bkoers

[dragun1217]

who i this forum has a abko and if u do are they fast or slow and overrated

[[Infusion]BigC]

They all shoot the same speed with a board that goes over 20 bps.

The mech cap is 18, so that's what they're gonna shoot.

[rock]

ive got the 04, but it wont let me vote so ill just tell ya. its fast enough, i got the trigger set the way i want it and i think i can get about 10 bps of it stock. so there, its fast....

[ShorTi]

You can get 10 BSP but the max is 18-20.

[bko999]

Originally posted by [Infusion]BigC
They all shoot the same speed with a board that goes over 20 bps.

The mech cap is 18, so that's what they're gonna shoot.

Wrong. Mech cap is 20. Proven time and time again with goldwave. Dont believe me? Check out pleeairsmith.tk and watch his bko go.

[rock]

dude, its a 2bps diference. and who really cares most people cant go that fast with out bounce....

[bko999]

Its not about the 2bps diff. Its about the fact that its false information.

[puck2paint]

BKO9999 is right, it is somewhere between 19-21 bps cap. it really isnt needed to be able to shoot faster, because it is probably humanly impossible to shoot 25 bps. its fast IMO

[ShootPaint]

Originally posted by bko999


Wrong. Mech cap is 20. Proven time and time again with goldwave. Dont believe me? Check out pleeairsmith.tk and watch his bko go.

A Sound wave means nothing. To prove that the marker can cycle this quick you need to run paint through it.

You could probably get the BKO to cycle upwards of 25cps but that doesnt mean you can load paint into the marker. If the bolt doesnt return all the way and you cycle the marker before you can load a ball in it then I would say that is a mechanical failure and that the next lowest number that you could shoot paint from the marker would be its mechanical limits.

With that being said the mechanical cap is set on the BKO based on two factors. The main factor being the solenoid. The Parker solenoid it only suppose to cycle 18 time/sec. This is per ICD. The next problem is the spring return. The spring is suppose to recock the marker upwards of 17-25 times/sec, again this info is per ICD.

Granted most BKO's can cycle 20 bps but not all of them. This is the reason that ICD states the mechanical cap to be 18 bps.

So the statement earlier saying the mechanical cap is 18bps is correct.

Now anyone can take their marker and preform some minor upgrades and mods that will allow the marker to cycle upwards of 20 bps but not all are going to be able to do this stock and since most people cant pull a trigger faster than 13-15 bps why does it truely matter if the mechanical cap is 18 or 20 cps???

If you dont believe what I say just find someone with a E-Blade cocker. Have them set it up to run 30 cps. The marker will sound like it is firing but I will lay money on it that you cant load a ball into the marker.

[Spinach]

I got 17bps on mine so no. Thier not slow.

[[Infusion]BigC]

Originally posted by bko999


Wrong. Mech cap is 20. Proven time and time again with goldwave. Dont believe me? Check out pleeairsmith.tk and watch his bko go.

I will slap you in the face.

Do not ever correct me.

The estimated cap is between 17-20bps. It varies between markers.

Get outa here.

[ShorTi]

BKO999, First off, the mech cap from factory is 18, get it straight. Yes it goes over 18 but 18 is the factory cap. Second, dont come into here and look like a big shot, your just making yourself look like a idiot.

[lotus_esprit5]

aight guys simmer down.

BKO999, plz dont make an *****-hole of yourself. you werent entirely right, but thats no big deal nobody's perfect, i think ppl are just angry about the way you said it.

Everyone else, plz dont make an *****-hole of him. He's only got like 27 posts, cut him some slack.

we're trying to exchange information, not flames.

[bko999]

Okay I write like 5 sentences and thats the post that gets everybody pissed. I am an idot and a wise *** becuase of five sentences? I know lots about BKO's, and wasnt trying to be "all wise and powerful"...
Now let me be clear, I am not trying to be a J***@** or stuck up, i am not like that.

ShootPaint - These are two quotes direclty from ICDownersgroup.com "In the BKO, the solenoid is made by Humphrey. It's a 2 way which means it's either off or on. This solenoid is off normally and then on when it gets the signal from the circuit board. The solenoid attaches to the ram assembly with two screws with a gasket between the solenoid and the ram. When it's told to, it sends pressure from the LPR through to the ram cylinder making it go forward." -and- "The BKO solenoid has been tested up around 20 cycles per second with no problems."

You said you could probly get a BKO to cycle 25 times persecond, but then that the noid from the factory actuates 18 times a second. Is there and aftermarket noid i'm missing that ups the cycles?, because i dont see how an 18cps noid can be modded to do 25cps.

"Granted most BKO's can cycle 20 bps but not all of them. This is the reason that ICD states the mechanical cap to be 18 bps.

So the statement earlier saying the mechanical cap is 18bps is correct." Now if most BKO's can cycle 20 bps, than how can your next statment about 18bps per second be fully correct? I feel that your condradicting yourself.

And how can sound wave testing mean nothing? The only major differnece between dryfiring and shooting with paint is the load on the forward motion of the ram. The backward action (controlled by the spring) has no difference in motion wether your dry firing or firing with paint. Now I respect your information from ICD, after all they created the marker. I've talked personally with TANK from tantrumpaintball.com and he said himself that the noid actuates at least 20 times a sec. Patleemans BKO DID do 20 cycles per second w/o paint so thats hard evidence for anyone to observe that the noid does at least 20 cycles per sec. I've also emailed patleeman, and he said that he had done NO modifications to the noid OR ram, to make the gun cycle faster. Like i said B4, It doesnt matter about the 2cps difference, its about the fact that the BKO can cycle at least 20cps w/o paint.

At this point, I've proved the noid to cycle at least 20 times a sec. The backward motion of the ram can go from fully extend to fully retracted in at least 20 times a sec too. Like i said this motion makes no difference wether there is paint in the gun or not. Why?, because chambering and shooting a pb will not slow down that *backward* motion. Finally, the last thing that will prevent the BKO from 20cps w/paint would be the forward motion of the ram. There is a very, very small load on it from the weight and friction of the paintball. So this is the only practical difference between dry firing and shooting with paint. After thinking, this next point is one that i cannot prove with what i know and still be fair. I could just say, "Yea so bkos CAN do 18cps with paint, and therefore 20cps also because the only difference is the extra two pb's witch the spring return and solenoid are proven to handle. So its reasonable to say that the psi pushing the ram forward can also hand it" Fact is, i dont know of ne vids that have bkos doin 20cps w/paint. IMO, i would say that they can because i do think that forward motion of the ram can handle it. You said that BKOs could prbly cycle 25 times a sec w/o paint, so wouldnt you yourelf think that they could do 20 times a sec w/paint?

Finally I would like to add that althoght i cant prove that the forward motion of the ram can happen with the paintball to produce a 20cps BKO, you havent dissproved this either. So the final word will be when some 1 posts a vid w/ paint.


[Infusion]BigC, if there is a J***@** in this thread, its you. "I will slap you in the face.

Do not ever correct me." Who do you think you are, Royalty :rolleyes:? I dont care if your a mod on this site or a regular poster, but whats with getting all B****Y. Shoot paint had the balls and smarts to come back with a good based argument.

[bko999]

Originally posted by ShorTi
BKO999, First off, the mech cap from factory is 18, get it straight. Yes it goes over 18 but 18 is the factory cap. Second, dont come into here and look like a big shot, your just making yourself look like a idiot.

I know that the mech cap is 18cps AS STATED FROM THE COMPANY. But i think in reality that the bko can do more than that.

[ShootPaint]

Originally posted by bko999

ShootPaint - These are two quotes direclty from ICDownersgroup.com "In the BKO, the solenoid is made by Humphrey.
You are correct here. I confused the solenoidused in the B2K with the noid in the BKO. The Humphrey solenoidis what is used in the BKO.

It's a 2 way which means it's either off or on.
No actually this isnt what a two way solenoid means. It doesnt mean off or on. A two solenoid indicates the air passages in the body of the valve assembly. A BKO uses a two way solenoid because it has a inlet port and a outlet port. If you want to get technical about it it could actually be considered a 3 way valve because it has a exhaust port as well. Any solenoid can be off or on. This is simply the electronic function that controls the action of the air valve itself.

This solenoid is off normally and then on when it gets the signal from the circuit board. The solenoid attaches to the ram assembly with two screws with a gasket between the solenoid and the ram. When it's told to, it sends pressure from the LPR through to the ram cylinder making it go forward." -and- "The BKO solenoid has been tested up around 20 cycles per second with no problems."
It may have been tested to this level but unless something has changed the original specs from Humphreys listed the max cycling ability of the solenoid to be 18 cps. Usually items like this are slightly under-rated so that all solenoids will meet the minimum requirement.

You said you could probly get a BKO to cycle 25 times persecond, but then that the noid from the factory actuates 18 times a second.
I am basically stating that the noid is stated to have a limiting factor of 18 cps but most of these noids can probably cycle upwards of 25 cps. Not all of them but most of them. Since they cant all do this Humphreys list the noids cycling rate based on the slowest noid from this group done under testing, which is where the 18 cps comes from.

Is there and aftermarket noid i'm missing that ups the cycles?, because i dont see how an 18cps noid can be modded to do 25cps.

"Granted most BKO's can cycle 20 bps but not all of them. This is the reason that ICD states the mechanical cap to be 18 bps.

So the statement earlier saying the mechanical cap is 18bps is correct." Now if most BKO's can cycle 20 bps, than how can your next statment about 18bps per second be fully correct? I feel that your condradicting yourself.
I am not contradicting myself. I am simply stating a fact. Most BKO can cycle upwards of 20 times per second. However there are others than cant get above 18cps. Since not every single BKO that is produced can reach the 20 cps range ICD states that the BKO is mechanically capped at 18 bps. This again is based on the slowest marker that was tested. This way ICD is sure to produce a marker that will preform to its minimum specs if not out preform them.

And how can sound wave testing mean nothing? The only major differnece between dryfiring and shooting with paint is the load on the forward motion of the ram. The backward action (controlled by the spring) has no difference in motion wether your dry firing or firing with paint. Now I respect your information from ICD, after all they created the marker. I've talked personally with TANK from tantrumpaintball.com and he said himself that the noid actuates at least 20 times a sec. Patleemans BKO DID do 20 cycles per second w/o paint so thats hard evidence for anyone to observe that the noid does at least 20 cycles per sec. I've also emailed patleeman, and he said that he had done NO modifications to the noid OR ram, to make the gun cycle faster. Like i said B4, It doesnt matter about the 2cps difference, its about the fact that the BKO can cycle at least 20cps w/o paint.
The reason you have to run the marker with paint is due to the simple fact of the marker has to shoot paint. Just because you set the marker to run 20 bps doesnt mean that it is just going to magically do it. Lets say that there is a magic loader out there that will load 100 bps. In turn we set the marker up to run 20 bps. We will not be hampered in anyway by the loader but we must have the bolt return complete for the breech to open for the next ball to be loaded. If the bolt only returns 3/4's before the next cycle then this cycle cant be counted because a ball cant be loaded. Now with a sound file you would never see this because the sound patern will be the exact same for each shot. Did the bolt assemblymove back and forth 20 times within a second. Well yes it did, but did this result in a paintball being shoot for each cycle? No it didnt. In turn you cant say that the marker can cycle at 20 bps because paint is not able to be loaded into the marker because of the mechanical failure of the spring to recock the marker quick enough for it to cycle at 20 bps.

Again I am not saying this happens on every marker because I myself have tested a BKO to 20 bps with a halo and chaos board set to full auto and I was able to make one marker fire with no problems at 20 bps, while the next marker I tried this on wasnt able to cycle at this speed. It only reached 17 bps before it wasnt returning the bolt far enough to load a paintball for each shot.

At this point, I've proved the noid to cycle at least 20 times a sec. The backward motion of the ram can go from fully extend to fully retracted in at least 20 times a sec too.
But you are talking about two markers. You arent talking about all BKO's across the board. I have stated how two markers right out of the box can vary 3cps with the same setup.

Like i said this motion makes no difference wether there is paint in the gun or not. Why?, because chambering and shooting a pb will not slow down that *backward* motion.
Actually motion has everything to do with how fast or how slow a marker can cycle. The slower the motion or recocking of the marker the slower it is going to cycle.

Finally, the last thing that will prevent the BKO from 20cps w/paint would be the forward motion of the ram. There is a very, very small load on it from the weight and friction of the paintball. So this is the only practical difference between dry firing and shooting with paint. After thinking, this next point is one that i cannot prove with what i know and still be fair. I could just say, "Yea so bkos CAN do 18cps with paint, and therefore 20cps also because the only difference is the extra two pb's witch the spring return and solenoid are proven to handle. So its reasonable to say that the psi pushing the ram forward can also hand it" Fact is, i dont know of ne vids that have bkos doin 20cps w/paint. IMO, i would say that they can because i do think that forward motion of the ram can handle it. You said that BKOs could prbly cycle 25 times a sec w/o paint, so wouldnt you yourelf think that they could do 20 times a sec w/paint?
You misread what I typed. I said that most of the solenoids could probably cycle upwards of 25 times per second. While this maybe that doesnt mean that the spring in the marker is able to return the bolt to fully cocked position 25 times per second.
As stated above I had two BKO that I tested. One was able to fire paint upwards of 20 bps with no problems while the other marker would cycle at 20 cps but I wasnt able to load a paintball in it because the spring that is used to cock the marker couldnt open the breech wide enough to allow for it.
However at 17 cps the marker cycle just fine with no ill-effects.

The thing about a spring is the material it is made from plays a major roll it how it works. A spring losses strength everytime it is compressed or expanded. With each cycle of the marker the recocking of that marker will become slower and slower. Granted there isnt any measureable difference until after hundreds of thousands of shots, maybe more. This will all depend on the hysterisis<sp?? of the metal used int he spring.

Now to prove or disprove your theroy about a sound wave being a good way to determine the cycle speed of a marker try this.

Find a buddy with a eblade cocker.
Write down all the timing settings from the eblade.
Make a recording of the marker cycling as fast as it can. Now have him adjust all the setting on the eblade to half of what they currently are. This will inturn will effectively raise the cycling speed of the marker to twice of what it is currently running at. Now take another sound file. You will see that the marker is now cycling at twice the speed it was in the previous recording.

Now with the marker still set at half of the original settings go out and put paint through the marker. I will lay money on it that you cant get the marker to cycle up to speed or shoot paint with any consistantcy. This is the same basic prinicipal that I am applying to Goldwave issues that you discussed earlier.


Finally I would like to add that althoght i cant prove that the forward motion of the ram can happen with the paintball to produce a 20cps BKO, you havent dissproved this either. So the final word will be when some 1 posts a vid w/ paint.
Actually I have a video around here somewhere of a KO shooting 20 bps on full auto. This however only proves that this marker is capable of it. Since each BKO has mechanical parts in it there is a good chance that several of them will not be able to reach the 20 bps that this marker was able to reach.

[ShorTi]

BKO, you come in here out of nowhere and try to prove SP wrong, impossible. Ive yet to see SP be wrong about a major thing...

[bko999]

"No actually this isnt what a two way solenoid means. It doesnt mean off or on. A two solenoid indicates the air passages in the body of the valve assembly. A BKO uses a two way solenoid because it has a inlet port and a outlet port. If you want to get technical about it it could actually be considered a 3 way valve because it has a exhaust port as well. Any solenoid can be off or on. This is simply the electronic function that controls the action of the air valve itself."

Well that information you posted refers to what i found @ ICDowners group. When he said the noid is either on or off i think he *was* refering to the fact that the noid remains electronically off until it receives electricity from the board. Not how the air passages would be on or off.

[ShootPaint]

The way you have it stated, or the way they wrote it read to me like the solenoid is a 2 way noid because it can only be turned off or on.

This in no way has any effect on determining the number of ways it is.

Think of it like this. How many ways can the air run through the solenoid. This determines the number. Since the BKO solenoid has three different air passages it is a 3 way noid. Here recently the trendy thing seems to be to leave out the exhaust port which in turn takes the BKO solenoid from a 3 way valve to a 2 way valve.

The 2 way, 3 way etc... doesnt concern itself with what position the valve is in when it is or is not energized. It all depends on the above.

[bko999]

Originally posted by ShorTi
BKO, you come in here out of nowhere and try to prove SP wrong, impossible. Ive yet to see SP be wrong about a major thing...

Why should coming out of now where mean anything? Whether I am new or not doesnt affect how right or wrong I am...
Shoot Paint said that solenoids may actuate 20 times a second but are rated for 18 times a second so that all of the noids will meet that standard no problem. He said that most noids will cycle at 25 times a sec. So how am I proving him wrong?, he is agreeing with me there. He also said the *most* BKOs can cycle upwards of 20 times a sec, but since not all do, ICD cant go out and put a 20cps label on the box or state it.

I said that in reality i think that bkos can cycle above 18. He said most can. To find the best answer you would have take all bkos ever made, test there max cps, and then determine an average.

In the end i wasnt fully correct or fully wrong when i said a bkos max mech cap is 20 times per sec. So inconclusion i find myself agreeing with [Infusion]BigC:laugh:.

[lotus_esprit5]

:laugh: .

wow we were gettin all PO'd and then you all end up partially agreeing. Talk about a plot twist. I was on the edge of my seat.

well bko999, welcome to the ICD forum :D .

[bko999]

Originally posted by ShootPaint
The way you have it stated, or the way they wrote it read to me like the solenoid is a 2 way noid because it can only be turned off or on.

This in no way has any effect on determining the number of ways it is.

Think of it like this. How many ways can the air run through the solenoid. This determines the number. Since the BKO solenoid has three different air passages it is a 3 way noid. Here recently the trendy thing seems to be to leave out the exhaust port which in turn takes the BKO solenoid from a 3 way valve to a 2 way valve.

The 2 way, 3 way etc... doesnt concern itself with what position the valve is in when it is or is not energized. It all depends on the above.

No no no, lol. You must have interpereted me wrong because i wouldnt have expected that explanation....I was simply saying that the noid is electronically powerless untill the board "turns it on" by actauting it. What i said wasnt supposed to be realative to whether its a 2 way noid or a 3 way noid.

I think that the information from ICDownersgroup meant that the noid is *electronically on or off*. With the information i origonally posted, " It's a 2 way which means it's either off or on." its only reflecting to how its electronically operated. When you look at it is badly worded for those who want to seriously analyze it, but nothing to make a fuss about.

[bko999]

Originally posted by lotus_esprit5
:laugh: .

wow we were gettin all PO'd and then you all end up partially agreeing. Talk about a plot twist. I was on the edge of my seat.

well bko999, welcome to the ICD forum :D .

I shouldnt be thinking so mush outside of school.:(

[ShootPaint]

Originally posted by bko999


No no no, lol. You must have interpereted me wrong because i wouldnt have expected that explanation....I was simply saying that the noid is electronically powerless untill the board "turns it on" by actauting it. What i said wasnt supposed to be realative to whether its a 2 way noid or a 3 way noid.

I think that the information from ICDownersgroup meant that the noid is *electronically on or off*. With the information i origonally posted, " It's a 2 way which means it's either off or on." its only reflecting to how its electronically operated. When you look at it is badly worded for those who want to seriously analyze it, but nothing to make a fuss about.

My previous statment explains this but again the solenoid electrical state has nothing to do with the ways of the valve. This is all determined by the amount of air passages in the valve body of the solenoid. To state that it is a 2way noid because it is either off or on is incorrect and misleading. I am not saying that this is what you intended to do I am simply trying to correct the statment that was made, no matter if it was made by you or someone else from ICD-Owners.

[[Infusion]BigC]

Originally posted by ShootPaint


My previous statment explains this but again the solenoid electrical state has nothing to do with the ways of the valve. This is all determined by the amount of air passages in the valve body of the solenoid. To state that it is a 2way noid because it is either off or on is incorrect and misleading. I am not saying that this is what you intended to do I am simply trying to correct the statment that was made, no matter if it was made by you or someone else from ICD-Owners.

Shootpaint, you may need to bust out some Valve diagrams if you have some.

Otherwise, I could draw some up.