Ever wonder how much liquid is in a co2 tank?

[thunderpig]

Well, wonder no more.

x-rays of tank:

http://cleedo.com/tankxray4.jpg

http://cleedo.com/tankxray2.jpg


Heluva lot more than I thought. Looks to be about 90%, if not more.


Props to Hellbore at the Tinker's Guild.

[JGAC]

Should take some of it laying on the side to show the proper action of the A/S

[OWNAGE]

Originally posted by JGAC
Should take some of it laying on the side to show the proper action of the A/S
but other than that, is shows why people NEED to get their co2 tanks A/Sed

[un4givnpb]

wow i thought it was like 60-75%

[thunderpig]

Originally posted by SpyderOWNAGE

but other than that, is shows why people NEED to get their co2 tanks A/Sed
Oye, does it ever!

[Sniper15]

Wow, I had no idea there was that much liquid in the tank. I'm glad I don't have to deal with co2 anymore...

[xXniTemAreXx]

^ same here ^

[dog-of-Dislexia]

Thundy is pregnant with a co2 bottle. Who's the father, a 68/45?

[clown_13_2001]

OMFG, never knew it was that much. Nice find, thundy.

[Tipp98WhisperEx]

Originally posted by thunderpig
http://cleedo.com/tankxray2.jpg

Wtf? Is that the moon over in the corner?!?! Did he shoot the canister into space before he x-rayed it?

[E r y k]

ur joking right? its a coin...:eyes:

[Tipp98WhisperEx]

Oh hahahaha! I see! Its a penny!

C'mon... Seriuosly... It does sorta look like outer-space. The penny is the moon, and all the white flecks are stars!


















I'm gunna shut up now...

[thunderpig]

Originally posted by E r y k
ur joking right? its a coin...:eyes:
ahahahaha. holy crap, it is! At first look, I thought it was like, a moon too..
Originally posted by dog-of-Dislexia
Thundy is pregnant with a co2 bottle. Who's the father, a 68/45?
Cem on... too small for my tastes. I like 'em big.

It was a scuba.:(

[PBallWonder]

ha ha ha! i thought it was the moon too! thats pretty neat! but how does the A/S supposed to keep the liquid out when its compleatly submerged in it? Who did it? and how many millions of dollars did those 2 x rays cost?

[Sniper15]

Originally posted by PBallWonder
but how does the A/S supposed to keep the liquid out when its compleatly submerged in it? When the tank is attached horizontally, the air pocket leaves the A/S tube uncovered.

[thunderpig]

Originally posted by PBallWonder
Who did it? and how many millions of dollars did those 2 x rays cost?
Hellbore of the Tinker's Guild, as I said in my post.

They probably didn't cost much if anything at all. X-rays aren't super expensive, or anything. :eyes:

[JGAC]

Originally posted by thunderpig

They probably didn't cost much if anything at all. X-rays aren't super expensive, or anything. :eyes: Unless he bought the machine.....

[GranDream]

So THAT explains why they're so heavy:rolleyes:

[sain]

Im guessing that he has access to an xray machines; seeing how he x-rayed a autococker as well.

[UTLadiesMan]

So, if it's a coin (which it certainly appears to be), how is it floating up there while the tank is obviously standing up?

Also, I would think that the outside of the tank would be a bit thicker than that and would be considerably lighter on the picture.

[sain]

The only logical explanition would be that the tank is laying down.

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by sain
The only logical explanition would be that the tank is laying down.

However, the liquid is standing up, with the air pocket at the top.

[mokalman]

UT, you have now officially confuzzled me. I know what you're talking about, I just have no idea how it would work.

[foofighter#0]

The line that you "smart people" claim as the CO2 fill line, is not the CO2. That's the part of the tank that is thicker. I fill my own tanks.
The Liquid CO2 takes up only half or less of the tank. It's so the anti-siphon tube can remain out of the liquid when the tank has been filled.
Now back to the line thingy. Right there is the result when they forge the tank, because they have to shrink the tube for the top dome part.
You cannot see liquid or gaseous C02 with an X-Ray.
Never the less, cool pic.;)
edit* that space is not an air pocket, you can't see gasses with an x-ray.

[JGAC]

Well if we can't see it......I demand a new photo!:laugh:

[foofighter#0]

Well if we can't see it......I demand a new photo!
I know how I could et a pic that shows the actual CO2 in the tank ans still be real.

[Canadia_PBaller]

No....not at all.

[thunderpig]

Originally posted by Canadia_PBaller
No....not at all.
Yay!

[E r y k]

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan
So, if it's a coin (which it certainly appears to be), how is it floating up there while the tank is obviously standing up?

Also, I would think that the outside of the tank would be a bit thicker than that and would be considerably lighter on the picture.

the only thing i can think of is that the tank valve is resting on something since it is significantly whiter than the other parts... so the tank is kinda slanted creating the pocket of air... kinda hard to explain.

[dubis07]

ALL OF MY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWER NOW! I AM COMPLETE THANKS TO THE GREAT THUNDERPIG!!!

[UTLadiesMan]

You can see liquids with x-rays. The elements in CO2 just aren't as heavy so there's less differences. (like, when you get your chest x-rayed you can still see the flesh and organs, it's all just not as clearly white)

Also, in the first pic, the bottle is tilted, yet the liquid is not. Still, I don't see how the aluminum from the bottle isn't blocking more of the x-rays than it is.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

That "air pocket" is nothing more than the shape of the tank. A CO2 tank should be 60% gas, 40% liquid.

And if that penny is flat and not taped to somthing, that would mean the tank is lying down. The liquid would spread out, and cover the whole tank. I find the pics inconclusive.

[STO Balla 22]

Yeah, it seems to me that even if it was liquid the air pocket wouldn't be big enough for the antisiphon tube to do anything.

[UTLadiesMan]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/goto?forumid=9013

Go down to... well, currently post #39. If you just do a ctrl-f for "rays" you'll see it. They've already talked about it a bit, and he (the one that made the x-ray) clearly says it was the liquid line.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

From Catalina Cylinders' webpage:
A 20-ounce CO2 paintball cylinder with a full charge (68% of its water capacity) When a fully charged, 68% full by water capacity, 20-ounce CO2 cylinder warms up to room temperature (70 oF), the pressure inside the cylinder is 837 psi. When the cylinder reaches 87.9 oF the entire charge becomes a gas no matter what the pressure. A fully charged CO2 cylinder at 87.9 oF will have an internal pressure of approximately 1100psi. At 120 oF a fully charged CO2 cylinder will have an internal pressure of nearly 2000 psi, this is greater than the designed service pressure of 1800 psi of the cylinder. Remember that this cylinder at 120 oF has an internal pressure greater than the marked service pressure of the cylinder and is properly filled, not overfilled. Also note that 120 oF is not an excess temperature and can quite easily be reached in many different environments (i.e. in a shed or a vehicle on a hot day or in a kitchen).

"...With a full charge (68% of its water capacity)"
Meaning 68% of it should be filled with liquid. I just had my numbers switched and was off by 8%.......

It also mentions that overfilling a 7oz to 95% capacity would be only adding 2.8 more ounces. So the line might be in different places for different sized tanks. What size was the tank anyway? Either the guy's tank was overfilled, or the pictures are inconclusive.

http://www.catalinacylinders.com/
Tech support > CO2 Cylinder Market > Dangers of overfilling a Paintball Cylinder

[clown_13_2001]

Originally posted by LAMANTEthePBguy
From Catalina Cylinders' webpage:


"...With a full charge (68% of its water capacity)"
Meaning 68% of it should be filled with liquid. I just had my numbers switched and was off by 8%.......

It also mentions that overfilling a 7oz to 95% capacity would be only adding 2.8 more ounces. So the line might be in different places for different sized tanks. What size was the tank anyway? Either the guy's tank was overfilled, or the pictures are inconclusive.

http://www.catalinacylinders.com/
Tech support > CO2 Cylinder Market > Dangers of overfilling a Paintball Cylinder

Nice find, lamante:blah: . I also think the x-rays were inconclusive.

[FirstAgentSmith]

and if it wasnt for that damned penny no one would be questioning the xrays.

[Magnus55]

I always thought that when co2 is in it's liquid (or partially liquid) form it would be interspersed between the gas molecules as liquid vapor, like mist, rather than having it all collected at the bottom or at the side according to the laws of gravity. Everyone is expecting to see a line, like the way a can of pepsi would look if you drank some of it and x-rayed it trying to see just how much pepsi is left, but because of the compressed conditions of the tank, wouldn't the liquid be evenly spread out and distributed, therefore you wouldn't be able to actually see it except as a whole within the tank?

Think about it, if all the liquid co2 collected in your tank at the bottom or at the side according to how you were holding it, wouldn't you hear it sloshing around?

Just my thoughts.

[Ghost2867]

honestly magnus, i thought the exact same thing...:|

[FirstAgentSmith]

yes but the liquid co2 is heavy then the gas form thereforth it sinks towards and collects at the bottom, or at least i think thats how it works

[UTLadiesMan]

Think of it this way, the ocean is pressurized. Granted air pressure at sea level isn't nearly at the same level, but the water is denser. Liquid CO2 is denser than gas CO2 and will thus collect at the bottom.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by Magnus55
I always thought that when co2 is in it's liquid (or partially liquid) form it would be interspersed between the gas molecules as liquid vapor, like mist, rather than having it all collected at the bottom or at the side according to the laws of gravity. Everyone is expecting to see a line, like the way a can of pepsi would look if you drank some of it and x-rayed it trying to see just how much pepsi is left, but because of the compressed conditions of the tank, wouldn't the liquid be evenly spread out and distributed, therefore you wouldn't be able to actually see it except as a whole within the tank?

Think about it, if all the liquid co2 collected in your tank at the bottom or at the side according to how you were holding it, wouldn't you hear it sloshing around?

Just my thoughts. I think that makes the most sense. I don't think it would be a total mixture though. I think there would be a gradual change in the liquid to vapor. Something you probably couldn't pick up on the x ray.

Another thing to take into consideration is temperature. At 87°F, all the liquid in the tank has vaporized into a gas. I haven't been in an X ray room that often, but what I do remember is that they aren't the coolest places.

[UTLadiesMan]

While the math on that seems right, something else about it seems wrong. I've played a number of times when the needle hits the triple digits and I've only seen two burst disks blow. (both of which were laying on the ground in the sun at the time)

Also, there never seemed to be a shortage of shots and only a marginal increase of velocity.

If it really hit 1100psi at 88*, it should have been well over the burst disk at 100* PLUS it would be so much more pressure than the CO2 tank assumed 800 that there would be gun breakage and people getting hurt by hot shots all over the place. (none of which happened) Quite likely, the internal temperature wasn't as high to begin with but after an hour or two it would definately get there.

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

I ripped those numbers from Catalina's site. I could have interpreted it wrong though. Here:
Dangers of Overfilling CO2 Paintball Cylinders
1. A 20-ounce CO2 paintball cylinder with a full charge (68% of its water capacity) When a fully charged, 68% full by water capacity, 20-ounce CO2 cylinder warms up to room temperature (70 oF), the pressure inside the cylinder is 837 psi. When the cylinder reaches 87.9 oF the entire charge becomes a gas no matter what the pressure. A fully charged CO2 cylinder at 87.9 oF will have an internal pressure of approximately 1100 psi. At 120 oF a fully charged CO2 cylinder will have an internal pressure of nearly 2000 psi, this is greater than the designed service pressure of 1800 psi of the cylinder. Remember that this cylinder at 120 oF has an internal pressure greater than the marked service pressure of the cylinder and is properly filled, not overfilled. Also note that 120 oF is not an excess temperature and can quite easily be reached in many different environments (i.e. in a shed or a vehicle on a hot day or in a kitchen).

2. A 20-ounce CO2 paintball cylinder with a 5-ounce overfill (85% of its water capacity) The following would occur if a 20-ounce CO2 cylinder were slightly overfilled with 25 ounces of CO2 charge to increase its service life between fills. When the cylinder and charge warm to room temperature the internal pressure of the cylinder would be 1430 psi. If the cylinder were warmed to 103 oF the cylinder would vent through the safety device of the valve. This venting would most likely be unexpected since it would not be known when the cylinder would warm to 103 oF. Unexpected venting through the safety device of a valve has caused property damage and personal injury.

3.A 20-ounce CO2 paintball cylinder greatly overfilled (95% of its water capacity) A 20-ounce CO2 cylinder filled to 95% of it's capacity, not quite liquid full would vent through its safety prior to the cylinder reaching room temperature, 70 oF. If the safety disc has been altered and reinforced and would not actuate, the cylinder would rupture between 85 o - 95 oF. Rupturing cylinders have caused severe property damage and serious personal injury, even loss of life.http://www.catalinacylinders.com/

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan
If it really hit 1100psi at 88*, it should have been well over the burst disk at 100* PLUS it would be so much more pressure than the CO2 tank assumed 800 that there would be gun breakage and people getting hurt by hot shots all over the place. (none of which happened) Quite likely, the internal temperature wasn't as high to begin with but after an hour or two it would definately get there. Actually, once the pressure gets so high, it actually decreases the velocity of the gun. This is due to the valve closing prematurely because of all the pressure behind it. If you were to graph pressure vs. velocity, it would make a bell curve. When you sweetspot a reg, you are looking to get your gun situated on top of that curve. Also, burst disks are rated at 1800psi (they should be at least, sometimes 3k ones are used instead). If the tank was to get into the triple digits, it would not neccasarily have to get to a pressure greater that 1800psi.

[Ghost2867]

Originally posted by LAMANTEthePBguy
I think that makes the most sense. I don't think it would be a total mixture though. I think there would be a gradual change in the liquid to vapor. Something you probably couldn't pick up on the x ray.


that makes the most sense considering it also explains the purpose of anti-syphons

[thunderpig]

Not the kind of thread I inteded, but yeah...


erm... cool pics, eh?

[JGAC]

Originally posted by thunderpig
Not the kind of thread I inteded, but yeah...


erm... cool pics, eh? Cool, yes.

[4THDEGREE]

Folks,

There is a lot of thoughts and conjecture going on in here. let me see if I can help out a bit.

Co2 has a few critical facts. One it that CO2 can exist as a liquid below the temperature of 87.9 degrees F. The triple point for CO2 is -69.9 degrees F (the point at which a chemical may exist as either gas, liquid or solid form).

Pressure and temperature have a significant interaction concerning compressed gas cylinders. However when CO2 excceeds the critical temperature of 87.9 degrees, it cannot exist as a liquid regardless of pressure. (the relationship of pressure/temperature becomes much more significant and dangerous as a safety factor when dealing with air systems.)

The last critical number carbon dioxide is 125 degrees F. This is a critical temperature for non-refrigerated storage containers (tanks) Which should give some insight to UTladiesman why the rupture disks blew while the tanks were laying in the sun.

This is by no means a comprehensive dissertation on carbon dioxide but I hope it helps a little. As someone who has investigated deaths within the compressed gas industry we should all be careful and understand the power of these containers. Maybe someday I will tell you the story about the guy who decided to build a jet boat by strapping a high pressure cylinder to the back of a 14' jon boat and having his buddy knock the valve off with a sledge hammer.......

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by 4THDEGREE
Maybe someday I will tell you the story about the guy who decided to build a jet boat by strapping a high pressure cylinder to the back of a 14' jon boat and having his buddy knock the valve off with a sledge hammer....... Please tell:)

All I remember about compressed gases is if a 68/3000 tank were to explode under a locomotive, it would send it 17 stories in the air.

[Ghost2867]

is 68ci enough to do that?

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by LAMANTEthePBguy
Actually, once the pressure gets so high, it actually decreases the velocity of the gun. This is due to the valve closing prematurely because of all the pressure behind it. If you were to graph pressure vs. velocity, it would make a bell curve. When you sweetspot a reg, you are looking to get your gun situated on top of that curve.


Only to a point. Now I've only done this with cockers but I have done it quite a lot. When you increase the pressure the fps keeps going up until it hits that top level off point. Then it levels off a bit and dips, then raises again. This 'level and dip' point is usually only 10psi or so wide. After that it starts going up again, albeit inefficiently as the valve is being slammed shut. I call this the brute force section, as it wins out by brute force alone. Obviously, it eventually has to level again as the valve becomes unopenable. (wow, new word. :))

[LAMANTEthePBguy]

Originally posted by UTLadiesMan
Only to a point. Now I've only done this with cockers but I have done it quite a lot. When you increase the pressure the fps keeps going up until it hits that top level off point. Then it levels off a bit and dips, then raises again. This 'level and dip' point is usually only 10psi or so wide. After that it starts going up again, albeit inefficiently as the valve is being slammed shut. I call this the brute force section, as it wins out by brute force alone. Obviously, it eventually has to level again as the valve becomes unopenable. (wow, new word. :)) Whatever it is, its probably a mixture of both of what we said. But yes, hot shots are a problem. Most feilds re-chrony CO2 users a few times throughout the day if its hot out, and if they don't they should.

Ghost- I heard it from Bourne, and with what little physics I know, it seems quite likely to happen. You can ask him if you want confirmation.