Smart Parts

[UTLadiesMan]

Due to recent events, the Smart Parts debate has branched out well beyond the normal purposes of this forum. To alleviate work for Vaypy and myself, this thread will be stickyed until some time that it is deemed to no longer be needed.

Ground rules: PLEASE READ:
NO flaming will be tolerated here. This includes user flaming, corporate flaming, idea flaming, bandwagon flaming, etc... This will be a 100% civilized conversation.

NO pictures. I don't care how funny you think they are, we've all seen them a million times, they oft fall under the flaming rule, and they detract from the conversation.

NO 'one word' or 'quote' posts. If you quote someone, you better have a rebuttal or something to add. Don't just quote them and put a :nod: on the end and think people care.

NO spamming. Period.

NO swearing. Period.


Violation of these rules will result in an automatic warning and post deletion. If you are already in trouble with us or you receive several warnings from this thread, punishments can be increased including removal from this site.

If problems are more widespread than just a handful of users, there always exists the possibility of no more Smart Parts talk in General. It's excessive as is, and we are offering a simplified, unified, way of conversing provided all the rules are followed.






Enjoy. :cowboy:

[teufelhunden]

Unfortunatley, I don't see another sticky that's going to be skipped over helping you two out :|

Good luck though :)

[Vaypourus]

Well, I can close every Smart Parts thread that springs up, and re-direct people here ;)

Seriously though, I don't have much to add to UTL's post. We will be enforcing this, so play nice guys-

vayp

[the other one]

so, this thread is for the SP debate?

or is this just a "read me or die" type sticky, similar to the rules?

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by the other one
so, this thread is for the SP debate?

or is this just a "read me or die" type sticky, similar to the rules?

The debate. All other SP debate threads will be closed immediately... so post here instead. :)

[the other one]

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan


The debate. All other SP debate threads will be closed immediately... so post here instead. :)


ok then..


For those of you who want to know a little backround info, here's two links to stuff regarding the debate:

icedillusions.com Anti-SP page (http://www.icedillusions.com/Anti-SP.html) <--- very informative
the first PBR thread (http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=160765)

[MrTiggleBitties]

Frankly, I don't care what they did anymore.

[penguins_r_kewl]

Will people ever notice this thread?

[MunkyFuzz]

Originally posted by penguins_r_kewl
Will people ever notice this thread? I don't think so. Oh well. We'll just debate between ourselves. So do you think smart parts did the right thing business wise? Consumer wise? Overall wise?

[nahthan]

i think SP is trying to the right thing buisness wise but some consumers definatly wont like it (any owner of a marker SP contains under its patents) I think that it all depends on how you look at it but i think they should invest more time in making new markers instead of trying to get patents and enforce them . That way they could make more money in a short time ... not to mention they would have more consumers hooked on their products then

[Bellator_Fortus]

What Smart Parts did was a good move as far as the business world goes. Many consumers don't understand that, and they're usually the ones boycotting Smart Parts, whether it's due to little understanding of how big business works or their devotion to morals. Personally, I think it was uncalled for, but it shouldn't be taken so seriously as to have "Boycott Smart Parts" slogans. It should be forgotten.

On the other hand, business or not, it was immoral, and I have morals. I'll probably leave SP's products alone because of what they did. I never bought from them, anyway. They're markers just don't have heart anymore. Smart Parts lost its mojo.

:twocents:

[SPPaintball]

Yay thank you for this thread! I cant stand it when people hate my avatar/marker because of the company the marker was made by. :pissed: Nice thread UTLaidiesMan! :tup:

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

I could care less what happens in that side of paintball. Yes I do care that they are shoving some smaller companies out (AKA), but mabey its for the better. I guess call it Darwinism? Granted they didnt go out because of inferior products, but do we really need all those markers? I mean look at Bushy's and Imps. The are relatively the same, and I have heard people argue one superior to the other both ways. Now eliminate Bushy's, and you still have a marker that will fill that gap.

Who knows mabey some new technology that doesnt violate the patent will be invented, and it will revolutionize paintball. All I know is that I will still be purchasing my Impy regardless of what happens.

[teufelhunden]

Business wise- Good move. Actually, really nice move. Not only can you hurt the competition, but on every gun they sell, you get a cut.

Consumer wise: I doubt their sales numbers will change much, either way. Sure, people will be pissed off and not buy SP, but then you'll also have the people who are like... wtf, $450 for a base Bushy? I'll take a $400 Impulse. It'll even out.

Overall, I would have done it too.

[PMI_Guy]

Nice UTL.

Although, I have to agree with Teuf. People don't look at and/or read the stickys.

[shoc]{erboy12]

I noticed it.

I think that it was a very smart thing to do. I don't like what they are doing because now X-mags are not produced.

[IrishDevil]

Company wise they did the best move any one could do. But if this starts to affect the bigger companies and they collectively put out messages saying how Smart Parts is making a monopoly on electro systems then people will get really pissed. I'm sure that if SP wins it will turn some heads. If they lose then they will have to suck it up and not rely on Dynasty to pull them out of the mess.

[Ghost2867]

frankly, i dont care about the whole "it was a smart business move" thing...

you've all seen the one post with all the good and noble things other companies in the past had done, by NOT patenting things that would help expand the industry.

rite now, the paintball industry is still in its growing stages, and is evolving to a point where it could be in leagues with all the other arena-type extreme sports out there. all SP is doing is stunting that growth.

it is truly an ingenious business move, but i think it will have a negative affect overall on the sport.

[Six Feet Under]

I think it was a good move business move, but consumers are not gonna like it at all... and don't now. Sooner or later people are gonna just stop buying SP products (I hope) and give them a taste of their own medicine:pbr:

Edit on 11\7\2004: Looking back at the last 7 months 30 days (or so), I'm frickin' stupid to have said that. SP makes great products and will continue to do so. Having said this, I want an 03 Vision Shocker to complement my Impulse.:)

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
frankly, i dont care about the whole "it was a smart business move" thing... Cuz you can't refute it.

you've all seen the one post with all the good and noble things other companies in the past had done, by NOT patenting things that would help expand the industry. Yeah, I have. I think Blacksheep is right-- everybody wants paintball to get big, and it has (10m ballers..). However, with a big industry comes big industry business. That's what SP is. We wanted big, we got big.

rite now, the paintball industry is still in its growing stages, and is evolving to a point where it could be in leagues with all the other arena-type extreme sports out there. all SP is doing is stunting that growth. There's not really much room to grow... we have tourneys everywhere, PB is on TV, players are getting individual contracts to play NXL..

it is truly an ingenious business move, but i think it will have a negative affect overall on the sport. Negative. It will advance the mech market, and the electro market will still be there... and it has nowhere to grow. Our BPS is insane, consistency perfect, accuracy is ball on ball..

[Downfall08]

Okay, personally I think this was extremely stupid for SP to do. People will stop buying their markers, and all their products eventually. If they would have just kept up with what they used to do and make great markers, they would have probobly monopolized the industry anyway. I can't tell you how many people this whole court-stuff has pushed away from SP. I was one of them. At first when I was gonna get a high-end gun, I was going for Impy or Shocker. Now that this happened, I bought a cocker instead. Thats just me, maybe others feel different

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by teufelhunden
Cuz you can't refute it. true...i just dont like the fact that that's true... :|

Yeah, I have. I think Blacksheep is right-- everybody wants paintball to get big, and it has (10m ballers..). However, with a big industry comes big industry business. That's what SP is. We wanted big, we got big. blacksheep is a smart guy. i dont kno what u mean by "10m ballers"...while we all want the INDUSTRY to grow, that comes with competition, not the destruction of it...

There's not really much room to grow... we have tourneys everywhere, PB is on TV, players are getting individual contracts to play NXL.. when paintball is as televised and as well respected as skateboarding or snowboarding, or any other sport out there, i will be happy. i mean, every time some crime involves a paintball gun, we all run for cover and go defensive...

Negative. It will advance the mech market, and the electro market will still be there... and it has nowhere to grow. Our BPS is insane, consistency perfect, accuracy is ball on ball.. frankly, unless companies start making guns with pulls as light as an intelliframe, no mech is gonna be able to stand up against a shocker or timmy. like u said, the "BPS is insane, consistency perfect, accuracy is ball on ball". who knows what the next invention could be. back when ppl were still using nelspots, who could have imagined what we have today?

[evilhomer]

My friend was talking to a patent lawyer the other day, and he said the lawyer said that there is an expiration date on patents, and after a few years, it's open market again. Anyone want to clear this up?

[teufelhunden]

By 10m ballers I mean 10,000,000 paintballers. Ten million. 1 in every 28 Americans balls.

Paintball around here is as respected, or more respected than skateboarding. Probably because skating has been tarnished a bit by posers. And only idiots run for cover when paintball is in the news negatively... remember how skateboarding isn't allowed like anywhere public? You don't see the skating community with its tail tucked in its legs when someone dies skating or some kid on a skateboard takes groceries from an old lady.

For the info on these uber-mechs... check out AO. There's a number of threads on them. Think about it... what could possibly come next? When everything was pump, people knew semi-automatics existed elsewhere, so it would be possible in PB. We've outlawed the rest... no burst, no mutliple barrels, no automatic. Only thing I could see being major is somehow removing the tank from the equation, but that's a bit far fetched.

[Skizothymic]

Paintball around here is as respected, or more respected than skateboarding. Probably because skating has been tarnished a bit by posers. And only idiots run for cover when paintball is in the news negatively... remember how skateboarding isn't allowed like anywhere public? You don't see the skating community with its tail tucked in its legs when someone dies skating or some kid on a skateboard takes groceries from an old lady.


I'm not sure I understand your argument. Who are you calling "idiots?" Are you saying that because skaters aren't afraid of bad publicity that paintball is more respected? The main reason skateboarding can afford bad publicity is due to the fact that it is already "huge" (more televised, more people, etc.)

My two cents: I believe that had Smart Parts been good enough at business it wouldn't have HAD to try to monopolize and sue. AGD didn't monopolize nitro, and aren't we all very thankfull that HPA systems were allowed to flourish to their full potential? True there are good mechs, and no one NEED an electro, but why not have variety? - Oh yeah. . . greed.

When I first started playing paintball there wasnt quite as much variety in electros, but I like it more now.

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by evilhomer
My friend was talking to a patent lawyer the other day, and he said the lawyer said that there is an expiration date on patents, and after a few years, it's open market again. Anyone want to clear this up?

After a few years, the company will have to pay to have it extended. (like at most $1500, big whoop) For stupid patents that aren't making you any money, you'd probably let it slide. For this, they'll pay for it. Anyway, they'll have to do that periodically (every 2 years?) and then the patent is ousted after 20 years regardless. I'm not entirely sure if it's from the time of submission or acceptance... anyway either 2016 or 2021. Either way, it is PLENTY of time to become extremely dominant for SP. I've heard a few others say 'Who cares? In a few years the patent will go away.' Well, 15 years from now that might be a valid point... but SP has nothing but time to crash all oposition. Besides, I'd be willing to bet most of you won't even be playing at that time. :P


Back on page 1, someone said "Well, it may get rid of the bushy, but the impy is still there so the spot is filled." Having more products available and more choices at the counter can only help the consumer, never hurt. If there's one car out there, you might not care because that's the one you wanted... however, with hundreds out there you get to pick and chose. How can that be bad? Russia tried that whole 'one car available in your choice of color (as long as it's black)'. It didn't work out so well. While that one may be well made and may be cheaper due to lack of competition, it still can not possibly fill every person's needs. Bushies and Impys may by very comparable in all aspects... but then so are the Camry, Accord, Altima, 626, L300, Malibu, Taurus, Sunbird, Galant, etc. Yeah... we don't NEED all those moderately priced passenger vehicles, but isn't it nice to get to choose what is important to you instead of being told?


If you stifle the market you destroy creativity and ensure an industry of stagnation.






One last thought for this post... Personally, I don't ever see Smart Parts seeing bad numbers for this in the long term. Eventually people will forget, new people who never knew won't know, and people will just stop caring. If SP products are out there and for cheaper, people will buy them. Some people will hold their principles but anything else you buy still gives SP your money, so they don't mind. The only way this could hurt them long term is if they lose AND still have the short term resentment. One year's worth of lousy sales may not put them under, but it will keep them from getting new products out (as if they needed more excuses) and they may have to cut back on advertising and sponsorships. That can gradually hurt a company in the long run, but it'll be mighty difficult to topple them. (unless they're pulling an Enron and are actually in loads of debt. :P)

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Skizothymic
Paintball around here is as respected, or more respected than skateboarding. Probably because skating has been tarnished a bit by posers. And only idiots run for cover when paintball is in the news negatively... remember how skateboarding isn't allowed like anywhere public? You don't see the skating community with its tail tucked in its legs when someone dies skating or some kid on a skateboard takes groceries from an old lady.


I'm not sure I understand your argument. Who are you calling "idiots?" Are you saying that because skaters aren't afraid of bad publicity that paintball is more respected? The main reason skateboarding can afford bad publicity is due to the fact that it is already "huge" (more televised, more people, etc.)


I mean that seeing something in the news about some tool shooting at cars doesn't matter. Worst that happens is a few moms don't let their moron 11 year olds get Marauders at Wal-Mart... Paintball isn't going to be banned, there won't be any new taxes or regulations... if something like a PB ban comes up in your town, show up at the meeting where they talk about it and show them the other side of PB. After that, it'll go nowhere.

[Six Feet Under]

When you don't voice your opinion, nothing happens. The adults and old people that know nothing of paintball don't care about it as long as it's just one more thing they can control you over. Show them up, and tell 'em the truth about the sport. If that gets you no where, at least you'll have a right to complain instead of just complaining and getting no where.:twocents:

[UTLadiesMan]

As much as I agree with you guys....


topic. :chef:





(Ever notice that topic is an 'r' short of 'tropic'? 'Topic' + ':pirate:' = ':surfing:'. Yum. :P)

[Skizothymic]

as it stands, it must not be very important what they did (although i cant stand it). for had it pissed off enough people, a boycott would ensue and SP would be dead in the water due to their un-ethical business. this is what i would like to see, but i fear a union of smart parts boycotters will never rise. :(

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan


After a few years, the company will have to pay to have it extended. (like at most $1500, big whoop) For stupid patents that aren't making you any money, you'd probably let it slide. For this, they'll pay for it. Anyway, they'll have to do that periodically (every 2 years?) and then the patent is ousted after 20 years regardless. I'm not entirely sure if it's from the time of submission or acceptance... anyway either 2016 or 2021. Either way, it is PLENTY of time to become extremely dominant for SP. I've heard a few others say 'Who cares? In a few years the patent will go away.' Well, 15 years from now that might be a valid point... but SP has nothing but time to crash all oposition. Besides, I'd be willing to bet most of you won't even be playing at that time. :P



i thought it was only 15 years...eh...w/e

[jonbob]

Though I'm really hating smart parts right now, I must say I'm glad it woke up the paintball world. It's nice to see powerlyte patenting their sweet barrel locking system before someone else steals it. I honestly think it was a big mistake that the other manufacturers didn't patent their own inventions before others stole them. After all, you can own the patent and still let people use it for cheap (or nothing) if you want the sport to grow.

It's also nice to see other companies continue to make their products that much better than smart parts does (*cough*ICD*cough*). Even if I had to pay an extra 50 bucks for every electronic marker I ever buy (and it looks like I will), I'd still buy a marker that doesn't need a bunch of upgrades to not get crappy air efficiency out of the box.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by jonbob
Though I'm really hating smart parts right now, I must say I'm glad it woke up the paintball world. It's nice to see powerlyte patenting their sweet barrel locking system before someone else steals it. I honestly think it was a big mistake that the other manufacturers didn't patent their own inventions before others stole them. After all, you can own the patent and still let people use it for cheap (or nothing) if you want the sport to grow.

It's also nice to see other companies continue to make their products that much better than smart parts does (*cough*ICD*cough*). Even if I had to pay an extra 50 bucks for every electronic marker I ever buy (and it looks like I will), I'd still buy a marker that doesn't need a bunch of upgrades to not get crappy air efficiency out of the box.
personally, i think the patenting of certain things is bad in paintball...

SP markers have good efficiency out-of-the-box...while i do agree that the newer ICD guns are better than stock imps, the imps arent crap...yet

[penguins_r_kewl]

You'd think this thread would be popular...

I can't wait to see how people react on what SP does next.

[todzilla85]

I love you smart parts.......


btw keep up the good work:tup: :tup:

[Vaypourus]

I was recently @ FreeFlow and I noticed that there were only a few of thier matrixes on the wall...they just milled out a new design, but are not making them for that much longer. They said with Kapp putting the kabash on aftermarket parts, they were stopping production.

They are working on a new FreeFlow shocker though:|

[Ghost2867]

did u guys hear about hte assasins are mardi-gras?

FSP FSP FSP FSP FSP!

lol

[Vaypourus]

Just thought some of you died in the wool electro fans would get a kick out of this.....

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215568

[SickMuffins]

I do have to agree with Smart Parts as making a good business move. I am a loyal user of Smart Parts barrels, but they have effectively destroyed a small, up-and-coming company, AKALMP. Those of you defending these actions have not taken a second look at the issue. I'm not accusing anyone of anything but, this issue needs to be looked at closely before you can defend them. While most of the power in paintball is in the grasp of a handfull of companies, think about all of the smaller companies. Companies like Epic, Paintball Stuff, or USA performance products, just to name a few. If Smart Parts or one of these other large corporations decides to buy one of these companies, paintball will suffer. Not to be a hipocrite, but I think that Kingman or someone else should eat Smart Parts like a fat kid to butter.

[Bramge_Dained]

Isn't what SP is doing like someone saying they had the patent on the idea of how an internal combustion engine works?

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Vaypourus
Just thought some of you died in the wool electro fans would get a kick out of this.....

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215568
holy hell...i want one of those NOW... :P

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Bramge_Dained
Isn't what SP is doing like someone saying they had the patent on the idea of how an internal combustion engine works?
dont make analogies...9/10 times, they wont fit.

SP is basically turning paintball around...before, we were all about getting paintguns faster, and the electro breakthrough came in. after that, paintball just went uphill. we're now at the point where the speed is limited only by the pull of ur fingers, and the consistency is as good as it gets. we've figured out the secret to accuracy, so that's doen, and there's pretty much nowhere to go.

SP's patent could have quite a stimulating effect on the industry, by forcing companies to work around electroes, and make better mech products(like the vid vayp linkied us to), like the intelliframe and such.

dont get me wrong. im still completely against what htey did. filing for a patent and getting it, i dont mind. shutting down companies, i do. that is f***ing bs...excals and vikings were great, and so were emags and xmags... :(

[teufelhunden]

Smart Parts shut down nobody. AKA decided on their own to cease producing the Viking and Excal instead of fighting and AGD wasn't even in SP's crosshairs (get it? ;)). And, as Tom Kaye, owner of AGD has said, SP is not the reason that the E/X are gone. AGD-Europe, who produced the X bodies took on some new responsibilities as NPS's Europe distributor, and as TK said, the E-Mag is 4 years old and needs to be worked on.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

I think a lot of this is that Paintball is sheltered. We have never run into any of these problems before, and now that we have, everyone is crying about it. It just shows that Paintball is evolving and issues like this now matter, where they didn't before.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by teufelhunden
Smart Parts shut down nobody. AKA decided on their own to cease producing the Viking and Excal instead of fighting and AGD wasn't even in SP's crosshairs (get it? ;)). And, as Tom Kaye, owner of AGD has said, SP is not the reason that the E/X are gone. AGD-Europe, who produced the X bodies took on some new responsibilities as NPS's Europe distributor, and as TK said, the E-Mag is 4 years old and needs to be worked on.
i got owned...

AKA actually was talking with SP, and what SP had demanded was too much, so yea, AKA did choose to end production, but it was because of SP.

as for AGD...yea...i got owned...damn unreliable internet sources... :(

oh well, at least DYE and NPS are safe

[jdolla]

Here is my take on Smart Parts:

They make soem excellent equipment. They make some of the best guns, the most accurate barrel kit, excellent regs, blah blah blah. While their products perform well, I don't like their business strategies. In a sport where the patent has been largely avoided to promote its growth, Smart Parts came barging in with a patent on the electric switch, and now they are filing lawsuits.

What they are doing is perfectly legal, and actually good business smarts, but it is contradictory to the essence of paintball.

[d-shade]

I think what smartparts did was kinda wrong... its one thing to have the patent from the begining.. but its another thing to make a patent way after everyone starts doing a certain thing..

its like whats happening with a software called emule a company took the opensource soft made it shareware copyrighted the name and now they are sewing everything with the name emule..(kinda similar if they did get the patent after)


although with smartparts doing this it might improve on some of the pb equip but it would hurt the pb comunity a little as well due to some of the markers will be going off the shelf..

just imagine what would happen if aol started filing lawsuits for all their patents...

this might give smartparts more money to maybe create more quality gear but.. it does make them look like "the bad guy" in the pb community.


i personally prob wouldn't by any sp products now.. well at least not for a while just to see how things are once this issue settles down

hopfully this situation doesn't mess up the pb community too much.. but then again maybe because of sp everyone with a patent will start filing lawsuits on each other..

[JohnGotti423]

Originally posted by teufelhunden
Smart Parts shut down nobody. AKA decided on their own to cease producing the Viking and Excal instead of fighting and AGD wasn't even in SP's crosshairs (get it? ;)). And, as Tom Kaye, owner of AGD has said, SP is not the reason that the E/X are gone. AGD-Europe, who produced the X bodies took on some new responsibilities as NPS's Europe distributor, and as TK said, the E-Mag is 4 years old and needs to be worked on.

The Emag is four years old and needs to be worked on?
Sooo the autococker, which has remained basically unchanged since its inception, must need a complete overhaul, huh...

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by JohnGotti423


The Emag is four years old and needs to be worked on?
Sooo the autococker, which has remained basically unchanged since its inception, must need a complete overhaul, huh...
what does that have to do with teh mag?

[jonbob]

Originally posted by Ghost2867

what does that have to do with teh mag?
As long as the emag is still selling, there is no reason to discontinue it. All AGD would have to do is sell them with ULE bodies and x-valves and that fixes most of the gripes people have with them anyway. Even if you are working on a new marker, you don't discontinue the old one that is still selling well.

There is also no real reason to discontinue the x-mag because people are still desperately trying to get them. The x-mag was essentially the next evolution of the emag and was doing very well until being discontinued. Why discontinue something people are still willing to pay huge prices for?

[Ghost2867]

agd discontinued it...

and even if it were still in production, SP would eventually sue teh pants off of them, so still.

either way tho, i think AGD should just sell the boards and frames and such seperately, so that SP cant touch them, and they're still available

[MagMatt]

Found this on AO. Link (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=132147)

[Ghost2867]

well...at least we kno that ebladed/worrbladed cockers are safe now...

like mentioned before, SP's patent covers GUNS with electronic parts on them, so even if eclipse didnt strike a deal, they could still distribute the eblade kit, just not their ebladed cockers.

[Six Feet Under]

What is the EXACT part of SP's patent that is allowing them to continue with these lawsuits?

Is it an actual "switch" that has ON and OFF, or is it switches like the aforementioned PLUS "buttons"? There could be a way around this for companies if the patent only covers switches.

:pirate:

[Ghost2867]

that's the problem...

from what i've gathered, the patent's wording itself is very very very vague, and what this vagueness covers is everything electronic in a paintball GUN...

so what i think companies like AKA should do is to sell their guns in two pieces...sell the frame with the electronics seperately as a package... :P

[XxAzNiNvAsiOnxX]

Originally posted by LAMANTEthePBguy
I think a lot of this is that Paintball is sheltered. We have never run into any of these problems before, and now that we have, everyone is crying about it. It just shows that Paintball is evolving and issues like this now matter, where they didn't before.


I agree with you on this. Stuff this big is pretty new in paintball, but I guess it showing that paintball is becoming more of a business competition(not that it never way), but the only way we gonna stop this is by voicing our opinion and doing it ourselves =)

[Ghost2867]

paintball IS sheltered...

i dont really kno of any other sport that has this much variety in their primary equipment...

pro baseball...they all use wooden bats...of course they can vary slightly, but not as much as between a shocker or angel or timmy...

football...no difference...this game is all about how well your team's been trained, and how well they can work together. awesome game :D

tennis...rackets...so long as they dont snap, and the strings are tite, and they weigh just where u want them, ur set.

and so on and so forth...

limiting the variety of markers that we have available will kill the industry...it wont stimulate anything.

[Vaypourus]

I disagree with your argument. Look at mountain biking/road biking, or rally racing, or professional shooting, professional fishing....all are less popular professional sports. They all use very different equipment from an array of different manufacturers. Paintball is no different.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
pro baseball...they all use wooden bats...of course they can vary slightly, but not as much as between a shocker or angel or timmy...

football...no difference...this game is all about how well your team's been trained, and how well they can work together. awesome game :D

tennis...rackets...so long as they dont snap, and the strings are tite, and they weigh just where u want them, ur set.

and so on and so forth...

limiting the variety of markers that we have available will kill the industry...it wont stimulate anything. I'm sorry, but those have to be the worst examples you could have picked. A solid non-mechanical peice of wood is hardly comparable to a marker with 15 moving parts. Vayp's examples are much better. They have just as much variety as we do. And hold on, what does this example have to do with paintball being sheltered?

[Ghost2867]

yea...ur both rite...

damn...

i got owned...

:D

[Thor the Mighty]

well the way i see it is theres nothing we can do so we might as well raise the price on electros so credit card kids have to beg even more for that brand new dragon timmi hehehehe. thank god for smart parts

[Ghost2867]

i liked the one av...

it had the smart parts crosshair, and then it turned into a swastika...

and the other one...

it said "SP patent this", and it shows an old grandma flipping u off...

ah yes...ah yes...

[teufelhunden]

Originally posted by JohnGotti423


The Emag is four years old and needs to be worked on?
Sooo the autococker, which has remained basically unchanged since its inception, must need a complete overhaul, huh...

He's not changing how a 'Mag works.. he's changing the electronics. You know that massive 18v battery pack? TK wants that bye bye, along with every single baller who's ever picked up an E-Mag. That and the whole thing about nearly every tourney not allowing a stock E-Mag on the field because of it's built in bounce mode, errr, hybrid mode. Flip a selector switch and you're in..

Know what you're talking about before you try to come in and make an argument.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Ok bear with me here. I was browsing the US Patent Office's website when I ran into a bunch of patents that I thought might be of significance.
First off, you can view SP's patents Here (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F5967133), and Here (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F6035843) (I believe these are the ones under question)

Now I found these patents:

1)Tippman (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4819609) If I read this right, I think this is a patent for the paintball gun. The only problem is I think it inculdes a switch for making the gun automatic.

2)Patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F6003504) This one seems to be for a specific type of gun. But then at the end it includes "An electrical switch for the control valve is connected to an electronic control circuit which incorporates a micro-switch operated by the trigger of the gun. " Doesnt that sound an awful lot like the SP patent?

3)Patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F5613483) Eh not quite sure what this is, but it relates.


Do you think any of these make SP's invlalid, or do they not overlap? I get kinda confused in all the high tech writing stuff, so i might have missed somthing big.

[jdolla]

The electrical control unit preferably includes an electrical power source which activates an electrical timing circuit when the electrical switch is closed, and two electrically operated pneumatic flow distribution devices which are sequentially energized by the electrical timing circuit to enable the loading of a projectile for launching and to release compressed gas from the storage chamber to fire the projectile, respectively.

When the electrical switch is closed to initiate the launching sequence the projectile is first loaded into the launching mechanism by electrical timing circuit actuation of the first electrically operated pneumatic flow distribution device.

Those are from the SP patents.

An electrical switch for the control valve is connected to an electronic control circuit which incorporates a micro-switch operated by the trigger of the gun.

That is from the patent for the NPF Limited guys, (whoever they are.

I can't speak legalese worth crap, and I don't know a whole lot about how guns work, but the SP one sounds like a wordier version of the NPF patent.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by jdolla
The electrical control unit preferably includes an electrical power source which activates an electrical timing circuit when the electrical switch is closed, and two electrically operated pneumatic flow distribution devices which are sequentially energized by the electrical timing circuit to enable the loading of a projectile for launching and to release compressed gas from the storage chamber to fire the projectile, respectively.

When the electrical switch is closed to initiate the launching sequence the projectile is first loaded into the launching mechanism by electrical timing circuit actuation of the first electrically operated pneumatic flow distribution device.

Those are from the SP patents.

An electrical switch for the control valve is connected to an electronic control circuit which incorporates a micro-switch operated by the trigger of the gun.

That is from the patent for the NPF Limited guys, (whoever they are.

I can't speak legalese worth crap, and I don't know a whole lot about how guns work, but the SP one sounds like a wordier version of the NPF patent.
the SP patents when u look at it is very vague...

so that's why it pretty much covers EVERY paintball gun in existence with a board.

[comando345]

More like any guns with a battery or wires. Let me start though with my experience with Smart Parts "quality" or really there complete lack of quality control. I bought an 02 shocker with an 88ci maxflo, and it was a terrible experience. First, when i tried to fill the maxflo the fill nipple was defective. Keep in mind this tank goes for $350 or more, and was not tested in the factory. This to me is inexcusable. Next the barrel, the stock 16 inch all american barrel. It continually broke paint where the two pieces screw together, I tried repeatedly to fix this by screwing it tighter or loser with no effect. The manufacturing quality of that barrel was inexcusable. Now the shocker, apart from it being ineffecient, ugly and overweight. When i received the marker it was in barely working order. The factory had put so much grease on the bottom of the stack that it was shooting plus or minus 20. After i cleaned and greased the gun properly the gun did function rather well... for a short while. I would later notice that the bolt rapidly stripped the grease off of itself. This would cause it to stick. Since there is no external action you have to go back to the staging area to correct it. This lack of reliabillity is inexcusable. Get the picture about their products? Im not making this up people, this really happened to me long before the lawsuits.

[comando345]

sorry for the double post but now is my opinion on the merit of Smart Parts patent, or again the lack of it.
Smart Parts patent is simply anticompetitive. if they had simply patented the use of solenoids or maybe the microswitch in a marker then maybe it would be acceptable, but they patented the entire concept of using electronics in a marker. Beyond that the way they define it the patent includes any projectile launcher. Maybe someone should contact Lockheed Martin who has been manufacturing artillery that uses electronics in the shells and on the artillery piece for 50 years! Those are projectile launchers are they not? correct me if im wrong but you cant patent whats already been developed by somebody else right? Patents were originally meant to allow companies to recover their expenditures on research and development. Since SP did not develop electicity, solenoids or microswitches nor did they even conceptualize the electronic projectile launcher. Their Patent has absolutley no merit other than in the exceptions of law.

[Ghost2867]

regarding both ur posts...

post#1:
u were likely exception. SP's quality control, and the overall quality of their products is superb. they are one of the most succesful companies in paintball for a reason...keep in mind, there are exceptions to everything...just read the reviews on any product here on PBR...ppl will complain about how this leaked, or this stripped, or this didnt work while everyone else said it was great...it applies to just about any marker...even a spyder...i mean, every now and then, someone will get one that shoots straight and efficient out-of-the-box, rite? :P

post#2:
when i read the patent, i remember it involving compressed air, and somehow specifically referring to paintball guns w/out using the word "paintball". and either way, boeing would a**-rape SP in court...they're just beyond any paintball company...
it doesnt matter that they didnt come up with any of those products either. they're not patenting the items themselves...but the USE of them in a low-velocity projectile-launcher.

[UTLadiesMan]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Patents are intended to protect new and novel ideas. That is indeed their very essence. In this day and age, putting electronics in ANYTHING should hardly be considered an innovative idea. My fridge has more electronics in it than my dad's first car and modern cars can have more than 150 processors. Unless you're going to be putting a chip inside of a golf ball or something else previously inherently made of immobile and solid state pieces, it shouldn't be patentable. I still stand by my belief that if the USPTO wasn't so incredibly backed up, this patent would have been continually rejected until it was made in the spirit that patent office was founded on.



Also, as I had stated in the K2-WGP thread... wOrr blades may be pretty much now protected. K2 has enough cash on hand to take on SP and win. I wouldn't foresee SP taking them on until well after they had established legal precedence, especially since the JT line of electros aren't direct competitors. However, WGP would have seemed like a near target. Direct competitors in both the impy and shocker realm, and with enough sells to make the suits well worth it. Also while WGP was doing fine, they don't have the mutli-billion dollar backing that K2 does. K2 has obviously now shown that they are in this sport for the long haul, and I would expect them to protect their investments with great zeal.

So who's next on the list? They're running out of small companies, and have yet to set a legal precedence. I wouldn't expect SP to back down if they don't get it, so which giant will have to fight the good fight? AGD seems more interested in avoiding this until it's over... Kingman, Tippmann, and K2 all have way too much money and with the exception of the wOrr blades, none are direct competitors. Does this mean it will all fall on to WDP's shoulders? What do you guys think?

[Vaypourus]

I don't know if they will go after WDP or not. WDP will fight it tooth and nail, becuase every gun they make is an electronic one. I hope they do...I would like to see a big fight :devil:

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by Vaypourus
I don't know if they will go after WDP or not. WDP will fight it tooth and nail, becuase every gun they make is an electronic one. I hope they do...I would like to see a big fight :devil:

Well, they'll have to take on WDP sometime. Kingman, Tippmann, and K2 have too much money. While Kingman makes an attractive target volume wise, they would put up a tougher fight in court than WDP would. Tippmann... well, there may not be much of a fight there. They have the money, but few guns they sell are electronic, and those that they do are in the forms of upgrade kits. (which gets into an even grayer legal area). I guess the real question isn't really even who will get sued... but who will win. Unless SP calls the lawsuits quits before it gets down to the major players... it's going to end badly for someone. I guess if you were taking bets, it'd be even money SP vs. the field.

[Ghost2867]

there are quite few patents involving paintball that arent really enforced, arent there? like ut said, unless SP starts finding companies they an sue, the patent's just gonna be something else that SP can brag about in their catalogues.

WDP is a succesful company as well...however, even if SP were to try and sue them, it would only cause their US market to suffer. they sponsor pretty much every major team in europe and russia, and they even sponsor teams like linkin park as well.

WDP wont go down easy either.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Just a question: If hypothetically SP brings K2 to court (for worrblades), and k2 wins, would that invalidate the suits on AKA and ICD, or would they still have to pay royalties or whatever?

[Lopez17]

It would invalidate the suits, but the other companies would have to take their settlement agreements to court and cite precendent in the WDP (or kingman) case. I'd personally like to see this happen. I'd love to see Smart Parts get their asses handed to them for their half *** ****ty patent.

[comando345]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
regarding both ur posts...

post#1:
u were likely exception. SP's quality control, and the overall quality of their products is superb. they are one of the most succesful companies in paintball for a reason...keep in mind, there are exceptions to everything...just read the reviews on any product here on PBR...ppl will complain about how this leaked, or this stripped, or this didnt work while everyone else said it was great...it applies to just about any marker...even a spyder...i mean, every now and then, someone will get one that shoots straight and efficient out-of-the-box, rite? :P

post#2:
when i read the patent, i remember it involving compressed air, and somehow specifically referring to paintball guns w/out using the word "paintball". and either way, boeing would a**-rape SP in court...they're just beyond any paintball company...
it doesnt matter that they didnt come up with any of those products either. they're not patenting the items themselves...but the USE of them in a low-velocity projectile-launcher.

3 Times in a row? I dont think so. I know plenty of people who have had the same trouble with their barrels and at least one other problem with shockers. Not to mention the fact that Impulse need a tapeworm out of the box! The reason sp is a big company is successful marketing, nothing more and nothing less. If you had actually OWNED a sp product and an ICD product you would see a clear improvement in quality with ICD. J&J barrels are also much nicer than SP barrels, you can just tell by the way they fit together so well. "U were likely the exception", please three times! Give me a break!

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345


3 Times in a row? I dont think so. I know plenty of people who have had the same trouble with their barrels and at least one other problem with shockers. really? wow...that sux Not to mention the fact that Impulse need a tapeworm out of the box! umm...no they dont... The reason sp is a big company is successful marketing, nothing more and nothing less. true, but its not their ONLY reason If you had actually OWNED a sp product and an ICD product you would see a clear improvement in quality with ICD. actually, if it werent for this whole anti-SP thing, i'd take an imp over a bushy any day...and i've shot both. J&J barrels are also much nicer than SP barrels, you can just tell by the way they fit together so well. while SP's barrels are at a hype level beyond what ANY barrel can match, they still are VERY good barrels. dont give their products s*** 'cause of this whole hting...give THEM s***. "U were likely the exception", please three times! Give me a break!
i think its possible...

with how many spyders i've had to fix in the past, along with all the problems i'd seen with numerous other markers...

besides, despite that, their old shocker is known for being a great gun. ur 3 experiences is a small percentage even when added up with all the bad experiences of other ppl when compared to the number of satisfied customers.

[UTLadiesMan]

Keep this thread civil.


If SP lost in court it wouldn't automatically invalidate the other settlements because those were contracts made outside of court. In order to get those lifted, each company would have to take SP to court to have the contract invalidated. Anyone who has a settlement with them currently more than likely has a clause stating that if the patent is ever overturned the contract would be lifted, but even if they didn't it would most likely be breakable.

(As far as the exact wording on the contracts, I have no idea... because none of them have ever been released to the public. If any of them were public companies, yes they would have to be... but none of them are. K2 is the only current publically traded paintball company I believe.)

[comando345]

2 out of three old shockers ive had experience with have had problems. Off hand counting mine I can think of at least 4 cases of major problems with 2 piece barrels from SP. I cannot recall a single problem with any J&J barrels despite the fact that they are the single most common type of barrel at my field. It never ceases to amaze me how people will put up with so many problems with the products from SP.

[Ghost2867]

interesting...

in my 3 years of serious playing(not counting my 3 years of not knowing s*** about paintball...), i have never experienced, or even seen a major problem with any SP products...

even online, i've never heard of anyone complaining about a serious problem outside of the SP forums.

JJ barrels may be the most common on ur field, but on the one i play at, its undoubtedly the CP 1-piece. why do i bring this up? simple. this has absolutely no place in this debate...what does it matter that they're so common?

so in the end, im not putting up with any technical problems from SP at all...in fact, im not putting up with them at all...im straight up b****ing about their patent...but none of hteir products

(though i will admit the old shocker 4x4 looked like s*** ;) )

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan
Keep this thread civil.


If SP lost in court it wouldn't automatically invalidate the other settlements because those were contracts made outside of court. In order to get those lifted, each company would have to take SP to court to have the contract invalidated. Anyone who has a settlement with them currently more than likely has a clause stating that if the patent is ever overturned the contract would be lifted, but even if they didn't it would most likely be breakable.

(As far as the exact wording on the contracts, I have no idea... because none of them have ever been released to the public. If any of them were public companies, yes they would have to be... but none of them are. K2 is the only current publically traded paintball company I believe.)
so ur saying that if the patent WERE invalidated, then chances are, the companies that had settled with SP outside of court probably would be able to invalidate the old settlement contracts as well in court?

if they were signed w/out a clause saying that the contract would be lifted if the patent were invalidated, how would it still be "breakable"?

[comando345]

Ghost you are the single luckiest person in the world. Either that or you just didn't pay attention to whose equipment broke down(no offense). I suppose it is possible that SP stuff only sucks in Ohio :crazy:

[Ghost2867]

or it could be that SP just doesnt like u :P

i mean...ive seen dozens of new shockers...a few old ones, many, many imps, and even more SP barrels.

all of them looked like they were shooting and working fine.

ive shot a few of them, and they all shot great as well.

SP has great s***, but they still can suck my ____

[UTLadiesMan]

I really highly doubt that anybody would have signed a contract without that clause. If they had, it would be a lot harder to break out of the contract, but not impossible. They could show that SP had bulleyed them into not including that... but then they should have gotten a contract mediator... so, yeah, a lot harder. Honestly, it'd probably depend on the judge.

Also, even if they hadn't put that in (again, highly doubtful) then there of course would be a termination and renegotation date in the contract. Quite frankly, anyone who signed a contract without a termination date for a patent or an early invalidation clause doesn't deserve to own a company. :P

[comando345]

My experience with SP has been bad. Quality control is an important factor of running an ethical buisness, witch SP does not.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan
Also, even if they hadn't put that in (again, highly doubtful) then there of course would be a termination and renegotation date in the contract. Quite frankly, anyone who signed a contract without a termination date for a patent or an early invalidation clause doesn't deserve to own a company. :P
:laugh:

ok, sounds good then...now im gonna hope an pray that SP tries to take own WGP or BE...then k2 can hand them their a** in court... :D

Originally posted by comando345
My experience with SP has been bad. Quality control is an important factor of running an ethical buisness, witch SP does not.
so long as their quality control is better than that of kingman, ill be happy. but like i said before, there are always bad ones that come out...the only thing odd is that u got so many in just ur area...

they probably really dont like ur area...:P

[comando345]

Ever owned a Tippmann marker or a Toyota car? Now thats quality!

[DragonX8806]

Originally posted by Comando345

My experience with SP has been bad. Quality control is an important factor of running an ethical buisness, witch SP does not.

can you explain your bad experience, i personally like them and their markers, specificly the impulse but anyways id like to know why you didnt have a good experience.

[comando345]

Read my post a few pages back. I bought an 02 shocker and a maxflo tank. It was a real bad experience.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
Ever owned a Tippmann marker or a Toyota car? Now thats quality!
tippmans yes are quality markers.

but that's also cause theyre so damn sturdy...i mean, hell...throw 'em off a skyscraper and i'd be willing to bet money that it'd be alrite(so long as the tank isnt on it of course... :P ).

but hey...tippmans are unique.

[comando345]

Lots of companies manufacture quality product. Palmer, J&J and AGD for example. Im speaking from personal experience with the products of each respective company. I really don't think SP has an excuse.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
Lots of companies manufacture quality product. Palmer, J&J and AGD for example. Im speaking from personal experience with the products of each respective company. I really don't think SP has an excuse.
im 100% sure that ppl have had problems out-of-the-box with JJ and AGD products...

otherewise, they woudlnt have warranties and/or customer service

[comando345]

yeah but the quality difference is apparent if youve owned products from all the listed companies. True every company will produce bad products sometimes, but does that mean every company has the same quality? My SP warranty was expired before I ever got to use it.(bought it in the late fall) If they would at least put some testing into their manufacturing process then my problems would never of happened.

[Ghost2867]

ill bet it was just some lazy drunk ppl on the assembly line...

like they probably hired hobos or something...i mean, since they produce everything in the US(or so they claim), they've got to get cheap labor somewhere, rite?

;)

[comando345]

Either way their quality still sucks. I like your hobo theory though :laugh:

[UTLadiesMan]

Let's get back on to topic. The only part of SP we should be discussing is their legal department. The rest of the company may have their own problems, but that rests outside the scope of this debate. :pirate:

[Ghost2867]

i wish more ppl would post here...honestly...

so...

when the time comes, do u think SP will renew their patent?

[comando345]

Do you know patent law ghost? I don't, seriously. Could you explain how their patent can be renewed etc. I don't understand how they can make such a broad patent in the first place... but then again I don't know patent law. If not ghost, does anybody have a good understanding of patent law?

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
Do you know patent law ghost? I don't, seriously. Could you explain how their patent can be renewed etc. I don't understand how they can make such a broad patent in the first place... but then again I don't know patent law. If not ghost, does anybody have a good understanding of patent law?
when a patent is requested, it goes to the patenting office or w/e.

then the patent is pending.

then the patent ppl look over it, and they either pass it, or they dont pass it.

in this case, it obviously was passed.

any patent is good only for a certain number of years so that the one company cant always have a complete monopoly over the competition.

once it expires, the company has the option to renew the patent for another few years or so. this costs money, but it would be easy money for SP.

at least that's how i think it works...not completely sure tho.

[comando345]

So maybe we should write the patent office to try and convince them not to renew SP's patent! Might be a worthwhile effort, even people who love SP hate their patent. We should see about how to start a petition, I am sure many people at my field would happily sign the petition. What do you think Ghost?

[UTLadiesMan]

It doesn't work that way. The renewal is automatic, it's more of a clerical fee if you will. Yes, it costs them another 2 grand every few years, but in this case it's money well spent. However, if you patented something that nobody would ever be able to sell for a profit, or if you patented like... the teleporter and it has no chance of being created within the next 20 years... then you wouldn't renew it. If you had a chance to make it yourself or if someone else might make it and you could sell them the patent... then yes, it might be worthwhile... However they don't want to keep up with meaningless patents, and even those that are meaningful require labor to keep them up. So, there's a renewal fee.

[comando345]

For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees. Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. Note: Patents in force on June 8 and patents issued thereafter on applications filed prior to June 8, 1995 automatically have a term that is the greater of the twenty year term discussed above or seventeen years from the patent grant.

Thats from the US patent offices website as to how long patents last.

Well, when did SP file? Looks like a long time to wait. SP will be so screwed when the patent expires,

Disenfranchised Consumers + No Patent = SP in real trouble.

[UTLadiesMan]

They filed in 96, but didn't get approved until 01.

Also, SP without patent in 20 years means nothing.

Only company who makes good markers for cheap (only company who has developed new products and manufacturing in 10+ years) + customers who don't remember or care = $$$

[comando345]

I feel that SP will fall into bad habits again, I could be wrong though.

[Ghost2867]

who cares...

like we said before, SP's run out of companies to sue as of now, and i doubt that they'll ever be able to take down k2.

and i still dislike SP.

[jdolla]

Question about Impulses. A few guys that I know and have seen play have mostly stock Impulses. For some reason, every hundred shots or so, the bolt won't return, and it makes a hissing sound. What causes that, what does the Tapeworm do to fix it, and why hasn't SP put the Tapeworm stock on an Impulse, since all of them have that problem?

[comando345]

You might wan't to post that in the SP markers forum. This thread is primarily for us anti-SP folks to vent our frustration.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by jdolla
Question about Impulses. A few guys that I know and have seen play have mostly stock Impulses. For some reason, every hundred shots or so, the bolt won't return, and it makes a hissing sound. What causes that, what does the Tapeworm do to fix it, and why hasn't SP put the Tapeworm stock on an Impulse, since all of them have that problem?
yea, ur definitley gonna wanna put that in the SP forum...

[comando345]

You know, as big of a company as K2 is, that doesn't neccesarily mean they would win. SP started with small companies to establish "case law" to make it easier to win future lawsuits. Im not even sure you can bring civil suits to higher courts. It would be great though, if SP sued K2, lost, and then due to case law lost challenges by companies they already sued. I don't know enough about the justice system to know if that is in any way possible, but there is always wishful thinking.

[Ghost2867]

the thing is, we all as paintballers kno that SP's patent is completely BS...

the problem is, ur average judge and jury and w/e doesnt kno that.

K2 with all the money that htey have would be able to keep the trial dragging on for months on end, and that'll be enough time to give them all a crash course on paintball and what not, and enough time for them to financially drain SP.

at least i think so...

UT, clear this up?

[comando345]

No doubt that SP's resources are nothing compared to K2's, but SP has set precedent, and I know that counts for something. If you can bring civil suits to higher courts, they could over turn previous rulings, but im not sure you can bring it to higher courts.

[Ghost2867]

SP has taken down AKA (or did they settle out of court? i forgot...), and settled with a number of ohter companies.

they have no real legal precedence.

[comando345]

That makes me wonder if they will have to live by the agreement even if someone like K2 beats them. It's so sad that vikings are gone, they are by far the nicest guns I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot of guns pass through my field. :bawling:

Hey ghost, it says your gonna buy a freak? O black day when somone who doesn't like SP will still buy their barrels.

But seriously though, have you looked at the J&J edge kit? I have one and it is super nice, and for less money too.

[UTLadiesMan]

SP has yet to finish a case in court. Every company so far has settled outside of court. I am rather surprised that SP didn't make outrageous demands for some company and then when not met, sued them just for the court appearance... but they probably know what's going on better than I do.

Also, if this was to go to court, the entire debate would be on the legality of the patent. The rest of the case is pretty clear cut, but that's the only area open for interpretation. Also, that wouldn't have much to do with paintball... these judges and lawyers see the same cases with different industries all the time. Is this telecommunications product patentable? Is this IC package patentable? Etc... It would all come down to weather or not electronics on a paintball marker is novel enough and if so, did SP really come up with the idea first. Honestly, it could probably go either way, depends on how good the lawyers are on each side. Though I would have to give the slight edge to the non-SP side... like white gets the 40 point advantage in chess.

[Ghost2867]

yay...im just gonna hope and pray that SP tries to take down some company...

Originally posted by comando345
That makes me wonder if they will have to live by the agreement even if someone like K2 beats them. It's so sad that vikings are gone, they are by far the nicest guns I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot of guns pass through my field. :bawling:

Hey ghost, it says your gonna buy a freak? O black day when somone who doesn't like SP will still buy their barrels.

But seriously though, have you looked at the J&J edge kit? I have one and it is super nice, and for less money too.
like i said, i like SP products, but i h8 the company. enough to make me not advertise them in ANY way.

the freak im buying is used. the guy im buying it from got it used, and i believe it was used for the guy before my seller as well.

its one helluva hand-me-down...so yea...

plus im gonna tape over the barrel back so u cant see the "smartparts" thing or w/e...:P

[comando345]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
im gonna tape over the barrel back so u cant see the "smartparts" thing or w/e...:P

:laugh:

Yeah, that will probably be cheaper. I guess some people have good luck with companies while others do not. I have had good luck with J&J so I stick by them, I have had nothing but trouble with SP so I hate them. If I had truly good experiences with SP I would consider their actions almost forgivable, but I have not.

UTladiesman, sounds like you have some experience with this whole patent issue. Anything else youd like to share? Seriously, have you done research or something, or did you try and patent something before?

[Streaks]

I posted this in the news forum too, but didn't realize that this forum gets so much more traffic until after.....Here is what I saw at the AKA site today :(

*plays the Imperial March*

"March 1st, 2004
AKALMP, Inc., Low Pressure Experts, has reached an agreement in the lawsuit with Smart Parts, Inc. AKA is not a licensee of Smart Parts and the terms of the agreement are strictly confidential.
Within the terms of the agreement the current production run will be the last of the Vikings and Excaliburs. Contact your local dealer or AKA for availability and price.
AKA will still repair, service and upgrade Excaliburs and Vikings and will honor all applicable warranties. AKA will also continue to manufacture and sell their line of marker upgrades and accessories as well as develop new products. There are several exciting and new products debuting in 2004. AKA looks forward to the 2004 Tournament season and meeting all of you at the tournaments.
AKALMP, Inc."


To quote Vader "You are bEaTeN!"

What a rub....what a _#$*%+'n rub....I wanted to get an Excaliber this year too :(


I just don't see WHY they are trying to gut the industry they helped build. And they are just cutting their own throats in the process! I mean, there are already cries to boycott them....c'mon! Man, just does NOT make any sense!!!

[comando345]

There are still vikings/excals available new, but not for long. It's sad, the vikings and excals are the nicest guns available bar none.

[Ghost2867]

that's old news

[Streaks]

Well I knew that they were involved in the suit, but I'd not known about the settlement. And the announcement there is only March 1st 2004....so I'd not call that old.

[comando345]

Yeah, well it's old news if you haunt the forums.

In other news, there haven't been any anti-sp flames in here for a while, I am kinda disappointed. :(

[UTLadiesMan]

Why are you disappointed? It makes me giddy with excitement. :P

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Streaks
Well I knew that they were involved in the suit, but I'd not known about the settlement. And the announcement there is only March 1st 2004....so I'd not call that old.
pbstar had an article about that in hte middle to the end of the 03 season.

old news.

[Streaks]

About them having to quit their production? Even though they just posted it on their own site?

Well, if so then I obviously _don't read pbstar_ :roll: :)

[comando345]

You ever seen Cape fear? I just wanna quote the crazy guy when he gives his "traitors" speech.

[rock]

hold up though, didnt ICD make the first electronic marker though. And the nazi's are sayn they did, thats just what i heard.Anyway i dont like SP at all, the impulse might be good but there big and heavy, the old shockers might as well be a brick, and the new shockers are gas hogs, the barrels are only good because people buy them cuz there friend tells em its good. I might go burn down the main SP office building if they keep it up....jk

[comando345]

No, im pretty sure the old shoebox was before the bushmaster. Technically I have heard their was an e-conversion for the carbine and phantom before the shocker was made but apparently they didn't file for a patent. If you really want to hurt SP, don't buy their stuff. Ever.

[rock]

hmm ok, but could WGP sue SP cuz they both make cocker but i do know that WGP had the first cockers so did they sell the right to make em?

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by rock
hmm ok, but could WGP sue SP cuz they both make cocker but i do know that WGP had the first cockers so did they sell the right to make em?
no, cause the evo cocker is a certified cocker.

wgp LET them make them, like freeflow, eclipse, belsales, kapp, etc.

other ones, like system-X, hybrid quest, dragun, etc are NOT certified cockers. wgp could sue them, but why would they?

and even if SP cockers werent certified, why would wgp sue them? SP hasnt done anything to them, nor has SP shown any signs of doing anything against WGP, so there's no point really...

it'll just make WGP look like an a**hole.

[comando345]

I dunno, if somebody took out SP they would be the toast of the town, at least for a little while.

[Ghost2867]

no one's gonna take down SP...they sponsor the majority of the teams in the NXL, and they sponsor a LOT more in the open circuit.

in addition, they have some of the best markers around(except in ur opinon...:P ), some of hte best regs, air systems, one of the best barrels, and they have a LOT of hype behind them.

SP isnt going ANYWHERE...

[comando345]

My shocker worked very nice, ounce I worked through all the problems. You never know about companies. Id bet a lot of people thought AMC would always be. Id bet a lot of people thought japanese cars would never sell. Right now electros are the hot thing, ounce something else is SP will no longer enjoy their advantage.

[Ghost2867]

i think that this is the point where paintball will more or less cease to come out with major innovations, like from pump to semi, from semi to electro...

it just wont happen.

just like some other action sports and such...

i think from here on, the focus will shift from revolutionizing guns to revolutionizing gear...

my $.02

[comando345]

Well, I think that their will be an increased effort to bring down the cost of performance. Since SP has made the electro short cut go away, a mechanical solution will have to be found if a truly high performance gun will be available cheap. The new ULE RT mag takes a big step in that direction.

[Ghost2867]

like we said before, SP has no place to go.

they arent really gonna be stopping anything anymore...

however, i would like to see where mech technology could go...

[Vaypourus]

Originally posted by Ghost2867

i think from here on, the focus will shift from revolutionizing guns to revolutionizing gear...

my $.02

I don't know if I agree with that. Smaller companies that have already backed down to avoid trouble are going to have to revolutionize something about thier guns to stay out of the cutting swath of SP. I would imagine that AKA will head in a different direction, rather than take the fall.

Electronics are not 100% necessary in a gun...AGD has proved this and will continue to do so.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Vaypourus


I don't know if I agree with that. Smaller companies that have already backed down to avoid trouble are going to have to revolutionize something about thier guns to stay out of the cutting swath of SP. I would imagine that AKA will head in a different direction, rather than take the fall.

Electronics are not 100% necessary in a gun...AGD has proved this and will continue to do so.
at this point, i simply cant imagine how mech guns will be like that...

i just dont see how anyone could in any way imitate AGD in that sense.

what do u think AKA's gonna do?

[Streaks]

You know, I've yet to see a real firearm that has the same kind of electronics like we have in paintball (there ARE weapons that feature an electronic ignition but they are few and far between and VERY different).

So I don't understand why you have a difficult time with it(?) I mean, it is more than possible to do! :)

[teufelhunden]

That's because no single barrel firearms shoot 22 bps.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by teufelhunden
That's because no single barrel firearms shoot 22 bps.

[Streaks]

This is true, in fact the only one that I know of off the top of my head is the MAC10

http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/mac_10

...which runs about 20rpm.



However, it would be quite possible to make mechanical trigger groups that fire just as fast. Don't dismiss it just because everybody went to electros and quit making nice mechanicals :) After all, look at the Automags, before the electros they were getting quite fast! And it is possible to make a mechanical trigger that is even finer than the electros (possible exception being the beam trippers).

And the biggest reason that single barrel firearms can't get up into that range of rpm, is that a cartridge is a lot longer and weighs a hell of a lot more than a paintball. They are also dealing with recoil which means they have to make the parts tougher depending on the caliber and ROF. I was simply saying that mechanical triggers _can_ be just as good as the electros. To argue ROF is to include the whole device, not just the triggers.




Streaks

[UTLadiesMan]

Except most firearms that have a rate of fire that high are full auto. You don't see many people with a p90 walking the trigger...

[Ghost2867]

u said 20rpm?

u do understand that that's rounds per minute, rite?

which would mean...one shot every 3 sec?

am i messed...or did u write a typo?

[Streaks]

doh...sorry yes it was a typo!!


And ya duh no crap I know they are full auto, being able to 'walk the trigger' doesn't mean something is 1. more advanced in design or 2. constructed any better.

Again, the biggest reason that single barrel firearms are slower in their cyclic rates is that they have to do a much longer linear throw of the bolt than a paint marker does. If you some how get around this by either adding more barrels, or making the bolt and breech in a way to accomindate shorter throws, then you can get just as high of a ROF. Also the other problem is _pressure_ firearms don't opperate at 200-800psi!! My .45ACP maxes out around 21000psi chamber pressure. Lord only knows what the milspec weapons are doing! With that much pressure you want to be sure the weapon is safe. This means keeping it's cyclic rate lower.

I've handled pistols who's triggers were scary they were so light. A relation of mine had a 1911 that he was trying to get rid of because he had the trigger too light, you literally only had to bump the side of the pistol for it to disengage the sear. I've seen hunting rifles that use the dual stage trigger setup and could go off if only ounces are applied to their second trigger.

I just don't see why some people think that paint tech is more advanced than real firearms. It isn't even close and mechanical trigger groups could be just as good as electros, or even better IMO.




....kids :rolleyes:

[jonbob]

At really high rates of fire you would also have problems with the barrel overheating on firearms. You eventually also get cook-offs with the round detonating in the chamber because it is so hot.

Obviously paintguns don't really have heat issues because they use compressed air as opposed to exploding gas.

[Streaks]

Exactly.....firearms are made for safety of the shooter in mind as well. Mechanical triggers and breeches can withstand the cyclic rates that paint markers produce no problem. The rest of the weapon simply isn't designed to do it in most single barreled weapons for the sake of safety. Still, 700-900rpm is quite fast when you consider the force being exerted there!

[UTLadiesMan]

The point is, there is no real reason for real firearms to have triggers comparable to our electro triggers. You could always go full auto if you needed the speed, and for everyone else it's probably better to make sure you WANT to pull the trigger before going off.

Paint markers and firearms are very different in purpose and design. Really that makes this argument asinine as it has nothing to do with the SP patent.

[Streaks]

It is an offchute argument that was founded in the topic actually :)

I simply was saying that the whole electro thing could be done away with and that mechanical triggers can be made just as good. To that end I was defending my statment when other folks seemed to disagree......so it is going a bit astray true, however it is still OT IMO.

We aren't comparing the intended use of each trigger. But, I at least, was trying to point out that a mechanical trigger can rival that of the electro stuff any day. That's all! :) To say that firearms have a different use is the moot point IMO. It has no bearing on whether or not their trigger groups can or cannot sustain the same ROF of our electronic triggers.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Streaks

I just don't see why some people think that paint tech is more advanced than real firearms. It isn't even close and mechanical trigger groups could be just as good as electros, or even better IMO.




....kids :rolleyes:
hey, if i can get paintball...anyone can.

i dont get guns...at least i havent tried to...

paintball guns are simple.

pull trigger, air pushes ball out the barrel and onto someone's mask.

[Streaks]

Originally posted by Ghost2867

hey, if i can get paintball...anyone can.

i dont get guns...at least i havent tried to...

paintball guns are simple.

pull trigger, air pushes ball out the barrel and onto someone's mask.


LOL glad to see someone 'gets' it! :)



Streaks :hippie:

[jdolla]

I just found out today about something new in the Smart Parts patent issue.

Go to page four of this thread. Scroll down a little, and you will see links to a few paintball related patents. One of them is the Smart Parts one, a couple others are under the name NPF for the company. The first NPF one sounds a lot like the Smart Parts one, and it came a few years earlier.

NPF is a subsidiary, (at least now, I don't know about when they got the patent), of WDP. And now NPF is suing SP.

Something else to think about, a hopefully it'll get this thread back onto the subject of SP, and not real guns. The link to the full article is below.

http://www.paintballstar.com/pn/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=186

[jdolla]

Umm..........

Never mind, I just found that a thread about it had already been started. I thought it seemed weird that no one had mentioned it yet.

[Streaks]

heh, quite true, back to paintball! *apologizes*


I hope they nail SP!!

[Ghost2867]

SP wont go away, and i dont want them to.

[Streaks]

Well, I don't want them to go away actually. But I'd love to see them put in their place or at the very least beaten down a little.

I simply cannot see why they are going through with this. It is stupid, they are slitting their own throats. It would be like Ford suing every other car manufacturer for a patent on the car. Or McDonalds suing everybody else for the hamburger!

It won't make them very popular with the market they are involved with. They are a rather large company and involved deeply in the sport. Why then should they wish to shake the foundations of said sport and tarnish such a good reputation??

.....I know.....I know......money......would just be nice if a few companies were actually in the sport for the sake of making good products. You know, for the players, by the players type of thing.

:)

[Ghost2867]

this is where id love to see blacksheep come in.

i agree with him in thinking that what SP did was almost a complete positive.

like he said, the paintball industry has been living in a fairy tale land where every company is simply trying to compete with better products over trying to shut each other down...

SP simply gave the industry a slap in the face, and woke it up more or less.

all this is, is some healthy competition between companies.

[Streaks]

I can see your point....as long as it doesn't turn into another Micro$oft is all.

However, I DO think it is ultimately BAD. Fairy tale? How so? How is it a fairy tale when an industry works towards goals together in friendly competition rather than bashing each other to bits on the rocks of the courts?

It will take cheaper markers away from the hands of the very people we need.....new blood....back in the day it was only the 'cocker and 'mag for me and each was $300+ at the proshops! Do we want to see that again?

Next someone will try and patent the sear or the goddam valve spring or something stupid like that. The whole thing is going to hell in a handbasket! :mad: I mean, FINE, if SP wants to do th eir thing and have the patents...great...more power to them...absolutely their right...

DON'T WAIT YEARS TO SPRING THEM!!!

THAT, is dirty pool....pure and simple.

Look at other big industries were a company holds a patent on something but everybody uses it. Computers for example.....I'm pretty sure someone has a patent on the hard drive.....and DDR memory.....and motherboard designs of all kinds. Yet (with the possible exception of RAMBUS :roll: ) they all get along splendidly.....except for Apple....I just won't go there :)

I simply see no logic in it......a rule of thumb to live by is that you don't take a dump where you sleep or work....they are doing both.

[Ghost2867]

interesting point...:tup:

i just hope it doesnt go that far...

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Streaks: I think the computer patents probably have expired by now. And who is to say they got the patent, or everybody else found a way around it.

But paintball was in a fairytale land with nothing that ever bad happened. And this type of competition is better in the long run. It will force people to think outside the box instead of making it an option.

[Ghost2867]

u can renew patents.

[Streaks]

Originally posted by LAMANTEthePBguy
Streaks: I think the computer patents probably have expired by now. And who is to say they got the patent, or everybody else found a way around it.

But paintball was in a fairytale land with nothing that ever bad happened. And this type of competition is better in the long run. It will force people to think outside the box instead of making it an option.


I don't get it...what is so wrong about having an industry where nothing bad ever happens? HOW is that POSSIBLY a BAD thing? Seriously, I just don't understand that point of view.

Ok I can see a little bumping and grinding here and there sure. But to attempt to GUT the industry and send it back to the stone age of the sport!?!? Square-1, all over for many people. HOW is that even remotely a GOOD thing?? Perhaps people don't realize the scope of what SP is doing. IF they gather steam and actually pull this crap off, the sport will NOT be the same for YEARS, IF _ever_.

*shrug* Maybe it's just me.

[Ghost2867]

that's the thing tho...SP WONT gather steam and pull the s*** off.

especially now since a subsidiary of WDP sued SP back...

that'll slow down SP a HELL lot.

[Streaks]

I sure hope so :(

[Ghost2867]

dont worry...SP really cant do anything.

u dont have to hope...nothing that bad's gonna happen...

however, i still pissed that vikes and excals will be no more...

[Streaks]

Oh man you and me both. Even used ones are still expensive. And of course when it looks like I might be able to actually get one in a week or two (home equity loan), it is too late :mad: I'm not going to be get'n enough play money to get the one I want, (Highlander with either the "mt. dew" or "pumpkin" fades), so I might have to settle for one that is closer to stock.....if only they'd have made some in side feed *growl*

[Ghost2867]

vert > side feed. period.

[Streaks]

Depends on what you are wanting. I like to site down the barrel and shoot at targets almost 200' away.....I have a great deal of difficulty doing this with a vertical feed :) I never play speedball either so rate of fire isn't as important to me.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Streaks
Depends on what you are wanting. I like to site down the barrel and shoot at targets almost 200' away.....I have a great deal of difficulty doing this with a vertical feed :) I never play speedball either so rate of fire isn't as important to me.
if u were to send a gun to someone like doc nickel, he could probably do it for u...he has to be THE best airsmith in the world...

check out his site at http://www.docsmachine.com/

[Streaks]

You know I actually thought about that (thanks for the link btw). But wasn't sure what he'd charge for something like that. Not to mention that I should get it done before I get it annod.

[Ghost2867]

email him and find out...doc's a great guy from what ive seen, and he DOES make hte greatest paintball web-comic in the world! :D

[Beatmanias]

what does anything u guys have said have to do with smart parts?


Btw I really hope that WDP wins this... because it'll teach smart parts a good lesson: Don't be greedy and stir *stuff* up... it'll only end up biting you in the arse later on.

[Streaks]

:laugh: your just coming in on the tail end of it man. We almost got to flames a little while ago over SP :)

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Beatmanias
what does anything u guys have said have to do with smart parts?


Btw I really hope that WDP wins this... because it'll teach smart parts a good lesson: Don't be greedy and stir *stuff* up... it'll only end up biting you in the arse later on.
SP doesnt need to be taught s***. SP is the hero here...they went and taught the REST of the paintball industry how to do business outside of the fairy tale world that the industry had been living in up until now.

[Streaks]

I still disagree. You shouldn't canabalize the industry you support or you might find yourself out of a job one day. And this is exactly what they are doing.

In a sport where a bad rep can kill a company. Where the latest fads turn the tide of sales. Where all it takes to make or break sales is one hot player endorcing your product......how then does SP expect to stay in the business after all this, no matter HOW it pans out?

I for one will never.....EVER buy another SP product again, and I suspect I'm not in the minority either.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
u can renew patents. Eventually they run out.
Originally posted by Streaks
I don't get it...what is so wrong about having an industry where nothing bad ever happens? HOW is that POSSIBLY a BAD thing? Seriously, I just don't understand that point of view.

Ok I can see a little bumping and grinding here and there sure. But to attempt to GUT the industry and send it back to the stone age of the sport!?!? Square-1, all over for many people. HOW is that even remotely a GOOD thing?? Perhaps people don't realize the scope of what SP is doing. IF they gather steam and actually pull this crap off, the sport will NOT be the same for YEARS, IF _ever_.

*shrug* Maybe it's just me. Well, at the beginning of paintball, no one patented a lot of things. Pin valves, HPA tanks, gun designs, etc that all have revolutionized our sport. They opted not to patent them in so the sport would grow. Well now it did, and they don't need to do thing sliek that for the industry to grow. Granted people usually patent things today, SP is a wakeup call to our industry. They are letting people know that now this industry has politics as well as making paintball. Its letting companies know that now they have to actually think about covering their tails a little, and not expect everything to always work for them.

And that second paragraph is ridiculous. It would in no way send us back to the stone age of paintball. The worst that can happen is price increases, and maybe a few smaller companies going out of business. Its not going to ruin our sport. The professional level will see no change, and I doubt we will either. People will always be willing to shell out a little more for something they like better, granted the Impulse will seem like a good option for the price. People like to take this issue and exaggerate it a little too much sometimes.

[Streaks]

Who all will be under this blanket suit? Any marker with an open bolt and electro frame? If SP makes them stop making their markers, will this not hurt? Hell even if they have to just retool for the time being it'll suck.

Personally I think the whole "professional level" of paintball was a two edged sword. Yes it got the sport out there in the lime light, but it also has put the glittery, flashy, blinged out spin on it. But then, I admit to disliking speedball and admit my view is more than likely tainted because of it.

[Ghost2867]

name ONE company that you think SP will be able to shut down in the near future.

name ONE.

anybody?

[comando345]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
name ONE company that you think SP will be able to shut down in the near future.

name ONE.

anybody?

They could get Spyder clone makers to stop making sear trippers. Kingman, Dragun, PMI etc.

[Beatmanias]

Originally posted by Ghost2867

SP doesnt need to be taught s***. SP is the hero here...they went and taught the REST of the paintball industry how to do business outside of the fairy tale world that the industry had been living in up until now.


well i wouldn't exactly call them "heros" casue they have done nothing to save anyone.

[Streaks]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
name ONE company that you think SP will be able to shut down in the near future.

name ONE.

anybody?




AKALMP has quit making markers. While this is not shutting them down I'd like to point out that is only because they started off as a machine shop and have that to fall on. Not to mention their line of accessories.

bah, it is all speculation at this point anyways.

[Beatmanias]

well all they got left are their regs... and it's the best reg so they can probably live off of that until they find some way around the sp patent.

[Streaks]

That and the valves and bolts :) Plus they make them all for lots of markers.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345


They could get Spyder clone makers to stop making sear trippers. Kingman, Dragun, PMI etc.
kingman? no. kingman's sales are as of now infintely higher than SP's will ever be.

in court, kingman could drag it on so long that it wouldnt be worth it for SP to have taken them in the first place.

and eihter way, why would SP try to take down a blowback-producing company? blowbacks and SP's imps and shockers are in different realms of the industry whether u or i want to admit it or not...

by eliminating the "beginner gun", i dont think SP would get that many more sales...

Beatmanias: actually, i woudlnt consider them heroes either, but WDP's subsidiary(whatever its name is) isnt necessarily a hero eihter...i kinda got carried away...lol

streaks: ur rite, at this point, almost everything pertaining to the topic is speculation...

AKA wont disappear...they have enough other products to keep them alive...and in any case, their vikes and excals didnt really sell very much...i mean, when was the last time u saw two vikings on the field at once?

[comando345]

Well by your own admission spyder clones can be quite nice. I doubt they would eliminate them but rather tack on royalties to raise the price.

I really think AKALMP is down for the count now. They are still reeling from the SP suit and now a WGP suit seems just over the horizon. The excal and Viking were just taking off, it really is a tragedy.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
Well by your own admission spyder clones can be quite nice. I doubt they would eliminate them but rather tack on royalties to raise the price.

I really think AKALMP is down for the count now. They are still reeling from the SP suit and now a WGP suit seems just over the horizon. The excal and Viking were just taking off, it really is a tragedy.
of course blowbacks can be quite nice...however, it doesnt change the fact that spyders, and other blowbacks period are beginner guns...it gets taht label only becuase it truly is what all the beginners get.

i dont think SP will go after companies catering more to the beginner or entry-level player.

AKA is completely fine...like i said, their guns never really sold much, and i doubt they made up very much of their overall profit in any case. they sell enough stuff other than their markers that SP, or any other patent as far as i kno, cant touch.

and trust me...SP wont try WGP...with K2 backing them, SP will be banrupt before any conclusion is reached in the case.

WGP is safe.

[comando345]

Originally posted by Ghost2867

and trust me...SP wont try WGP...with K2 backing them, SP will be banrupt before any conclusion is reached in the case.

WGP is safe.

No, I meant that WGP might sue AKALMP. AKALMP's losses were surely brutal, and a suit ending the production of their only remaining gun may be the final nail in their coffin. I really hope your right that AKALMP will survive, but somehow I doubt it.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by comando345


No, I meant that WGP might sue AKALMP. AKALMP's losses were surely brutal, and a suit ending the production of their only remaining gun may be the final nail in their coffin. I really hope your right that AKALMP will survive, but somehow I doubt it. How would WGP sue AKA? Their cockers are WGP certified.

[p8ntfreak98]

Nope, merlin is not.

[Ghost2867]

then all AKA has to do is take the word "autococker" out of the name of their products...

[comando345]

Originally posted by Ghost2867
then all AKA has to do is take the word "autococker" out of the name of their products...

Im pretty sure WGP has already done that. I believe they have now stepped it up to try and force people making non-certified cockers to stop. Wow, this got off topic.

It's a shame, SP really has opened up Pandora's box. I know you think its the "real world" of business, but I don't think so. What SP has done is just plain bad business, they have hurt the industry for petty gain and now K2/WGP are gonna do the same thing. In my opinion they need to form a "Paintball Manufacturers Alliance". Spiffy name huh :) . Just get all the big makers and distributors in on it and agree to fair business practices and sharing of ideas. It would be better for everybody. Ideally, all the companies could even pool their R&D together. Don't say thats impossible either, the Japanese Auto manufacturers have been doing it for years(Joint R&D).

[Streaks]

Have to agree with you there commando, although I hope WDP doesn't go after AKA full force, perhaps they'd just make them get certs or something.




Streaks - AKA and WGP fanboy :D

[comando345]

I have a feeling WGP would want a big cash settlement, which I think would bankrupt AKA at this point. They have to be hurting right now.

[Streaks]

Well, remember that they were an established company BEFORE they got into doing paintball products. They are a full machine shop who does the paintball biz on the side :D

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by comando345
Im pretty sure WGP has already done that. I believe they have now stepped it up to try and force people making non-certified cockers to stop. Wow, this got off topic.

It's a shame, SP really has opened up Pandora's box. I know you think its the "real world" of business, but I don't think so. What SP has done is just plain bad business, they have hurt the industry for petty gain and now K2/WGP are gonna do the same thing. In my opinion they need to form a "Paintball Manufacturers Alliance". Spiffy name huh :) . Just get all the big makers and distributors in on it and agree to fair business practices and sharing of ideas. It would be better for everybody. Ideally, all the companies could even pool their R&D together. Don't say thats impossible either, the Japanese Auto manufacturers have been doing it for years(Joint R&D). But unlike SP, WGP's actions will help people. The good quality cockers are made by WGP, and non-WGP, are certified because they care about thier products. WGP is just taking out the crappy cockers that are poor quality and only hurt the consumer. Go into a cocker forum, and I bet nine out of ten people will tell you the only cocker worth buying is WGP made because the other ones are just crappy knock-offs. SP is taking out the good guys too.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345


Im pretty sure WGP has already done that. I believe they have now stepped it up to try and force people making non-certified cockers to stop. Wow, this got off topic.

WGP cant make them stop producing them...unless the company refuses to take the name "autococker" off of them.

WGP does NOT have a patent on the design, but only a copyrite on the name.

and keep in mind...not all fockers are bad...like systemX isnt all that bad at all...i'd still take my worr-cocker over it of course...hehe

[comando345]

Can you find any fockers calling them cockers? Im pretty sure they have already taken care of that long ago. So why announce after its all take care of, that you are going to take care of a problem that has already been solved. With money like K2's you could hire lawyers to get anything through the court. To me this announcement could only mean they are trying something pertaining to the actual mechanics of the cocker'.

WGP's actions are specifically to eliminate close substitutes to their guns from the market. The reason is so that they can charge a much higher price for their guns. It's simple economics, reduce supply with the same demand and the price goes higher. Just like SP's actions it will hurt both consumers(you) and dealers. Thats why I say an alliance of manufacturers and dealers could benefit the industry.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
Can you find any fockers calling them cockers? Im pretty sure they have already taken care of that long ago. So why announce after its all take care of, that you are going to take care of a problem that has already been solved. With money like K2's you could hire lawyers to get anything through the court. To me this announcement could only mean they are trying something pertaining to the actual mechanics of the cocker'. except then WGP would be suing over something they legally cant...

WGP's actions are specifically to eliminate close substitutes to their guns from the market. The reason is so that they can charge a much higher price for their guns. It's simple economics, reduce supply with the same demand and the price goes higher. Just like SP's actions it will hurt both consumers(you) and dealers. Thats why I say an alliance of manufacturers and dealers could benefit the industry.
WGP is part of two of paintball's largest "alliances"...K2 owns BE, which owns jt and vl, and then there's NPS which owns everythign else...lol

seriosuly tho, WGP cant do s*** about the mechanics of their guns...there's no patent on them.

but they can crack down on companies that use the word autococker without WGP certifying it.

ill look up more on this later when im more awake

[comando345]

So what are they talking about then? Does anybody still use the term autococker? I haven't seen a company do that in a long while. They must have a plan, or at least a purpose with their statements.

[Ghost2867]

i tried asking on wgpppress...no result

i have no idea what WGP's trying to do here...

later if i have the time, ill try emailing wgp directly

[can'tthink of1]

First thing when my tribal I got off ebay got here, took off the SP jewels off of the sticky grips.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by can'tthink of1
First thing when my tribal I got off ebay got here, took off the SP jewels off of the sticky grips.
:tup:

or...not

i dont care anymore really

im up for SP products so long as they're good(shocker = crap), but i just hate the ppl who run the company

[comando345]

But don't you see by buying from them, you support them? If we could organize an effective boycott then they would be forced to end the licensing. Boycott's have worked before and they could work this time too.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

The problem is, there is no unity in the PB world. Sure they worked in the past becasue everyone was united and felt the same way. Pb is all over the place, and you would have no effective way to reach the masses.

[Caleb98]

did dynasty drop SP???

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Caleb98
did dynasty drop SP???
nope...they're still rockin' teh dynasty shocker, freak and maxxy

[AR55 MtM]

Originally posted by comando345
But don't you see by buying from them, you support them? If we could organize an effective boycott then they would be forced to end the licensing. Boycott's have worked before and they could work this time too.
There isn't enough people in the paintball world to do that.

[Ghost2867]

sure there is...

taht's where SP gets all their money...ppl buying their products.

if we could organize a boycott with enough ppl willing to take part, tehn SP would be screwed.

but i wouldnt take part...i own a freak(even if i bought it like 4th generation used). i like it. im not a fan of SP's management, but i am a fan of their products(minus the stock/vision shocker of course)

[comando345]

Even if you like their stuff there are close substitutes to anything they make. The J&J edge kit is as nice or nicer than the freak and for less money.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
Even if you like their stuff there are close substitutes to anything they make. The J&J edge kit is as nice or nicer than the freak and for less money.
lol...if u wanna buy me one so i stop using my freak, then go ahead...;)

[t33kyboy]

buy me one too.

[comando345]

To try and bring this thread back on topic. SP is bad for the industry, I don't think you guys disagree with me on this one.

This incident along with recent lawsuits against people downloading music combined with outrageous prices for medicine have lead me to question whether or not Patents and copyrights have gone too far. I don't think that anyone should have exclusive rights to any given idea or design for more than 3 years. If you can't recover your investment in that period than your not an efficient operation and don't deserve those exclusive rights anyways.

[Streaks]

Sorry but I disagree there. If I make a better Widget(tm) then I sure as hell want money for it. Even if the law places a time limit on it like three years or whatever, I want my money for >MY< idea.

The difference is that I won't spring the new idea on the world, let everyone assume it is an open, free, fair market in WidgetDome(tm) and then a bunch of years later, bend them all over the barrel because I'm such an arse-hole!!! I think I'd get the business end of lawsuits pointed at me....and only if I was lucky! Otherwise it might be the business end of something cold and blue in a dark ally ;) ....not that I'd EVER wish that on SP execs or anything :halo: :D :D



Hrmm....my sig file is get'n a bit long :D

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345
To try and bring this thread back on topic. SP is bad for the industry, I don't think you guys disagree with me on this one.

i do actually.

ive explained it before...about the whole positive competition and all that.

the only downside i saw/see is AKA's gun production getting shut down.

[Streaks]

Hey, nice drawings there Ghost! :)

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Streaks
Hey, nice drawings there Ghost! :)
thx...even tho that's off-topic...:P

[Streaks]

Ya I know, but this topic is really stagnant for the time being IMO :)

[comando345]

Originally posted by Ghost2867

i do actually.

ive explained it before...about the whole positive competition and all that.

the only downside i saw/see is AKA's gun production getting shut down.

I don't see how SP adding overhead and or shutting down other manufacturers products is good for healthy competition. If SP had provided a good product at a good price they would have been fine without suing anybody. They failed to do that and economics began to take its tole. Then they started the law suits out of desperation.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by comando345


I don't see how SP adding overhead and or shutting down other manufacturers products is good for healthy competition. If SP had provided a good product at a good price they would have been fine without suing anybody. They failed to do that and economics began to take its tole. Then they started the law suits out of desperation.
they DO provide good products at a decent price however.

they introduced real-world competition into paintball where its not always about who can come out with the better product, but who can stay alive.

[Streaks]

The problem with that Ghost, is that it goes from being a friendly, competitive and PRODUCTIVE enviroment. That encourages change and growth, to one of cut throat and watching your back. Now only the big companies will be able do anything safely. HOW pray tell is that HEALTHY?

Competition through attrition is NOT healthy.....PERIOD. It will quickly narrow the field down to only a few, very large companies who can do anything without fear. Smaller companies cannot survive making markers. Sure they can make parts FOR markers but only larger companies --> WHO HAVE THEIR OWN MANUFACTURING FACILITIES<-- will be able to make their own markers. Companies that are smaller and are resellers of other brands will be impacted.

I simply cannot see HOW you think this is going to be healthy! I'm not trying to land a jab here but man, you must not have any experience with the market place in general much less how companies function in way of product placement. Perhaps if you could expound a bit on your experience and WHY you feel this way (i.e. some personal experience with a similar matter or something), then it would help me to understand why you insist on clinging to this befouled notion that what SP is doing is healthy!? :eyes:

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by Streaks
Competition through attrition is NOT healthy.....PERIOD. It will quickly narrow the field down to only a few, very large companies who can do anything without fear. Smaller companies cannot survive making markers. Sure they can make parts FOR markers but only larger companies --> WHO HAVE THEIR OWN MANUFACTURING FACILITIES<-- will be able to make their own markers. Companies that are smaller and are resellers of other brands will be impacted. Competition is healthy. Compare the USSR to the US in the time period. US=good products USSR=products no one will buy but the people that are forced too. Also, competition helps to eliminate bad products. If you make a bad product, it wont sell, and the good product will. If competition was eliminated, people would be forced to buy the bad product. Thats part of the reason our country outlaws monopolies. Read The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith. I never have, buy his ideas are what our country's economic principles are founded on.

[Streaks]

I was under the impression that monopolies were when one or two big companies have the market cornered. Kind of like what is trying to happen in our sport right now.

[Ghost2867]

u have a point...

meh

ill keep using my freak anyhow.

[comando345]

Obviously they didn't provide the best product for the best price or they would never have needed to use litigation to succeed. The industry would be healthier without SP's ridiculously broad patents.

[Streaks]

Here here! :D

Though, I DO say their products are pretty good in all honesty. However, I suspect it is more of a matter of "gee, our markers aren't selling well because they are being left in the dust...hmm what to do...and now there's newer, better barrels out there...hrmmm...AH HA!! SUE 'EM!!"

Read as: I can't win so I'm taking my toys and GOING HOME! *in pouty little kid voice*

[Ghost2867]

they are one of the most succesful companies in the industry actually...

i think they just wanted to shove out ICD which is their main competition since they make nearly identical guns...(bushies)

i cant really think of a counterpart for the shocker, but i cant imagine anyone buying a stock on in any case.

[Streaks]

Sure they are, but I don't think the backbone of their success is the marker lineup but rather their parts list.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Streaks
Sure they are, but I don't think the backbone of their success is the marker lineup but rather their parts list.
that's true.

well, the impulse maybe...that is definitely their backbone gun no matter what they say, and its pretty damn common.

[Streaks]

True, the impy has always had it better than the shocker though I could never understand why...but then I have also never used either :)

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Streaks
True, the impy has always had it better than the shocker though I could never understand why...but then I have also never used either :)
old shocker was messed up period...horrible efficiency, and by today's standards, it was an ugly POS.

impulse came out next. combine an affordable price with one of the greatest regs on the market, and a good barrel to boot, plus better efficiency and good speed as well...plus when the vision eye came out, it not only was the first one ever, it actually worked well. u can imagine. there was an explosion of custom impys coming out by this time...all of SP's pro/am teams were making htem.

then, all the other electros came out. other companies were ACE'ing their markers, and speed was no longer something to really consider in a marker. the impulse became average, it became an "entry-level electro-pneumatic"...

that's where tehir new shocker comes in...with a completely revamped design, its one of the lightest markers on the market. it in NO way resembles its predecessor wehtehr by looks or design. the only thing it shares with the original shoebox shocker is its horrible efficiency.

the new shocker has waaay too many problems out of the box to be really considered as a contender. barely 800 shots with a full 68/4500 fill is ridiculous, so u have to get their high-efficiency bolt, whihc is another $100. that takes it to around 1400. not bad, but that's an extra $100 u had to spend. then, its like spyders...some ppl's shockers work like a dream out of the box, and others just plain suck.

i personally just dont like the new shockers...however, impys will always have a place in my heart...:P

wow...long post

[Streaks]

Haven't used the new ones yet but I loved the old ones by comparison if for no other reason than they were side feed ;) And when you put a freak or tear drop on them they became whisper quiet :D

Yikes, for $1400 you could get a new Excalibur :love:

:crazy:

[comando345]

They got another one....

http://www.warpig.com/newswire/prwire_releases/1089301842025.shtml

[Streaks]

Oh but remember, it's a GOOD thing for the industry :rolleyes: :crazy:

Man that is a shame. PMI's little fish are kick arse Spyder clones. And if they are going after the resellers/clone makers of Kingman...

any bets as to how soon it takes them to start battering at Kingman's gates? Looks like they're bottom feeding right now, circling and going after the weaker companies first that they know can't stand up in court on their own and afford it.

I give it up 'till later next year.





(sarcasim) but remember, this will HELP the industry! *grin @ Ghost*

[Ghost2867]

lol...

they wont last against kingman...it'll be an interesting show, but i think kingman would somehow make it out.

[comando345]

I don't know much about law suits, but if Kingman showed that SP's claim has no merit in court, would that in any way affect the previous rulings?

[Ghost2867]

well, that wont happen, but...i dont think so...im not sure, but i think the statement in the consitution that says, "no double jeopardy" prevents that...can someone else try? cause i doubt im right...

[UTLadiesMan]

So far everyone has settled out of court so it depends on the way that the contracts were written. SP has been very adament on the confidentiality of each of those contracts so none of them have details available to the public.

However, every company should have had a clause in there to be able to invalidate the whole contract should the patents ever be rescinded. If not, they probably aren't smart enough to warrant being in a competitive marketplace. :P

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Well PMI falling, I don't know. Is this a sign that they might not be able to beat SP in court? I don't know if its still just the money. I bet the settlement in the long run for however many years SP holds their patent will still be cheaper than bringing them to court, even though they probably have the funds etc.

[comando345]

Everyone assumes it will be kingman that they are building up to, but I think it might be BE. If I was in the paintball industry I would have banded everybody together back when ICD got sued and hired the best lawyers money can buy to fight SP.

[Ghost2867]

BE is linked to JT and VL directly, and less so to WGP...and they're all backed by K2...

K2 > SP.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Yes K2 does have the cash. Take a look at their site http://www.k2inc.net/ Look at all those affliates on the scroller thing.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by LAMANTEthePBguy
Look at all those affliates on the scroller thing.
holy smurf...

that's all i can say...

[Jeezer]

Originally posted by Streaks
Oh but remember, it's a GOOD thing for the industry :rolleyes: :crazy:

Man that is a shame. PMI's little fish are kick arse Spyder clones. And if they are going after the resellers/clone makers of Kingman...

any bets as to how soon it takes them to start battering at Kingman's gates? Looks like they're bottom feeding right now, circling and going after the weaker companies first that they know can't stand up in court on their own and afford it.

I give it up 'till later next year.





(sarcasim) but remember, this will HELP the industry! *grin @ Ghost*

Uh, re-read that article buddy, that lawsuit was against the PIMP kit, and if you dont know what the PIMP kit is, its pretty much Evil's version of the Impulse. Good effort on the SP bashing though.

[Streaks]

Ya I saw that afterward. However I could see them going after sear trippers easily enough.

I know what the kit is ;)


Personally I see no problem with bashing a company that is trying to dismantle the industry in favor of a dictatorship. :mad:

[Jeezer]

Originally posted by Streaks
Ya I saw that afterward. However I could see them going after sear trippers easily enough.

I know what the kit is ;)


Personally I see no problem with bashing a company that is trying to dismantle the industry in favor of a dictatorship. :mad:

Man I hate it when people are so dramatic, no offesne to you buddy. But Smartparts probably wouldnt go at it with sear tripper cause they dont have that type of patent. They went after ICD and Evil cause of their similarities to the Impulse.

[Streaks]

Well, sorry you dislike dramatics and all that. But honestly I think everything is too early to call at this stage. So call me a doom-sayer if you will. But will still loathe SP. But from were it stands, it is easy to see how SP might try to extend their grubby paws into every aspect.

[Jeezer]

You really over-estimate Smart Parts.

[Streaks]

I hope you are correct :)

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by Jeezer


Man I hate it when people are so dramatic, no offesne to you buddy. But Smartparts probably wouldnt go at it with sear tripper cause they dont have that type of patent. They went after ICD and Evil cause of their similarities to the Impulse.
except they could easily make it seem that hybrid-electro blowbacks infringe on their patent.

[comando345]

I have heard that virtually any gun with an electric on/off would fall under SP's patent. Don't know if it's accurate but that's what I heard.

[Ghost2867]

that's true. i read it...while it says electro-pneumatic, the description pretty much makes any gun with a solenoid and an on/off fall under it.