Low Pressure Testing... Bolts...

[PHiuR]

just thought this is interesting... thats why im not gonna mod my stock venturi bolt :)


http://www.pdpaintball.com/bolt_Test.htm

[DasBaldDog]

That is a rather biased and misleading test.

One thing, it makes it sound like it applies to all guns and all bolts. When a Pirahna (while being a good gun) functions NOT at all like a Shocker (in which a Delrin bolt is the BEST bolt you can get). Also, Delrin has to be "broken in" at first. It will not give its best performance in the beginning of its life.

Another thing is misleads is the fact it does not give good descriptions of the testing situation. It does not give wind speed, type of tank, gas, and valve used. What the elevation, temperature and barametric pressure is (and yes, it makes a GREAT difference in performance, ex. Colordado and Tennessee)

Delrin is NOT a good material to use on Co2 if there is ANY liquid co2 in the gun. It's also not the best material to use on a gun using a pin valve (as they have slightly slower recharge rates.

Of COURSE a Venturi bolt is not as good for LP, the air is split up and losed a bit of energy when it is.

Another point, a Open bolt are not as good guns when running LP because it is harder to make an open bolt LP.

If I were to get +-6 on a Spyder or Tippmann, I would be fanatical. They make it sound like its horrible.

They do mention that they used a regulator but it doesn't mention Co2 or nitro (which c02 if not put through an expansion chamber or anti-syphon, would create a great difference)

In my 8+ years of paintball playing, I have NEVER seen a stock bolt on ANY gun, with ANY gas system, shoot +-2 consistantly.

I'm doing my best to be objective but whoever did this article set out to prove a single point and in a questionable manner. I am suspiscious of this article and whoever wrote it. I find nothing about this article, except the fact that Venturi bolts are not as good for LP, that is credible.

If you want to believe it (I'm not point fingers at anyone, and I apologize to PHiuR if I am offending him by posting this) then go ahead. It doesn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

I just hope that if a website makes a page saying "Shooting paintballs through a Ram-Rod makes for great accuracy" then I hope that no one believes it. Some things are false from any angle.

Before you write to blast me for my expierenced opinions, these are just expierenced opinions in which I believe VERY strongly about. I do not think this test was done fairly and unbiased.

Some of it makes me wonder if it was done at all.

[Paint Bulley]

I didn't read the thing, I just looked at the tables. I think those make sense. Anyone find anything wrong with those?

[UTLadiesMan]

I don't know if they got results fairly, but they sure as hell don't know how to show data. You can't show deviation like that, you should use standard deviation.

Also, if you were testing efficiency, you should determine what psi makes it shoot a certain fps, not what fps you get out of a certain psi.

[Lord Delta]

Originally posted by DasBaldDog


....Of COURSE a Venturi bolt is not as good for LP, the air is split up and losed a bit of energy when it is.....


There is something called the venturi effect that my geography teacher mentioned (stop laughing and listen) In mountain passes where the valley is shaped like a V (and most of them are) The wind coming through the pass is forced to accelerate because on one side of the mountains there are no obstructions then the wind is forced through a smaller space (the pass) in order for the wind to pass through it accelerates. An example that helps illustrate this is what happens when you stick your thumb on the end of a garden hose the water is now going through a smaller area and pressure buids up making the water come out faster. Now, the venturi on a paintball markers' bolt might be too small for the venturi effect to occur but if it wasn't then in theory a ventury would be good for LP because it would push the ball faster at a lower pressure.

I don't have my phd in venturi physics yet but this kinda makes sense doesn't it?:eyes:

[DasBaldDog]

You're halfway correct. There is the venturi effect and theoretically it would work like you said but there is a slight problem. Einstein said "Energy is neither created nor destroyed but merely transferred." If the air being split up was gaining more energy, where is it coming from? The venturi effect would give the air more speed, but transfer energy from power.

As per my quote, I misspoke. The air wouldn't lose energy so much as transfer a bit into the bolt, itself.

[pr0kch0p]

baldy, they were using a chrome PMI inline regulator. another reason why i agree with you.

The Piranha used to for testing was a new BL Vertical Feed G3 that was Low Pressured using a Chrome Pure Energy Regulator, PMI turbo valve, ported out ASA, machined Low Pressure cell (it was one of those fake ones), and Chameleon main spring. It was tuned for 285-290 feet per second using the stock single hole bolt, and achieved an operating pressure of approximately 325psi.


i really doubt those numbers are correct, people with blowbacks think too much that their markers will be as good as higher-end markers with a few mods.

[Ebonclaw]

Get back to me with that comment after you've been shot with 14 BPS out of my Spyder.

[elTwitcho]

Yeah OK Ebon, and when you come back from fantasy land, you give me a shout too.

Getting back on topic though, I'm not entirely sure what's up with that test. Those numbers go against pretty much everything every other test has had.

And on another note, open face 1 hole bolts are actually the ideal setup for a low pressure marker. Most times when you replace a venturi bolt with an open face bolt you get an increase of about 30 fps, not the other way around. Look at all the bolts for any low pressure gun and you see this.

Intimidator from Bob long or Mountain Paintball or stock - Open face

Just about any bolt for the bushmaster- Open Face

Almost any and all angel Bolts - Open Face

Low Pressure cocker bolts - Open face

The physics work in that the air is able to pass through the open face bolt more easily than a venturi. Think of it as trying to blow on a paintball and sending it across the table using a straw, or the little 2 hole cofee stirrers. It's alot easier with the larger straw than it is with the cofee stirrer, even though the air technically is going faster when it passes through the cofee stirrer

[PHiuR]

heh DasBaldDog i dont mind... it doesnt matter what ya say.. ive been reading posts about lp setups and crap.. and tehy all say what you say.. (kind of) open faced bolt is best..

im just sharing info i found... and its not good now that i see it because it doesnt state alot of stuff...

[Ebonclaw]

Ok, if open faced is the best (and I'm not saying it's not) why the heck do we even HAVE venturi bolts? And what about Starfire bolts? Are they any better?

[Richy_C]

Venturi bolt= No product sells more and does less=marketing scam.

[DasBaldDog]

Because Venturi bolts are nicer on paint at higher pressures.

I agree with everyone saying that open faced bolts are better for LP.

I was just listing my theories on why I think that test is a load of poo.

The biggest one............+-2 on a blowback marker using a PE reg, nothing against Pirahna or PE but something is major wrong with that statement. A MAxflow can't even do that.

[Ebonclaw]

So my electro Shutter is running at about 500 psi. Should I remove the venturi?

[DasBaldDog]

Nope. Venturi is fine at medium pressures.

[Ebonclaw]

Cool, thanks Das.
BTW, I have an interesting problem with my Shutter. When I put the tight spring from the 32 degrees spring kit in, I can get the pressure down to about 200-300 psi. However, I run into sputtering, but only when shooting nitro. My field says I need to buy a LP valve, but if I use CO2, it works fine, it's just not as consistent. What's up and what kind of LP valve will fit a Shutter, because I know there's a popular choice out there that fits all Spyder BUT the Shutter.

[DasBaldDog]

It sputters because it's not getting enough gas flow running that low. The reason Co2 works is because liquid is being sucked into the gun system and expands there (ie the same amount of volume but greater potential in unexpanded co2).

I'm not sure if a LP valve would work on a Spyder because I don't have that much of expierence with LP Spyders.

[Richy_C]

No matter what your guage is telling you, you are running higher pressure on CO2, a little pressurized liquid gets in there, and raises the pressure, where as with nitro, it won't act like that, since it isn't liquid.


(was that right?)

[DasBaldDog]

Yes Richy. Mucho Righto

[Ebonclaw]

Ahh....it all makes sense to me now......
So does anyone know about what kind of valve I should buy? I'll go post a thread in the Kingman forum, I've gotten a little off topic here.

[Richy_C]

Any will do, pretty much, just go with a well known brand.