Everything you wanted to know about range and accuracy!

[Saiyan_warrior]

LAST REVISED AUGUST 16th, 1999
An article by JLove written
All rights reserved. Copyright Paintcheck.com 1999

Introduction

Paintcheck receives TONS of mail every day from visitors to the site. Many of these messages ask the questions "what is the best barrel for gun XYZ" or "which gun has more range, gun A or gun B?".
This article is designed to answer those questions honestly.
If this subject matter interests you, please read the ENTIRE article and follow-ups before you send me e-mail. The article touches on physics, but is not meant to be a college course in Dynamics.

RANGE
Note about ball spin
We all know that backspin will affect a paintballs trajectory, but spin is outside the scope of this article because most paintball guns do not have bent barrels, and I feel that bolt design will do very little to produce spin. Spinning paintballs can also have adverse affects on accuracy, due to the irregular shape, size and weight of paintballs. Time will tell if manufacturers can produce a backspin barrel that will still be accurate. We will leave ball spin for another article. So other than ball spin, what other factors are there?

r-1
What affects the range of a paintball?

r-1a
Newton’s First Law states a couple very important things

1. An object at rest will remain at rest unless some unbalanced force causes it to do otherwise.here is this funny little thing in physics class that you might remember from high school called Newton’s First Law. Newton’s First Law is also called the law of INERTIA. Inertia is basically the force that it takes to move an object, and momentum is the force that the object carries with it as it is moving. You could also think of momentum as the force required to slow an object down as it travels. You will see how this applies to the range of a paintball in a second. I am not a physics major but I am trying to make a simple point.

2. An object in motion will continue in motion in a straight line with constant VELOCITY unless some unbalanced force causes it to do otherwise.If there were no wind resistance or gravity (as in outer space), an object would continue on a straight path with virtually unchanging velocity.

r-1b
Newton’s Second Law says: F=MA or (force equals mass times acceleration)

r-2
So INERTIA is equal to MASS x VELOCITY.

Now lets apply these laws to paintball. If you take a golf ball and a ping pong ball that are the exact same size, and you throw them one at a time as hard as you could, which would go further?

Obviously the golf ball would go further. Since it has more MASS than the ping pong ball, it takes more FORCE (due to its higher inertia) to throw it. This means it has more MOMENTUM than the ping pong ball. If two objects are going the same VELOCITY (300 fps), but one is heavier than the other, which one will go further? The one with more momentum. The ping pong ball and the golf ball may leave your hand at the same VELOCITY, but the ping pong ball will be decelerated by the air much more quickly than the golf ball. The golf ball also take a lot more FORCE to go the same velocity as the ping pong ball when it leaves your hand. To sum it up, there are only two things that will determine how much inertia the paintball has when it leaves the barrel.

Velocity of the ball
Weight of the ball

r-3
Trajectory (arc of the ball's flight)

Some people argue: "my gun has a flatter trajectory than gun A". This is another one of the great misunderstanding among paintball players. There is no such thing as one gun having a different trajectory over another. The proof to my argument rests again with Newton's Laws of physics. This application of physics is called "projectile motion". Basically, the factors that control trajectory are gravity, mass, velocity, and angle of the projectile as it leaves the gun. A projectile shot at 45 degrees will travel the greatest distance possible. An angle greater than 45 degrees will cause the ball to go
higher, but it will hit the ground closer to its starting point. A projectile shot at less than 45 degrees will hit the ground faster due to acceleration of gravity, causing it to not travel as far. Gravity is a constant, and the acceleration due to gravity (32.2 ft/s/s) is the same for all projectiles.

A ball of heavier mass will go farther, remember? So weight of the ball once again plays a part in the flight of the ball, controlling how high and how far the ball will go.

[Saiyan_warrior]

Now lets talk about other factors that affect VELOCITY, since the weight of the ball will not change very much in one case, but the velocity from ball to ball can vary greatly.

r-4
Barrel length affects velocity fluctuations

The way that a ball bounces around the barrel or drags against the inside of the barrel can have a profound effect on velocity fluctuations. Ball will touch the sides unevenly sometimes and drag will slow the ball down. The longer the barrel is, the more pronounced these fluctuations can be.
For this reason, a shorter barrel will have less velocity fluctuation than a longer one.

Balls that are out of round will also vary in velocity both because they drag differently in the barrel, and because they have unequal air resistance as they fly.

r-5
Air density

The barometric pressure changes constantly. As an exaggerated example, is it easy to run through water? Of course not. The weight of the water makes it harder to move through than air does. Slight variations in air density can have the same effect.

r6
What do vented (drilled) barrels do?

Barrels with holes in them do not affect the range of the paintball. Tom Kaye (owner of Airgun Designs) hired the people from Kodak to come out to his factory and shoot some high speed film of paintball guns firing to see what happens when the ball comes out of the barrel, etc. In one test, they had a
stream of smoke right at the end of the barrel. The barrel was SOLID and clear. When the ball emerged from the barrel, there was no "puff" of air that hit the smoke ahead of the ball. The only thing that hit the smoke was the ball. This debunks manufacturer claims that the holes in their barrels reduce air pressure in front of the ball.

r-6a
Vented Barrels Continued

Another theory by makers of drilled barrels is that the holes somehow equalize pressure in front and behind the ball, making the ball regain shape as it goes down the barrel. The claim is that the ball is more round making it travel farther in the air. What the holes actually do is release the pressure behind the ball, causing it to stop accelerating. They also make the gun quieter. That is all they do.

Airgun Designs used computers to measure the acceleration and power pulse behind paintballs as they travel down the barrel. What they found is that in most paintball guns the ball accelerates in the FIRST 8-12 INCHES OF THE BARREL ONLY. This means that if a barrel is any longer than say 12", it is only slowing the ball down in the barrel. Barrels that are drilled usually only have about 6" of solid barrel. This means their EFFECTIVE LENGTH is only six inches. Shorter barrels have less distance to accelerate in, so the ball sees more force to go 300fps. Once the ball goes past the holes, the air pressure behind the ball is GONE. The ball immediately stops accelerating.

r-7
Wobbling Paintballs?

Another popular theory is that the ball "wobbles" through the air like a water balloon. I have even read and heard people say that the front and back of paintballs are almost flat as they travel down the barrel. This is just not true. The slow motion pictures from AGD show the ball travelling down and out the end of the barrel and guess what? They are PERFECTLY ROUND. When the air pushes the ball down the barrel, the air CONFORMS to the shape of the ball, actually "cupping" the ball. This is because the pressure behind the ball is distributed evenly. If the air where to accelerate the ball like a piston, the balls would break, because a typical paintball sees around 3,000 Gs. That’s a tremendous force, but the ball can handle it because the PSI on the ball surface is only around 100psi.

r8 WHICH GUN HAS THE BEST RANGE

Now you know the truth. Negating backspin-inducing bent barrles, the answer is none. What I mean by this is that there is not ONE gun that can out-range all others because if its regulator, valve pressure, air chamber , etc.

If you hear someone say "man that guy's gun really out-ranged me",then you know that this is usually not true. The human perception of the balls coming at you makes it appear that the opponent has greater range than you. This may be true, but only if his velocity is higher than yours and his balls are heavier. That's it. Most players cannot see their paintballs in the air after they travel a certain distance. Usually it is impossible to follow the ball all the way to the target. If the other player is not ducking for cover as you are shooting at him, it may be because he is less afraid of getting hit than you gave him credit for. To you, it looks like your balls aren't reaching him, but in fact they may be, but he just has a lot of nerve. Another thing to remember is that better players will hang out longer in a long-ball exchange like this. You may give up on hitting him because he is not flinching, but he knows that the best chance he has of hitting you is when you are out of your bunker shooting. Suddenly he hits you, and you say "man that guy out-ranged me". This is a tough lesson to take for most people, because they expect other players to duck when they shoot at them. Knowing this bit of psychology will help you to defeat long ball opponents.

[Saiyan_warrior]

ACCURACY

a-1
Barrel choice usually does not affect accuracy

A paintball does not care what barrel it came from or how slippery the inside of the barrel was after it has left the gun. Accuracy is affected mainly by what happens to the ball AFTER IT HAS LEFT THE GUN. If the ball has paint on it or is dirty, the paint will alter the flight of the ball due to irregularities in the flow of air over the surface of the ball. If wind pushes on the ball, it forces it off course and it won’t go where you thought it would. If the seam is not formed well, or the ball is out of round, the air will not flow evenly over the ball and it will go off course.

Here is a list of possibly factors (in no particular order) that will affect your accuracy:

Velocity too high ( over 280 can cause curving)
Paint in the barrel
Dirt in the barrel
Oil in the barrel (after lubing gun)
Dirty paintballs
Out of round paintballs
Cracked paintball
Uneven fill mixture (old paint)
Dimpled paintballs
Wind
Humidity
Barrel bore too tight
Bent barrel

a-2
Ball spin does not affect accuracy?

The problem with spinning a paintball is that it is not solid like a lead bullet. You can get the shell of a paintball to spin, but the fill may not spin in sync. Ever spin a glass of water that has ice in it? The ice stays in one place. The fill of the paintball acts the same way, and after the ball leaves the barrel, the ball quickly stops spinning. Tom Kaye suggests that spin in not a factor below 3,000 rpm. I'm not sure I agree with him, but it is important to note that balls that curve badly after going through a dirty barrel do do because the paint/dirt that is on the ball does not allow the air to flow evenly over teh surface of the ball. Aerodynamics of a round ball are not so great because of the turbulence behind the ball, and when you shoot a ball through a dirty barrel it only makes things worse. Any variation in the shape of the ball will make it go off course. Many players assume that a dirty barrel causes a ball to spin, which makes it curve. The paint residue on the surface fo the ball has a more profound effect on the curve of the ball.

a-3
Turbulence affects the accuracy more than any other factor


There is a reason why the army does not shoot musket balls anymore. They aren’t accurate. The shape of a sphere going through the air causes turbulence behind the ball that can send it off course very easily. So basically the way that the air travels over the ball will affect it’s flight. Combine that with a paintballs low weight, and you get a projectile that is ill suited for long distance accuracy, and is easily thrown off course. Perhaps this is why so many players are obsessed with the "perceived" accuracy performance of their guns.

a-4
The worlds most accurate barrel

Hate to disappoint you, but there is no such thing. What you want to look for in a barrel is one that loads the ball gently, has an effective length of 8-12 inches, doesn't double feed, and has a bore that best matches the balls you are using. When I get mail asking "what do you think of barrel XYZ", I just laugh. There is no one barrel that is the best. If you play in competitions or travel from field to field, you are going to be forced at one time or another to use field paint. You cannot guarantee the balls are round, or that the fill is mixed evenly, or that the shell is not dimpled, or that the size of the ball will match you one "favorite" barrel. My advice on barrel selection is to get a few barrels that seem to perform well with the paint brand and color that you use most often. Having barrels of varying inside diameters will come in handy when the tournament paint doesn't work in your favorite barrel.

a-5
The worlds most accurate paintball

Hate to disappoint you, AGAIN, but there is no such thing. EVERY brand of paintball has good and bad batches. They vary slightly in size, weight, and shape. The best way to test a paintball is to drop them from about 4 feet high onto a concrete floor. If more than one or two breaks out of 20, then the shell is too brittle. You can fix this if you are stuck with brittle tourney paint by placing an open glass of water inside the case bag and sealing it up. Leave it for a couple of hours. This basically humidifies the balls and makes them more resilient. Ever seen a wet paintball after a rain? Well this isn't nearly quite that extreme, but you get the idea. The balls will break less in the gun.

a-6
Do heavier balls go straighter.

They can, but paintballs are not always round. Spin, weight and shape of the ball. Use heavier balls and they should go straighter, further, and they should hit the target harder.

a-7
Which balls are heaviest?

Usually the thicker the fill, the heavier the ball. Waxy filled balls are slightly heavier than other balls.An RP Scherer rep told me that their "gold" series paint has a nasty thick fill and is a heavy ball. That’s what you want to look for. RP Scherer Premium Gold would be my choice.

[Saiyan_warrior]

WHICH BARRELS ARE THE MOST ACCURATE

Now you know the truth. The answer is none. There is not one barrel that will work the best with ALL paintball brands, ALL paintball guns, and ALL paintball colors, in ALL types of weather. There are just too many variable for one to be the best.

Please send us feedback (info@paintcheck.com)your on this article.

[flyingdeadbody1]

thats why you get a freak

[high adjucator]

i think you left a few things out.

one.
the smoother a barrel is does make it more accurate. which as you would say causes less minor deformaties so the air jets it out evenly. and porting does do somthing other than slow the ball down, at the very end of the barrel where the bal escapes, there is usually a loud pop which is form the air presure escaping. if there is less air pressure "wobling" the ball at the end of its aim in the barrel.

two.
i believe closed bolt guns get more range for two reasons.
mainly because that a blowback gun always releases some air before the ball is actually in the barrel which gives the ball less propulsion.
and the bolt is at rest and less friction due to the breech and form escaped air.

i agree with you that the bolt doesnt matter because the air in the gun wants to return to its normal pressure of 1atm,
if you fire, the air wil always escape the same way.

[flyingdeadbody1]

yeah thanks for the newbie tips...

[KMA]

Originally posted by high adjucator
two.
i believe closed bolt guns get more range for two reasons.
mainly because that a blowback gun always releases some air before the ball is actually in the barrel which gives the ball less propulsion.
and the bolt is at rest and less friction due to the breech and form escaped air.

Quick question: If a ball leaves the barrel of a closed bolt marker @ 280 fps, for example, and leaves the barrel of a open bolt marker @ 280 fps, why would one go farther than the other? All things, other than the open/closed bolt configuration, being exactly equal of course. (no spin, same perfectly shaped paintball, barrel, etc...)

Hint: They'll go the same distance = no difference in range.

Maybe you can argue some efficiency claims... but I doubt much else.

Good luck!

[high adjucator]

your rigt i just thought about that right ebfore i read what you said.

and there is no such thnig as simulated closed bolt because "an object in motion tends to stay at motion, but the paintball doesnt have enough time to slow down unless the barrel if smaller than the paint. thusly there is (almost) no such thing as simulated closed bolt.:sleep:

ph yes and by the time the paintbal leaves the barrel it is traveling about 250 fps and doesnt lose speed untill about halfway through its flight. (thats proves what you said)

[MikedaPber]

Doesnt porting reduse turbulance on the ball?

[high adjucator]

thats what i said it decreases the POP and the wobbke at the end of the barrle and even somtimes within the barrel

[MikedaPber]

oops

[Chad51]

Does all of that mean I should just stick with my Tippmann stock barrel rather then get a Lapco Bigshot or a Dye Boomstick?

[MINDofSIN]

Yeah, if all that is true...why do stock barrels suck?

[high adjucator]

the have an insuperior finish, they are not slick, usually have some very minor things in them that cause the ball to g wayward,

and usually not much porting USUALLY also most stock barrels arent fit for proper paint to bore matches, if so you will notcie your stock barel firing more accurate than some aftemarket barrels with a bad fit

[Saiyan_warrior]

Its usually going to be the finish of the barrel or the Honing (the inside of the barrel) that makes it not quite as accurate as other aftermarket barrels.

[Chad51]

So would there be any difference if I get the Lapco Bigshot or the Dye Boomstick. Or is the Flatline not as bad as alot of reviews I have read? Im just not sure which one to get. I want increased accuracy and every other part of my gun is practically set up to snipe. I even have a laser sight on my Tippmann which with my stock seems almost pointless! It would also be nice to have the extra range of the flatline but are its flaws worth it?

[Chad51]

Can someone please respond. Also another barrel I was considering was the J&J Ceramic.

[high adjucator]

the flatline has barely anything wrong with it as long as you set it up right, its very very accurate at the ranges.




ps, if you need a sight rail after you put the shroud on, lapco is selling one for about 15 bucks, it extends up one side of the shroud

[Chad51]

Ok I am going barrel shopping tommorow. I am still not to sure which one to get. I am stuck between the Flatline and the Lapco Bigshot! I hear that the Bigshot basically has the best accuracy of any barrel you can buy. Then I know the Flatline has the longest range. I also here that the Flatline is too unpridictable and doesn't have very good accuracy. Does the extra range make a big difference or does the extra accuracy of the Bigshot make a big difference?

Also the other little question I have is can you mount a AMCO IMP Red Dot site on the shroud of the Flatline? I have a feeling I might end up getting the Flatline if I can just put my site on the shroud without anything else to help it stay on.

Anyways I need to know by tommorow if I can get a responds by then! If not I will ask when I go shopping if my site will fit on the shroud. (I like the Flatline alot more with the shroud) If I can't I will go with the Bigshot.

[high adjucator]

no you cannot mount the site wihout the lapco sharkgill mount raill for the m98 but its only 15 bucks

the bigshot is ok at mid ranges, but at long ranges the accuracy seem to get better :confused:


if you keep the shroud on the gun even when its not in use, the fornt site spring will get damaged, so afternyour done using the ugn for the day if you have a flatline, take off the entier barrel and adaptor

[mattsky911]

i have heard from many people that the backspin on the ball from the curved design on the flatline causes many of the balls that hit a soft target, such as a person, from long range bounce off making the long range obsolete. I have no personal experience but my advice is borrow a friends if you can and see if you are satisfied... Just something to look out for.:confused:

[Chad51]

Ok so I went shopping and I ended up getting a J&J Performance. I have read almost all good things about them and the store didn't have the Bigshot so I went with the J&J. Anyways I got home and start to try it in my backyard. I was so excited about having a new barrel that I expected to have fairly good accuracy at a better range then my Tippmann Stock barrel. It didn' seem to shoot any different then my Stock except it was dead silent! After about 25-30 shots I ran out of CO2 so my marker couldn't recock itself. Would this be the reason my marker wasn't preforming any better? I was kinda disapointed that I got a new barrel then I ran out of CO2 after 25-30 shots. I also wont probably be able to get my CO2 filled until next Tuesday. (Posibly longer)

Well what do you think? Is it the barrel is not really any better then my stock? Or is it that it just wouldn't show with low CO2?

[Saiyan_warrior]

Its probably your paint. Try a new batch :)

[Chad51]

Well I did notice I wasn't getting as much pressure as I should have been out of it the balls started to drop off at about 70 feet! I think the problem was my CO2. As far as the paint goes I checked it with my barrel it fit snug but not tight. I will still try a new batch when I get my CO2 filled to see if it makes a difference.

Anyways thanks for all of the help guys!!!!! :D

[high adjucator]

I HAVE PROOF THT THE FLATLINE DOES SHOOT SLOWER !!!!!

velocity equals change in distance x change in time. this means that a flatline barrel has a higher close range velocity than other guns because the ball travels farther and takes longer. Well even with the bernoulli effect (which is the principle of the flatline) the flatline does float to its target, making it travel slower, mening its technical flight velocity lower than all other barrels at the same muzzle velocity


basically, it goes farther, bu the trade off in time is more than the distance, so it has a technical lower velocity

[FlyBoyNZ]

with a flatline, dont you have to keep the gun perfectly upright or the ball will have angled spin instead of a spin of 90 degrees?

[HaZrD Boy 00]

I know how to m,ake homemade flatlines that work just as well as the tippman

[MikeTippyMan]

When I tried spinning a glass of water with ice in it, the ice moved with the water. Is there something wrong with my cup, water, or ice?

[HampsterFist]

I got a question concerning rifled barrels. Aight well we all know that rifling a barrel will increase accuracy in a regular real bullet by stabilizing it as it send the bullet out in a spiraling motion.

My question is this, do rifled barrels make any difference in shot stability for paintball? Cause real bullets are solid, and spiraling them out helps greatly, but paintballs are pretty much liquid filled round shells. Is it better to have a smooth bore, or rifled bore barrel? Please respond with facts and examples, not just trash talk. Thanx

~HampsterFist

[high adjucator]

rifling only works in open bolt guns to stabaliz the ball, in closed bolt guns, it does nothing because a paintball will catch the rifling but it is not enough to do anything special

[OneArmedScissor]

he meant that if you put something like a spoon in a glass of water and spun it...

[high adjucator]

first off you wud spin the glass.

ever notice the ice moves with the cup, then even when i cup stops moving the ice continues

[gato]

Ball going out barrel cause low pressure behind ball. Porting help funnel air to even the pressure behind the ball causing less turb so the ball goes straighter.

[steve davidson]

Those who are poking fun at Pro-Team Products/Armsons advertising catch line - "The Most Accurate Barrel in the World!" are failing to heed their own advice when disparaging it: if, as they claim (following a lot of fairly good information regarding barrel performance and physics, although all of it is not entirely correct), that NO barrel is the 'perfect' barrel for all paints, guns, conditions, etc., it is entirely legitimate for Armson to make its claim of 'the most accurate'.

What that statement implies is that you can not purchase a more accurate barrel - and based on the read of the comments in here - that is an absolutely true statement; you can't get a more accurate barrel than an Armson.

Equally accurate? Perhaps. More? Nope.

Just thought you guys ought to give that a little thought.

[high adjucator]

it IS possible for a barrel to have less acuraccy. the finsh is insuperior, the ball dont fit as well as well as a few other factors (slickness of the material). the only thing the armson barrel can deliver is more range. and that is a misleading factor as well. the only way a shot can have more accuracy is if it has a higher trajectory (up to 45degress) or it has a spin. (bernoulli's or magnus effect)

and it is possible to have a breel that IS or SEEMS TO BE more accurate. If the barrel is made better, then it will be more accurate. plain and simple. and a longer barrel gives the effect of better accuracy beacuse the barrel length helps you line up your shots better.


pardon my grammatical errors.

[HampsterFist]

well I wouldn't exactly say the longer the barrel the greater the length. For example, I've seen peeps with 16 to 21 inch barrels get horrid range... there is such a thing as "too long" since after a certain length the ball will cease acceleration and simply begin to slow down. The longest barrel I would recomend would be a 14" since lengthy barrels make the gun begin to handle poorly in CQB situations. But it all depends on you really, there are many barrel types and brands out there, you got spiral rifled, parrarel rifled, angled (flatline), smooth bore, each has different characteristics. My advice is simply choose your barrel according to your style, get used to it, and just make sure you can hit what you aim at. Thats all I have to say.

[steve davidson]

Adjudicator wrote: "it IS possible for a barrel to have less acuraccy. the finsh is insuperior, the ball dont fit as well as well as a few other factors (slickness of the material). the only thing the armson barrel can deliver is more range. and that is a misleading factor as well. the only way a shot can have more accuracy is if it has a higher trajectory (up to 45degress) or it has a spin. (bernoulli's or magnus effect)

and it is possible to have a breel that IS or SEEMS TO BE more accurate. If the barrel is made better, then it will be more accurate. plain and simple. and a longer barrel gives the effect of better accuracy beacuse the barrel length helps you line up your shots better. "

And I have no idea what you are tyring to say.

Perhaps you need to take a look at an armson barrel before commenting: "insuperior' finish? I suppose that you meant to say 'not a good finish'. if that is the case, I beg to differ; those barrels have among the best finish in the industry.

'Ball don't fit well'? How about trying to get some decent paint?

Longer barrels do not give you better range or accuracy; too long and they negatively affect performance and gas efficiency and increase the chance for a ball break.

If you are among those who believe that the spiral rifling imparts spin to the ball, again, you are mistaken; the rifling is there to enhance the seal behind the ball, giving greater consistancy and efficiency shot per shot.

The only real thing that taking advantage of the bernoulli effect does for you is rob your ball of energy by the time it gets to target; it may float, but it lands like a feather. I'll take those kinds of bouncers all day...

Steve

[high adjucator]

i knew the bernoulli effect makes it go slower!

i didnt say the armson barrel hatta insuperior finsih!
i said some barrels do. like the truflight.

what if you CANT get better paint???

the rifling does impart a spin on the ball. not muich but still a spin.
the rifling makes no idfference in shot to shot conistency. how does that matter?


i dint say longetr barrel are more accurate! from my opinion theyre worse. they just SEEM to be see?

[high adjucator]

and p.s i own a armson proseries barrel for my m98.

it is my second mst accurate barrel next to the teardrop when firing diablo (i hate that crap) blaze

[Bunker_King]

I just want to thank Saiyan Warrior and High adjuctator for their articles. I was getting so sick of all these cocker owners saying "my gun has better range, it is more accurate, blah blah blah". Bunch of BS if you ask me. Same velocity, same paint, same barrel=same range. How could autococker A be more accurate than gun B if they are both using say a freak w/ the same insert and same exact paintball. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE!

[PartsMart]

Saiyans post was all truth, I just dont think yall are smart enough to understand physics. If there was no porting the low pressure behind the ball would cause a suction on the back of the ball, almost pulling it backwards. So not only does porting let air out, but it lets it in to even out the pressure. I agree with him 100%. I'm also wondering, what barrel has the slickest internals?

[Saiyan_warrior]

No porting is good for low pressure. For example, take the aka javelin barrel, it has no porting at all yet it is extremely good for low pressure, but extremely loud.

[mjkocker]

I belive the length of the barrel reguarless of porting or no porting wont improve range but it will improve accuracy. Simply look at real guns or rifles especailly the longer the barrel the better groupings you get. Take this to paintball imagine you have two boomsticks one that is 10" and one that is 18" why will one be more accurate then the other provided they are identical and they are no manufacturing defects. As long as they are identically straight the ball is guided down a straight path for longer so the ball has less of a chance to go off course. Well if you dont belive me try this. Take the barrel off your gun and shoot it then put it back on and shoot it if the ball is not guided it will not go straight.Yes i do know that the ball has no time to excelerate hence the theory works with smaller accelaration distances or (shorter barrel distances). Another way to test my theory which i have done is shoot a 6" barrel (shortest i could find) then the same barrel but at the other extreme 18" and test the accuracy at the same velocity. Yes you will have to crank up the pressure higher for the 18" but velocity is measured at the end of the barrel. You will definatly notice the longer barrel is more accurate and silent. It wont be a huge differnce but it will be noticable. The disadvantage of course is higher pressure so perhaps more ball breaks and your gun will eat more air also the obvious a longer barrel gets in your way more. Well i guarntee my theory works before you try to argue that i am wrong for whatever reason i ask you to go try my test with the 6 and 18" barrels.

mjkocker@attbi.com

P.S. these tests were done with a very nice cocker $2000 so lower end guns may not notice as much as a performance differnce.

I have played for 8 years i am on a amateur level A team im keeping anonomys for obvious reasons.

I own a custom cocker with 2 many things to list and a drak angel

HAHA everyone is my hooker

[high adjucator]

haha first actualy think about what your saying b4 u say it ok?

now why would there be a suction behind the paintball?? there is about 400psi of pressure shooting it out the barrel!!!!

and a longer barrel will not yiled better accuracy. you ever noticed that any un with a brrel over 14 inches thats not a shotgun is rifled? and any smooothbore barrel will give less accuracy to a real gun...

a 6 inch barrel gets lets accuracy bcuz the air doesnt have enuff time to acelarate (i knwo i spelled it wrog) and the *pop* is MUCH greater. that pop wobbles the ball. see? try using a heavily ported 12 inch then using a lightly ported 18 inch. you WILL get better accuracy with the 12

small amounts or porting does help low pressure by letting air pressure lessen even more.

oh yeah.. and no barrel can improve range. only a heavier ball can do that

[SnapDragon]

Okay, I'm new to the board as of today. "Hello!" everyone!

I own an 18" Boom Stick; still unused. Saigon, would you then, based on all written about velocity, weight, etc., etc. that I have 6 inches of barrel robbing my balls of distance? Or, does that extra length have some play/benefit in accuracy? Eats more CO2?

I can still return my barrel for another (read: shorter) length. This is what has been eating at me since I came home with it last Friday and have yet to shoot anything through it.

I don't lob mass amounts of paint down range. I am more interested in distance with better accuracy.

If a ball only accelerates 8-12 inches, then is a 12-14 inch barrel the maximum anyone should ever consider? Why sell them them? Ugh! Decisions Decisions Decisions.

This is like walking down the darn cereal isle in a grocery store. So much to choose from.



Royally confused as to go shorter or not,
SnapDragon

[high adjucator]

haha yeah anything over a 12-14 inch is un necesary,
id trade it in if i were you. and no barrel EVER can give you more distance.
and they sell longer barrels because uneducated peopel buy them, or because it lok cool or w/e.


and that extra length needs to be compensatd for because it takes more air to get the ball down the barrel.

[SnapDragon]

The lengthy explanation at the beginning of this post makes sense. Yet, while that may be so, there ARE definite differences in the physics of particular barrel's which make them preferred as to their accuracy and/or range (flatter trajectory). Some barrels do shoot farther and/or others are more accurate.
-------------------------------------------
I've really enjoyed reading this post. I've certainly learned a lot from it; and as one of my first impressions of this forum - will be returning. Thank you.
-------------------------------------------


Yes, it does look like I will be exchanging my 18" Boom Stick in for a shorter one (another Boom? I don't know. Probably.). Two things though...

1. If longer barrels in rifles equate to more accuracy, then how is that lost concerning markers? Leaving rifling out of it, length plays a role. There are definate facts which can be applied to purchasing a barrel. The initial reading of velocity, weight, and so forth left me with the impression that all barrels are equal - but we know that, that is not so.

2.
- Tippman 98 Customs ship with an 8.5" barrel which has porting at 4 1/2 inches.
- My ' now temporary' Boom Stick is a whopping 18" with porting at 9.5". Another factor: the barrel widens slightly at about 7 inches.

When compared side by side, the Boom Stick did shoot better; ie. more accurate and with a flatter trajectory to reach the same distance as the stock Tippmann.

If paintballs accelerate to maximum speed within the first 8 to 12 inches of a barrel - then 12 inches of barrel should be truly available to provide this to occur. Factory Tippmann barrels rob us of important and necessary barrel length for a lighter marker with a shorter length and marketable appearance. This, as with any other marker, leaves room for 3rd party vendors to accessorize their product with better upgrades. Like software, it's a marketing round-robin where dependability on each other breeds business security.

So, the difference from where Tippmann stock barrels begin porting to where Boom Sticks widen their barrel appears to be where the added push happens; allowing pressure more time to affect velocity.


Hmmm.....
Is it going to be a 12" or 14" tomorrow? I still remain unsure at this point. I may go with a 14" which gives me 4" less to maneuver with, yet provides porting to quiet the pop. I need to check into it more thoroughly though. By going with a shorter barrel I don't want to lose those initial 7" tight inches like on the 18" Boom Stick. They are important.

[july_favre]

Length doesnt matter in 2 piece barrels like the boomstick. Only the first stage is touching the ball so if it was just the back or if you add a 20" tip it will shoot the same. The only thing the extra length will affect is how quite it is.
The 2 piece designs are a little more accurate according to Tom Kayes, but they loose a little bit of shots per fill from a one piece barrel. If you put a one piece barrel on there with minal porting you will see an increase of velocity. Ive been messing with different barrel lengths and with the CP 12" 1 piece barrel I get about 20 FPS over the CP 2 pice barrel.

[bob dole]

All i can say is, I'm happy the accuracy/range issue has been (sorta) laid to rest! Thanks to everyone for this article, i wish every paintball player could read it so people would stop making claims about range/accuracy that just are not true.

[SnapDragon]

So, which gun shoots better again? *joke*



Thanks!
I dropped down and settled with a 14" Boom Stick.



Signed,
The new daddy - SnapDragon
My boy - Conner Elliot (http://www.geocities.com/hlbinnc/baby.html):D

[impy-bushy]

lol

u could have a gun that shoots the straightest ever and still suck at paintball, accuracy and distance aint everything u gotta have skill!:eyes: :laugh:

[SnapDragon]

Ah, yes - skill. I do suppose that does come in handy when slithering through the underbrush. I think I'll do okay out there. *grin*





SnapDragon

http://home.mindspring.com/~jtockert/pics/sf_sm.gif

[PartsMart]

ok high adjucator looks like u never passed physics....When the ball moves foward very quickly air must fill in the area it was just in....All matter wanting to form an equiliberium of pressure...So the paintball has a little pull behind it, but since air can get through the feed this pull is normally not huge. You can do this by sticking a straw in water, putting ur thumb over the top and pulling up..... So when a barrel is vented it allows for air to be pulled from the outside in so there is less area needing to be filled therefore less suction

[HampsterFist]

Well time for me to throw in my 2 cents.

Well yea it would be true that if an object is moving at a rapid speed it would leave a slight void of air behind it.... but thats only true of the object is moving on its own momentum. However in paintball when in regaurds to paintballs moving out of you're barrel it is a bit different. A paintball is propelled forward by expanding gas escaping out of your barrel pushing the paintball itself forward. In a case such as this the object moving at a rapid speed does not leave a void behind it since its being pushed by air. In this case the ports on your barrel (those lil holes used to vent you're barrel) are not there to allow air to get in and fill the void behind your paintball, they are there to allow gas to escape out of them so that it won't be so harsh, and loud at the end of you're barrel. Yea this may probobly slightly affect you're shot velocity since the air or expanding gas (the balls propelant) is escaping out of your ports and lessening the ball's propelant, but no where enough to be noticable in play. This is the reason why ported barrels are not as loud as non-ported barrels, the more ports the more chance for gas to escape through them rather then out the end of the barrel, which ultimately makes the balls ejection less harsh, and less audiable, at a very miniscule sacriface of a few FPS. But again, not enough to be noticed in play.

Again... all that matters is that you can hit what you aim at. To be honest I doubt we all really care too much about the actual physics involved, so long as we can hit what we aim at. A barrel is a barrel, a gun is a gun, and a hit is a hit.

[july_favre]

With lower pressure guns, porting will make a large difference, I dont know about high pressured guns though. With a 2 piece with 5" of acceleration compared to a 1 piece with little porting will show a big difference. Im think a 1 piece with porting after 5 inches would have even less FPS than the 2 piece since the remaining 7" or so is slowing the ball down, thats just my theory though. I think I said before my cp 2 piece gets around 20 fps less than my cp 12" of the same bore size.

[Pbgunwhore]

Hopefully my post can help some peeps...

Factors that make barrels more or less accurate are as followed.
Honing
Finish
Length
Consistancy(as in , is the barrel the same size all the way through
BORE SIZE(big one)

Honing is one way the metal is smooth, honing and finish can be tired together, a good finish is smooth and clean, like most aftermarker barrels, ive always thought DYE had the best finishes along with J&J and smartparts.
I will compare these finishes under a microscope at some point and reveal the results so we can crown a company as the undesputed best finish.
You need a good finish and good honing so the ball and gas can travel undisturbed down the barrel, the ball should be able to notice anything wrong about the inside of the barrel.

Length is a big issue, as anything above 12 inch WILL slow the ball down as the post above stated, it may not hurt accuracy, but it CANT help it, and it will decrease the FPS from a 12" even if its only 1 or 2 feet a sec.
Consistancy is perfect on all good aftermarker barrels(i would hope) so that isnt a problem...

Bore size will probably be the biggest factor effecting accuracy in barrels today, people say to "just grab a freak" but that will not fix the problems all the time. Paint varies alot, paint advertsing a 689 bore size will not work "Perfect" with a 689 insert, why? because some balls will be 688,687,690,691 paintball manufacturing is no wheres near perfect nor will it be for along time. Also the 2nd part of the freak is a set bore size alot larger and the paintball will use its already obtained accuracy from the 4/5 inch insert to gain some speed in the larger speed chamber, the resistance from the barrel in this part is almost none existant, all its doing is getting pushed by the gas pretty much anyway, now the reason i never liked smartparts spiral porting is because it distributes uneven pressure on the ball, gas escapes from each hole, now some gas on one side will escape before gas on the other side will and visa versa, this will create a small spin on the ball and can throw it off a bit, usally not noticable but sometimes i can notice it on my freak... but it shoots awesome so i wont dis on it anymore.
Uselly more expensive barrels will have a smaller bore size, uselly more expensive paint will have a smaller bore size, uselly cheaper barrels have a bigger bore size, uselly cheaper paint has a bigger bore size.

the xcel, ceramic, teardrop and bigshot will shoot close to if not just as well as my boomstick or freak shooting normal paint like blaze or midnight, but my boomstick will rock your world shooting anarchy upheavel or marbalizer because its a smaller bore paint and so is my barrel..

And another reason boomsticks or all americans and cost so much is because they do use alot higher quality finishes, material and have better machining, also they are 2 piece barrels which are better.

I do own many barrels for many guns including, J&J ceramics, freaks, boomies, xcels, dye ss's, all americans, teardrops and one bigshot, the quality of finish goes up as the price goes up..

[high adjucator]

2 piece barrels are not better unless they are like the boomstick which is welded together.
the reason being is the air escapes thru the threading and if the front half is not matched up perfectly can cause ball distorion.

the smartparts porting relaeses air on both sides of the ball evenly but it spins because the porting spins in one direction and the ball spins in the direction air is being released.

i did a test yesterday and my and all of my friends were able o shoot a 4 inch tree 150 feet away with my xcel and proball.
i find this akward because the proball bore is much to big for the excel but i get better velocity and accuracy than if i use the blaze paint that it fits. (ps this was done with a cocker)


i have a word about the "eleptical honing" of a palmers barrel. if the bore goes from tight to loose, doesnt that leave room for the ball to spin? also that means that the excess air escapes from the back of the ball to goto the loose section creating more resistance than already made.

[sp-piranha]

so the most accurate setup would to by a barrel with a 689. bore and 12" legth and use marbs 688. bore and heavy and run you gun at 280 fps.

[high adjucator]

the bore size makes no difference as long asyour paint fits it.. duh! running your gun at about 270-280 is perfect for fps

[Brandon85c]

Ok this thread has prolly been one of the most helpful ones I’ve seen and I thank all of those people who contributed to it

I’m intending on getting the Freak System (full) now I only have two questions

1. All American or Freak barrel ?
2. What length?

[mitchellrg]

OK, I tend to read alot then try what I read to insure it is accurate. Now the guy that started this thread is accurate for the most part. However, in my field of expertise (electronics) we have a saying when we cant explain something. We say its FM(friggin magic). So call it what you will but I have been pinned down by Flat Lines at a range that I could not shoot back because I could not range and his paint was breaking fine on contact. I own a Armson Stealth (with rifleing) and it is extremly accurate. All barrels are not created equal. Some barrels (cheap usually) have fluctuations in the barrel. What I mean is that the barrel will measure .681 to 686 inside the tube. The more perfect the barrel the more accurate it will be. All paint IS NOT CREATED EQUAL for the same reason barrels are not equal. The better paints are more consistant in there size and roundness. He is right in the fact that a heavier ball will travel farther and not much else, not including the Flat Line, will change that. After all, weather you have a closed bolt, blow back or the next wonderful thing to come out, a ball traveling at 280fps 3 inches after it leaves your barrel is traveling 280fps and it will fly as far as the law of physics will allow it. The key thing to remember is that you have to match your paint to your barrel. If you buy a Lapco you cant go wrong. They are some of the most perfect barrels(varriation in size) as you can get. Here is the test to insure your barrel is matched to the paint you are using. Use your barrel like a blow gun. If you cant blow the ball out the barrel the either your barrle is to small or your paint is to big. If your paint just slide though the barrel then the opposite is true. It should be just like a blow gun. With my Armson Stealth and PMI Premium I can shoot a ball a good 60ft. In footbal terms 20 Yards. I offer this to everyone. Lapco, Armson, PMI, and TASO all make at least 1 exellent barrel and ther are very cost effective. Here is what you have to do. When you are at the paint field and you see somebody with a barrel the you can use, ask to do so. Ask them what kind of paint they are using and just ask questions.

[PiranhaPunk342]

If I crank my velocity all the way up shoot a ball (and it dosent break) at like 380fps (not sure) The flight of the paintball will move like a knuckle ball in baseball. Dont say I was using bad paint because at 280 it was right on target.
Has anybody ever noticed that when you crank it up it has an irregular flight path?

[high adjucator]

thats cus theres more wind resistance on the sea casuing it to spin :)

[mitchellrg]

The knuckle Ball effect is the same as in baseball. Only differance is that a hard ball will do this at much lower speeds because it has a larger surface area than a paintball. The effect is caused by a paintball not spinning. The air will move differently over the surface do to imperfections on the ball and minor changes in the air itself (air pressure, temperature, humidity, wind). It is said that the best accuracy for paintball is around 280 due to the effect of the Kuckle Ball. Many test have been done on spinning the ball to improve accuracy and all have differant results. The majority opinion is that spinning the ball doesnt help at all. I own an Armson Stealth barrel, the only barrel with true rifleing. It is one of the most accurate barrels Ive ever shot. I hope this helps ya.

[WGP Nemesis]

I'm very new to paintballing so correct me if I'm wrong.

With that glass and water thing. Wouldn't it spin more because the paint inside would start spinning causing the shell to continually spinning. You could do this by spinning a raw egg. Is this right, or would the paint inside not start spinning?

[mitchellrg]

No it will not spin more. The theory behind it is that there is friction created once the shell starts spinning. However, if the fill is a very thick fill then in theory, the shell and the paint will spin. The problem with using a glass of water is that water is... well ..... a very "thin liquid" for lack of knowing a better term. A better comparison would be to take hot pudding or mush in a glass or bowl and spin it. It will of coarse spin because it is a very thick liquid. The same goes for paint. Some paint fills are very thin and some are very thick. No matter what anbody says, you can spin a paintball. If you doubt this, ask anybody who owns a flatline that was set up correctly. The only question is, does spining the ball in a clock-wise motion help stabalize the ball. The flatline put a hefty backspin on the ball which creates a higher pressure on the bottom of the ball and lower pressure on the top of the ball, in effect, making it a wing. The down side to this is that it creates more friction while traveling through the air so it looses FPS more rappidly than a normal flying piantball. Thuss it might not break when you start shooting at a target that is 100ft + away from you even though you can range it. (which is dumb anyways, dont shoot till you see the whites of there eyes) The theory goes for spinning a ball in a clock-wise (counter-clockwise) motion, that you evenly distribute the effects of the poor surface of the paint ball. By doing this you do not allow any one defect in the surface of the ball to coerse the flight of the ball. I hope this helps ya.

[Crash Danger]

hmmm... interesting :)

my barrel has like these little "ridges" that run lenghtwise down the barrel. They're not very deep, and they're smoothed down alot. But you can see them if you put the barrel up to light and you can feel them slightly with your finger. They're all equal distances from each other so it's a "consistent" barrel surface... They might have been made when the barrel was being manufactured or something...

My question is, will this affect my accuracy? Since the lines run perfectly straight lengthwise the ball shouldn't be slowed down by this at all...

[mitchellrg]

It sounds like they are there to allow an evenly distibuted amount of blow by on the ball. Either that or its just a cheap barrel and you need to fork out the $$$ for a good one. What kind of barrel is it?

[Crash Danger]

bought it for 30 bucks on eBay. I don't even know what brand it is, it was advertized as a Smart Parts barrel, but it doesn't look like any products of theirs... :|

I haven't used it in action yet so I dunno how it really performs...

[mitchellrg]

$30 for a barrel aint too bad. Just remember to match the barrel with the right size paint before you try it out. If you end up not likeing it, go for an Armson Stealth or a Lapco Bigshot. There are many good barrels on the market, just ask to shoot with one when you see sombody with the barrel you like. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ...... MAKE SURE YOUR PAINTS FITS YOUR BARREL. http://paintballbarrels.com/ These guys have got great prices and free shipping.

[evol]

:peace::crazy:wow lots of opinions.
i have two questions to sum up this thread
1)what is the best qualities to look for in a barrel for a low pressure gun?
2) are certain barrels better suited for open bolt guns? closed bolts guns? and if so which barrel for what bolt system?

well i guess that's kinda four thanks for any help:crazy:

[mitchellrg]

It is believed for for most markers it only takes 4 inches of barrel to achieve 300fps. However, in the colder weather it could take up to 8 inches to get to 300fps. Therefore, when looking for a barrel, find one with at least 6-8 inches of effective barrel. That is before the porting starts. After porting you will get no acceleration on your ball unless you are useing an extreme amount of air. The porting is there for two reasons. 1 is to allow air to escape so you dont get a ton of blow by on the ball. 2 to quiet your shot. Probably the biggest factor in choosing a barrel is personal prefrance. Some barrels do perform better than others and it not always the big $$$ ones. After 14 inches any barrel is completly usless and in your way uless it helps you aim for some reason. If it does then I say practice more. Just remember, a ball leaving your barrel at 300fps is going to travel just as far as any other ball leaving any other barrel or marker at 300fps not including the Flat Line. The best barrel on the market when not matched up with the proper paint will get you poor results. Match your paint to your barrel. Temperature and humidity will effect all balls, so a ball that work awsome for you in the cold might be terrible in the heat in the same barrel. Expermint and learn.

[SaVaC]

Oh... and i just want to say with REAL guns The lengnth of the barrel only effects the amount of rifleing the bullet receves, thus making the bullet spin more in longer gun barrels. (kinda simple idea) And a bullet that spins longer travels straighter than one that spins less. (only becouse it's a solid mass not a liquid filled shell) Ex: Take a .22 Pistol vs a .22 rifle... Which will be more accurate when you clamp them to a bench... ? humm... Now as for range, longer barrels only provide more acceleration for the bullet, thats why a rifle will shoot further than a pistol. And gun barrels have alot more pressure behind them (due to the small explosion you caused when you pulled the trigger) thats why they tend have long barrels.
Oh and also your not shooting .68 cal bullets at things... although it would be fun to see something explode if you could :crazy:

[Streaks]

Ok, with a bullet. The length of the barrel does not determine the ammount of spin on the bullet down range. The angle of the rifling is what does this. You'll hear rifling measured in "number of turns" this is to say, that one land or grove, will make one full revolution for a given length of barrel. Common measurements would be like, one turn in 20 inches. So, for every 20 inches the bullet travels as it flies, it will rotate once. Grant it, it will slow as air friction slows it down a bit, but the ammount of barrel it's traveled down doesn't do any more but help it get farther by allowing the gas to expand further.

There is a critical point in any caliber/gunpowder charge, were the bullet will stop to accellerate. For example, the mentioned .22 rimfire (Long Rifle) will stop to accellerate at about 20" of barrel length if my memory serves. This is point is known as "burn out" as the gas stops expanding behind the round, and now the friction of the barrel's bore slows the projectile down.

Pistols vs rifles? Well, you really can't compair them. The rifle has more barrel length and is typically heavier (weight/mass=stability=more accuracy) and, the same caliber of projectile will be more accurate from the rifle for a NUMBER of reasons. Mostly the length of the barrel and the fact that a rifle is typically fired with at least three contact points to your body (hand, hand, shoulder) vs only two for a pistol. The extra barrel length adds to it's velocity, true, but more importantly, it helps to keep the projectile stable, longer and this added to the extra velocity attained by the length of the barrel maximising the expanding gas, leads to the rifle being more accurate. Also, a pistol has a MUCH shorter barrel and this means that once the projectile hits the crown/muzzle, there is a huge gout of gas that rushes past the projectile as it exits were with the rifle, this is far less as it's mostly been burnt up by then.

Also, a sphere isn't the worst projectile around. During our (USA) history, there were guys with what came to be known as "squirrel" guns. These were muzzle loaded weapons that shot lead round balls. It's well known that a man who was practiced with one could drill a pie plate at 300 YARDS with no problem, consistantly.

The Lapco series of barrel are my personal favorite because they make use of the ports correctly. Ever see a real weapon with ports down half it's length? How about a muzzle break that is half the length of the barrel? No? Ever see one that has a bunch of tight ports right near the muzzle? Oh ya huh. The reason is that, when you put all the ports near the muzzle (note, drilled right through the barrel, not a "cage" or muzzle break, but there is still more barrel, with rifling and an air tight seal past the ports), the projectile will pass the ports, then have enough barrel length left so that, the time it takes the pressure zone at the ports, to equalize the pressure required to push the ball (shooting a projectile is a matter of equalizing the pressure of two bodies of gas, the expanding gas is trying to become equal pressure with the atmosphere, hence, it's expanding. The projectile offers the path of least resistance and hence, gets pushed). So, there's a little bit of barrel length just past the ports. This allows the ports to function propperly without slowing down the projectile but while still bleeding off enough air pressure behind the ball as to not offer a big gout of turbulance to expand past the round as it exits the muzzle. It's also why the Lapco series is one of the most accurate (THE most IMO) barrel out there.


Alright, I've gone on long enough. I have to get back to work.





Streaks

[mquinn96]

It has been said before (in articles), but is worth repeating. The three main things to look for in a barrel are: Size (bore size) Strait, and Smooth. That means if barrel A and B are sized the same, are strait (which virtualy every barrel today is, including stock barrels) and have the same internal finish, they will perform about the same. One thing not mentioned yet are stepped bores. The main reason I've seen for stepped bores are
1. It allows a longer barrel without adding friction to the ball. Why does a long barrel seem more accurate? Because if you use the tip of the barrel to aim (which most people do) the longer barrel barrels give a finer `"resolution" If you move the tip of a 10" barrel a percieved 1" higher, you are moving the angle of you gun a certain amount. Now you move the tip of a 15" barrel that same percieved 1" and you've moved the angle 33% less. THis helps you keep your gun aimed properly.
2. The wider diameter keep the balls from pushing up into the porting as it passes by. This has been known to shred paint.
3. When making a long barrel out of a durable material like stainless you can gain a lot of wieght savings by making the tip out of aluminum. Same goes for titanium, but that is a cost savings thing.

[Streaks]

The only problem I have with that is that ports don't cause ball breaks. Otherwise the teardrop and progressive and every Lapco barrel would shred paint.

The smart parts barrels that have the two piece construction (and not just theirs btw but any barrel that has a larger ID "tip"), are using a muzzle break. Plain and simple. Once the ball hits the tip it's in free fall and the gas is shooting _past_ it as well as being deflected to the sides, through the ports.

Everything else I totally agree with :D










Streaks

[mquinn96]

True,
most one piece barrels with ports do not shred paint. However, there are certain circumstances that will cause the ball to break due to a port.
The ball is much larger than the bore (ie, .689 ball into a .685 bore)
*and* The ports are cut after the bore is formed (honed or otherwise). Those ports tend to be bigger because a deburring tool needs to fit inside of them. The larger ports have a greater tendency to break paint.
I've spoken to other barrel makers who have encountered this problem and I've also seen it on some stock barrels.
Most barrel makers have overcome this without the need to open up the tip, but it is still something to be kept in mind when porting a barrel.

[mitchellrg]

I shoot a .685 CP barrel on my Mag and dont shoot any other paint besides PMI Premium (.689) and would be happy to show you all that not only do I NEVER break paint. I wil also compare accuracy to any marker/barrel/paint combo out there. Rock on

[mquinn96]

I'm not trying to say that every one piece barrel shreds paint. 99% don't and that is because they have ways to solve that problem. I used to shoot a CP 12" aluminum so I know where you are coming from.

[Killer15]

well the 1st thing id like to say is i dont see how people say so and so barrel brakes more paint...that is so stupid, people break paint because of 1. the paint sux 2. the barrel to paint bore match is too tight 3.you have sumthin in ur barrel causeing the ball to break 4. more than 1 paintball loads

the only time i EVER break paint is when i accidently shortstroke, and rarely ever does the ball break even though 2 paintballs have loaded. Why you ask?...simple, because my gun is running 225psi (LP) and instead of both braking, they both shoot out.....wut i recomend to all of you is try to get a good LP gun or stick with good paint, and for god sake maintain your guns, dont treat them like dirt

but IMO i love the FREAK system w/the all american front, and my 14" seems to be fine, so if ur going to get a barrel i recomend that one...paint to bore match of course is the most important thing in accuracy.....and use NITRO, co2 SUX! lol:laugh: :Killer15:<<<never ever using co2 again!:laugh: :laugh: fiber wrapped nitro tank baby all the way....save up ur money its well worth it

[zeroImpulse]

for all you tippmann owners don't use a stock or flatline. both of them have a very ruff inside which is one reason why its bad the other is because the bore is so big. I just bought a new impulse and i noticed the inside of the stock progresive barrel is uneven because at the tip of the barrel it goes from big to small to big. wouldn't this be bad because if you use a big size ball wont the ball lose alot of propulsion because its being squeezed through the small area where all the porting is wouldn't all the air escape the barrel. The only way you can probaly chop a ball isyou shoot fast and the ball hasnt fully entered the chamber and can be chop also you could have shot 2 balls at once. I have been told that the longer the barrel the better he accuracy at a certain range it will not change the range Like he told me a longer barrel like a 18in will be more accurate if your shooting someone 100ft away and a 10in wont be as accurate. damn i wish there was an answer that everyone knows is true.

[Killer15]

14" is the way to go hands down....longer barrel wont give u better accuracy or distance....its all about the paint to barrel bore match....but i wouldnt go shorter then 14" unless im on the sup air

[Dynasty_PB]

Originally posted by Killer15
14" is the way to go hands down....longer barrel wont give u better accuracy or distance....its all about the paint to barrel bore match....but i wouldnt go shorter then 14" unless im on the sup air

acutaly for super air u want a longer barrel like a 16

peace.love.unity

[mitchellrg]

Well, you have fun with your long barrel. Ill stick with my 10 inch, after all, it only takes 6-8 inches for your ball to reach 300pfs so anything after that is a waste of air. The only time that might not be true is when it is realy cold. If your shooting a 16" barrel then you are using extra air to push that ball the extra 6-8 inches. Not only that but after the porting stops the ball stop accelerating. So think about it, how fast is the ball moving when it reaches your ports, it slows down from there to 300pfs(or whatever your shooting).

[Streaks]

The problem with the longer barrels is that I've yet to find one that is a true 16" barrel. Most are only 8" barrels with 8" muzzle breaks (which do NOT contact the ball) for the ports.

Also, it depends as to wether your using low pressure or not. A standard/high pressure marker only needs the 6-8" of accelleration while a lower pressure marker makes use of a longer, unported barrel (the Lapco series or AKA Javalin).

And, paint to barrel match is very important to accuracy. Tho, with a longer unported section added, it allows the ball to be stablized for longer which, in theory at least, would lead to a better degree of accuracy, might be like a tenth of an inch or something but it's still there :D

I've often wondered if barrel harmonics has any affect on paintballs ;)





Streaks

[Dynasty_PB]

Originally posted by mitchellrg
Well, you have fun with your long barrel. Ill stick with my 10 inch, after all, it only takes 6-8 inches for your ball to reach 300pfs so anything after that is a waste of air. The only time that might not be true is when it is realy cold. If your shooting a 16" barrel then you are using extra air to push that ball the extra 6-8 inches. Not only that but after the porting stops the ball stop accelerating. So think about it, how fast is the ball moving when it reaches your ports, it slows down from there to 300pfs(or whatever your shooting).

Have you ever played an air field before?

peace.love.unity

[VeNoM]

If the bunkers are not blown up a lot, you can move and see around the bunker with the barrel, if they are pumped up(like to the max) UA bunkers, it doesn't help much... I personally am most comfortable with a 12" barrel, I feel its just the right size, but I haven't had the chance to play with a 16" barrel... EVERYTHING in Paintball is personal preference, there may be slight differences, but people prefer different things and set ups... not to mention barrel lengths...

[gatotsu]

hmm velocity over 280 can lower the accuracy... u sure about that?

wouldnt velocity actually make the ball more accuracte? the velocity and air around the ball will keep the ball going at a constant speed until it hits a target.. so wouldnt a 290-295 vel over 275-280 vel when it comes to accuracy?

[gatotsu]

ok i asked a physics expert..

they said that BOTH are true


the higher velocity would give it a stronger push meaning it would be more accuracte than a lower velocity

but other times the higher velocity can also cause a curve more than a lower because of the friction between the air surrounding the ball and the environment

they said that the accuracy would be controlled by the velocity and aerodynamics

also.. they said "the conical shape is ideal cause it minimizes air turbulance in front of the object therefore the paintball will most likely be more accuracte at a higher velocity setting"

[gatotsu]

also they told me..

a longer barrel would not decrease the velocity or accuracy of the ball :P

heres what they said.. "actually a grooved barrel would make it more accurate, like throwing a football, the ball comes out spinning" and "a longer barrel helps but not that much"

[mitchellrg]

yes Ive played on sup-air and love it. About the "A longer barrel does not decrease velocity" Think about it. If you were to have a 25 inch barrel, it will take more air to push it all the way out the barrel. So for this to happen there are two way to achieve it. High pressure gun will push a ton of air right away so this ball will be traveling much faster than 300fps while at the middle of the barrel to make up for the loss of velocity do to the resistance of the length of the barrel. It will exit the barrel at 300fps but you are using way more air to achieve this. A low pressure gun will release air slower giving a push on the ball all the way down the barrel using less air than the high pressure version. However it will have to push the ball for a longer period of time with a long barrel thus waisting air. Ok, I understand that a 25 inch barrel is unrealistic but it still gets the point out. A high pressure gun only needs 6-8 inches to achieve 300fps while a low pressure will need 10-12 inches. Now does a longer barrel give any better accuracy? No, unless your comparing a 2 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel. The only thing a longer barrel can do for you is help you aim. Thats it. If you doubt this just try for yourself differant type of barrels with differant lengths. When it comes right down to it a 10 inch barrel will be just as accurate as any other barrel as long as the barrel and paint match.

[Dynasty_PB]

Originally posted by mitchellrg
yes Ive played on sup-air and love it. About the "A longer barrel does not decrease velocity" Think about it. If you were to have a 25 inch barrel, it will take more air to push it all the way out the barrel. So for this to happen there are two way to achieve it. High pressure gun will push a ton of air right away so this ball will be traveling much faster than 300fps while at the middle of the barrel to make up for the loss of velocity do to the resistance of the length of the barrel. It will exit the barrel at 300fps but you are using way more air to achieve this. A low pressure gun will release air slower giving a push on the ball all the way down the barrel using less air than the high pressure version. However it will have to push the ball for a longer period of time with a long barrel thus waisting air. Ok, I understand that a 25 inch barrel is unrealistic but it still gets the point out. A high pressure gun only needs 6-8 inches to achieve 300fps while a low pressure will need 10-12 inches. Now does a longer barrel give any better accuracy? No, unless your comparing a 2 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel. The only thing a longer barrel can do for you is help you aim. Thats it. If you doubt this just try for yourself differant type of barrels with differant lengths. When it comes right down to it a 10 inch barrel will be just as accurate as any other barrel as long as the barrel and paint match.

It has nothing to do with acuracy, it has to do with using your barrel to push the bunker in ;) GO to the cup or Ac and when teams play air bunkers they switch to bigger ones, i know Dynasty does, they are the ones that shopwed me how to play like that.

peace.love.unity

[mitchellrg]

Thats a great tactic. I never thought of that. I could see a definate advantage with a longer barrel in that situation. I dont think Ill change my play but I do like that idea.

[tippmann dude]

I still think a longer barrel is more accurate becouse my gun had a 14"true flite barrel and my friend had a 16"true flite barrel and his was more accurate an we both had tippmann 98 and was using the same kind of paint.

[EchoX]

At the beginning of this thread, there was a post saying that porting doesn't help because the air propelling the ball does not overtake it and that's the reason why there was no pull of air that went through the smoke. But doesn't that only work if conditions are perfect? U'd have to have a very perfect paint to barrel match in order for air not to escape around the ball. If there was a little gap between the inside of the barrel and the ball, then wouldn't the air overtake the ball via the gap? The air's velocity is already faster than the ball since it has to propel it. If there was a bit of a gap, wouldn't some go after it since the initial speed of the ball is 0 while the initial speed of the air is already near maximum? I didn't read the whole post, so this might've been answered already, but doesn't that sound logical?

[Morbid_Obesity]

I tried an unported PMI razzor barrel and then a ported one and only noticed a difference in volume. I don't think porting really does anything except reduce noise.

[nitromoose]

So, with all of the posts above does this mean that I could take my stock 98C barrel, find a paint that matches up with it nicely, then make my own ports into it with a drill press, and then clean out the inside of the barrel with some super lightweight steelwool (Hmmm, that might not be a great idea) and/or brasso that it could possiably match some of the aftermarket setups out there?

Dosen't seem right, but if all of the above (the three S's) apply it would seem to work.

What do you think?

(btw, these are just the stray thoughts that ran through my mind while reading this thread last night on third shift.)

[Streaks]

Originally posted by gatotsu
ok i asked a physics expert..

they said that BOTH are true


the higher velocity would give it a stronger push meaning it would be more accuracte than a lower velocity

but other times the higher velocity can also cause a curve more than a lower because of the friction between the air surrounding the ball and the environment

they said that the accuracy would be controlled by the velocity and aerodynamics

also.. they said "the conical shape is ideal cause it minimizes air turbulance in front of the object therefore the paintball will most likely be more accuracte at a higher velocity setting"


Um, I think perhaps your friend was thinking of a rifle bullet man. Paintballs are not conical, they are spheres. Also, he said that rifling would help which to some extent is true however, he's thinking of an 'ideal' situation. I.E. the paintballs are all in perfect balance.

The biggest reason more velocity hinders accuracy is due to the irregularities in the ball's surface acting against the airflow around it. The little irregularities act like little deflectors and catch air or even make for different air pressures around the ball. This is more pronounced at greater speeds because the air can exert more pressure on the ball (it pushes back at the ball with the same pressure the ball exerts on the air around it).

Yes, if you were shooting bullets more speed and rifling would help. But not with paintballs.










Streaks

[aballama]

it's called an armson stealth, it does get slightly greater range because the ball is spinning due to spiral rifling, so less air resistance, and if anyone wants to say they are not accurate, i will test it against anything, i've had actual competitions with people with autocockers, bushmasters, angels and shockers, using the same paintballs, and i let them make a spread on a flat surface, then proceed to put paintballs within a 1-2" spread inside of their 5-6" spread. they were using various dyes, smart parts, freaks, bigshots etc, i was using a high pressure blowback with a 13" armson stealth. the armson stealth works, and it works better than any barrel out there. and porting does only help noise, that's why they port barrels is to make them quieter, and yes, if you were to smooth out a stock barrel as smooth as an aftermarket barrel and match paint with it, would be as good as an aftermarket barrel, they both started as big peices of roundstock aluminum, it's the machining quality that sets them apart, so if you were to make them the same quality(smooth the inside) they would work just as good, but don't use steel wool, that would make it rougher, use like very high grit sand paper, then buffing, then polishing., and yes longer barrels are better, that gives it more of a chance to stop random spin, ok let walk through this, no spin is good, spin that is always the same is better, random spin is bad, barrels like armson stealth and flatlines try to harness spin, and use it to be better, while straight smoothbore barrels try to stop all spin, and mitchellrg, yeah it only takes a couple of inches to get to 300 fps, but just because it's at 300 fps does that mean its accurate, don't talk about velocity and accuracy as the same thing, they are not, you need more barrel to stop the spin if you are using smoothbore. that's why straight rifled barrels work better as short barrels than smoothbore when short, cause it stabilizes the ball faster, if you don't know what you are talking about don't talk, cause someone like me will officially label you as an idiot. and yes more velocity does hurt accuracy, but you need it to get range, at 100 fps your gun will be extremely accurate, but you still can't hit anything cause you have no range, 300 fps is actually about the perfect compromise between the two. you go too much higher and you sacrifice alot of accuracy, lower and you sacrifice too much range, have you ever put your gun up to about 400 fps just for kicks and taken a few shots, the balls curve all over the place, unless you've got the mythical 25 inch barrel that mitchell talks about. anyone that is stupid enough to question what i said will be shown to be as much of an idiot as mitchell is. if you have any more barrel questions, post them. i will tell you, i do my best to help people on paintball questions, and it ticks me off when people go around and tell false things and just spread their stupidity. as far as the rest of the people here, streaks, you are right but rifling does help paintballs,nitromoose: the answers to your questions are yes,morbidobesity: yes your right,echoX:porting is for noise, it does nothing else unless you have low pressure and the porting is early, cause the gas with then be vented before it fully pushes the ball, and you will have to raise your pressure to get correct velocity,tippmann dude: yes your right,mitchell: finish high school, dynasty: good job telling mitchell he's stupid. gatotsu: yes longer barrels do decrease velocity, you just have to up it a little, especially in high pressure guns, when you shoot a ball it actually shoots faster than 300 fps inside the barrel, then the barrel slows it down (in a high pressure), so the longer barrel makes it slow down more, you've got the grooved barrel thing perfect, and the longer the barrel doesn't help as much in a grooved barrel, but it does in a smoothbore, when you asked the physics people i beleive they misunderstood paintball, so just compared it to real guns, that doesn't enitery work. my father was a physics major, chemistry minor at MSU, at the time it was like the number 3 physics university in the world, so spend my whole childhood years as prettymuch a long physics school. he'll readily admit i know physics almos as well as he does.

[Streaks]

Hrm....the only problem I see with all that is the bit about the ball slowing down in the barrel. You should have your marker tuned so that the ball is at it's maximum velocity _just_ before it hits the barrel's crown. This way the barrel does _not_ slow it down. Real firearms are typically geared to do this as well. It's why you get muzzle flash, as there's a bit of unspent powder coming out after the projectile.

I guess you could have the ball max out inside the barrel and then slow down, but it's not very effecient on gas is all. :)

Also, at what range do you do your compairsons? I practice at about 160-170' on coffie cans (roughly head size). If the paint and barrel are in agreement, I can drill 'em easily. Not 100% of the time, but I'd say six out of ten shots at least.

The only reason I discredit rifling in a paintbarrel is because all you are doing is spinning the shell. If there was a way to cause the paint inside to spin as well, then you might have better results. Then again you might have greatly adverse results if the paint has settled at all or has any thin spots in it. And what are the chances of getting inconsistant paint right? :laugh:

I've seen armson barrels in the field and always respect the people wielding them above the average players. They are typically put on my secondairy priority list behind people with bigshot, autospirt and javelin barrels. Just my experience there, been hit by more guys with those barrels than the armson.






Streaks

[aballama]

yes, your gun should be tuned to be at max velocity at the muzzle break, but you can only do that on lower pressure markers, and i stated that was for high pressure, which isn't very efficient, but that's the way it is in high pressure, and as for my tests, prob 75-100 feet, didn't measure, but lets put it this way, i own a $800 autococker with a 14" dye Stainless Steel, and i'm selling it because my black dragun(150 dollar blowback) with a 13" armson is more accurate. and the only shell spinning bit is not really true, the fluid doesn't spin as fast for a little while, until they even out, but it still spins, and the shell spinning is still what cuts through the air, and as far as imperfect paint goes, yeah imperfect paint affects a rifles barrel, but it affects a smoothbore more, when the paint isn't perfect it will set of the the path of the ball right? but since the ball is spinning, the path is be contantly set off in different directions, so it travels in a kind of corkscrew pattern, that sounds bad but it's not, cause that corkscrew is only about a 1/2 inch corkscrew pattern, not even noticeable, but on a smoothbore, the path of the ball is being change all the time in one direction when you have a bad ball, creating a curve.lets put it this way, i can shoot brass eagle with my armson and it only has a very slightly noticeable drop in accuracy. and never curves. and when i aim at about a 45 degree angle in the air and shoot, it never curves, it makes a perfect arc all the way till it hits the ground.

[Streaks]

:)

Well, I can't argue too much with you as I do agree for the most part. And I admit to having never tried an armson barrel.

And, I do run LP. So understand that's where I'm coming from. My '01 'cocker is set up just about perfect for LP (missing the bolt and a front end kit, everything else is there) so it's what I'm used to. I'll have to try out an armson at the field some time for a compairison.

Wish they'd have had cheaply priced, good quality markers when I got into the sport. Back then I paid $300 for an F4 Illistrator clone. Then they came out with the damn automag right after I'd laid out my cash. *sigh*






Streaks

[aballama]

try one, go for the 16 inch, cause from my experience with them the 16 is a tad more accurate and very quiet, while the 13 inch is a tad less accurate and loud. you don't even have to buy it, just go to a store, tell them your thinking about buying and ask if you can test it out, i gaurantee you'll buy it if you try it. where i live is one of the poorest counties in michigan, everyone shows up with MAYBE 500 balls to play a full day, accuracy is everything for us, and we've tried every barrel to get it, and the armson is head and shoulders above the rest. and the fact that it is even accurate with bad balls is better.

[Streaks]

I'll give it a try. But sense I'm unemployed sense august, I can't buy **** atm.

I play the same way typically. One shot, one hit. It's why my cocker is LP and set up for long balling. The one armson I have tried was on a tippman 98c. It (using generic field paint) was nowhere NEARLY as accurate as my setup. Which is why I'm a doubting Thomas at this point. But like I said, I've not tried them on the 'cocker and won't form a true opinion until I do : )

That and they have ports which makes LP more difficult.








Streaks

[aballama]

the ports are very small, and near the end only,(i figure you know that but i might as well tell you.) i can't believe mitchell hasn't replied yet, usually when you tear someone a new ******* they at least fight back

[Streaks]

lol


So is the bore medium/large I assume? I've gotten to where I really enjoy shooting the smaller rounds now. But I guess Nelson is pretty cheap :D







Streaks

[aballama]

medium bore, not large, shoots diablo and pmi well, never tried nelson, and i've only tried it once, but severe paintballs shoot very well, accurately, in 2000 rounds of mostly constant 9-10 bps never broke one ball, always broke on target. i'm gonna use them more and see if they are all as good as that one case.

[Streaks]

I tend to like Nelson for large sized rounds. Like the PMI stuff for money vs performance. Had a very poor experience with a full case of JT Maxims. Still have most of it sitting in the closet. They shoot well enough (not as good as they should for the price tho!) but they simply bounce on EVERYTHING that isn't five feet away! :eyes: :mad: :pissed:

Never had a ball breakage problem with my 'cocker either. I think I've busted one round in over five cases. And that is one I short stroked the trigger on too :) But I tend to use marbs or any RPS brand too.







Streaks

[aballama]

i'll have to try the nelsons, you say the JT maxims have a hard shell, i'll try them in the winter, cause when i use pmi in the winter they just break in the chamber, cause they get so brittle, so maybe the maxims will just get brittle enough to work, i know there are winter balls out there, but no one near me sells them, and i hate buying paint over the internet, so i have to come up with alternatives. :D

[Streaks]

Well, the JT shells are THICK. I ordered them last august when it was warm. I tried the drop test on 'em and ended up having to hurl the ball hard enough to almost throw my shoulder out of joint in order to make the thing bust on my concrete stoop! It was insane :pissed:

And when I load 'em up, they don't break on anything unless it's under 20' away. And even then it's a 50/50 chance depending on the angles and whatnot.

Plus, don't take my word for it as I am using a LP 'cocker. But even in stock form my cocker has never chopped a ball and never had one....hmm...no take that back, I've had ONE ball, think it was BigBall, bust on firing, but I chalk that up to the round being FAR to large for my autospirit barrel at the time (I couldn't blow it through the bore!).

Anyway, if you try 'em PM me and let me know how they work for your setup and what you think of them. I suspect I just got the fabled 'bad batch' :roll:




Streaks :sleep:

[aballama]

well, i'm not sure if i'll even have a chance to play again, winter is almost over, and not a lot of people are playin, but i'll keep ya posted if i do.

[Super Sniper]

Lets discuss straight rifling for a few days shall we?

Some one start with an opinion please.

[miyamoto]

Very neat thread.

I have recently tried out for and made a local tournament team.

Some people had questions regarding real firearms vs. paintball guns.

There is not much in the way of comparison.

Until this year, I was a nationally ranked competitor in IDPA pistol competition. My fiancee is the two time female national champion, beating the female world champion in the process.

We reload our own bullets of course. This affords us shooting a very high volume of rounds. We shoot rifle and shotgun as well.

When talking about firearms, it is important to remember that they do work like paintballs in the sense that they rely on expanding gases to propel the bullet down the barrel.

It is more involved. gun powder works more like c02...sort of.
It is a solid and turns into a gas. The shorter the barrel the less time the powder has to turn into gas form pushing the bullet down the barrel.

In handguns, (typically) every 1/2 inch of barrel length gives us 25 more feet per second past 4 inches. this deminishes around six inches if using slower burning powders (read below)

Also...the differences in powder themselves. Some powders are fast burning (very high pressure) and some powders are slow burning (much lower pressures)
Many competitors use fast powders to give them (a perceived) smaller amount of felt recoil.
also, a faster powder can work the slide section of the handgun quicker giving (potentially) faster follow on shots if multiple hits are required for a given target.

Now...using fast powders has its dangers...a typical 9m.m. has a working range of around 30,000 psi...using fast powders will made the working pressures sometimes go over 33,000 psi (depending on manufacturer).
The 9m.m. casing is very stout...I have not witnessed anyone blow one up.
But .40 caliber on the other hand....I have witnessed over a dozen gun explosions at matches from other competitors.
More competitive people use .40cal to balance the weight/velocity/power factor (for the rules) combo.
This can combine to a potentially deadly combination if pressures get too high.
quick powders can spike very easily...

Another thing that greatly affects accuracy is bullet weight, bullet profile and rate of twist of land and groove.
This more greatly applies to precision, custom, handbuilt rifles.
For rifles, it is super important to find the right rate if twist (rifling variation per inch and direction of twist) for a certain caliber of bullet and a certain bullet weight.

Here is an easy test for firearm efficiency (in most cases).
Take a handgun with a very short barrel, say about 3.5 inches.
take a handgun with a barrel length of 5 inches. same kind of handgun.
using the same bullet, see which one gives you more muzzle flash. The more muzzle flash will also be the louder gun...this is because there is a larger amount of unburnt gunpowder leaving the bore and burning outside the barrel...wasting power and potentially disturbing your concentration.
with the longer barrel gun you will have less muzzle flash and a milder sound. use a decibel meter to test this as well.

Past a certain barrel length the powder is simply all burnt up and is not expanding the bullet any longer...now the bullet is simply slowing down on the rifling (lands and grooves).
you either need a shorter barrel, or a slower burning powder , with a lighter bullet to utilize the barrel length you have effectively. this gives the most consistent velocities overall.
that part translates directly to paintball and even more so since paintball guns work at much, much lower psi than real guns.

finding the right barrel length/paintball-bore combo/high vs. low pressure gun/ test for environmental conditions, such as humidity (they already make gadgets for that in rifle competition).
Not only that but test on a regular basis the consistency of the paintball. test with dial calipers, or better yet micrometers from the firearms industry. create a log for each brand.
I use a digital scale from my firearms reloading kit to measure down to the gram the variation in weight of the ball.
find the heaviest and most consistent.
paintballers have an advantage right now...there is no weight limit, or power factor like in firearms competition.
power factors only allow a certain bullet weight/ speed combo.
Go too fast, or heavy, or too slow and light and they kick you out.

paintball you only have to make a certain feet per second.
If I have a ball that weight more on the average than everyone elses and I am pushing 280 fps like everyone else...I can tear folks up, if I have the skill to lay it down.

I bet you, paintball tournament level competition is going to get soooo competitive that paintball manufacturers are going to be super, super consistent and start selling light, medium and heavy balls...then the powers that be will regulate and create a power factor similar to handgun competition that keeps you from getting the current benefit that we can be taking advantage of.

In handgun competition, we had a simple formula= bullet speed x bullet weight = no less than 165,000
So if I have a .45 caliber bullet that weighs 230 grams and use enough gun powder out of a five inch barrel pistol to make the gun shoot at least 720 feet per second
to make their their minimum power factor floor...i.e. 230 grams x 720 feet per second = 165,600
If you go lower you get the boot.

In paintball tournament play, they would have to make it the opposite to limit how much power you can put down range.
so they would not let you get above a certain power factor.

well...I blabbered long enough...

Like I said...enjoy the advantage while we can and do your research if you are into high level competition.


Definitely things to consider.

Have a good one,

Will

[Streaks]

Personally, I've not tried these barrel types. Tho my only hesitation about them would be that, in the ones I've seen (which, grant it, were all older models), the lands were rougher than the grooves. Which would lead me to believe they would induce greater friction (beyond what they are already imparting by being a smaller diamiter than the grooves), and might lead to ball failure if you have a tight ball/barrel fit. That and it would cause your marker to work harder to push the ball in the first place, which leads to a bit of a drop in effeciency.

I've been curious to try one of the CP (think that's who makes them) barrels to see how they do. I have a loaner Spyder Sport that needs a half way decient barrel on it.





Streaks

[Streaks]

Hey Will

It's cool to see someone doing the competitive shooting. My wife used to shoot mexican silouete a while back. Was very competitive. Now I'm getting her into paintball (and RC).

But um, well mostly folks try not to associate real firearms with paintball unless, like in this thread, the topic comes up of compairing them. Which, IMO, there is NO compairison. Just trying to keep the image of the sport seperate from real firearms is all.

You have factors in both which make it hard to compair the two. Namely that a bullet is not deformed by the gas pushing it. The bullet suffers no ill affects be being accellerated so fast, etc.

And, manufacturers have been doing the weight thing for some time now man. It's why you see the high zoot paint having the "heavy" or "thick" fills. And the rec/practice stuff is typically of a "lighter" or "thinner" fill.

Not sure about regulating it as that would be far too big of a PITA for most folks. And besides, by limiting the velocity at the muzzle, it basically limits the rest. All one need worry about is that their marker is being effecient. That, as in a real firearm, would mean that the paintball is at it's max velocity as it hits the crown of the muzzle. If you use a shorter barrel, use higher pressure gas. If a longer one, use lower pressure gas. Same as with a firearm only us paintballers have the advantage of being able to dial it in as we go. We don't have to spend time with charts and weighing out powder and compairing primers and case walls or heights or bullet cross sections, etc etc. We just pop off a frew rounds over the chrono and attack the regulator with the allen key :) Also, paintball is more governed by safety of the person on the other end of the round. Not the one shooting it. Yes I know, 'duh' but again, they are two totally different worlds.

Rifling in markers tends to be moot IMO. I'm still not sold on the theory as applied to a paint pellet. Just too many variables when dealing with liquids or elastic objects IMO. Tho I'm still out on the straight lands theory.

But good to talk to someone who knows their way around real firearms! I've forgotten more about 'em than most folks I know. Got into shooting when I was 13 back in the 80's :)





Streaks

[miyamoto]

streaks,

Yeah, at the beginning of my post I stated there was no real comparison between the two...some folks were making it seem that way. Just responding to them.

They both use expanding gas.
That is about it.
Rifling won't work with them either...not in the way firearms use rifling....they compare only in name.

But as far as real bullets not being affected by the gun (as an aside) powder. That would be wrong. The expanding gas in typical pistol powder burns at 4,500 degrees right at ignition.
most pistol bullets have an open back end (if using jacketed bullets), exposing the lead interior. lead melt temp for pistol bullets is 500 degrees. That is why the bullet usually weighs less after being fired. The smoke you see after firing is mostly the lead solid just being turned into gas form.

That is one of the reasons (just one) high volume pistol shooters have a higher lead content in their blood than most:crazy:

Yeah, I know if is easier for most people to hide out in the closet when it comes to real guns these days.
Since being anti-firearm is so p.c. it is not suprising that people like to keep a distance from it...to make sure not to offend people out of proprieties sake.

I remember a saying about cowards dying a thousand deaths...something like that anyway;)
No disrespect intended to anyone. just everyone in general.
if it fits, wear it. ( I have spent a good deal of time lobbying for our freedoms, not just firearms)

anyway,

The point of my post was to show that they could not really be compared, only in the most general terms.

On the weight issue.
I have talked with tech guys from rp, nelson, draxxus.
They all say thick (no wipe) fills simply cost more. makes them harder for cheaters to wipe. more vital in tournament play.
that is the main reason you see them in high dollar paint.
cheap practice paint will have cheap fill.
cheaper, uses less ingredient mixture.

Not one (of the companies that i talked to) mentioned that a heavier fill gets you more range at a given velocity.
The guy who started this topic is one of the first I have come across to get that data out of a paint manufacturer.
which is very cool.

So to sum: This is a great thread, with no real comparison to real firearms only in the most vague notion.

and streaks...I will make sure that I try not to confuse my custom, hand built, 3,000 dollar, model '1911', .45 caliber, match grade pistol, with my new aka viking compressed air paintball gun, as I head out onto the playing field;)

Have a good one,

Will

[Streaks]

*sigh* J-F-C...

I had a nice post here but it seems I used a smiley too often and had to go back.........which means my post is of course, gone from the field. I give...

Basically I'd said that I wasn't trying to bust chops and agree with you.









*fumes at the board*




Streaks

[miyamoto]

Streaks,

No prob. board did that to me last week.

Hey, you are making me feel old:|

You had said you forgot more about shooting than most people know.

Seems we started shooting around the same year and age:laugh:

Have a good one,

Will

[Super Sniper]

Guys I said straight rifling. To answer your question on a straight rifled barrel no it doesn’t have more friction. This is how I explain it. Have you ever seen a rental Ice skate and a professional Ices skate? Tell me what the difference is. The professional ice skate is much much faster than the rented one. Why you ask? Well it is because the professional skate blade is more tapered and has less surface to create friction than lets say a sky. Do you know why they put wax on a ski and not on a skate? If your smart you should ask those questions to your self, find the answers and then you will see my point.


If you would like to test one may I recommend this site

www.paintball-loco.com

all of those barrels are straight rifled.

[aballama]

ok, super sniper, you have the whole idea as it relates to paintball right, and not to be mean, but the ice skate comparison kind of sucks. (i know it's not on topic and not important but it drives me crazy) first, skate blades aren't tapered, they are about a quarter inch wide and to make them sharp you cut a radius in them, they actually have 2 surfaces, a right and left edges of the radius, and in ice skates more surface area is faster, cuase of the way ice works, the ice turns to water under the pressure of the blade, that's why you slide easily, so more surface area just means that the weight is distributed more evenly and slides better, that's why speed skate blades are around 2 feet long. the reason they purposfully make hockey skate blades shorter is for easier turning. i know that's not in any way related, but it was driving me crazy so i had to post this, sorry.(just in case your wondering, i'm a hockey player so i know this stuff) ANYWAY, on topic now, i like the point brought up about heavier paintballs, they are a definite advantage. miyamoto, you have to remember that (excluding rifled barrels) there is random spin on the paintball, so you need more length on a barrel to stabilize the ball, it's not just getting the optimum velocity with the right weight, etc. etc. like in a firearm,in paintball you also have to let the ball stabilize.so there is that factor involved, probably the most important factor(that is the main advantage with rifled barrels though, it forces the ball to stabilize) i agree completely with miyamoto on firearm rights though, except you said something like "no disrespect", to the people that disagree.... i mean every disrespect to anyone against firearm rights, it's in the constitution as my right to bear arms, no one can take that away.

[Super Sniper]

Ok, Let me ask your opinions on the 21" Thunder pig barrel? It's straight riffled and has a 3-piece design. Its also long 21". So what do you think about that? You can view it by going to www.pinabtll-loco.com and its under 21" super sniper barrel. I would really like to know your opinions since you are smart.

[aballama]

it would be very accurate, but you don't need 21" of barrel. In a smoothbore barrel, after 16" inches the ball is almost always spin free, and in straight rifling, like that one, it would happen a lot faster. 14" would be more than plenty, 10" would probably still be accurate, it's all about what length you would prefer to have on your gun. i didn't check out the price on that site, but you can get those exact barrels for under $20 brand new on ebay, and they are always on there. i use a 13" armson stealth and i can snipe with the best of 'em

[pEnNyWiSdOm225]

Thanx thats alot of help

[liquidknight]

thank god someone is not letting emotion make their judgements.
just read all your data, and i hold a degree in advanst physics (but haven't been able to spell since my motorcycle crash in 88 so shut the &&*%%^#$%# up if your laughing at my spelling) and your so right it's not funny, and stock barrels need to be looked at on an individual basis. my 8.5" stock tippman seems more accurate than my 14" dye excel go fig.:crazy:

[Super Sniper]

Originally posted by liquidknight
thank god someone is not letting emotion make their judgements.
just read all your data, and i hold a degree in advanst physics (but haven't been able to spell since my motorcycle crash in 88 so shut the &&*%%^#$%# up if your laughing at my spelling) and your so right it's not funny, and stock barrels need to be looked at on an individual basis. my 8.5" stock tippman seems more accurate than my 14" dye excel go fig.:crazy:

Accident hey? I feel your pain. I cant paintball for 2 months. I got shot in the Balls point blank with a hot gun. Shuddering my left testicle. But enough with that. I agree with you. Don’t let emotions, opinions, or “I said it so it means its true facts” get in the way of a barrel.. I read this whole entire thread already. Very interesting. I have learned a few things about the physics. You don’t go on physics to buy the best barrel. No you go on acting to buy the best barrel. The best barrel is the barrel you like the most. That’s why it’s the best.

Here is another question that I have. Straight rifling, will it have more or less friction then a smooth bore? I say it will have less because there are less areas the ball will touch. Who here agrees with this opinion?

[aballama]

it should have the same amount of friction, because the same amount of ball is touching because the ball forms to the rifling, ....but in reality all straight rifled barrels i've tried have not been as smooth as high end normal barrels,so they create more friction cause of that. not because of bad quality but because on a smooth bore the inside of the barrel can easily be smoothed in a lathe, but with rifling you can't do that because it would smooth away the rifling, and make it less effective. but i'm sure you can get coatings put on it and make it smoother.

[Streaks]

Ok, I _think_ I see what your trying to say with the ski vs skate thing. However, the leading edge of a skate liquifies the ice as it bears down on it, which helps lubricate the blade as well as form a kind of liquid bearing for it to roll over (think engine bearings). You wax a ski in order to protect it. Yes it helps it slide better, but it mostly comes from the old days when they were still made of wood. It's just traditional. And how long would the wax really stay on there anyway? About the first hundred feet or so? C'mon, if we can make graphite parts that can sustain space flight, I'm pretty sure snow caused abraision is nothing... :)

As for the friction being more or less. I'd have to say more. In a smooth bore, ideally, only two opposite sides of the ball should touch. which is less friction that four contact points (assuming for lands minimum in the straight bores). So, if you just have the sides of the barrel touching, that's less friction, than if you have four points touching. Also, if the bore of the rifled barrel is true and the ball fits in it properly, then you will also increase friction because now you have the sides of the ball wanting to touch the smooth part of the bore like normal, as well as four lands trying to dig/press into the ball. And, unless the tops of the lands are smoother than the grooves, then your increasing the friction threefold.



my two bits : )







Streaks - who cringes as he hits submit...and copies all this to the clipboard just in case *mutter*

WooHoo it posted!!!!!!! *happy dance*

[leif52pickup]

Originally posted by HampsterFist
I got a question concerning rifled barrels. Aight well we all know that rifling a barrel will increase accuracy in a regular real bullet by stabilizing it as it send the bullet out in a spiraling motion.

My question is this, do rifled barrels make any difference in shot stability for paintball? Cause real bullets are solid, and spiraling them out helps greatly, but paintballs are pretty much liquid filled round shells. Is it better to have a smooth bore, or rifled bore barrel? Please respond with facts and examples, not just trash talk. Thanx

~HampsterFist

Paintballs are spheres so the the rifling won't help (and they aren't solid). Rifling might actually make them curve. Like was stated earlier no one shoots musket balls anymore. I'm not going to go into the physics of this at 3:40am, but maybe I can later. Hope this helps

[Streaks]

Well, even musket balls started off being fired from smoothe bore. And later they started using cylindrical rounds. : )









Streaks

[steve davidson]

The previous comments would be accurate IF paintballs were spherical in shape - but they aren't. About the closest decription one could find would be 'oblate spheroid'.

Once again - at least a year later - rifling in paintball barrels is not there to induce or create spin. Its there to create a larger surface area and give the (non) spherical paintball a better chance to find a good seal.

[Streaks]

I agree....sorta

If anything the rifling pushes in on the paintball's elastic surface and shoves it away from the bore.

It's there to _stablize_ the round. Which is all that happens when we use smoothe bore barrels as well. The sides of the bore contact the ball and help to make it stable.

This is why a good ball to barrel match is SO important. You want a round that is just snut in the bore but still slides out. And even when there is a great match, you will still be able to see a little daylight between the halves of the shell and the bore. Because the seam tends to be a bit larger around.

But, a proper match means that when the gas hits the ball and it stretches a bit, the ball seals up better. It also means a very stable flight due to the fact that more of the ball's surface area has been in contact, longer, on the bore.

I can't help but see how rifling would just add more variables into a system that's already not quite perfect. As long as the lands and grooves are straight, what's the point? It's just novel and P.T. Barnem is proven right again. :) If the rifling has twist to it, then at least your attempting something. Don't know how good it does on a plastic (plastic as in, a maluable or liquid state, not what it's made of) projectile tho, as I'm still not sold. Perhaps for ranges 100' or under *shrug* until I try an Armson I'll not be able to really comment other than to say I'm doubtful but willing to try 'em.

The only argument I could make for straight lands and slats would be that they offer <#of lands> of positive contact. You _know_ there's going to be at least that many contact points on the ball. Which I can see as a good thing. So I can see both sides.

What someone needs to do is make a sleeved barrel kit that has the straight rifling. So that way we could try 'em on all brands of paint. With a good paint/barrel match to start with! THEN we could sit down and compair the two technologies on an even basis IMO. Either that or find one barrel of each technology. Match paint to them as close to perfect as you can get. Try to keep all things equal if possible (doubtful), and then try a shootout.

I'd be interested to see the results. But you'd have to keep good records. I.e how old the paint used is. What the humidity is. What elevation are you at (air density affects ballistics greatly), etc etc. And shoot from the SAME MARKER!!


I suspect we're trying to say the same thing actually :D




Streaks

[Greggums]

I commpletely agree with the science of what was discussed in the beginning of this forum.

HOWEVER-

I once owned an autococker and an automag. No matter what I did, the autococker always got better range. To be more specific, the balls coming out of the Mag always dipped sooner in their trajectory. I know according to science they were both traveling at 300 fps and should theoredically travel the same, but they didn't. I'm not the only one who says this. I here people say all the time that cockers have great range, apparently 80% of paintballers are suffering from mass dillusion. Either that or cockers do get better range.
So, untill someone straps a cocker and a mag side by side with identical barrels and paint, and plots their tragectory, I am sceptical of the science that some people put on paintball. As far as I know none of the reviewers working for the magazines or .coms recieved a doctorate in phicics and engineering.
The science of observation is just as powereful as theory, and most of what was stated above was just theory, just as alot of the stuff barrel manufactuers say is.
To be fair, I'm not saying that all of the original post is wrong, not by far, much of it is true. However it shouldn't be taken as gospel either.


also-(my opinions based on experimentation)

-porting does improve accuracy(the poof of air thing)
-the most important thing besides proper bore to paint fit in a barrel is the inside finish, and how much friction it produces
-evil barrels suck, Ive seem better machining from a third grader with a hand drill.Seriously, I've seen barrels in stores that are HORRID!

[leif52pickup]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by steve davidson
[B]The previous comments would be accurate IF paintballs were spherical in shape - but they aren't. About the closest decription one could find would be 'oblate spheroid'.

Right, I meant sherical like "the earth is a sphere", not like a perfect geometric sphere.

[98csniper]

what is the best barrel you can buy and the best paintballs you can buy with extreme accuracy.

[Streaks]

sniper...

Check out the new Microshot by Lapco. Just released. Has a tighter bore (think it was .685 or .684). Use any smaller brand of quality paint. Stuff like RPS brands, or Hellfires.

It really helps to have a consistant setup too. Having a quality regulator helps this a lot. Shot to shot consistancy makes for tighter groups.

Beyond that I'd say to just practice the long-ball game. Practice _does_ make perfect! :D







Streaks

[98csniper]

thanks, anyway, what do you think about the Armson Stealth 16in. or would the 14 in. be better. I hear the 16 in has more accuracy. I also hear that the Empire Twister is pretty good, then again would the 16in or the 14 in be better.:confused:

[Streaks]

um, if you have your mind made up already, why'd you ask?


Personally I've outshot Stealth users on the field with my Lapco Autospirit and Marballizer. The Stealth has the reach sure, but my groups are tigher. It's one thing to be accurate enough to make people watch you from behind cover. It's another thing to make them fear putting their heads out because they just saw you gog two of their buddies at 100+'...








but.....your welcome......anyway :mad:









Streaks

[98csniper]

Thanks. I hear that Lapco sucks so sorry for the confusion

[Streaks]

Ok so, if you think Lapco sucks and Armson rules.......WHY did you ask??

And sorry to hear you dislike Lapco. Not sure where you get your info from but IMO, they are wrong. But, what do I care, just another dummy for longballing at with my autospirit.


And the only things that suck, are ignorant people :|









Streaks

[tterb0]

sorry to interupt, but i just gotta say my brain hurts after reading this thread...i need more :sleep: sleep :sleep:

[Streaks]

:laugh:

[Trigger Boy]

I have been looking into a Progresive or Teardrop I have found each of them for $40.00 would that be a good aftermarket barel if i where to follow what you said cus right now i have a 9" 1/2" stock:confused:

[EchoX]

Anything would be pretty much better than ur 9.5" stock barrel. $40 is a good price and SP makes good barrels. Go with the teardrop.

[Radioman]

OK High Adjucator, I have a new Spyder Xtra (Basic Gun), but good starter gun. The stock barrel seems to be much less accuruate than alot of the guys I was up against. I could shoot as far or at least it seemed that way, but I was much less accurate. If I get a Dye barrel or something else are you saying it won't matter! I'd like a quiter barrel, but that's not my main goal. HELP>>>>>>>>>>>

[EchoX]

Radioman, you won't see radical improvements, only a little. The key to accuracy is regulation/consistancy of gas being shot out, the quality of the barrel, and the quality of the paint being shot. The more round the ball, the more accurately it will shoot.

[penguins_r_kewl]

Originally posted by flyingdeadbody1
thats why you get a freak

I have a freak they work very nice until you chop a ball, and if I dont clean it, it gets innacurate, but I dont know, maybee my velocity gets higher, I own a spyder so, you know, some problems

[Doughnut::x::]

Ok. I'm now deciding (from reading this long... tedious... yet, helpful thread) between the SP teardrop and the Armson stealth. Someone tell me in their honest EXPERIENCED opinion which one I should go with.

[Zope4eveR]

Get The J&J ceramic Alot Of people like that barrel is its really inexpensive!!:)

[Zope4eveR]

I wanna Get that Barrel So Bad To!!! To Replace My Electra DX stock barrel!!

[Zope4eveR]

Or should I Get a Tear Drop or a progressive SP:confused:

[Doughnut::x::]

Ended up with a CP 1 piece lol... get it, it's cheap and very good.

[VeNoM]

I got a CP 1 peice for now too, they are nice barrels, especially for the price.

Zope4eveR - You are suggesting barrels to other people that you have never even tried your self? How ya gonna do that? :eyes: ... As for cheap barrels, I suggest CP's or Lapco's.... Higher priced, CP 2-peice :)

[focwolf]

From what i've gathered from this thread the finsh and ball match is the most important thing to look for in a barrel. So now my question is which barrel has the best finsh and what paint matches is

[Streaks]

Well, I'm a Lapco fan (duh) so my pics would be...

BigShot + Diablo or any "large" or "standard" size ball

AutoSpirit + Marballizer or any other premium RPS ball

MicroShot + HellFire (now called HellFire Pro) or any other micro sized ball.

BigShot = .689
AutoSpirit = .687
MicroShot = .684

The finish on the Lapco barrels is tough to beat. Their interiors are like glass and the exterior isn't far behind. The stainless is even better IMO but maybe I get caught up with all that shiny metal :crazy:




Streaks

[focwolf]

Thx for the help. i reely apriciate it.

[Christian713]

well..i'm not sure....well the thing is this. many have asked why would the industry make 18 or 21 inch barrels. see the thing is that remember...back in the day woods was the only place to paly paintball. so with a long barrel you could push it through any bush or ghillie suit that youmight be behind. now you know. i'm not sure if this was answered in the other pages..i read up to page 4 and got sick of reading.

[Trigger Boy]

so your saying a 12 inch J&J progresive is just as accurate as a 12 inch Dye boomstick:confused:

[teufelhunden]

No.

A 12" J&J Ceramic is just as accurate as a 16" J&J Ceramic, and a 12" Boomer is just as accurate as a 16" Boomer.

[Christian713]

well see....it depends on the quality of the metal...paint/barrel match in order to be more accurate. if for example you have a quality paint brand that is the same exact size as the j&j..it's going to shoot more accurate, unlike if the boomy is another size. also....the reason why certain prices is due to how their made. i can't remember the word right now....when i do..i'll get back to ya.

[EchoX]

Originally posted by Christian713
also....the reason why certain prices is due to how their made.

Dye must have very complex and sophisticated means to make their barrels since they cost so much... Na, must be their name.

[mawes207]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but Inertia has nothing to do with velocity. Mass x velocity equals momentum
:P

[Streaks]

I thought inertia was related to mass and the resistance of the mass changing direction(?)


Streaks

[goalscorer]

The bottom line is that no one really knows what they are talking about. The only thing that we know for sure that has been said is that excluding spin no barrel can give you more distance because a ball comming out of barrel a and 280fps will go as far and no farther than a ball comming out of barrel b at 280fps.

Accuracy:
Lots of varibles play into how accurate the barrel is. For me the biggest thing is is the barrel consitant. If it always curves 6in left i can deal with that rather than one that shoots dead straight 6 out of 10 times. Thoes 4 times may get you shot. If you know what your ball is going to do every time once it leaves the barrel then you can aim accordingly. Whereas if the ball comes out like a knuckle ball (no spin at all) and woobles all over the place then you have no clue where it is going to end up.

Please no barrel is the best and shots the farthest and the straightest everytime. It all has to do with what paint you use what gun how fast the ball is going and what the weather is like outside. In addition to the idiot behind the gun. Learn to aim before you blame it on your barrel.

[Streaks]

Originally posted by goalscorer
The bottom line is that no one really knows what they are talking about. The only thing that we know for sure that has been said is that excluding spin no barrel can give you more distance because a ball comming out of barrel a and 280fps will go as far and no farther than a ball comming out of barrel b at 280fps.

Accuracy:
Lots of varibles play into how accurate the barrel is. For me the biggest thing is is the barrel consitant. If it always curves 6in left i can deal with that rather than one that shoots dead straight 6 out of 10 times. Thoes 4 times may get you shot. If you know what your ball is going to do every time once it leaves the barrel then you can aim accordingly. Whereas if the ball comes out like a knuckle ball (no spin at all) and woobles all over the place then you have no clue where it is going to end up.

Please no barrel is the best and shots the farthest and the straightest everytime. It all has to do with what paint you use what gun how fast the ball is going and what the weather is like outside. In addition to the idiot behind the gun. Learn to aim before you blame it on your barrel.



*golf clap*

Yup, you nailed it right on the head with the last bit there. Though I personally think that accuracy is simply a byproduct of consistency. But paint plays SUCH an important role. People should inspect every bag they buy...closely!

Some technologies (ports for example) do serve a purpose. Depending on what you want as an end result, you should decide whether or not to use these ideas.

Though I DO believe there is a lot of science to the formula of accuracy and consistency here. Lots of folks do, and that is why we all nit-pick things to death :crazy:




Streaks

[paintguzzler]

Boomsticks have a micro hone finish on the inside of the barrel which makes it extremely slick and smooth, which in turn decreases resistance of the paintball against the insides of the barrel. ANd a lot of porting reduces area of that slick surface, so too much porting is not a good thing. Makes sure you test barrels and see what shoots good WITH MANY DIFFERENT BRANDS OF PAINT!!! I can't stress the importance that no matter who you are, there will be a few times where you will not shoot the same paint in the same barrel over and over again. Get a barrel that works good with all kinds of paint, make it versatile. Getting a barrel that works ''great'' with one paint might suck with some other types of paint

[Streaks]

Isn't the boomstick a two piece unit? Unless they have a different design than every other manufacturer out there, the ball _doesn't touch the sides of the second half of the barrel, the one with the ports!_

It is a big muzzle break....the ball stops touching the bore when it goes into the second half of the barrel!! In reality, it is _slowing down_ as if flies past the ports.


The only big name barrels I know of that do not follow this design are the one piece units with heavy porting. The Smart Parts TearDrop and Progressive barrels are examples of this. I'm not familliar with every single barrel out there however, as I quit paying attention after I found Lapco. :D




Streaks

[theJoe]

would i get better range if i plug up some of the holes near the back of my barrel, or would that mess up my acceracy.

[focwolf]

i don't think covering up the porting would make your gun have any more range then it did before but it would make your gun more gass efficent and louder

[aznpsycho]

if you want more range, turn up the velocity. plain and simple...

[theJoe]

my velocity is all the way up, but it still seems bad. ( i have an icon e).

[aznpsycho]

then buy a spring kit.

[CoolT]

Buy a spring kit and then go chrono your gun at a local field. The maximum legal velocity and range is 300fps. Tune your gun until it's shooting around there, but don't go over.

[Rich4444]

It is a big muzzle break....the ball stops touching the bore when it goes into the second half of the barrel!! In reality, it is _slowing down_ as if flies past the ports.

Streaks, you just made my day! LOL

See, that is what I was always wondering... how can you match paint in the FRONT of the barrel when the back is sized, and the flat out fact of hte matter is, you CANT!

Really, it would be smarter to just buy like 4 different bore sizes for different barrels, and use a whole different barrel when you can. (That said, I like the Ceramic J&J for the self cleaning, weight and quietness of the barrel).

Man, the more I read here, the more I don't like my Freak kit, and the More I like my J&J. But, my Freak kit DOES seem to shoot nicely when I match the paint well, so I guess I have to give it props even if it only matches for 4 inches until it hits the front of the barrel.

I'm just thinking though, if I want to be REALLY serious about paint matching, that I'd be better to buy a set of different sized barrels so that the paint matches 8-12 inches as stated in the top of the sticky. That could be a lot of barrels though :crazy:

[death1989angel]

Originally posted by EchoX


Dye must have very complex and sophisticated means to make their barrels since they cost so much... Na, must be their name.


Nah, I like my DYE barrels than anyother they are the best Accuracy out of my freak, and pipe.

[Streaks]

http://www.lapcodirect.com (gotta enable cookies for that site otherweise it freaks out, it's a secure site that uses cookies...go figure :| )

Lapco is selling kits now of their one piece units in a nice carry case. Of course, a day late and a buck short, I already have 'em all and now they offer a kit.

The kits have the MicroShot, AutoSpirit and BigShot (.684", .687" and .689" respectivly). PLUS, they are planning on releasing a tighter bore and larger bore unit, called the PicoShot (going down the greek scale from MicroShot LOL), which is .684" (I argued for .680", but Colin told me they will bore one that caliber as long as I call up and order it), and the MegaShot in .693" for those who like to throw boulders :)


With those two new additions (still in the planning stages for the two new ones, so give 'em some time), you'd have your total kit. And no barrel I've found matches Lapco's fit and finish and sheer jaw dropping accuracy when matched to good paint.

The AutoSpirit is my workhorse though. With Marballizer in there, in my LP 'cocker, NoThInG can match it for sheer, ball-on-top-of-ball accuracy out to silly ranges. :D

Oh and ya never try to match the tip of a two piece unit, they are typically like .7xx" in caliber or some other HUGE tube size :) The only function they serve is to quiet down the report of the marker :) .....Lapco is making a two piece now called the SnapShot btw which sports 7" back units ;)

Streaks: Unpaid and unofficial Lapco spokesman :D :D

[punk_rocker543]

i was reading about 2-piece barrels and read that they were more accurate if they were longer and that one peices were less accurate if they were longer. is this true? sry if im sort of a nube and sry if this thread is dead but whatever.

[CoolT]

Originally posted by punk_rocker543
i was reading about 2-piece barrels and read that they were more accurate if they were longer and that one peices were less accurate if they were longer. is this true? sry if im sort of a nube and sry if this thread is dead but whatever.

None of that is true although most 2 piece barrels are better than 1 piece barrels.

[Streaks]

Well, it's all relevant really. For ranges under a hundred feet, anything will do and they are actually about even. But if you longball at 100+ feet, then one piece barrels will win.

Also, it depends on what pressure your marker uses. If it is a standard/high pressure setup, then you don't get much advantage from a one piece unit other than better efficiency (less gas consumption). A low pressure marker will make the best use of a one piece barrel.

But honestly that is all moot. What it boils down to is how much uninterrupted bore the ball passes through before it hits a section with ports. Go look at any two piece barrel made, the unported sections will be at MOST, 7". Look at any one piece, your talking 7-10" of unported barrel.

Also, on a two piece barrel, the front or "tip" makes _NO CONTACT_ with the ball, at all. None, what-so-ever (I guess it might if your rounds soak up a TON of moisture, but then you shouldn't be shooting them should you? :D ). SO, you have only the back unit that is making contact with the ball. For this reason, the section of _any_ barrel that has unported contact with the ball is called the "control bore"

On a system with high/standard pressure, you only really need about 8" of control bore to get the ball fully stabalized, some would argue less and they may be right, but the standard is 6-8".

On a system running lower pressure, the ball takes longer to accellerate and so you need a greater control bore. 10-12" is idea (depending on your setup), for this.

Now, the whole bit about the front adding accuracy is bunk IMO. It DOES have a good use........reducing noise! But that's _IT_, I don't CARE what the manufacturers hype things out to be, the tip is nothing but a _huge_ flash suppressor that helps quiet the marker down.

The best thing to do, no matter WHAT barrel you use, is to ensure you have a proper paint to barrel match. Once you have that, then any barrel you pick up will start "magically" shooting better ;) Shoot paint that's too small and it'll hook and curve. Shoot paint that's too big and it'll try to blow out in the bore or shoot hot.





Streaks: who's boss just got in so he has to dash :D

[SgtPepper]

Originally posted by high adjucator
ph yes and by the time the paintbal leaves the barrel it is traveling about 250 fps and doesnt lose speed untill about halfway through its flight. (thats proves what you said)

well, in a vacum the ball would never lose speed and technically in our system gravity isnt affecting its horizontal velocity, so it keeps going the same speed until it hits the ground thanks to vertical acceleartion (gravity).

right? wrong.
thanks to a little thing called wind resistance, ie friction.
as a result, the ball is technically slowing down from the moment it stops its forward acceleration--when the gas is no longer propelling it forward or generally the moment it leaves the barrel


:D

[Streaks]

[i]
thanks to a little thing called wind resistance, ie friction.
as a result, the ball is technically slowing down from the moment it stops its forward acceleration--when the gas is no longer propelling it forward or generally the moment it leaves the barrel


:D [/B]




^^^^^^^ !!!!!!!!!!!!



What he said :) And if that doesn't boggle your mind, the same rule is true for every kind of projectile. So even rifle bullets, pistol bullets, TANK rounds, etc etc :)

[p8ntballer77]

i have a few questions after reading all that ...:eyes: :confused: on my piranha (e-force ext) barrel it goes to a bigger bore after like 7in and on my freak it has only 5 in. of bore (the inserts )to accelerate. the total length of my freak is a little over 15 in and it has the aa front but i tried my friend's dad's very small tear drop front and it was so much more accurate. also same as the piranha barrel why do they go from the small bore to big other then for acceleration. one more thing i can see a longer barrel may be better like on a one piece but how about on a freak since it only has 5 in long inserts for acceleration and the longer front would mess things up. so IMO and experience the shorter front for a freak is better if any one can give me some knowledge on it ill appreciate it .. thanks to everyone for there knowledge... i can now go prove all those big bad people at the fields wrong about barrels now.
;)


Matt:crazy:

[p8ntballer77]

im srry guys for the double post but how come they say closed bolt markers are more accurate then open bolts beacuse im thinking of getting a shocker.. thanks again and srry for the double


matt

[Empyre]

...this thread might've been stickied if it wasn't for the 100 some odd responses it had...

[CoolT]

Originally posted by p8ntballer77
i have a few questions after reading all that ...:eyes: :confused: on my piranha (e-force ext) barrel it goes to a bigger bore after like 7in and on my freak it has only 5 in. of bore (the inserts )to accelerate. the total length of my freak is a little over 15 in and it has the aa front but i tried my friend's dad's very small tear drop front and it was so much more accurate. also same as the piranha barrel why do they go from the small bore to big other then for acceleration. one more thing i can see a longer barrel may be better like on a one piece but how about on a freak since it only has 5 in long inserts for acceleration and the longer front would mess things up. so IMO and experience the shorter front for a freak is better if any one can give me some knowledge on it ill appreciate it .. thanks to everyone for there knowledge... i can now go prove all those big bad people at the fields wrong about barrels now.
;)


Matt:crazy:

Learn to type, spell, and form sentences before you make a thread with that.

Originally posted by p8ntballer77
im srry guys for the double post but how come they say closed bolt markers are more accurate then open bolts beacuse im thinking of getting a shocker.. thanks again and srry for the double


matt

It's a myth that closed bolt guns are more accurate than open bolt markers, they both shoot the same.

Originally posted by Empyre
...this thread might've been stickied if it wasn't for the 100 some odd responses it had...

It is in the stickies.

Now, stop posting. This thread is in the stickies for a reason, it doesn't need useless clutter at the end with stupid comments and questions. If you have a question, make a new thread on it.

[Streaks]

Originally posted by p8ntballer77
i have a few questions after reading all that ...:eyes: :confused: on my piranha (e-force ext) barrel it goes to a bigger bore after like 7in and on my freak it has only 5 in. of bore (the inserts )to accelerate. the total length of my freak is a little over 15 in and it has the aa front but i tried my friend's dad's very small tear drop front and it was so much more accurate. also same as the piranha barrel why do they go from the small bore to big other then for acceleration. one more thing i can see a longer barrel may be better like on a one piece but how about on a freak since it only has 5 in long inserts for acceleration and the longer front would mess things up. so IMO and experience the shorter front for a freak is better if any one can give me some knowledge on it ill appreciate it .. thanks to everyone for there knowledge... i can now go prove all those big bad people at the fields wrong about barrels now.
;)


Matt:crazy:



The 5" back unit is the control bore, it's what causes the ball to accellerate. Once it leaves that section and starts into the "tip", the ball is actually in free flight and starting to slow down (i.e. it isn't TOUCHING anything). It's like this for ANY two piece that uses a larger bore (show me one that doesn't).

For most speedball ranges, 5-8" is all one needs for length in a control bore, so the two piece units work just fine. I shoot at a lot longer ranges, and I use a lower pressure marker. So I like having a longer control bore to get full accelleration, AND more stability by allowing the ball to be in contact with the bore for a longer time. I use Lapco one piece barrels (PicoShot, MicroShot, AutoSpirit, BigShot, and MegaShot(coming soon)), this way I have all the calibers covered :)

All the "tips" do is help to reduce muzzle report and to help bleed gas away from the front and back of the ball as it travels. This does help in accuracy to an extent. But mostly it's just to make the marker have a softer report IMO.

[p8ntballer77]

thanks streaks.. cool tNow, stop posting. This thread is in the stickies for a reason, it doesn't need useless clutter at the end with stupid comments and questions. If you have a question, make a new thread on it. well you just contributed to the stupid comments with that one and all my spelling is perfect its called spell check buddy everything in my last post was spelled right... apparently streaks understood what i asked.

[Streaks]

I think the grammar that upset him more than any spelling :) Some people have a big pet peeve with that sorta thing. *shrugs*

[triniman]

i really like what you guys are saying. But...
I would like to know an ideal barrel for a sniper/very barrel. Just tell me pros and cons etc. It should be under $150. And is O2 better than CO2 and N2. Also do we need to instal a system for an O2 tank.

[reneirwolf878]

Originally posted by triniman
i really like what you guys are saying. But...
I would like to know an ideal barrel for a sniper/very barrel. Just tell me pros and cons etc. It should be under $150. And is O2 better than CO2 and N2. Also do we need to instal a system for an O2 tank. Sniper/very barrel? I'll go ahead and say that there is no such thing as a sniper barrel. Pick a barrel that you like the looks of somewhere between the lengths of 12"-16". I'm going to recommend a 16" since you want to "sharpshoot" and that should be long enough to poke through bushes and shurbs.

As for the very barrel, I think you should look at what you typed.

As for the gas questions:

My chemistry is rough but isn't O2 just oxygen? They don't fill tanks with pure oxygen because oxygen goes boom.

And the very last question you wrote makes no sense. Rewrite them and then post in the correct forum this time.

[Streaks]

What marker do you have?
What brand of paint do you shoot most?


As for barrels that give superb long range accuracy, I reccomend Lapco one piece barrels. They make several bore sizes that you need to match up to your paint.

BigShot = .689"
AutoSpirit = .687"
MicroShot = .684"

Accuracy at range is the biproduct of a consistant marker (a good regulator, high flowing parts, etc), and a proper paint to barrel match, as well as quality paint and steady hands.

A barrel with as much unported control bore helps as well. And this is were Lapco's shine.

Don't just buy the largest bore you can and then use the "it'll feed anything!" theory, ya that's great if you ever only shoot at 30-60' away :rolleyes: But if you want to be able to say, drill a 2x4 for 7 out of 10 shots at 130'? Then get a Lapco and feed it properly matched paint. :)


I can't believe this thread is still around! :D