Is it possible to make and low end semi as good as a High end?

[Incube]

How is this possible..how do you go about doing so? Is it really on the performance level as a high end? What low ends are easyer to make high end performance? This is something i am interested in finding out..since i hear somany people say my tippman with all the upgrades is better than your cocker, or my tricked spyder and so on. Plz fill me in on your beliefs

[tewes]

Yeah man the ACI Sonic Conversion makes an F4 a fully electronic marker.

[Magadeth]

I voted yes, but the thing is that it will cost you so much that you are better off selling your lowend gun, and buying a high end gun. Then you can upgrade that and make a truly sick marker!

I have a friend that spent about $800+ when all was said and done on his spyder. It shot great!, but eventually it broke anyways when the cheapo kingman welds came apart. Its fixed now, but he has shelved it in favor of a mostly stock mag I picked up for him for $300.

[Ebonclaw]

Well....take one of the good guns that Kingman makes...say...a Shutter like mine. Add HPA. A spring kit and new valve. Delrin bolt. New drop (maybe CP lightning...sexy). And a good e-frame. Throw on a barrel like a Bigshot....maybe even a ceramic would work....you'll have something that will shoot at the operating pressure of an Impulse, as fast as any hopper can load, as accurate as you paint/barrel match, and you'll have a much simpler gun than a cocker, so no timing crap, a gun similar in price to a tricked mag, a gun that has an operating pressure around an Impulse, and a gun capable of firing as fast as is legally allowed, not to mention the burst modes, turbo, and full auto that the e-frame offers. All I need for my Shutter is the E-frame and a valve. Spyder's e-frame comes with a new no wear bolt. As for the crappy kingman welds, well, you don't have to deal with them on the new e-frame.

[TheSickness]

you put like $800 into your spyder to make it as good as a good stock high end. or you can just buy a mid heigh ebd gun like a stock 2k1 vert feed cocker trik it out and make it so much better then your $1000 spyder

[Ebonclaw]

Actually, an $800 Spyder is going to be tought to beat. It performs right up there with Angels from what I've heard. I mean, if it's accuracy you want, you got it. If it's speed you want, how fast can your loader handle? 16 bps? Great, set the e-frame to as high as it'll go. Shoots as fast an Angel. Is it price you want? Your $800 Spyder will perform with that tricked cocker or Adrenaline Angel. When I get my Spyder's e-frame, I'll let you know how it does.

[pr0kch0p]

lol spyders vs angels.

angels have very little kick if any, cant say that for many spyders. angels are EXTREMELY reliable, cant say that for a lot of spyders. angels are THE most advanced marker, cant say that about spyders.

there is NO way i would take any spyder over an angel. unless the spyder was like platinum and diamonds where it would have a substantial monetary value

[NICKYB]

Ebonclaw, any spyder is still a blow back, not fully electronic(excluding the Em1, which is trash from what i hear), and im not aguing, but if an 800 dollar spyder performs up there with 1200 dollar angels, why dont"the pros" have totally tricked spyders?

[Codestar20]

Yes, I think it is possible to have a totally tricked Spyder perform as good as a high end electro. Just get the best LP parts. Best barrel for the paint. A nice e-frame like the hyperframe. If it's closed bolt you want, get the new Deadlywind system for Spyders. It will make the open bolt spyder a closed bolt like a cocker. But with all the money you spend tricking it out you might as well just buy a Timmy or something.

[elTwitcho]

Wow, you guys act like you've never shot a spyder if you thinkit'll be perfect with some upgrades. A Spyder has (just by design flaw) a whole ton of blowback going up your feed tube. This slows your ROF down considerably and increases your chance of chopping. There isnt an upgrade in the world that gets rid of this blowback with exception perhaps of the closed bolt kit for the Spyder.

[magicsly1]

I'm with twitch on this one. No matter how much you upgrade a spyder ( as long as its based on spyder operation ) it will never be a high end gun. It still has flaws. Your ratting the spyder with an angel!!! An angel is made for electronic use and a spyder is not with the execption of the em1 (which still has flaws, but hey it was their first electro). I don't know if you people are just trying to assure yourselves that you have made a good investment in a spyder or just think you have a spyder better than a angel, but 4 people on the team i'm on have angels and they will kick any spyder's but. Spyders are limited and thats when its time to get a better marker, a high end marker.

[frenchtoastdude]

Not likely but I voted Yes cause it depends on the 2 guns there are.

[CARBON]

WEll, not a tricked out high end semi, but I have a tricked out spyder, and I match up to angels, I play people with angels and sometimes hit them, no hopper ( except warp) can keep up with 15 paintballs second. My boo-yaah goes up to 15 and my hopper cant keep up to that I put it on 12 and turbo mode, and I kick ***

[Richy_C]

You use turbo? What a cheater, no skill there. Ebon, no CP drops on the spyder, only spyder drops.

There's a reason these guns don't match up to 300 and uppers, THEY WEREN'T MADE TOO! They were made to get you shooting 2-3 bps and get into the game. Why buy a 100 baser, and expect it to live up to a 500 baser? or a 400? You shouldn't. The purpose of these guns is to get you on the field and on your way, as long as company x gets their money, you'll get a working gun, with all hopes you'll stay in the game.

[CARBON]

I switch it i and out of turbo depends on situation, but I barely have a spyder anymore, I am planning on getting a new bolt, and there is a bob long replacement body you can get for it.

[VeNoM]

exactly, alot of people seem to think that if you have a $100 spyder and put $400 into its going to be as good as a $500 doallr gun (like a nice cocker or nice bushy) sure the gun is going to perform ok but its not going to be equal to a high end gun (IMHO) i mean, for how much it would have costed for me to put a boo-yah on my old shutter, i got a sweet tricked bushy which is on a completely different level than a spyder with boo yah . . . IMO putting upgrades that cost more than the gun is a waste of money.

[CARBON]

I wish I would have gotten a bush I still love my spyder though:love: :love:

[Richy_C]

It's perfect to like your low cost semi and if it suites your needs, great, but there is no reason other than ***** envy to think your marker will youpreform others of higher quality.

[ds613]

Nope, IMHO a blowback will never be as good as an electropnuematic or cocker.

[Ebonclaw]

Funny....I've never had a problem with blowback. They cut a place in the powerfeed on the Shutter to let the blowback escape. I've never seen a ball "blow back" in my clear elbow. I suppose I could drill holes in the elbow and it would reduce it even more though.
As for kick, well, kick is something that doesn't matter too much to me. My Shutter may not have the low kick factor of an Angel, but I can keep it steady enough to send each ball in about the same place, with barrel being the only accuracy factor. The only reason people think they can't perform with Angels and the like is because people don't want to admit you can start with a gun that cheap. They don't want their $1800 Adrenaline to be matched by an $800 Spyder. That Spyder will shoot as fast as legally possible with an E-frame and that's all you need it to do. BTW, so what if it's open bolt? Warpig did a test between open and closed and they found virtually no difference in performance. Closed bolt is just something companies like to brag about because it makes their guns different from a Spyder or whatever.

As far as Spyder vs Timmy goes, I think the Timmy has some nice features the tricked Spyder that doesn't have (anti-chop eye etc) that may make it perform better, but if you take two people of equal skill and throw them on a field and give one a tricked Spyder and one a Timmy, it's gonna be a damn close fight.

Personally, I prefer to "build" my guns to their own specifications rather than buy a gun where everything is done for you already. It's a little cheaper, you don't have to fork $1000 all at once, and your tricked Spyder will shoot as fast as legally allowed. Guarenteed.
Like I said before, if accuracy is all in paint and barrel, then it'll be just as accurate as that Angel.

The only difference between a gun built to perform and one already made to perform may be the "kick". This is what really makes an Angel sweet. Although if you really wanted, to reduce kick, you could get the closed bolt kit for your SPyder. Anyone know if it'll work with an E-frame?

[elTwitcho]

I own a Spyder, I moved up from one and I kno damn well it's limitations as well. Regardless of how many holes you putin the powerfeed, if air blows up through the breach with the bolt open even the slightest amount, it's gonna push that ball. Ever chop with your spyder, well guess why...

[Incube]

I made i good thread for once my god.... anyhow i am with tiwcho on this one he knows what he is talking about and think about it...You get a spyder and an e-frame it is not making it shoot faster it just give diferant systems and setups it may shoot as fast as the gun can really go...What i am saying is an e-frame really just brings the gun up to its full potential to shoot 10 balls per second or whatever, it dosent make it as good as a angel or shocker even it makes the gun as good as it gets!

Thats my 2 cents worth.

[Richy_C]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
The only reason people think they can't perform with Angels and the like is because people don't want to admit you can start with a gun that cheap. They don't want their $1800 Adrenaline to be matched by an $800 Spyder
They have nothing to worry about. No spyder will match an AA. You want a gun that's built to your specs? buy a cocker. Want speed? buy an electro. And that also shows me you lack the knowledge of what a powerfeed does. And the fact that you compare a Adreniline to a spyder is amusing, read my last post.. The reason you don't have blow back problems? You don't shoot fast enough for them.

Once again, these guns were not made to be super markers. Do you buy a Honda and expect it to out speed a porsche?

[DasBaldDog]

Actually: Yes. lol

All of my friends that race (with the exception of 1) run Civics and Accords and they can whup some Viper and Porsche boo-tay. I'm not joking.


Going back to the direct argument.
No matter how much you try, a Spyder will NEVER match an Angel. You can put a ELCD frame on it ALL you want but it's STILL gonna be a mechanical blowback. Case closed.

[Richy_C]

ok there buddy, i was making a general referance, most people would get. Ok, porshe and toyota.

[DasBaldDog]

That will work. lol.

Man that would be funny to watch, a Porsche and a Toyota.

[Incube]

Originally posted by Incube
I made i good thread for once my god.... anyhow i am with tiwcho on this one he knows what he is talking about and think about it...You get a spyder and an e-frame it is not making it shoot faster it just give diferant systems and setups it may shoot as fast as the gun can really go...What i am saying is an e-frame really just brings the gun up to its full potential to shoot 10 balls per second or whatever, it dosent make it as good as a angel or shocker even it makes the gun as good as it gets!

Thats my 2 cents worth.
some one read this it makes good since

[Richy_C]

Makes good since, thats hilarious

[Codestar20]

The closed bolt system for spyders won't work with an e-frame. The system is just like a cocker in that you have to time it and everything. I agree that an Adrenaline Angel will out perform a tricked spyder just simply because a spyder was not made to perform at an $800++ level. But it is possible to make a Spyder a really nice tournament level marker.

[Incube]

What the hell are you talking about the e-frame works it was made by kingman for spyders...

[VeNoM]

he is talking about the rail kit for spyders that makes it closed bolt . . .

[Incube]

It still works........:rolleyes:

Sorry i didnt notice you said cloesd bolt i read to fast.

[DontKillWhitey]

IS it possible to make a pinto as good as a lets say viper?

[Richy_C]

Originally posted by Codestar20
possible to make a Spyder a really nice tournament level marker.
Possible? yes, worth it? far from
No cubes, the eframes work w/open bolt only, read up on this stuff. I just don't see the point in spending 1200 on a spyder to get it to work to point x, when a 800 auto thingy do will do just as well or better

[Cloud-VII]

Hey, I just have a question.
In the "Blowback guns" forum I started a thread asking what defines a blowback gun, and through out it people were saying that it actually doesnt make a real difference. One person said that WARPIG did a test and concluded that there was no difference in performance between the two.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml

so if this is true, then you should have no problem getting a "low cost" gun up to being able to shoot as fast as an angel because they both can only go as fast as you can load them.

Im sure an Angel would stomp on a tricked Spyder if you were able to load it 50 bps, but you cant, so it doesnt really matter.

[Cloud-VII]

And yes, it is possible to make a pinto as good as a viper?

A pinto can handle much better then a viper stock. So if you totally gut it and put in a V12 with unGodly torque flowing freely with Nos, then it would go faster. Especially since two grown men could lift a pinto.

But to do it you would have to take out the backseat and put the engine there. Then add a new transmition, drive shaft, and put in a mother of a roll cage because an engine that size would rattle the frame to peices.

My uncle has a Jeep that can run the quarter in about 6 seconds. And thats on dirt, not on the street. He used to race 4x4 drag races and was first in the state for years. He has tropies that are as tall as I am.
My point is you can get any car as fast as a Viper. It just might cost the same as buying one.

[PBSyndicate]

I honestly don’t think a Spyder or any blowback for that matter can be as accurate as a closed bolt or. closed bolt pneumatic. Here’s my explanation:

Blowback: A blowback marker uses the air released not only to shoot the paintball, but to “blow back” the bolt so it recocks. Also, the bolt is not closed when the marker is shot. The bolt moves forward to put the ball into the chamber, the front end of the bolt closes the chamber, and then the air is released. The ball is moving at the time it gets into the system.

Closed bolt: The ball is in the Chamber and the forward end of the bolt has the chamber sealed and the ball is not being pushed forward, but the air is released though the bolt.

A closed bolt marker has more accuracy than an open bolt marker because it is less likely for the ball to be in motion when the released air hits the ball. The marker you use makes a dramatic difference; the upgrades make a slight difference. That is why I feel that it makes more sense to buy a high-end semi than an upgraded entry level one.

[Codestar20]

I agree with you Richy. It is just not worth it to trick a Spyder when you can get a gun that was made to shoot 13+ bps such as a bushy or timmy. And Incube, the rail closed bolt system won't work with any e-frames at this time. Althought can't you send a cocker to centerflag and have them install the hyperframe on it??? I think Prokchop said that somewhere. Take a deep breath Incube, you seem a little uptight...;)

[DontKillWhitey]

I wasnt really concerned with if you could or not but why would you? SO you can say u have a souped PINTO?! With all the money u put into the pinto or blowback u could put into the viper or highend gun.

[Ebonclaw]

Granted that it IS a blowback marker, but there are kits available to make it closed bolt. All I'm saying is if you take one of those kits, put on a nice e-frame and a good feeder, it will perform very nicely. And there's no doubt about it. What about those kids you here about with e-frames and a Richcohet that turn their guns up to 13 bps, no chops? A Spyder with the closed bolt mod and an e-frame will perform much like a Mag with an electro frame. It's been done. If the e-frame didn't help performance, no one would buy them. Maybe I should retract my statement about AAs, but they will still perform quite nicely and be able to put up a good fight. I dunno about you, but even if I had an Angel, I'd be a bit wary of someone with a Spyder and e-frame.
Finally, you don't need your Spyder to acheive 17 bps. That's not even legal. It WILL match the maximum 12-13 bps rule that most fields have though, and that's been proven.

[Richy_C]

Still, i ask why you would do it. There's no point. Want to prove you know how to waste money? go buy a Zap electro. This thread is pointless. I know a 450 mod that could improve your spyder alot, but it needs nitro. It's called a bushmaster. So what if eframes "improve" preformance. Why run a gun made for 3 bps at 17? It will futch up, blow orings and have problems. I've yet to hear of a highend gun come apart at the wields.

[Incube]

Yeah i am with him on that. There is no point in putting so much money on something that wont really be as good as a high end gun anyway...i think selling you lowend and saving is the best bet. SELL AND SAVE

[Ebonclaw]

I dunno. Maybe a true electro is better. But I think building a Spyder or something is kinda fun. I'm gonna get SINcustom to do their "Crow" design with a blood red to black fade for $55. It'll make my Shutter sell for another 100 easy if I DO want to get a new electro. Besides, I think Spyders are just generally attractive guns. Though I like those Darkys and Element Angels too........

[VeNoM]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
Granted that it IS a blowback marker, but there are kits available to make it closed bolt. All I'm saying is if you take one of those kits, put on a nice e-frame and a good feeder, it will perform very nicely. And there's no doubt about it. What about those kids you here about with e-frames and a Richcohet that turn their guns up to 13 bps, no chops? A Spyder with the closed bolt mod and an e-frame will perform much like a Mag with an electro frame.

didnt we go over that you cant do that mod and get an e-frame? and it is completly pointless to do that, i thought about doing things like that to my shutter but i sold it and with the money i was going to spend i upgrades i bought the gun in my sig which is much better than a spyder and e-frame will ever be. but honestly it doesnt really matter what you shoot, as long as you have fun ;)

[SEPHIROTH_086]

Hehehe this brings back memories, I remember when I was gonna trick out my Spyder, I posted a thread any1 remember? Well anyways yeah I was going to but then decided to just get a cocker, I CANT WAIT FOR MY AUTOCOCKER coming in December!!!

[Mushi]

I hope I'm not going to draw a lot of flames from this, but here goes...

I think a super tricked out spyder would work comparably with most high end semis out there. Reasons being:
Trigger pull: e-frame would make it electro short. ROF shouldn't be a problem.
Blowback: With a warp feed, it shouldn't make a difference, right? Also, someone on the blowback or spyder forum actually showed a video of their TL+ sucking IN air. (A piece of kleenex got sucked into the chamber.) That was one shot though, so maybe multiple shots might cause blowback. But again, with positive force feed...can't imagine it'd be a problem.
Consistency/kick: maybe it won't be kick free, but an LP spyder can't kick too hard. And lets face it, its a paintball marker....we're not exactly talking about a rifle. As long as the FPS of the marker can be kept within a 5+/- feet per second range, consisitency or accuracy shouldn't be a problem. Though can it? That's where the blowback performance issue MIGHT be limiting. Anyone w/a tricked spyder care to comment? A lot of that consistency has to do with paint/barrel match too though, not just operation of the marker.

Why would anyone do it? Going back to the car analogy... some people like a tricked out car...my friend has (I don't know much about cars) some sort of upgraded vette engine in a camaro, w/nitro button thingie etc...he revs the engine next to someone with a stock vette, they laugh, and then wonder what happened when his "camaro" outperforms them. Obviously a lot of work and money goes into a tricked out spyder to make it perform even close to a stock high end semi, but the end result is the person with the tricked out spyder has a unique looking gun that performs well and was made to his or her standards. It might not ever be as good as a completely tricked angel, but at the very least the tricked spyder has some character in it, rather than a toy someone spent a thousand dollars on. Like Sephiroth, "I was going to, but it took too much work and money, so I bought an autococker." (Nothing wrong with that, I'll never trick out my spyder, eventually I want a palmer marker...or an emag:love: Just saying a tricked out spyder is much harder to come by than a stock autococker due to those two reasons.)

I haven't shot any high end gun or a tricked out spyder. So maybe I'm wrong. I'm just giving my two-pence. Richy...don't say anything is pointless. That's pretty harsh to anyone who's spent a lot of time and money upgrading their spyders. Paintball is pointless in the first place. After getting enough to eat and a place to live and maybe a spouse, everything else is change. If people want to trick out a spyder, that's their perrogative, no matter how much money they spend. If we all wanted something worth spending money on, chances are we wouldn't be spending it on 5 cent jello balls. :) In the end its all entertainment and the joy that person gets out of shooting their marker.

[Ded]

yeah, with the money i've poured into my spyder i could have had a really tricked out autococker 2001. but oh well. now when i finally do get a cocker, probably in about 2 years, i'll have a really nice backup marker!!!

[Q98]

back to the car thing, those japanese cars have major problems when suped up because the dinky 4 cylinders have too many components that are too weak to take the strain of 400+ horsepower, and it is front wheel drive, which is crap for racing. This is just like your little spyder argument, if you take the most tricked angel(like a dodge viper) in the world and put it against the most tricked spyder(like a civic), the angel will KILL the spyder.

[Ded]

ahhhh... you make an interesting point, i guess

[disorder27]

because the dinky 4 cylinders have too many components that are too weak to take the strain of 400+ horsepower, and it is front wheel drive, which is crap for racing.

For the most part I agree with you although there are some good jap cars IE. the supra and the 3000GT- I don't like them but I give credit where credit is do. As for the civics and other econ cars, I have always heard the claims of sub 13 cars but I have only seen a handful, but they are out there. Personally I like American muscle.


This car is an exception-Dodge reliant-4cycls-fwd. Check it out its pretty good, watching the crowd is pretty funny. He did not spend nearly as much as the car he beats.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/video/kcar_vs_supra_long.zip

[Ebonclaw]

More thoughts on a tricked Spyder..........


Personally, I believe you can make a Spyder perform at the level of an Angel. Will it ever BE an Angel? No. It's still gonna be a $200 tricked marker. But will it perform like one? I can't think of one reason why it couldn't. RoF? Whatever that new Storm Frame will shoot......and it'll do 15 BPS. Wear and tear? Throw LP internals and a delrin bolt in. No more o-rings to fool with, little kick, and consistent. Besides, Spyders are made to last. If anyone remembers the story of a newbie shooting sand through my Shutter, I should remind you the Shutter has not broken an O-ring and performs good as new with a good cleaning. I se an Angel or high end gun go down every Saturday I'm at the field. But never have I seen a blowback give someone trouble. Autocockers get out of timing, they leak, break, and generally mess up. Electros have dwell setting problems and all sorts of other intricacies. A blowback though, is so simple anything that does go wrong is fixed simply and quickly.
You want accuracy? We all know that's in paint and barrel match. I think it all depends. Do you want to buy a corvette and have the style or do you want to buy a Spyder, soup it up, spend a little less money, and have a marker that's not as flashy, but performs the same....and at the risk of making people mad.....goes down a lot less.
Besides, those electro frames will shoot faster than a loader can load, unless you get a HALO or something. An Angel will do that too. Until we get a loader that will feed 20 bps, your trickd Spyder can shoot just as fast as that Angel.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
More thoughts on a tricked Spyder..........


Personally, I believe you can make a Spyder perform at the level of an Angel. Will it ever BE an Angel? No. It's still gonna be a $200 tricked marker. But will it perform like one? I can't think of one reason why it couldn't. RoF? Whatever that new Storm Frame will shoot......and it'll do 15 BPS. Wear and tear? Throw LP internals and a delrin bolt in. No more o-rings to fool with, little kick, and consistent. Besides, Spyders are made to last. If anyone remembers the story of a newbie shooting sand through my Shutter, I should remind you the Shutter has not broken an O-ring and performs good as new with a good cleaning. I se an Angel or high end gun go down every Saturday I'm at the field. But never have I seen a blowback give someone trouble. Autocockers get out of timing, they leak, break, and generally mess up. Electros have dwell setting problems and all sorts of other intricacies. A blowback though, is so simple anything that does go wrong is fixed simply and quickly.
You want accuracy? We all know that's in paint and barrel match. I think it all depends. Do you want to buy a corvette and have the style or do you want to buy a Spyder, soup it up, spend a little less money, and have a marker that's not as flashy, but performs the same....and at the risk of making people mad.....goes down a lot less.
Besides, those electro frames will shoot faster than a loader can load, unless you get a HALO or something. An Angel will do that too. Until we get a loader that will feed 20 bps, your trickd Spyder can shoot just as fast as that Angel.

I've been told at times that I can be very blunt and to the point. In the interest of illustrating that, here's my response



BS

[Madnessmc]

I love when paintball arguments turn int car arguments.

American muscle cars RULE.

:D

[UTLadiesMan]

I own a cocker and a spyder SE. Do I have problems with my cocker some times? YES! It's a cocker after all. However, every time I go paintballing I take at least one person with me, and they use my spyder. Trust me, I spend much more time on a given weekend fixing my spyder than my cocker. It doesn't go down per se, but it stops functioning correctly, and takes time to fix. As for my opinion of wether or not a low end semi can be a high level gun. NO. I own both, and trust me, the high end guns perform much better than a low end could every try to. To any who think otherwise, just ask someone at the field to borrow their gun for a game. You will definately notice a difference. You get what you pay for.

[Ebonclaw]

Well, time to drag this old thread up again, as me and Twitcho are about to have a biotch fight over in another thread.
In response to your well-thought out reply to my post Twitcho....and I quote....

"BS"

[elTwitcho]

uh... we are?

[Ebonclaw]

Yeah, in the Low Pressure testing thread? Just nod and smile so I don't look like an idiot ok? Damn....too late. Wel, just nod and smile, because if you do what i tell you then I feel I at least have a little power over you.

[PHiuR]

eltwitch... u look a bit too happy with ur gun therre ;) hehe

[Ebonclaw]

Well, performance wise, seeing as how you're limited to 14BPS at most tournaments anyway, being ABLE to shoot or cycle at 30 BPS is worthless. For tournament purposes, an Eframe on an Xtra will do nicely, as Bad Company has already illustrated.


Team Bad Company plays with Spyders ... they've beaten the SC Ironmean, Ground Zero Gold, Lock Out and the All American's at the NPPL Gambler's Open in Atlantic City.

There's a photo on page 43 of the November issue of PB2X showing a member of Bad Company bunkering a SC Ironman player. It looks like the BC player is using a Spyder SE. There's also a photo of a BC player using a Spyder Xtra with a Centerflag Hyper Frame.

-Muckraker

It's just tricking out a Yugo to go like a Ferrari. Sure, you can buy the Ferrari in the first place, but just cuz it's a Ferrari doesn't mean that it can't be beat by a Yugo with a "few mods." Granted, it takes more than a "few mods", but to me, building your own gun is half the fun. And a lot easier on the wallet.
Besides, take a look at the Impulse. Basically you have an open-bolt marker designed to shoot electro. It's not much different than an electronic Spyder. Granted, the Spyder wasn't MADE to do it, but it can.

[Richy_C]

Ebon, i don't know if you relize this, but most lowend marker sponsered teams players still have their angels and cockers from when they weren't sponsered. Besides, i've never heard of an angel coming apart at the welds :rolleyes:

Enjoy your yugo, it's butt ugly, and still a yugo, and while you put 500 more into it to make it preform at less then what mine does at 500 stock, and still uglier than mine stock, i'll be enjoying the ferrari.


What tournies regulate ROF? Thats pretty lame.

[Richy_C]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
look at the Impulse. Basically you have an open-bolt marker designed to shoot electro. It's not much different than an electronic Spyder.

It's very differant! The simalrities? It uses a tube design like most other markers. It uses a ram, not springs, a solinoid, not a sear, and a much nicer valve, after market triggers, and a company that will tune it for you at a tourney. Sure kingman had a tent at the IAO, but it was a party and sales tent, no tech support what so ever.

[Ebonclaw]

Like I said, designed to shoot electro. There's those differences you mentioned. As far as coming apart at the welds, I've never heard of that happening to a Spyder......though I can tell you theres a guy at our field who usually spends about half the day "fixing" his Ferrari. You take a high end gun, yes, it's cool, but it also means more things can go wrong. One reason the Impulse is a best seller, it's simple. It doesn't break down much. Just like a Spyder. All the electro on the Spyder does is change the grip acutuation. It still shoots the same, only faster. So it stays simple. Simplicity, you see, is a beauty of the under class guns. Parts for me cost, what, maybe a buck for a new spring here and there? 20 for a valve? Every once in a great while, you might need a new hammer, but those cost maybe $15. Keep it oiled and throw in a plastic bolt of some sort and there's amazingly little wear on your gun, and no need to worry about it "coming apart at the welds." Spyder builds sturdy guns, though I would indeed be a little wary of putting an E-frame on a Rebel.

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
It's just tricking out a Yugo to go like a Ferrari. Sure, you can buy the Ferrari in the first place, but just cuz it's a Ferrari doesn't mean that it can't be beat by a Yugo with a "few mods." Granted, it takes more than a "few mods", but to me, building your own gun is half the fun. And a lot easier on the wallet.


Then just buy a stock cocker and upgrade that...

It costs a little more to start, but you can upgrade it to hell and back, and when you're done, TADA! You have a pimped out high end gun, instead of a tricked spyder that goes on ebay when you finally realize you should have bought a cocker. Also, if you don't want to spend that much for a stock cocker, you can just buy all of your upgrade parts up front, and a body (which might already be on your list).

Oh, and

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
Spyder builds sturdy guns

uh, no they don't. Kingman builds sturdy guns.

[Richy_C]

Do a search. And look at ADamnFool, he did every thing to his spyder, short of electro, and he couldn't sell it for even 350, and what type of gun is he getting? A angel. So you can race a yugo, but i know you'll always want the ferrari, but you got defensive, and don't want to get one, because it'll have meant you were wrong. I did the same at one point. Least my bushy never studders at 200 PSI :P

[UofWfan416]

U could any day just look at my gun. I am not saying automags are bad but spyders and Tippmanns are good if you play tournaments you might need a spyder or a shorter gun but anything is good if you make it that way.


The player makes the gun not the other way around.

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by UofWfan416
The player makes the gun not the other way around.

I've said it a million times. Skill is important, but when you're skill is even with the next person's, equipment can be the edge. At tournys everyone is good, so why chance it? Put your skill on a scale from 1 to 100. If upgrading from a spyder to an angel only adds 5 to that score, that's 5 points better than you were before and it means you can now beat someone 4 clicks better than you when they use their spyder. Now that person needs an angel to be 4 points better than you again. But, if he has an angel, and you have a spyder, he's 9 points up on you, and you're screwed.

Am I making any sense, or just babbling on? I really can't tell at this point.

[TheSock]

Personally I think your all crazy.... But I would love to see a spyder kick the crap out of a high end gun. :P

[DasBaldDog]

I'm not too far from closing this thread. I had hoped, after not seeing it appear for months, that it was dead. I will leave it up so long as the discussion remains on topic, which, thus far, it is.

[davidb]

Originally posted by UofWfan416
U could any day just look at my gun. I am not saying automags are bad but spyders and Tippmanns are good if you play tournaments you might need a spyder or a shorter gun but anything is good if you make it that way.


Can anybody here make any sense of that?

BTW class we have a lecture on shootdown scheduled after Ebonclaw gets his E-frame.

[Ebonclaw]

Oh I have my E-frame. And frankly, there's no difference between 13 BPS coming out of an Impulse and 13 BPS coming out of a Spyder, especially when you're on the receiving end. Look, I'm gonna make my argument one more time.
Want 13 BPS? Your electro Spyder CAN and WILL do it.
Want accuracy? How good is your paint and barrel match?
These are the ONLY two things an opponent factors into your gun. How many balls coming at him and how many are on target. The only thing I might throw into that equation is ball breackage (or how long your gun is out of action on the field). Let's face it, any gun can blow an o-ring or chop a ball. But as far as ball chopping goes, the Matrix has its solution (LP) and the Spyder has its solution (LP). it's just that you have to build a LP system into your Spyder like anything else. You can either buy the Corvette in the first place, or you can build one. Either way, you get a car that will do 140 MPH. And I'm very skeptical as to Spyders "coming apart at the welds". I've never heard of or seen this. Ever. I won't deny Angels are well-made guns, but the fact of the matter is, any Spyder treated right will hold together just fine, just like an Angel. As far as shootdown goes, I'm running nitrogen and experienced very little shootdown with that Crossfire reg. In fact, I've never noticed any, though I won't say that it HASN'T occured because I don't know, but even if does occur, when I get a new reg (probably the same reg some of you use on your Timmys etc) that should go away.
Persoanlly, when I'm getting shot at with 13 BPS and they're all hitting on target I don't care which gun it's coming from and I probably couldn't tell the difference.

[UTLadiesMan]

I'm just curius, I want to test a high end cocker, a couple high end electros, and a souped up spyder in a controlled, indoors environment. I don't have the money or the time, but I just want to see the results. I think I know what they would be, and if that is the case, I can't wait to say; "I told you so!". If not, I'll eat my words, and apologize... Not that it matters, because we could never get a fair test around here, and all the ones I've ever seen wait 10 seconds between shots. I'm curious as to how they would do with single shots, and with 13 bps coming out. I would expect the angel, timmy, excaliber, cocker, etc. to move much less, and be much more accurate.

[elTwitcho]

Sure there is a difference between 13 bps on a spyder and on an impulse. When you fire 13 bps with an impulse, you get 13 whole balls. When you fire 13 bps with a spyder, the gun seperates the paint and shell for you with the bolt, that way your opponent doesn't have to worry about doing it. There's a thing called blowback, it slows down your rate of fire by pushing air up the feed tube. The only way to correct that with a spyder is to make it fully pnuematic and change out the bolt and hammer. Adding an electronic sear won't do that, and that my friends is why e spyders chop. And if you're not chopping with your e spyder, you've got a terribly slow trigger finger

[pr0kch0p]

i just want to say that i recently sold my spyder in order to get some extra cash for my timmy, and i am really glad that i didnt go balls out on my spyder. thought it was a great marker, I LOVE MY TIMMY.

so just ask yourself if you really need that extra upgrade for your spyder, or will the money be better spent in other places.

[Paintslanga]

i say no cause if u could make it as go as high end then everyone would just buy a brass eagle and turn it to a angel. but its just how it works didfernent guns work different ways and some designs r better then others

[Paint Bulley]

TWITCH SAID _________

Wow, you guys act like you've never shot a spyder if you thinkit'll be perfect with some upgrades. A Spyder has (just by design flaw) a whole ton of blowback going up your feed tube. This slows your ROF down considerably and increases your chance of chopping. There isnt an upgrade in the world that gets rid of this blowback with exception perhaps of the closed bolt kit for the Spyder.

------

Check out Blind Seamen's web page, it seems his blow back goes down his feed tube :) that's all I have to say :)

[Friday]

And here's BlindSeaman's web page (http://home.attbi.com/~blindseaman/) if you're too lazy to go find it :) It's in the movies section at the bottom of the page.

I'm still a newbie but I'm kinda not getting this "blow back" concept. Blow backs are Spyders, Piranhas, Tippmanns(?) etc. And blow back means air blowing up through the feed. Then why does BlindSeaman's Spyder Xtra seem to suck air down the feed instead of being blown up? (Check out his movie)

[VeNoM]

i would be really impressed to see a spyder shoot at 13 bps as reliably and accurate as my bushy, i could see maybe 10 at the MOST but i really doubt it could shoot 13 bps consistantly and accurately and have every ball leave the barrel in one peice. ebon, thats great that you are really into your spyder and e-frame but i really dont think you should be here saying that it performs as good as an adrenaline angel, or any angel for that matter, or even my bushy . . . i think you need to get of your pedistol :rolleyes:

[chynzexguy]

this might be kind of off topic but my model98c with the rt+lp kit can shoot 13 balls per second no problems and thats a blow back gun

[Ebonclaw]

Well, it'll only do it if there are balls in the feed tube to keep blowback from occuring. Once I get my Psychorev board from WickedAir for Christmas with Evil Impeller, that won't be a problem to keep it fed. The last 10 balls or so kinda have to go off single shot though. But yes, it does feed 13 BPS, much like an automag's powerfeed. I figure, they're both using the same feed, one of them we KNOW gets 13-14 BPS and the other can do it when the blowback is null (balls behind the feed). Only problem is recently I stripped a screw hole in my Shutter and need to re tap it, totally unrelated to the frame, I just screwed the damn thing in too tight.

[Richy_C]

Well, i never got my mag above 4-5 either, and it's blowback was horrid, as is my spyders. Blowback pushs ball back, which is what causes the chops, not lack of feed speed (which is slowed by the power feed, but the power feed can't be taken out of the picture either, because vert feed on blowbacks makes it hard to eliminate the ecsesive air.

[133+ Player]

If you use a spyder in a trouney no Full Auto so the max BPS u can go is like 9. So even with the blow UP (the feed) flaw the gun still performs nearly as equal to nearly any other high end gun.

[133+ Player]

Originally posted by chynzexguy
this might be kind of off topic but my model98c with the rt+lp kit can shoot 13 balls per second no problems and thats a blow back gun

You can't keep it consistant though. The RT is machanical so harder to set.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by 133+ Player
If you use a spyder in a trouney no Full Auto so the max BPS u can go is like 9.

How do you figure? I've used a stopwatch and I can fire 13

[133+ Player]

Originally posted by elTwitcho


How do you figure? I've used a stopwatch and I can fire 13

on a spyder??? And you are a lot more exspeirenced. One other thing how often do you do 13? And i'm saying in Semi Auto witch is all you can use in tournies.(most)

[anchorite]

no.
definatley not.

very high end markers are not duplicatable.

can you make a tippman's bolt move with 40psi of pressure, like a freeflow? no.

can you make an open bolt spyder closed bolt, like a shocker?
no.

how many PMI markers have anti-chop-eyes, or another type of sensor that senses if a ball is in the chamber completley? no.

can you give even a black dragun the feel, style, looks, quality, speed or accuracy of an angel? no.

so sure, you can put a regulator, freak, new bolt, electronic grip on a spyder, but it will not perform anywhere near a higher end marker.
it is impossible.

[elTwitcho]

No I meant with my intimidator I can pull 13.

[Crash Danger]

closed bolt, open bolt, blow back, electronic, yadda yadda...

Sure, 30 balls per second is alot faster than the low end gun's 6 balls per second. But all it takes is ONE paintball to eliminate someone.

More balls per second just allows you to not be as accurate and still hit a guy :D

[LordChaos]

Can low ends be upgrade to "damn, nice performance there"? yes.

Can they be brought up to unmoded high end levels? Close enough.

Can they be brought up to top of the food chain high ends (you know, the total custom builds, AA's, the 1500+ cockers and such)? Not a chance in hell.

Does it mater? Not if you are a good player. Someone who's realy on their game could walk out with a Stingray, straight from the box, and whoop some serrious butt. course, that level of playing skill is rare, even in turni teams.

[133+ Player]

Originally posted by anchorite
no.
definatley not.

very high end markers are not duplicatable.

can you make a tippman's bolt move with 40psi of pressure, like a freeflow? no.

can you make an open bolt spyder closed bolt, like a shocker?
no.

how many PMI markers have anti-chop-eyes, or another type of sensor that senses if a ball is in the chamber completley? no.

can you give even a black dragun the feel, style, looks, quality, speed or accuracy of an angel? no.

so sure, you can put a regulator, freak, new bolt, electronic grip on a spyder, but it will not perform anywhere near a higher end marker.
it is impossible.

half those answers are yes so your wrong.... And i'd like to see the gun that runs on 40 psi...

[LordChaos]

Originally posted by 133+ Player


half those answers are yes so your wrong.... And i'd like to see the gun that runs on 40 psi...

My Sov doesn't run at 40 psi, but it's recocking preasure is signifigently lower then 40psi (as in, it takes MUCH less then 40psi to move the bolt AND hammer assembly in my sov...)

[Codestar20]

Originally posted by anchorite


can you make an open bolt spyder closed bolt, like a shocker?
no.



Yes, you can. They have the RAIL system, the Deadlywind Closed bolt kit which will make any spyder an "autococker". There is also a monster spyder which is closed bolt.

Here is the URL:
http://www.deadlywind.com/railfaq.html

[elTwitcho]

lol, I just saw Blind Seamans movie, and to be honest, I think it's rigged as hell, as in he put something in his breech attached to the klenex to pull it down, not even an angel, which was specifically designed to have a vaccum assisted feed will pull a klenex down like that

[griffinator]

yeah, and how many of them have NOS tanks in their cars? No duh, then it could outrun a porshe

[133+ Player]

Originally posted by LordChaos
Can they be brought up to top of the food chain high ends (you know, the total custom builds, AA's, the 1500+ cockers and such)? Not a chance in hell.

Do i want a 1500+ gun?
Not a chance in hell

You know how paranoid i would be?!?? I would never put that thing down. I know your supporting my side (kinda) but i don't really want a 1500+ gun, least my gun is a lot less lickley to be stollen :P even though i'll own just as much. PLus if you have a spyder operating at such high level no ones gonna beleave it is so they'll think it's you :D hehe