cheap tank for around $80; a reg alone could cost that and wouldn't work as well. Even if you get an anti-syphon tank and a good expansion chamber, with all of the fittings and lines it would cost about the same.

:nod:

Reg - 50 bucks
Anti syphon - ~10, and you'll probably want an on off, so that would be another 10.
Total= ~70

47/30 PMI Steel nitro ~70 bucks.

Nitro all the way, dude!

[bvmjethead]

Too many people on this site think that if you don't have the latest, greatest, mose expensive, name brand gear you have worthless gear.

My Spyder works great and I can't wait to splat some dudes with Imp's this weekend with it.

Dude,

Get a co2 tank, make sure to get the antisiphon tube installed correctly which means bringing your gun to the shop with the tank, have a decent on/off valve installed on the tank as well, then just go have fun.

Sure HPA is better............but it's going to cost you.

Will Co2 work? It's been working for millions of people for BILLIONS of shot's in all seasons.

Buy what you can afford and have fun.

[Cuervo]

No, sorry, Pure Energy sucks. I doubt you can tell the difference between a good reg and a bad reg if you think your PE doesn't blow.

If he spends $70 on his setup now ($50 for a used Torpedo and $20 for anti-syphon), he loses $20 when he decides to get a nitro tank in a couple months (since the Torpedo will still be usable.) If he buys a sucky tank now (like anything made of steel, or made by PMI, or any combination of the two) and later gets a better/bigger one, he's out the cost of his sucky tank. If he sells it, he gets severely diminished value. If he keeps it, it's still not as effective as having a good regulator.

Sure, it means he waits for nitro. It's not like his gun is dying on CO2.

[Vaypourus]

Originally posted by DGremlin
Well that's counterintuitive. "Since getting nitro is better, just do that" and then "This tank sucks, but its cheaper; just do that." C'mon, what a load of crap. ... he needs to get a GOOD tank with a GOOD reg. ... (though I'd reccomend 4500psi for sure), ...

Which is exactly why I agre with what he is doing, getting a good HP system ( bottle and reg ) is not a cheap matter, and the money he will spend on an anti-syphon ( $10 if ) and medium class ( $30 )reg ( which he could always sell on ) is minimal really.

PS: A regulator can act as a psuedo X-chamber, so why waste money on one at all ? [/B]

What reg are you going to get for $30? A reg will be inferior to an expansion chamber anyways...liquid CO2 needs room to expand into gas (which is what an expansion chamber will allow) where as the expansion room in a reg is minimal. I am not, and never will be impressed with the Palmer Stabilizer as far as its liquid CO2 blocking power; I first hand saw how much liquid a stab will let through. My buddy's spyder seized up completely ther was so much ice inside. That was almost as humorous as all of the snow that was shooting out of the barrel becuase the o-rings had cracked.

Even a cheap nitro tank will run more consistant, cleaner, warmer, and flow higher than a CO2 tank. No worries about frozen anything. Nobody said he needs a high end tank; it is a Spyder (no offense, just pointing out it is a cheaper gun).

I agree that the PMI tanks are not the best, but a crossfire tank can be had for about the same price, and has a superior reg.

My thought is, if you are going to upgrade eventually, why not save the money you have to get a better system? Buying a quick fix is counter-productive in the long run.

[DGremlin]

Lets just put this down to 2 different schools of thought, and maybe a third somewhere, since so many believe that going nitro from the start is better, while I and others reckon that getting a really good Nitro setup later is a much better idea, of course there is always the "why upgrade " school of thought, but they very quiet it would seem ... :)

[xm65]

you have a spyder......... co2 wont hurt it......... just play on and have a good time.......
do not frett.........

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally posted by xm65
you have a spyder......... co2 wont hurt it.........

Ya.. I was thinking the same thing.
Liquid CO2 will NEVER FREEZE A BLOWBACK. They love CO2, and can run it all day and night. I actually run all my blowbacks on SIPHON TANKS and have for the last 13 years.

The purpose of the anti-siphon is to just keep liquid out of the reg.
The purpose of the reg is to prevent spikes and keep velocity more stable.
The purpose of the EC is to prevent rapid-fire shootdown when liquid co2 condenses in the valve.

NONE of these things are needed for a blowback for normal play. They would be a waste. Anybody that tells you CO2 will hurt a Spyder is an idiot.
However, if your playing tournaments, the anti-siphon/reg combo is nice in prevent spikes that might cause chrono penalties.
The EC will make the gun slightly more effecient, but is mostly a waste since it will be useless when you upgrade to Nitro someday.

My advice is to NOT waste your money on anything right now. Just have fun with the spyder. If you put on an HPA tank, you would NOT notice any difference.
So... don't bother with that HPA tank until you buy a gun that NEEDs one to operate.

Nick

[w0rr]

Originally posted by HP_Lovecraft


Ya.. I was thinking the same thing.
Liquid CO2 will NEVER FREEZE A BLOWBACK. They love CO2, and can run it all day and night.




Wow. if Fact was a planet, you'd be in a different galaxy.

co2 freezes anything and everything. it froze my spyder, it will freeze his spyder. it will freeze your spyder. co2 freezes. co2 is cold liquid. thats to put it in basics, but its true. even with anti in it, it won't prevent 100% of liquid from getting in. so guess what? co2 will freeze it.

hpa on the other hand will not freeze. so for all those reasons and more, hpa - no matter the brand- will be MUCH wiser than trying to improve your co2 quality. enough said.

[DGremlin]

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135936

Browse this ...

[w0rr]

Originally posted by HP_Lovecraft

If you put on an HPA tank, you would NOT notice any difference.


Dont insult everyones intelligence here. hpa will have a HUGE impact.

....ugggh... too many nooblified posts... i'm gona throw up..

[w0rr]

Originally posted by DGremlin
http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135936

Browse this ...


Good thread. But mainly its good if he wants to stick to co2.

Is co2 really that bad? No.
Is HPA really that good? Yes.

[3Fingered Jack]

Originally posted by Cuervo
No, sorry, Pure Energy sucks. I doubt you can tell the difference between a good reg and a bad reg if you think your PE doesn't blow.

Please tell me why my PE tank sucks.

[Cuervo]

1. Horible flow/recharge. This is the most limiting factor; try shooting fast for a prolonged period of time. Don't blame your gun.

2. Questionable consistency (I'll ignore the PMI/PE regs shipped on the 3A tanks and call it "questionable")

3. Bad Quality/Price ratio. In the same price range, you can get Crossfire, Nitro Duck, and Centerflag with guaranteed and proven quality (well, I'll debate Crossfire... but still.)

[w0rr]

Originally posted by Cuervo
1. Horible flow/recharge. This is the most limiting factor; try shooting fast for a prolonged period of time. Don't blame your gun.

2. Questionable consistency (I'll ignore the PMI/PE regs shipped on the 3A tanks and call it "questionable")

3. Bad Quality/Price ratio. In the same price range, you can get Crossfire, Nitro Duck, and Centerflag with guaranteed and proven quality (well, I'll debate Crossfire... but still.)

Have you ever used one? Maybe you just got a bad luck-of-the-draw. I know lots of my friends are happy with their PE's and the tanks are treating their guns and owners just fine. My crossfire is awesome..

[Vaypourus]

Cuervo was pretty much on as far as the PE tanks are concerned....with one exception.

1. I wouldn't say they have horrible recharge; Bulldog one tanks have horrible recharge. PE tanks have a poorer recharge than most other tanks, which is partly why they are not a great choice for a high end, high ROF gun.

PMI's customer service is pretty good, and the tanks themselves are pretty well made. Thier regulator just seems to be a step behind most other tanks. For the nearly the same price, you can pick up a tank that is a proven performer.

[3Fingered Jack]

Nooooo my beautiful post.

I don't need or want a tank with a high recharge because my gun doesn't shoot fast. Just struck a nerve when Cuervo basically said "You're a noob if you think your PE tank is good." It's sufficient for my needs, and I've never had a PE tank crap out on me. Enough said.

[Vaypourus]

I didn't realize how OT this thread got....ouch!

Just a side note; a PE tank is a great tank if it works for you. If it works, then keep it!

I just wouldn't suggest a matrix owner to go and buy one...

[HP_Lovecraft]

Originally posted by w0rr


co2 freezes anything and everything. it froze my spyder, it will freeze his spyder. it will freeze your spyder. co2 freezes. co2 is cold liquid. thats to put it in basics, but its true. even with anti in it, it won't prevent 100% of liquid from getting in. so guess what? co2 will freeze it.


First, liquid CO2 is "room temp" when in the bottle. In fact, above 88 degrees, it turns into a gas.
Yes, when you rapid fire, the tank gets cold, and the gun gets cold. If it gets cold enough, the tank won't have enough pressure to recock.
However, the "average rec player" NEVER shoots his gun fast enough to do that.

Second, the liquid CO2 itself will never harm a spyder. I ran my spyder on a SIPHON tank for many years. Not an anti-siphon, but a siphon tank which FORCED liquid into the gun.
This way, it would work in sub-zero temps, and could NEVER spike or freeze a tank.

What exactly does the CO2 freeze in a blowback? There is no fragile regs or pneumatics. Yes, the gun might get cold if liquid expands in the valve... so?

Originally posted by w0rr

Dont insult everyones intelligence here. hpa will have a HUGE impact.


What is the HUGE impact HPA will have for the average rec player?
More expensive?
Less availibitly?
More maintenance?
Less effecient?

Yes, FPS will be slightly more consisitent, and you could rapid fire with less shootdown, and you could play in sub-zero weather with fewer problems.
BUT the average rec player doesnt care about these things. He simply wants the gun to work when he pulls the trigger.

This is the concept that many of you are missing.
The average player would not notice any difference when using an HPA tank.
Yes, the average tournament player would notice a HUGE difference, but thats not the issue.

For me, I use HPA for all my electros at tournaments, but I'll use siphon tanks for all my pumps/blowbacks that I use for recball. Its simply a matter of weighing the positives and negatives.

Nick