Float type anti-siphon?

[Bloencustoms]

I have been tossing around an idea for an anti-siphon that could work no matter what the tank's orientation is. You would need to find a lightweight, flexible tube made from a material that isn't harmed by cold temperatures, or liquid CO2. On the end of this tube, a float with enough buoyancy to keep the end of the tube out of the liquid CO2 would be attached. This way, no matter how you tilt your marker or screw your tank in, you will never draw liquid CO2 from the tank.

If anyone has any ideas for what materials could be used to construct one of these, I'd like to hear them.;)

[chibissj]

Interesting however, how would this work. If it floated that is, how would it then connect into the valve. And intern how would that tube continue to have the top part sticking up towards the top of the tank? because if it just floated, then it would float on top of the liquid but then when it did this, either it would have the bend into the liquid or out of the liquid, so position would still matter.

Because I get your point, but how would that work? Maybe something like weights to keep it oriented a special way?

[Bloencustoms]

Well, I was thinking a float similar to a fishing bobber. They have a small weight in the bottom to ensure that the orange end floats upward.

[travsstuff]

I thought about that but with that the hose might get twisted up and kink sometimes. I also thought about rigging up something with ball bearing and a bouyancy thing to where the hose could rotate and not kink.

[Bloencustoms]

What if the hose were covered with short sections of plastic tube? Have you ever seen those jumpropes that are made this way? It might help to reduce kinks in the hose...

[Lurker27]

The 2nd sentence is the problem here.

what you'd really want is not a flexible tube, but one that rotates, and is airtight, exactly like a quick disconnect.

have a QD or other airtight rotating coupling attach the siphon tube to the base, and a float affixed to the siphoning end.

Problem solved.

Or you could just get HPA. CO2 is fine except uinder the durress of high ROF

[Bloencustoms]

Ah! Good idea! Don't worry, I already have two HPA tanks. I'm just tossing around ideas to make CO2 more marker friendly for those who don't have acess to HPA. I think the rotating rigid tube might be the way to go. I am a little concerned that a float might not be able to overcome the friction of the seal in the elbow, so a counterweight on the opposite side of the elbow from the tube might work better. You could make it as heavy as it needed to be.

[f2f4]

Originally posted by Bloencustoms
a counterweight on the opposite side of the elbow from the tube might work better. You could make it as heavy as it needed to be.

That's exactly what I was thinking! :D

However, where would one find a "rotating airtight seal" (for the anti-siphon)?

[Lurker27]

...In a quick disconnect fitting, as I mentioned? ;)

[chibissj]

Originally posted by Lurker27

Or you could just get HPA. CO2 is fine except uinder the durress of high ROF


Good idea for those who can't get it.

lets add this up:

Spend money for tank: $100 (a semi good one)
Gas money: $50 minimum.
Air: $4 fill.
1000 shots later you're done for the day, unless wait! Buy more than 1 tank.
$100x times.

Hmm...kind of sounds like a waste... for people like me, who's hpa is 560 miles away round trip.:( Cry for me...

[Relentless]

I too have thought about this idea before, but I think it would be much more logical to have a small weight attached to the bottom of the hose rather to have something float.

the fishing thing could get broken from all the pressure...

just my two cents, and i think anti-syphons would be much more popular like this.

[Raptorz922]

Actually, I've heard of a way to make an any direction anti-siphon with a brass tube. When tanks are filled, they are only filled with approximately 30-40% liquid. What you do, is measure the inside length of your tank and cut your tube to exactly half that. This way, no matter what direction you turn it, the tube is at the 50% level, which the 30-40% level liquid could never reach.

[f2f4]

Originally posted by Raptorz922
Actually, I've heard of a way to make an any direction anti-siphon with a brass tube. When tanks are filled, they are only filled with approximately 30-40% liquid. What you do, is measure the inside length of your tank and cut your tube to exactly half that. This way, no matter what direction you turn it, the tube is at the 50% level, which the 30-40% level liquid could never reach.
Heh.
That actually sounds like it might work...another project for me to do sometime! :D

[silver_streak]

the anti siphon described would work, but how many shots would get. it would make smaller bottles obsolete and make for larger and heaver bottles. eventually every bottle would be 50 oz and made of alu. I think its possible but it would never catch on in the paintball world.

[Bloencustoms]

There's no reason CO2 bottles can't be fiber wrapped just like HPA. They could even be lighter... the wrap wouldn't need to be as thick because it only has to hold CO2 pressures.

[Lurker27]

Actually, there is...fiber is brittle when cold.

[504p8ntbalfreak]

Please qualify your statement. I currently own two Fiber wrapped CO2 tanks. One uses a 114ci 3000psi tank. The other uses a 68ci 3000psi tank. If you go to the smart parts web page, they offer a CO2 max-flo setup. IT USES a fiber wrapped tank. Until you show me a justified response, I'm going to assume you know nothing about this topic. I'm not one to make fun of someone for not knowing something, but I do get annoyed when people post to topics they know nothing about...

just a thought,
504p8ntbalfreak


P.S. If you show proof, I will more than gladly retract my above statement.
P.P.S.
Read sig...

[grizwald]

aquarium aeration tubing. You can buy iy at wal-mart or any place like that. It is dirt cheap, it can withstand cold (won't freeze up bad), it wont burst (as long as it is inside the tank and the pressure is even on the outside as the inside the tube). glue it to the screw on part of the a/s tube (saw off the tube) and attach a piece of foam at the end and it should work. Great ideia

[Raptorz922]

Originally posted by 504p8ntbalfreak
If you go to the smart parts web page, they offer a CO2 max-flo setup.

Uh... Where?

[504p8ntbalfreak]

Here (http://www.smartparts.com/BBIQ150.htm)


This is a setup for a CO2 max-flow.

[Lurker27]

That link says nothing aobut co2...I control-Fed the thing to be sure. In fact, that particular page is for battlebots, not paintball.

In addition...The problem arises when one fires so much in such a short period that the tank cools down quickly, and to a very low temperature. The problem is aggravated by a high external temp- a warm day. The resulting temperature difference can cause the "shell" inside to contract, actually slightly "peeling" itself away from the bonded epoxy/fiber outer wrapping. Many such temp cycles (shooting a lot in one game, letting the tank warm up between games, then shooting a lot the next game, then getting the tank "dumped" to get it filled again, etc) can progressively 'loosen' more and more of the shell. Once there's fairly significant area is debonded, the resulting tank is no longer as strong as it was- thus it may very well fail the next hydro.

[danny_eva_01]

Originally posted by Lurker27
That link says nothing aobut co2...I control-Fed the thing to be sure. In fact, that particular page is for battlebots, not paintball.

In addition...The problem arises when one fires so much in such a short period that the tank cools down quickly, and to a very low temperature. The problem is aggravated by a high external temp- a warm day. The resulting temperature difference can cause the "shell" inside to contract, actually slightly "peeling" itself away from the bonded epoxy/fiber outer wrapping. Many such temp cycles (shooting a lot in one game, letting the tank warm up between games, then shooting a lot the next game, then getting the tank "dumped" to get it filled again, etc) can progressively 'loosen' more and more of the shell. Once there's fairly significant area is debonded, the resulting tank is no longer as strong as it was- thus it may very well fail the next hydro.

*sniff sniff* whats that i smell? could it be pwnage? 504p8ntbalfreak, i think you better apoligize, thought you said this guy,lurker27, didn't know what he was talking about? man, don't you love it when people get served?

Click here to see what lurker27 just did to 504p8ntbalfreakhttp://www.hunt101.com/img/142765.gif

[Bloencustoms]

I am looking at the '01 Smart Parts catalog. They say in plain english text that the 300 psi maxflo fiber wrapped tank can be filled with both air and CO2. Now, own your own shame. :rolleyes:

[504p8ntbalfreak]

Originally posted by danny_eva_01


*sniff sniff* whats that i smell? could it be pwnage? 504p8ntbalfreak, i think you better apoligize, thought you said this guy,lurker27, didn't know what he was talking about? man, don't you love it when people get served?

Click here to see what lurker27 just did to 504p8ntbalfreakhttp://www.hunt101.com/img/142765.gif


its a shame...

[Lurker27]

You trusted Smart parts in '01, and look where that got us. ;)

Anyway, fiber debondng is still a real issue at high rates of fire... the maxflo tank interior aluminum/steel shell must be pressure rated for at least 1000psi, then.

[danny_eva_01]

It is common knowledge that co2 is toxic, and that refilling tanks wear the interior, hence why they sell co2 tanks as steel or aluminum.

And I'll quote an article from pb2x magazine October 2003, the one with the fallen angels on the cover.

"We jokingly say we've got kevlar-wrapped scuba tanks, but that's more a description than accurate nomenclature. Carbon fiber tanks have a thin aluminum vessel inside wrapped in epoxy derivative impregnated carbon fiber (similar in manufacture to fiberglass). This explains it's relatively light weight. Putting co2 into these vessels can be done but it is a good way to degrade the metal - if you already have a faulty tank and you add the characteristics of co2, not a good outcome. Co2 is highly acidic type of gas...
...Where the thin metal lining of the tank may be affected by some oxidation from the greater presense of moisture and impurities in co2(toxic)."

Yea there you have it. Sure you can put co2 into a fiberwrapped tank, but highly unrecommended if you don't want to pay for another tank soon.

Lurker never said you can't put co2 into a fiberwrapped tank, he just said the idea was flawed.

504 please research the topic before you comment on it.

But this is far off topic. I would stick with lurker's idea about the QD.

[danny_eva_01]

Originally posted by Bloencustoms
I am looking at the '01 Smart Parts catalog. They say in plain english text that the 300 psi maxflo fiber wrapped tank can be filled with both air and CO2. Now, own your own shame. :rolleyes:

Never said it isn't possible, just said it wasn't a smart idea.

[Bloencustoms]

As far as the toxicity of CO2 is concerned, I don't think you have too much to worry about. I have been drinking soda for 30 years and haven't died yet. CO2 is expelled from your body with every breath. It is however, mildly acidic when dissolved in water. (carbonic acid) Unless you have a bunch of water in your tanks, CO2 probably won't harm them. I understand that you want to "win" this argument, but you have to realize that you are indeed wrong. My choice to purchase or not purchase smart parts products has absolutely nothing to do with the use of CO2 in fiber wrapped tanks. I cited the catalog to show you that you are in error when you stated that CO2 cannot be used in that type of pressure vessel. I do understand that cooling and heating cause contraction and expansion, so don't think you are telling me something I don't know already. I also understand that tanks have to pass a hydrostatic test on a regular basis. This test is to ensure that damage of the type you described has not occurred. The fact is, CO2 can be used in fiber wrapped tanks. Now, before you decide to post again, think about a few things:

1. You are wrong.
2. I am right.
3. Any further attempts to "win" this discussion will only result in more embarrassment for you.
4. If you are trying to "prove" something, you should try playing some paintball, I was at practice while you were posting in here.
5. You aren't making a good impression on anyone by nitpicking people's posts to bits. It doesn't make you appear more intelligent, it only makes you appear insecure.

[danny_eva_01]

Also from the same article

"Co2 is highly acidic type of gas. Worse case of a co2 fill under pressure, not much changes. If the cylinder is empty and draws in any atmosphere, you have the potential for a condensated inside the tank which, in combination with any contaminants in the relatively unclean and inexpensive co2, may begin to affect the integrity over time. Aluminum oxidizes where steel rusts, but the decay is similar."

So yea, yet again, sure you can fill fiber wrapped tanks with co2, its just not recommended.

This started as a thread to help you out then it suddenly became a tool for you to lash out at others. I have not only provided facts but sources. And as for you, you are just misinformed.

I don't understand what co2 gas has to do with this. We are talking about liquid co2 right? Where the concentration is higher right? Therefore more deadly.

And as for you telling me repeated times that co2 can be used with fiber wrapped tanks, I already agree with you on that. See previous posts. It just isn't a recommended idea.

[danny_eva_01]

Yet again far off topic, if you want to debate more we can do so through PMs.

And as for the anti-siphon idea, i think lurker's idea with the QD is good.

[Lurker27]

I wasn't contending that they didn't make the tanks, only that its not a good idea.

For normal use, its dandy, but quickly dumping out lot of CO2 can lead to temperatures approching -40*F. The issue Isn't necessarily with the gas (CO2 is the conjugate acid for carbonic acid, true) but with the extreme temperature changes the tank could POTENTIALLY undergo. Surely you can see the distinction and admit that a laminate of two materials, which absorb heat AND expand at diverent rates, especially when the interior contracts faster than the exterior, is not a particularly good design for longevity.

By your logic, PVC, which has a pressure rating of aobut 300psi, could be suitably used with CO2. run a tank of Co2 into PVC in about 5 minutes, regged down to the pressure rating of the PVC, and you might just reinvent the pneumatic fragmentation grenade.

Now stop being obstreperous and agree.

[Bloencustoms]

Back to my original statement...

There's no reason CO2 bottles can't be fiber wrapped just like HPA.

And in fact they are. I am not disagreeing with the fact that different materials expand and contract at different rates, or the possibility that over time this can cause a separation or weakening of the tank. What I do disagree with is the alarmist attitude you guys have about the use of CO2 in fiber wrapped tanks. When the hydro test date comes up, if there is weakening, the test will detect it. Thus, safety is not an issue. A fiber wrapped tank which is designed to be used with CO2 like the Smart Parts Maxflo has to take all of the factors you mentioned into consideration. The rapid release of air also causes heat absorption, though to a lesser degree. (No pun intended.) You can see evidence of the heat generated when a tank is filled rapidly as well. All pressure vessels when rapidly filled or emptied undergo the expansion and contraction you describe, without regard to the gas with which they are filled.
Once your argument that the expansion and contraction factors make CO2 a bad choice was refuted, you chose instead to approch the issue from a differnt angle, the "highly acidic" nature of CO2. Which is it?

"fiber is brittle when cold"
The layer separation theory.
The corrosive properties of CO2

What will you come up with next? :rolleyes:

As far as the corrosive properties of CO2 are concerned, the article cited above is very vague about the actual degree of damage that could occur. "Over time" could mean anything. Next time you quote an article, let's see some numbers. I want to know just how much damage CO2 will do to a fiber wrapped tank when properly maintained over the period between hydro tests, and used to power a paintball marker. I seriously doubt you will find any evidence that enough damage could occur to render the tank unsafe in the amount of time allotted between hydro test dates. "It's not recommended" doesn't hold any weight with me, because you haven't supported that recommendation. Who doesn't recommend using CO2 in fiber wrapped tanks? The guy who wrote that article? What's his name? Does he work for the DOT? Carleton Pressure technologies? Luxfer Cylinders? Catalina?

As to the purpose of this thread, it was not started to help anyone, particularly me. The purpose of this discussion was to share ideas about improving the function of anti siphon devices in CO2 tanks, fiber wrapped or otherwise. Lurker popped off with a flippant comment...

Actually, there is...fiber is brittle when cold. ... just to be contrary.
Then you have a bunch of people with too much time on their hands trying to play catch up to justify their ridiculous assertions. I will not "agree" with the unsupported idea that CO2 is not recommended for use in fiber wrapped tanks. I also will consider any more bits of "wisdom" you guys choose to post here as more of the same. My recommendation to anyone watching this thread is to do your own research and ignore the dubious rantings of anyone who interjects into a thread about anti siphon devices with a lecture about layers of composites, their expansion rates, and their behavior at different temperatures. The fact remains (dubious, unsupported recommendations aside) that fiber wrapped tanks are manufactured and distributed with the intent that they be used with CO2. If it were so corrosive and "toxic" that it would damage tanks within an unreasonably short period of time, nobody would be manufacturing CO2 tanks.

Finally, I have no wish to engage in any private messages with anyone on this subject, because I am confident that I would not learn anything from them, based upon the information presented here. If there is indeed information to support the recommendation against the use of CO2 in tanks designed for that very use, I think it is only fair to share it with anyone who has been following this thread. Additionally, I don't want anyone who might be reading this discussion to limit their options by taking recommendations against the use of CO2 in tanks designed to be used with CO2. That would be completely ridiculous.

[Bloencustoms]

Additionally, Lurker posted...Surely you can see the distinction and admit that a laminate of two materials, which absorb heat AND expand at diverent rates, especially when the interior contracts faster than the exterior, is not a particularly good design for longevity. Does this not apply to HPA as well?

I freely admit that fiber wrapped tanks undergo the stresses you describe. However, those stresses occur when any gas is compressed inside them. You have now made it unclear whether you recommend against the use of CO2, the use of CO2 in fiber wrapped tanks, or the use of fiber wrapped tanks altogether.

[danny_eva_01]

Originally posted by Lurker27
The 2nd sentence is the problem here.

what you'd really want is not a flexible tube, but one that rotates, and is airtight, exactly like a quick disconnect.

have a QD or other airtight rotating coupling attach the siphon tube to the base, and a float affixed to the siphoning end.

Problem solved.

Or you could just get HPA. CO2 is fine except uinder the durress of high ROF

I was talking about his idea about the quick dissconnect as a solution to the anti-siphon question.

[Lurker27]

Heating doesn't cause the separation, you dolt. I'm done with this, and from the looks of it, you are too.

[Bloencustoms]

Originally posted by Lurker27
Heating doesn't cause the separation, you dolt. I'm done with this, and from the looks of it, you are too. Ok, the rapid temperature decrease caused by expanding gas (this happens when any gas expands) will cause materials of different composition to contract at different rates (because cooling causes contraction). If the aluminum liner contracts at a different rate than the composite wrap, the two can separate. HEATING CAUSES EXPANSION. The same debonding can occur when a tank is pressurized as well. The liner and the composite wrap will expand at different rates. This is the same principle by which bimetallic strip thermometers work. Have you never felt a tank right after it has been filled? It's hot. Obviously you didn't take the time to read my post carefully. Nowhere did I mention heating causing debonding, but if cooling causes it, heating must as well. I did mention heat absorption, which is a more accurate description of what occurs when a gas expands and is synonymous with cooling. "Cold" is not something that can be created, it is merely the absence of heat. When a gas expands, (or a liquid changes into a gaseous state) it absorbs heat.
I'm glad you finally realize that you are done. You should have kept your mouth shut from the beginning, but you just had to keep it up. Now you're done, and I didn't have to resort to name calling. As for when I'm done, I'll be the judge of that.

[Lurker27]

I really thougt i was done.... contraction causes the liner to move away form the wrapping...heating pushes against it.


Your superior attitude is so far misplaced that it's ridiculous. My information comes straight from Doc Nickel, perhaps THE most respected mind in paintball.

[Bloencustoms]

So you are saying that heating couldn't cause the outer wrap to expand beyond spec, and separate? I thought you were done too. It's a shame you have turned a thoughtful discussion (which your initial contributions about anti siphons actually helped) into a personal vendetta. I am not going to quit refuting your statements. I have all the time in the world. This is going to continue untill you give up, because I am just that patient. Posting juvenile stuff like the attack on 504p8ntbalfreak has clued me in to the type of mentality I am dealing with here. You are stubborn. (That's not name calling, it's an assessment.) Eventually, you will reach a point where your pride is worth less than one more post. When that time comes, I will have won.

By the way, I asked a few of my friends and with a combined paintball experience of over 35 years, none of us has ever heard of anyone called "Doc Nickel".

[ta2maki]

they aren't talking about rates of expansion. rapid heating would cause the inner section to expand more rapidy than the outside, causing the wraps to compress together. if you threw the tank in a hot flame, you would get delamination as the outer wrap would expand faster than the inner wrap.

question would be, if it was possible under normal use to cause the fiber tank to delaminate before being retested(five years?)



Doc Nickel is old school dude. http://www.docsmachine.com/


and for your anti syphon idea, how about a x shaped pipe set perpendicular to the flexable tube and wrapped in styrofoam or other suitable low-density material. you would have some pipes in liquid but some will always be out of liquid. if co2 behaves like water then no liquid will go up the tube as the gas would be more fluid than the liquid.

[NochtFlamir]

Originally posted by Raptorz922
Actually, I've heard of a way to make an any direction anti-siphon with a brass tube. When tanks are filled, they are only filled with approximately 30-40% liquid. What you do, is measure the inside length of your tank and cut your tube to exactly half that. This way, no matter what direction you turn it, the tube is at the 50% level, which the 30-40% level liquid could never reach.


good plan, but someone gave you the wrong info......tanks are filled with 67% liquid, not 30-40%

[Bloencustoms]

The X shape pipe might be the ticket. I'd be worried that capillary action would draw some liquid up the bottom tubes and closer to the "hub" of the X. The other question is how bouyant would styrofoam be in liquid CO2? It would be hard to test without some kind of lab. Liquid CO2 might have different surface tension than water, which could negate or increase the capillary action.

I wonder if a system of baffles could be devised like an internal expansion chamber. Something long and narrow that would fit through the neck of the bottle, and force the liquid to pass through several stacked chambers before exiting the bottle. I realize that it wouldn't expand inside the tank, because it's still under the same pressure. Still, when the marker fires, the pressure in the chambers closest to the valve inlet would drop first, perhaps allowing some of the liquid to boil off before exiting the bottle.

[f2f4]

Well, I Googled "surface tension of CO2", and got this:... Supercritical CO2 has low surface tension making it a great candidate for reducing image collapse... and this: ... Instead, it employs supercritical CO2, or carbon dioxide under pressure and at elevated temperatures, which has no surface tension. ... Basically, I don't think it (the X-pipe idea) would work too well, since lower surface tension would lead to an exaggerated effect of capillary action, drawing some liquid CO2 into the marker anyways. The "internal expansion chamber" might work, I just don't know. :|

Anyone else have any other ideas? :)

[alexrusek]

My idea will work pretty good

Ok since the threads inside a co2 valve are 1/8npt a simple straight macro fitting will fit into it. Then weld or JB weld a brass tube into it.

First have a drastic bend down, then ahve it come up into to the top of the tank.

Now, we can do two things for it.

Put a weight(anything) at lowest point of tube, this will keep the low end down, and the open end up in the gas. One problem with this...co2 gas amy refreeze into a liquid when it passes thru the liquid co2, but i believe this is unlikely.

OR

Put a bobber type device at co2 level(harder to do, because every fill will be different, bobber would need to slide and junk) This isnt feasible really



Overall I think that this idea is great and could be easily done.


Anyone else thinks this is a great idear?

I'll have a prototype done in about a week's time or so....after i get some more tube and such.