'KO gas hog

[jdw_56]

alright, my ko ups are in my sig, and i was putting the first rounds of paint through it yesterday and i shot maybe 500 times on a full 68/3000 and i used the whole tank. do my regs just need to be broken in? i dont have a chrono, but my hpr is steady at 210 and my velocity seems correct(about 280 i'd say). what could be up?

[yoda101]

how many cases have you put through the cp reg; even so that seems low. Try sweet spotting your inline. Do a search i know its floating around somewhere. Think its even in the old FAQ thread

[Pbkid39]

Check for a leak possibly? If not, do like Yoda said and sweet-spot your inline. :tup:

[jdw_56]

the gun is just back from icd, so i better not freakin have a leak. and i looked in the faq, it said a 68/3000 should get like 1050. i have cycled the gun alot, even before it was fixed by icd, but its only shot about 700rounds, and that took two fills(with dry fires in between paint)

[ShootPaint]

Some markers take longer than other to break in. You need to make sure to keep your regs cleaned and lubed as well as the ram. Try gassing the marker up and letting it sit over nght. Dont cycle the marker just gas it up. This will help seat the poppit and cure most leaks that can be found in new markers. Then th normal cycling of the marker will be the best thing to get the rest of the parts broke in.

A few things to look for.

1) Remove your barrel and shine a flash light down the front of the marker. Looking through the rear of the marker can you see light coming around the bolt? If you do then you need a different bolt because you have blow back.

2) Check the valve exhaust port is centered with port inbetween the bottom and top tube. The valve can sometimes turn which will cause the marker to run at a hgher pressure.

3) Chrono the marker. No matter how close you think you are human eyes cant tell the different in 40FPS changes. You might think you are shooting 280 while you are actually shooting 320fps.

4) If you have a chaos board make sure your dwell settings arent above 10 or 12 ms.

[SABO]

when those steps mentioned above ar followed you should be ok. I have to say that the KOI, on the proper set up can be one of the most efficent markers our there. I am getting anywhere from 1900 to 2000 shots off of a 68/3000 fill and occassionally more than a case off a fill.

[jdw_56]

yeah i would think that especially with my setup i should be getting much better efficiency.

[jdw_56]

a follow up:

i got my 68/3000 PE tank filled today, hydro isnt for another couple years...

the guy that filled it filled it really really slow because he said filling it fast will result in losing like 300 pounds of pressure after the fill, and that going slow would reduce that(i'd never heard that before, but it kinda makes sense i suppose). anyway, he pulled it away from the station and immediately it started leaking from the nipple. it was definately the nipple, and not a safety disk or anything...did he overfill it and just act like it wasnt his fault?

could this have something to do with my crappy efficiency?

[Kowz_76]

That would be the fill nipple crapping out on you. Take it back tomorrow and see if it works. My PE tank had a finnicky fill nipple also, and I just replaced it. Fill nipples cost like $5 from a pb store or like 50 cents from a machine shop.

You efficiency sounds like a problem with your regs. Try re adjusting them and see if you get better results.

[4THDEGREE]

Originally posted by jdw_56


the guy that filled it filled it really really slow because he said filling it fast will result in losing like 300 pounds of pressure after the fill, and that going slow would reduce that(i'd never heard that before, but it kinda makes sense i suppose).

The reason for this that as gas is compressed it also heats up. when industrial cylinders are filled the temperature and pressure are monitored and a conversion chart is applied to calculate fill volumes. After the tank sits at a constant pressure, there will be a drop in pressure. The slower the fill, the slower the heat rise. So when you are getting a fill at the field and they slam the gas in to get them done as soon as possible, you are most likely always getting short filled ( unless of course, it is extremely cold say >40 degrees where the tank is being filled). i hope this helps

[pbhitmann14]

take off your hpr and make sure it isn't gooped-up with exes grease if so wipe some of it off cause it can result in decreased efficiency

[jdw_56]

well i did the math, it looks like i am getting roughly 35shots per 100psi. that comes out to 980 shots give or take per fill. that is considerably less than SABO's 1900-2000 testimony, and i doubt that much difference was caused by my regs being broken in. do you guys know of anything else that could be messed up? oh and the tank problem has been solved, i just stuck in an allen wrench and tapped the ball bearing inside the nipple back into place.

[ShootPaint]

Originally posted by jdw_56
well i did the math, it looks like i am getting roughly 35shots per 100psi. that comes out to 980 shots give or take per fill. that is considerably less than SABO's 1900-2000 testimony, and i doubt that much difference was caused by my regs being broken in. do you guys know of anything else that could be messed up? oh and the tank problem has been solved, i just stuck in an allen wrench and tapped the ball bearing inside the nipple back into place.

The regs breaking in will make a big difference. You have to break them in before you start worry about any kind of efficency numbers. You cant take the marker right out of the box and expect it to run as smooth as someone that has had their marker running for two or three years now. The seals on your marker are going to have a lot higher amount of drag than SABO's. This leads to a higher pressure being ran through the marker to get it to operate properly. Chances are you dont have enough paint through the marker yet to get a great seat for the poppit in your regs. This can lead to some gas leaking by and a lose of efficentcy. And not to mention you are running a 68/3K tank. I believe SABO runs a 68/45. If his numbers come from this tank then your would actually be behind him by roughly 600shots. This very easily could come from the marker not being broke in.

Keep cycling it. Some markers take long than others to break in. It all depends on how tight the seals are when the marker is built.

[jdw_56]

ok thanks alot, im gonna start breakin them in tomorrow, i finally get to play with it for the first time!

[ShootPaint]

I went back and read this entire post this has stirred my interest a little.

I actually had one of SABO's markers here a while back to preform the SP Mod on it. He was one of the original testers for the BKO.

There are a few things that I see different on your setup from his.

If memory serves me correctly I believe SABO runs a Vapor Volumizer. This holds a higher volume of gas as compared to the Mitey Max.

Since you are running a Mitey Max I am wondering if you are using the supplied spring that came with it. If you are this can also lead to a lower shot count. If you are using the supplied spring with the MM you are suppose to up your pressure in the marker. This in turn makes the marker harder on paint than normal. So if you are using the MM spring replace it with the stock spring that came in your BKO.

More about the stock spring.

With the MM installed you may preloading the spring which will reduce the mechanical dwell on the valve. In turn you would want to increase the solenoid dwell in your marker or increase the LPR pressure to compensate for this problem. I dont see where you are running a chaos board so I am guessing that the stock board is still in your marker. I know for a fact that SABO has a Chaos chip in his marker. I cant remember what the dwell was set at but I do remember seeing or installing a Chaos MAX chip in his marker.

Now should you be running the stock spring and you are increasing the LPR pressure to over come the preloading of the valve spring you will in turn require a greater amount of gas to make the marker cycle each time. To fix this problem you can remove the stock spring and cut off the first two coils on the spring. This will reduce the preload on the valve and reduce your pressure required to make the marker cycle.

Next thing we would need to look at after the valve is the dwell on the solenoid. Your solenoid if running the stock board is probably at 10 or 12 ms, depending on the revision of the board that you have. If you elect to run a chaos board in the near future you will want to run the Chaos as a 10 ms dwell. This will keep the marker quite consistant as well as use as little air and needed to maintain this consistantcy. Anything lower than 10 and the BKO will start to spike from one shot to the next. Anything higher and the KO starts to drink the gas each time it is fired.

Next thing I can think of is the drag. Since your marker is basically new you can do a fake break in on all of the parts by polishing them. This will reduce the friction in the marker and allow it to run smoother and in turn use less gas for each shot.

Final thought is the setup of your regs.

Since you are running a after market valve with a volumizer there is no reason your HPR pressure should be above 180 psi!!! You should be able to get in the 300-320 FPS range with the HPR at 180psi and adjusting the LPR to get the marker to fire at the desired FPS.

If your regs arent set up according to what I have listed above the marker may very well cycle, be consistant but still be inefficent.

So if your regs arent where I stated they should be do the following.

1) Adjust your HPR and LPR set screws out until at least one thread is showing on each adjustment screw.

2) Adjust your HPR until you reach 180psi on the Gauge.

3) Goto a chrono and adjust your LPR until you reach your desired FPS.

Make very minor adjustments in the HPR to get the marker consistant. When I say minor I mean 1/16th of a turn or less. Anymore than this and you should see the velocity of the marker spike way up or way down. By making fine adjustments you should be able to get your marker cycling in the + or - 3fps range with little to no problems.

Good luck and let me know if there is anything else about your setup that I have missed.

[jdw_56]

wow.

thanks alot, i imagine that will help immensely...once i figure this next one out...

i took your advice from an earlier post, and i gassed her up on about 2000psi of air and hpr set at 200. well i just checked it a minute ago to find i have 100psi left in my tank and my hpr was down to 90(gassed up about 7 hours ago). obviously, this screams leak. it must be a very miniscule leak because i could never hear any leak from the outside. aghhh i'm sick of having marker problems!

[ShootPaint]

Try the following to find this leak.

Get some more air.
Gas marker up
Watch pressure on HPR. Is the pressure stable or does it rise over a short period of time (Say a couple of minutes)
IF the pressure is stable you will next want to put your ear to the rear of the marker and listen for any leaks back there. This could be a sign of the LPR being over pressurized. If no leaks are heard from the rear of the marker remove your barrel and listen to your marker through the feed tube. Do you hear any leaks in the feed tube? If you do then you have a cup seal leak.

Vapor cup seals take a little time to break in. If the leak is very minor I would try to cycle the marker a couple thousand times and then check for a leak again. If you still hear the leak I would look at contacting Vapor about the replacment of your cup seal.

[jdw_56]

Originally posted by ShootPaint

IF the pressure is stable you will next want to put your ear to the rear of the marker and listen for any leaks back there

what if it rises?

[SABO]

Travis remembers my marker quite well. I am currently running the chaos dwell at 8ms. The regs breaking in wil make an immense difference. Yes I do have the vapor volumizer and the 1900 shots is off of a 68/3000 (plus a little usually fill), but that is a very good day. She is very efficent but it has also been vaporized and Shoopaint has worked his magic on it as well so that has a great deal to do with it.

example: two weeks ago we played a tourney, I shot 3 bags of paint or 1500 shots off of a 68/4500 before I went back to get more air the first time and had somewhere in the area of 1400 - 1500 psi still in the tank.

[lotus_esprit5]

I am currently running the chaos dwell at 8ms sry to get kinda OT, but I've got a question about dwell and how it relates to efficiency and pressure, so I guess its kinda relevant. The lower the dwell, the greater the efficiency right? also, my solenoid doesnt like 6ms or 8ms dwell times. When I set it to 6ms or 8ms I can hear some air moving around in my gun when I shoot, but the ram doesnt cycle. The lowest it can run on without doing this is 10ms. Any incites as to why? My noid is perfectly fine otherwise. or maybe it could be bad programming on the Chaos Board?

[ShootPaint]

To run the noid at a lower dwell time you will need to up your pressure on the LPR.

There is a trade off between low dwell and a efficent marker.

[jdw_56]

alright well yesterday didnt go too well...besides the fact that my friends cocker was acting up, my KO was a freakin blender. i set the hpr to 180-190, then got my lpr to where i was chronoing an average of +/- 4 or 5, one time i hit 296 three times in a row. anyway, i could shoot a string of about five then i would chop and the bolt would get stuck in the forward position. i am running my y-boarded egg on full speed. i did a quick blowback test....i just took off the hopper and put two balls in. of course, the top ball flew out when i fired. my sp mod is coming in soon, so hopefully that will be somewhat solved...but now i am faced with that leak, and i still havent figured it out. Travis, I did what you said and my hpr stayed consistant over the time i watched it(about 7 mins.) I listened for both the ram leak and cup seal. nothing. maybe i have a bad macro connection, who knows. i dont know whether i should send it icd or what. i really dont want to, as I think I should be able to solve it with everyones input.

[SABO]

just a thought, but the leak could be from the guage

[ShootPaint]

Originally posted by SABO
just a thought, but the leak could be from the guage

It could also be coming for the hose barb or the hose itself inside of the gripframe from the ASA block.

If the hose wasnt replaced at the factory it can get mushroomed and cause a minor leak. Usually when we remove a hose from the barb we cut the area off that use to be on the barb to make sure we get a good seal.

Try a real small amount of dish soap and water on the front asa block to see if you can locate the area the leak is coming from.

[greenshoes3]

ok, i dont have a chrono, and i unscrewed the lpr to lube it, s o next time i shoot my gun at my house without a chrono, i can just set it so my gauge reads 180, then keep screwing in my lpr until it looks like 180fps?

[ShootPaint]

Originally posted by greenshoes3
ok, i dont have a chrono, and i unscrewed the lpr to lube it, s o next time i shoot my gun at my house without a chrono, i can just set it so my gauge reads 180, then keep screwing in my lpr until it looks like 180fps?

Dont you mean 280fps???

You can adjust the regs as listed above provided you are running a after marker valve and you are using a 2003 BKO or older. If you are running a 2004 BKO then these settings will not work for you.

Even if you are running a 2003 or older BKO your eyes cant tell the difference in a 40 FPS change so what you might think is 280 is actually 240 or 320 FPS. A hand held radar chrono or even a cheap Brass Eagle barrel chrono can be a very vauable tool for your PB BAG!!!