Maybe LP isn't better than HP after all... [Archive]

elTwitcho

01-07-2002, 01:31 PM

Alright, anyone who knows anything about high end markers now damn well that Low Pressure is the way they're all going. Any manufacturer that wants to be successful had better have his gun running at a low pressure or people simply won't buy it at the tournament level. But I been thinking, there might be some drawbacks to low pressure, and to be honest, there aren't really any advantages between running a gun at 350 over running a gun at 180 psi (roughly half the pressure). So sit back, grab a drink and prepare to be dazzled.

First of all, is the rate of fire issue. When it comes to rate of fire, more is always better. Everyone want's the fastest shooting gun on the block, and why not? But when you use lower pressure, you're actually hindering your rate of fire. Let me explain

Any electronic paintball gun I can think of uses an internal timing system, reffered to as "forward dwell" or simply "dwell". What dwell is, is the amount of time, in milliseconds that the bolt and hammer are in the forwards position, and the valve is open. When the bolt and hammer are in the forward position, a paintball cannot be loaded (duh). With a lower pressure marker, you will absolutely have to use a higher dwell than with a higher pressure marker (well, almost always). What this means, is a lower pressure marker spends more time in a state where balls aren't loading, than a higher pressure gun will. Let's look at some numbers however.

Let's assume a paintball needs 60ms to go from a stopped position above the breech to a loaded position at the bottom of the breech. Let's also assume for the purpose of this argument that the bolt travels from the forward position with breech sealed, to the back position with breech open in 5ms. Let's assume it travels at the same speed going the opposite direction as well. Now, let's compare a higher pressure marker with a dwell of 12ms, to a lower pressure marker with a dwell of 20ms. The higher pressure marker has 22ms of time in which it is not in the bolt open position for a ball to drop for each shot. Using our 60ms ball drop assumption, that means to complete one shot and load the next ball you need 82ms. With the higher pressure marker however, due to the longer forward dwell the total time in which the bolt is not in an open position is 30ms. Add the time it takes for a ball to drop, and we have 90ms for the lower pressure gun to fire a ball and load the next one.

Using these numbers, the rate of fire without chopping (assuming a perfect feed situation) for both markers are as follows 12.19 bps for the HP gun, and 11.11 bps on the low pressure gun. That's an entire ball per second slower on the LP gun than on the HP gun. 1 ball per second is actually a big difference because on most electros, if the marker is set at 11 bps, when you pull higher than the set rate of fire, it ignores the trigger pulls that are less than 1/11th of a second apart. Meaning if you are pulling 12, the gun will fire at something more like 6. So yes, 1 ball per second is indeed a huge difference.

But there's more, LP not only affects rate of fire, it can also affect consistency over the chronograph. Lets go back to our assumed pressures for the 2 markers, we have one gun running 350psi, and the other running 180psi. Now if we have a regulator on both guns, that has an average variation in output of 10psi, that means the pressure can change by 1/18th on the LP gun, and 1/35th on the HP gun. When the pressure changes by that much, you will also start to see velocity changes. Though I don't believe velocity works this way, it's simpler for the purpose of illustration so bear with me. We assume that a change in percentage of psi (example, a drop of 5% of the pressure) will result in an equal percentage drop in your velocity. What this means, is that at 300fps using the previously mentioned reg with a +-10 psi output, the average variation in speed on the LP marker will be 16.6 feet per second. On the Higher pressure marker however, using the same assumption about psi and how it affects velocity, the average variation will be half that, or 8.3 feet per second.

Again, the 10% drop in psi = 10% drop in velocity is just an assumption. It is probably incorrect. It was however used to illustrate a point, which though having slightly different rules, works in a similar manner.

And there you have it, some serious cons about using a low pressure marker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to stop buying LP markers, mine runs at less than 180psi, this is just something for people to think about. Who knows, maybe all that jazz about an angel at 12bps chopping less than a bushmaster at 12bps is true. maybe not

Thead

01-07-2002, 02:09 PM

i only understand maybe half of that, but im still dazzled :nod: :agree:

compadre7

01-07-2002, 02:15 PM

Very interesting...

But wouldn't lp be less hard on the ball; therefore, creating a better trajectory? That may be a "my cocker has more range cuz..." statement though.

Lp will also sometimes NOT chop balls because it does operate at such a low pressure, it will more or less just pinch them. But, if what you're saying is true, then that is kind of thinking in a circle because you say hp chops LESS balls.

Lp is quieter.

Good job!

CDietz

01-07-2002, 02:28 PM

ahhhh!:crazy:

did you think all this up on your own, or did you get it from somewhere. and do you have any actual proof or any experiments to PROVE your theories?

elTwitcho

01-07-2002, 02:30 PM

thought it up on my own, and I have no proof, which is why they are theories. IfI had proof, they would be laws :)

SniperM98

01-07-2002, 02:36 PM

I like it when you make non thinkers think!

nlh

01-07-2002, 02:41 PM

Great thinking. I've been following a lot of your posting in the Intimidator forum, as I'm planning on purchasing one in the next few months, and this is very interesting, considering everyone has run low pressure on their intimidators for so long.

Have you tried using High Pressure on yours, or, will you soon?

july_favre

01-07-2002, 02:59 PM

The ROF of fire I agree with to an extent. Some people who keep the on time longer for lower pressure or to increase velocity would have a lower ROF. So if increased on times is used to make the gun lower pressure it will slow down the ROF causing the skipped shots as you mentioned but if both guns have the same timing and the LP is simply lower pressure because of increased airflow then it doesnt make a difference.

As for the the reg that cant feed fast enough, that is true which is why you need a high flowing reg. I wasnt sure if what you were explaining was what I thought you were so I had to read it a few times.
With a 10 psi difference with the LP gun its about a 6% in difference and with the HP gun its about a 3% difference- that might make it easier for others to understand.

Another dissadvantage that is true for making some guns lower pressure is highLPR pressure. some people who raise the LPR pressure to make it lower pressure they will get alot of kick. In markers like the impulse(not reallt sure if theres others like it) where it operates at the same as the input pressure it will have the kick of a bronco which is probably why people use delrin hammers in their impulses which is unheard of in other guns. On my gun I lower the LPR pressure and raise the overall operating pressure to have less kick.

And of course theres the problem of just being a gas hog like the peopl who run their guns at 100psi to say they run it that low with nothing to gain over 300 psi.

Omega6_Virus

01-07-2002, 04:55 PM

You say the HP marker has about 12bps, and the LP marker about 11bps, still in 2 seconds, thats 24bps compared to 22 bps. I dunno, but I dont care. I know, you are all proud of yourself, as you should be cause I might go HP, on a very well written argument about HP and LP. As long as I get the eliminations, the 1 or 2 bps I loose doesn't matter to ME. There are soooo many variables in paintball. Such as accuracy. The guy with the hp gun could be putting more stress on the paintball and causing iregulatities and making it miss its inteaded target. This HP to LP argument would be very important if we were talking "sniping with paintballs(as you you n00b's know, there is no such thing) because the effects might make a great deal of difference.Sure, would I like the have that one bps back? yeah, but do I absolutely need it when I have other team-mates shooting too? I dunno why im rambling on. who cares.

elTwitcho

01-07-2002, 05:23 PM

Yes but... to quote myself

1 ball per second is actually a big difference because on most electros, if the marker is set at 11 bps, when you pull higher than the set rate of fire, it ignores the trigger pulls that are less than 1/11th of a second apart. Meaning if you are pulling 12, the gun will fire at something more like 6. So yes, 1 ball per second is indeed a huge difference.

compadre7

01-07-2002, 05:31 PM

We need to test this hypothesis! :D

Omega6_Virus

01-07-2002, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Omega6_Virus
You say the HP marker has about 12bps, and the LP marker As long as I get the eliminations, the 1 or 2 bps I loose doesn't matter to ME.
My quote. :D :)

elTwitcho

01-07-2002, 08:11 PM

Reread my quote. You don't lose 1 bps. If you fire over the limit, you lose roughly half your BPS. As I said, you pull 12 bps, with a ROF set at 11, you don't lose 1 ball per second, you fire at 6, meaning you lose 6 bps. Don't believe me? Set your intimidator to 9 bps and pull as fast as you can. Are you firing 9 bps?

Letchworth40

01-07-2002, 08:18 PM

but if you record it on your computer and count the peaks in 1 second i think it would be 9. Ive seen people do this on the net with all types of guns and it came out ok.

july_favre

01-07-2002, 08:42 PM

eltwicho is speaking truth. When I tune down the ROF on my gun to like 12 so I dont chop and I shoot as fast as i can the gun shoots around 5. Does that with my chaos and with my friends when he had the stock.

elTwitcho

01-07-2002, 09:12 PM

Exactly, because the gun doesn't slow down your rate of fire in the sense you're thinking, what it does, is discards any shot that is less than 1/xth of a second after the last one. x is the number you have set for your rate of fire.

UTLadiesMan

01-07-2002, 09:40 PM

My experience has been that the lower operating pressures are more consistent. The stiffer the spring in the regulator is, the more it will actually mess up. When the spring is stiffer, it requires a high burst of air, then closes the reg quickly and with force. It could close with too much, or just a bit too little pressure in the marker. However, with a softer spring (or even just turning the reg down) the spring doesn't slam shut as quickly or with as much force, and it will allow a smoother transition which is much more precise. As we all know, consistency is accuracy, and volume is accuracy. An extra ball per second should be equal to about a +/-3 fps for every shot.

We should test it... Get a digital guage and a regulator hooked up to a marker. Fire 20 shots really quickly at 350 psi, and the same for 180 psi. Repeat many times. The 180 psi will be much closer to accurate almost every time.

PaintballerX

01-08-2002, 01:33 PM

I would like to say, on behalf of all stupid people (myself included): HUH?!

davkad

01-08-2002, 05:01 PM

it is not really true that a low pressure gun will break less balls than a high pressure one... if the pressure behind the ball exceeds 100 psi, the ball will alway break. on a HP spyder, the ball is pushed at around 80 psi (not the pressure the gun uses to re-cock)

twitcho makes an amazing point. i think this should be stickied and everyone should read it.

my friend nerobro, a really knowledgeable person at paintball (moderates the spyder forum at pbn) explained to me why LP creates more problems, and does not give advantages to the marker. he actually like twitcho's explanation so much, that he wants it stickied over at the pbn spyder forums (if you will post it there :) )

high flow is good, because it provides more recocking pressure, but when you use devices like turbo valves, it in fact, splits the air source giving less pressure for recocking.

stealthbig

01-08-2002, 05:17 PM

So all the people that bought this expensive LP rig really dont need it? Lol. Well I never planned on ever going LP because it was much more expensive and not many advantages. Now with what ElTwitcho has revealed, I actually HAVE a reason to stay HP.

I think this post should be stickied, I have never seen anyone really argue this point, and it would good for people to know the pros to sticking with HP.

The Legend

01-08-2002, 05:33 PM

While it may sound good on paper, do you really think this is how it all plays out in real life?

Also, on your ROF issue and the 11 vs 12 bps thing. No matter what pressure, someone pulling 12 bps on a gun limited to 11 the gun will kick in at around 6-8 bps. That is true. But anyone who has their marker set to 11 bps cant complain when this happens. That has NOTHING to do with pressure of the gun.

So in reality, that 11 vs 12 bps ISNT a huge difference.

And who here, can honestly shoot over 12 bps for more than 5 or so shots? If so, prove it.

Good thinking, I like the way you took the time to draw it all out. The concept is there, I just dont think it reall works like that.

UTLadiesMan

01-08-2002, 11:26 PM

Even if everything twitch said turned out to be true, I can still get more than a case through my marker with one 4500psi 68ci nitro. Not many people can say that.

elTwitcho

01-09-2002, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by The Legend
While it may sound good on paper, do you really think this is how it all plays out in real life?

Also, on your ROF issue and the 11 vs 12 bps thing. No matter what pressure, someone pulling 12 bps on a gun limited to 11 the gun will kick in at around 6-8 bps. That is true. But anyone who has their marker set to 11 bps cant complain when this happens. That has NOTHING to do with pressure of the gun.

So in reality, that 11 vs 12 bps ISNT a huge difference.

And who here, can honestly shoot over 12 bps for more than 5 or so shots? If so, prove it.

Good thinking, I like the way you took the time to draw it all out. The concept is there, I just dont think it reall works like that.

Actually, the ROF has everything to do with the pressure on your gun. The limiting factor in how high you can set your rate of fire is not how many times a ball can slide down the barrel or anything like that, the only thing that determines ROF without chopping is length of time the breach is open. If by using a higher pressure your dwell time is shorter, conversely your breech open time will be longer, and a ball has more time to load. By changing the dwell, you can affect whether a ball will chop or not, without actually changing the amount of times the bolt cycles per second.

Richy_C

01-09-2002, 11:44 AM

What hippie crap is this? It's so fricken easy to see lp is better twitch. It's easier on the fairies, and as we all know, pressure is nothing compared to the fairies. No LP, no fairies, no win. Lp, fairies, win. Wouldcha learn to think a little there twitch? :P

The Legend

01-09-2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho

Actually, the ROF has everything to do with the pressure on your gun. The limiting factor in how high you can set your rate of fire is not how many times a ball can slide down the barrel or anything like that, the only thing that determines ROF without chopping is length of time the breach is open. If by using a higher pressure your dwell time is shorter, conversely your breech open time will be longer, and a ball has more time to load. By changing the dwell, you can affect whether a ball will chop or not, without actually changing the amount of times the bolt cycles per second.

Ok, so less pressure, more dwell.

What if you got a high flow valve and lightened the valve spring? Same dwell time, but look, at a lower pressure.

There are MANY things that one has to take into consideration. Way too many variables, IMO.

Again, good thinking though.

elTwitcho

01-09-2002, 12:06 PM

Well, naturally a high flowing valve would be just as good, but not that many markers have valves around that flow high enough to lower your dwell as much as if you raised your pressure by a couple hundred PSI.

The Legend

01-09-2002, 12:11 PM

Understandable.

Also, has anyone brought in the recoil factor? HP guns tend to kick more than LP guns. A steady stream of 11 bps has to be more effective than a wild stream of 12 bps. And I personally like the smooth feal of a low recoil marker MUCH better than that of a high recoil marker. Its a personal thing, but I'll give up 1 bps for that.

And LP is easier on guns internals too. Not as many things smacking around in there.

elTwitcho

01-09-2002, 12:16 PM

Yeah but an angel running at 400psi doesn't kick at all. Neither does a cocker running at 350psi. Higher Pressure doesn't always mean more kick. Especially if you add a delrin bolt

The Legend

01-09-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
Yeah but an angel running at 400psi doesn't kick at all.

Sure it does.

Next time you shoot an angel dont watch the balls, just feel for the recoil.

It is there, and as weak as it may seem, when playing as a backplayer or shooting cross field trying to hit a hopper, it is a HUGE kick.

That is much of the reason why I like the martix:)

UTLadiesMan

01-09-2002, 01:13 PM

OK. If you don't want to worry about it get a cocker. How long the bolt is open has absolutely nothing to do with the dwell.

flyingdeadbody1

01-09-2002, 07:23 PM

haha, i agree.

dont worry im just tired and exams are next week

Ebonclaw

01-10-2002, 11:14 AM

Hey Twitch.....I'm guessing though that LP can be good for us "electro frame" blowbacks where there's no dwell to mess with.....what are the benefits of running a gun like mine on high pressure as opposed to low?

The Legend

01-10-2002, 11:41 AM

There is dwell to mess with. Only its done by changing springs/spring pressure instead of adjusting an electronis dwell. It is what changes velocity.

elTwitcho

01-10-2002, 02:50 PM

Exactly what Legend said

The Legend

01-10-2002, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
Exactly what Legend said

Me no idiot.:)

And twitchy, (can I call you twitchy?) you shoot an intimidator. You cant tell me you dont notice a recoil when you fire. The ones I've shot have had horrible kickback, but I've been told some mods can fix that.

elTwitcho

01-10-2002, 03:13 PM

Yes but like most other paintball guns, the kick is caused by the weight of the bolt being transfered back and forth inside the marker. It's got very little to do with the markers operating pressure

The Legend

01-10-2002, 03:17 PM

snipinhick

01-10-2002, 05:23 PM

I hate to say it, but a pain gun only weghs in at a mesily 5 pounds completly equiped, and has a recoil force smaller then a 22calliber rifle. If you are having that much of a problem with kick that you need to spend high amounts of money on LP, then you should tuck you gun in more and hold it to your body tighter. I believe that LP is mostly fat, and that HP is the easiest way to go.

The Legend

01-11-2002, 12:39 PM

I wasnt complaining, I was stating facts. Paintballs arent perfectly accurate, and when shooting cross field or long distances it has noticable effect on accuracy.

DasBaldDog

01-11-2002, 05:20 PM

There are advantages to both LP and HP.

I perfer the benefits of LP. 'Nuff said.

dcmander

01-11-2002, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
Yes but like most other paintball guns, the kick is caused by the weight of the bolt being transfered back and forth inside the marker. It's got very little to do with the markers operating pressure

Well the lower the operation pressure is.. the less pressure the RAM needs to move the bolt.. Therefore, the bolt will not move as hard back and forth with a lower operation pressure.

Isn't that correct? :P :eek:

elTwitcho

01-11-2002, 11:34 PM

Yes but with a delrin bolt you can move all that crap back and forth hard as you please. And the weight transfer effect caused by the hammer is negligible, it's all in the bolt

coyote

01-13-2002, 10:45 PM

Something to consider...

LP is the side effect of a well matched well tuned marker. It should not be the goal in and of itself. Remember to that volume is the other side of the equation. They (pressure and volume of your charge) have a nasty way of evening stuff out. Anyone who believes that LP makes a gun more effiecent or consistant need look no farther than the Phantom. It operates a high pressure (800 psi) yet it is very consistant at the muzzle, and very gas efficient. The Shocker runns on 180 (?) psi. It is a gas hog (high volume per shot)

The paintball industry loves it when we buy stuff to make LP mods to our gear. They sell us tons of aftermarket bolts, valves, LP chambers, you name it. If anyone could offer rock solid proof that LP was the holy grail those high pressure phantoms, spyders, tippmans, and mags would all disappear. They won't though. Because low pressure operation isn't really that important.

UTLadiesMan

01-14-2002, 09:16 AM

Coyote couldn't been any more correct.

DasBaldDog

01-14-2002, 09:48 AM

The phantom is a major exception to the rule

The Shocker's main ingenuity lay in the fact it uses LP to impact the ball more gently, thus causing less dimpes (especially in tournement paint) and smooting out the trajectory (because the ball has an unmolested shape).

My shocker runs 165 (it could run as low as 130 if I need it to)

And for the record Coyote. Next time you see a Tippmann, Spyder (other the crappy EM-1's) Phantom or the like at the World Cup, take a picture, cause that is one rare sight.

moodydoody

01-14-2002, 09:55 AM

what about bad company? they use em1 and xtras. AND THEY ARE PRO!!! hahahahaha i am right and your wrong hahahaha.

o man i need to get more sleep.

DasBaldDog

01-14-2002, 10:00 AM

I said except the EM-1. You really do need sleep. The only reason they use EM-1's is because they have to, to keep sponsorship.

Ebonclaw

01-14-2002, 10:09 AM

I thought Bad Company shot Xtras with Hyperframes....

DasBaldDog

01-14-2002, 10:14 AM

Yeah, EM-1. That's all they are.

Ice

09-02-2002, 08:56 AM

bring this back to life for the new members to read....
very interesting.

StealthElephant

09-02-2002, 09:32 AM

owww owwww twitch you bastid...my head hurts....all that thinking and math....this is a paintball forum damnit...not math class!

Oh yea...I was under the impression that LP was to be "softer" on the ball. You get high flow valves and the such...so you can set your dwell shorter but still get a very high flow....look at shockers....they have huge air chambers....high flow.....

DasBaldDog

09-02-2002, 09:40 AM

It's all in the Pressure Pixies...

i like tictacs

09-02-2002, 10:03 AM

Why does this matter? Like, at all? Legend was SO right when he said that a LITTLE kick from a backman trying to hit a hopper across the field is a lot of kick.

LP is quieter and smoother, thats why we invest in it. Its just a plain and simple fact.

FrOnTMaN

09-02-2002, 10:27 AM

lower pressure is like a trophy. you can brag that your gun runs lower. you may not know what it does, if its bad or good for your marker, but yours is lower. so thats all that counts:cool:

StealthElephant

09-02-2002, 10:55 AM

Lower isn't always better tho....as Legend said kick is important...but if your a front player with an Angel it's not a big deal. Back and Front players need different things from their guns.

thebluenu

09-02-2002, 11:20 AM

lp is quieter - i know that for a fact, similar to a PORTED BARREL (add both together and u got one hell of a sifting (yes i used the word sift, if its a word or not) cocker just hearing the back block move)

as for it being better on paint, i dont know, but it sounds good :nod:

gotta remember lp is a two way street with efficency, lower is better for efficency - to a point, then it just gets wastefull and inefficent

btw, IMO lp is a gimick :eyes:, but a DAMN GOOD ONE with some advantages - like being quiet (something "snipers" as ill call them want so they dont get "heard: :rolleyes: ) - anyway im gonna change my main cocker spring and RAISE my imput pressure to around 300 psi (from 200) so i can lower my bolt pressure - i just dont see how such low pressure helps me right now....

Mrfxiitxx

09-02-2002, 12:21 PM

Just need to put in my $.02 on this.

LP is not more effeincy than HP, the reason people make this mistake is most LP guns are designed more effeinctly. A blow back marker which most HP guns are is a very ineffeinct design wasting a large portion of the air recocking the gun. Where as most LP designs use less air to cycle with.

Also this talk of LP slowing down the cycling rate of a gun is taking it a bit far. If you have a high flowing setup you can still pull 20bps. Most of the Dwell time is adjusted in very very small increments so the fact that dwell is open 1/1000th of a second longer is not going to make a large differnce in ROF since even at 30bps your talking a triger pull ever 3/100ths of a second. Look at alot of LP markers they can pull 20bps+ I've heard that Wick Air sports has clocked a timmy shotting 24bps with a HALO B. I'm not sure about you but I think that shows that LP doesnt drastically slow down your ROF.

Mr.Fixitxx

StealthElephant

09-02-2002, 01:12 PM

LP or HP has no effect on the efficiency if the gun is designed for a certain pressure, the lowerpressure is wanted for kick reasons. Legend made the point....all that matters is kick....LP reduces kick. By using less force, but higher flow you reduce kick.

dew_dew_boy

09-02-2002, 03:48 PM

I set my Angels Dwell at 14 and Adjusted my Reg until it was around 290 FPS. If I turned the Dwell up to lets say 20, then adjusted the Reg until it was back at 290 fps. What would be the difference? Oyeah lol, This is a LP Angel.

Shadow221

09-02-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by compadre7
But wouldn't lp be less hard on the ball; therefore, creating a better trajectory? That may be a "my cocker has more range cuz..." statement though.
Auomags run at about 400psi but the hit the ball lighter than a vast magority of guns. Even without the LX Mags hit the ball with only 65psi whereas a low pressure shocker for instance hits the ball with closer to 160psi.

DasBaldDog

09-02-2002, 07:51 PM

Actually the bolt pressure on a Shocker is around 90 psi.

I know there is no internal reg but we have done NUMEROUS tests on the bolt and it moves at an average pressure of 90 psi (give or take 5 depending on which bolt head you use)...

We're still trying to figure it out.

elTwitcho

09-03-2002, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Mrfxiitxx

Also this talk of LP slowing down the cycling rate of a gun is taking it a bit far. If you have a high flowing setup you can still pull 20bps. Most of the Dwell time is adjusted in very very small increments so the fact that dwell is open 1/1000th of a second longer is not going to make a large differnce in ROF since even at 30bps your talking a triger pull ever 3/100ths of a second. Look at alot of LP markers they can pull 20bps+ I've heard that Wick Air sports has clocked a timmy shotting 24bps with a HALO B. I'm not sure about you but I think that shows that LP doesnt drastically slow down your ROF.

Mr.Fixitxx

The WAS videos are all done with force feed systems, and yes the longer dwell will make a difference, the numbers are right there in the thread. You can't argue that "Oh it's only a slight difference" when calculations show it to be a pretty significant difference. And sure there's tons of electros that can do 20 bps, but they cannot feed at that rate unless they're on a force fed system.

elTwitcho

09-03-2002, 08:50 AM

And all the people asking about kick, well how bad does an angel kick compared to an impulse? I would be inclined to say the angel kicks less and yet runs 150psi higher, so operating pressure and kick are only proportional to a small extent

Thor the Mighty

09-03-2002, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
Alright, anyone who knows anything about high end markers now damn well that Low Pressure is the way they're all going. Any manufacturer that wants to be successful had better have his gun running at a low pressure or people simply won't buy it at the tournament level. But I been thinking, there might be some drawbacks to low pressure, and to be honest, there aren't really any advantages between running a gun at 350 over running a gun at 180 psi (roughly half the pressure). So sit back, grab a drink and prepare to be dazzled.

First of all, is the rate of fire issue. When it comes to rate of fire, more is always better. Everyone want's the fastest shooting gun on the block, and why not? But when you use lower pressure, you're actually hindering your rate of fire. Let me explain

Any electronic paintball gun I can think of uses an internal timing system, reffered to as "forward dwell" or simply "dwell". What dwell is, is the amount of time, in milliseconds that the bolt and hammer are in the forwards position, and the valve is open. When the bolt and hammer are in the forward position, a paintball cannot be loaded (duh). With a lower pressure marker, you will absolutely have to use a higher dwell than with a higher pressure marker (well, almost always). What this means, is a lower pressure marker spends more time in a state where balls aren't loading, than a higher pressure gun will. Let's look at some numbers however.

Let's assume a paintball needs 60ms to go from a stopped position above the breech to a loaded position at the bottom of the breech. Let's also assume for the purpose of this argument that the bolt travels from the forward position with breech sealed, to the back position with breech open in 5ms. Let's assume it travels at the same speed going the opposite direction as well. Now, let's compare a higher pressure marker with a dwell of 12ms, to a lower pressure marker with a dwell of 20ms. The higher pressure marker has 22ms of time in which it is not in the bolt open position for a ball to drop for each shot. Using our 60ms ball drop assumption, that means to complete one shot and load the next ball you need 82ms. With the higher pressure marker however, due to the longer forward dwell the total time in which the bolt is not in an open position is 30ms. Add the time it takes for a ball to drop, and we have 90ms for the lower pressure gun to fire a ball and load the next one.

Using these numbers, the rate of fire without chopping (assuming a perfect feed situation) for both markers are as follows 12.19 bps for the HP gun, and 11.11 bps on the low pressure gun. That's an entire ball per second slower on the LP gun than on the HP gun. 1 ball per second is actually a big difference because on most electros, if the marker is set at 11 bps, when you pull higher than the set rate of fire, it ignores the trigger pulls that are less than 1/11th of a second apart. Meaning if you are pulling 12, the gun will fire at something more like 6. So yes, 1 ball per second is indeed a huge difference.

But there's more, LP not only affects rate of fire, it can also affect consistency over the chronograph. Lets go back to our assumed pressures for the 2 markers, we have one gun running 350psi, and the other running 180psi. Now if we have a regulator on both guns, that has an average variation in output of 10psi, that means the pressure can change by 1/18th on the LP gun, and 1/35th on the HP gun. When the pressure changes by that much, you will also start to see velocity changes. Though I don't believe velocity works this way, it's simpler for the purpose of illustration so bear with me. We assume that a change in percentage of psi (example, a drop of 5% of the pressure) will result in an equal percentage drop in your velocity. What this means, is that at 300fps using the previously mentioned reg with a +-10 psi output, the average variation in speed on the LP marker will be 16.6 feet per second. On the Higher pressure marker however, using the same assumption about psi and how it affects velocity, the average variation will be half that, or 8.3 feet per second.

Again, the 10% drop in psi = 10% drop in velocity is just an assumption. It is probably incorrect. It was however used to illustrate a point, which though having slightly different rules, works in a similar manner.

And there you have it, some serious cons about using a low pressure marker. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to stop buying LP markers, mine runs at less than 180psi, this is just something for people to think about. Who knows, maybe all that jazz about an angel at 12bps chopping less than a bushmaster at 12bps is true. maybe not

....god twitch! thats ingenious. you should send that in to apg....HAHAHAH.. ok screw apg, they suck, send it into a paintball magazine. im serious!

MINDofSIN

09-03-2002, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
And all the people asking about kick, well how bad does an angel kick compared to an impulse? I would be inclined to say the angel kicks less and yet runs 150psi higher, so operating pressure and kick are only proportional to a small extent

The Impulse has a larger/heavier bolt.

tommyd

09-03-2002, 11:58 AM

WAS is not the most dependable person for numbers. i mean no the post in pbnation about the eualizer board for the impulse is deffinatly not true. quite a few people agree with me on that one yeah we have numbers somewhere too:eyepop: but anyhoo thats all i was trying to say.

now for my personal thought.
Angels do have smaller lighter bolts compared to an impulse. And yes i think a STOCK angel does have less kick compared to the STOCK impulse. But once you get a new bolt for the impulse that all changes.

the amount of stuff moving around inside the marker or even out side the marker is what causes kick. that and airpressure pushing the bolt back into position. The weight of the bolt and hammer come into play here too. if you have a 160 gram bolt/hamer moveing back wards at6 miles per hour wiht 800 psi behind it theres gonna be some kick when that bolt/hammer returns to its normal position. and a lot more so then and impulse running at 175 psi with a 2 gram bolt and a 15 gram hammer. And the yes autococker as a lot of crap moving around inside and yes the bolt pressure is usually between 300-450 psi. but the cocking pressure is more around 60-80 psi resulting in a lot less kick back

well thats my explanation of things e mail me or im me if you want me to dazzle you with my wealth of knowledge

aim tommysalami1782
e mail tommyd46290@msn.com

DasBaldDog

09-03-2002, 12:25 PM

Angel fairies are British and therefore more regal than Impulse fairies which come from Pittsburgh.... I mean REALLY... when was the last time you heard of a majestic person that came from Pittsburgh?

dew_dew_boy

09-03-2002, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by dew_dew_boy
I set my Angels Dwell at 14 and Adjusted my Reg until it was around 290 FPS. If I turned the Dwell up to lets say 20, then adjusted the Reg until it was back at 290 fps. What would be the difference? Oyeah lol, This is a LP Angel.

Ahhhhh anyone going to answer?

StealthElephant

09-03-2002, 02:35 PM

Mrfxiitxx

09-03-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho

The WAS videos are all done with force feed systems, and yes the longer dwell will make a difference, the numbers are right there in the thread. You can't argue that "Oh it's only a slight difference" when calculations show it to be a pretty significant difference. And sure there's tons of electros that can do 20 bps, but they cannot feed at that rate unless they're on a force fed system.

Eltwitcho what does it matter how the balls are feed into the gun? Thats the hopper affecting rate of fire. You said earlier that the dwell staying open longer is slowing down rate of fire. If a gun can fire 25 bps without paint the dwell still stays open the same amount of time as if it had paint in it.

So saying LP pressure guns have an largely differnce in ROF doesnt seem to be well proven. I dont see any HP guns pulling 40+bps(or full cycles per second) and timmys are supposed to be capable of 33 cycles per second. The e-mag has been clocked at 30 cycles per second.

Mr.Fixit

werty7373

09-03-2002, 02:50 PM

all markers are lp in away no gun uses more than 200psi to fire a paintball. as tom kaye has said.

elTwitcho

09-03-2002, 02:50 PM

You're completely missing the point. The fact that it can cycle at 30 cps means jack all if the breech isn't open long enough to feed a paintball, and the breech would be open longer with a shorter dwell

Richy_C

09-03-2002, 02:53 PM

Tuned Angels don't kick as much as Rat Impulses. That AA hammer is damn heavy.

werty7373

09-03-2002, 02:57 PM

here are some responses ur theory got (these are not my replies):well this wasnt thought through well...
"Let's assume a paintball needs 60ms to go from a stopped position above the breech to a loaded position at the bottom of the breech. "
then he goes on to say with 50% dwell increase or whatever it would change to 90 ms? Give me a break! 60 ms? for the ball to get into the breach? what kinda watch does this guy own? that is less than 2 ball per second max?

Richy_C

09-03-2002, 03:06 PM

A millisecound is a thousandth of a secound... or so I thought :dodgy:

Mrfxiitxx

09-03-2002, 03:06 PM

Eltwitcho I dont agree with your numbers personally. Unless you have actually timed bolts of a HP and LP marker(down to miliseconds) all your numbers are sheer speculation with no solid basis other than its a decent theory.

A HP gun is limited by its hopper as well. Yeah if its breach is open longer paint has more time to settle but once you start hitting 14bps+ no gravity feed hopper will keep up anyway so you have to go force feed to have a hopper capable of a high rate of fire.

Until you show me where a HP gun can outshoot a LP gun(without board limitations coming into play). I wont agree with you on the fact that LP affects ROF signfigantly.

The bolt blocking the breach will yes slow down feed time slightly, but its so slight that its not making a huge differnce at the current ROF that guns are capable of. I dont see sypders pulling 14bps on a 12v revvy and impulses/shockers or other LP markers only get 12bps with a 12v revvy(etc..)

Mr.Fixitx

elTwitcho

09-03-2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by werty7373
here are some responses ur theory got (these are not my replies):well this wasnt thought through well...
"Let's assume a paintball needs 60ms to go from a stopped position above the breech to a loaded position at the bottom of the breech. "
then he goes on to say with 50% dwell increase or whatever it would change to 90 ms? Give me a break! 60 ms? for the ball to get into the breach? what kinda watch does this guy own? that is less than 2 ball per second max?

What kind of planet are you from where a second is less than 120ms long?

Paint Bulley

09-03-2002, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho

What kind of planet are you from where a second is less than 120ms long?

"-apparently the idiots on these forums are breeding faster than the rest of us"

remember that :)

so you running HP twitch?

StealthElephant

09-03-2002, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Richy_C
Tuned Angels don't kick as much as Rat Impulses. That AA hammer is damn heavy.

Says member #1 of the "Impulse Hater" group

FrOnTMaN

09-03-2002, 03:58 PM

why dont we just cut the endless posts and start claiming the most perfect marker is our own, cuse i can see this heading there.

Richy_C

09-03-2002, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by StealthElephant
Says member #1 of the "Impulse Hater" group
Denile ain't just a river in Eygpt you know. They do kick more. I've owned both, I know from experience, long experience, not just shooting one over the chrono. Don't bring that inthis thread. Don't even respond.

Actually, as I remeber, twitchos guess was prooved correct on PBC some time ago. Good enough for me, and anyway, the numbers aren't important, it's the theory.

dew_dew_boy

09-03-2002, 04:54 PM

DasBaldDog

09-03-2002, 04:57 PM

You might have better luck asking in the WDP forum.

dew_dew_boy

09-03-2002, 05:07 PM

I posted my question in the WDP forum. Good Idea dass.

And about Angels kick. I just got an Angel and yes it does kick more than my Spyder shutter. When I first shot one, I like it but I thought the kick was kinda bad. After playing a few games with it I dont even notice its there. I shot my Spyder after this and didnt like it. I wont shoot anything els now. I also got to shoot an Impulse and Timmy and both had more kick. Well thats what It felt like to me.

Richy_C

09-03-2002, 05:12 PM

Have your LPR adjusted, if it's comparable to a Spyder, somethings wrong.

dew_dew_boy

09-03-2002, 05:20 PM

Really? I shot a 2k2 c&c angel and it had the same kick if not more. Also, its not like a fast jerk kick like my spyder, More of smooth kick as I would call it.

But yes, I will have my LPR looked at just in case.

Crash Danger

09-03-2002, 05:52 PM

My paintball gun's "kick" doesn't seem to affect my aim at all... Am I crazy or just really strong? :confused:

ImpYa

09-04-2002, 04:32 PM

Okay so if i set a gun at 20bps im only going to be pulling 10bps? Thats how im understanding it.

dew_dew_boy

09-04-2002, 04:45 PM

What he said is BS. My Angel is a LP Angel. I loaded up 20 balls and shot them vibrating my finger really fast, Kinda hard to explain, and shot all 20 of them in a little over 2 seconds. My friend used a stop watch to time me.

So if I can shoot my Angel for 2 seconds and get out 20 balls Im happy.

Oyeah, Doesn't this prove him wrong?

Richy_C

09-04-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by dew_dew_boy
What he said is BS. My Angel is a LP Angel. I loaded up 20 balls and shot them vibrating my finger really fast, Kinda hard to explain, and shot all 20 of them in a little over 2 seconds. My friend used a stop watch to time me.

So if I can shoot my Angel for 2 seconds and get out 20 balls Im happy.

Oyeah, Doesn't this prove him wrong?
No, it prooves you don't know how long a millisecond is.

dew_dew_boy

09-04-2002, 06:40 PM

Ok then I don't get what the heck he is trying to say then. I'm happy with shooting 20 balls in 2 seconds. So freaking what if I can shoot 19 or 22 balls in 2 seconds. Thats still a lot of balls.

Richy_C

09-05-2002, 01:05 PM

You completely missed the entire point of this thread. The whole point is that the lower your pressure, the longer your bolt has to stay forward, slowing down the guns cycling speed, and indirectly slowing it's MROF, so that this LP business is just hype.

elTwitcho

09-05-2002, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by dew_dew_boy
Ok then I don't get what the heck he is trying to say then. I'm happy with shooting 20 balls in 2 seconds. So freaking what if I can shoot 19 or 22 balls in 2 seconds. Thats still a lot of balls.

Richy is correct, you did completely miss the point. I also noticed you use an intelifeed and are therefore claiming to have gotten 20 bps on a revvy. I would like to take this moment to forward the assertion that you are either flat out lying or your testing methods are so severly flawed that your results are inadmissible to this discussion. Either way, what you claim makes no difference to this thread since it obviously is not true

Richy_C

09-05-2002, 06:20 PM

He said twenty balls in 2 secounds, not 1.

dew_dew_boy

09-05-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Richy_C
He said twenty balls in 2 secounds, not 1.

:nod:

It was a little over 2 seconds.

:nod:

elTwitcho

09-05-2002, 08:14 PM

I apologize since I obviously cannot read.

And still, you have your angel operating at low pressures and you can fire roughly 9 balls per second... that doesn't really have any bearing to this discussion since that is well below the optimum performance of almost any electropnuematic marker. Once you get into the 13s with a non force feed system a shorter dwell and longer bolt open will make a significant difference, as the numbers illustrate.

Again I apologize for my lousy reading skills

tourny_wannabe

09-06-2002, 05:09 PM

hmmmmm, i may be wrong, but the people that are using the GZ or any timmys that have the sob as an lp bps arguement arnt seeing that , that particuler board is capable of 66.66 and twitch is talking about capped boards..........im confused thats not right

hard topic blahhh

and twitch i thought your timmy was lp

elTwitcho

09-06-2002, 05:49 PM

I'm not talking about capped boards at all, I'm talking about marker cycling times.

My Intimidator runs at around 250 psi when it can easily go as low as 170 psi. I do this to run a shorter dwell, which I have noticed makes a difference

tourny_wannabe

09-07-2002, 06:18 AM

but if a lp gun had a SOB like the timmy then your bps arguement doesnt matter there?

im trying to understand this.....

elTwitcho

09-07-2002, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by tourny_wannabe
but if a lp gun had a SOB like the timmy then your bps arguement doesnt matter there?

Dude, it has nothing to do with the board. Nothing. Not one slight minute itty bitty teeny weenie bit. Nada, nothing, no bps caps turbo mode or anything like that is remtely relevant to the conversation.

dew_dew_boy

09-07-2002, 12:06 PM

Dude, your a dumb Butt. My LP Angel can shoot 13 BPS o yes it can.

And do you have any proof? NO! Do I ... NO! Because I've shot HP Angels and LP Angels and they are the exact same. So before you think this BS up maybe you should have shot both LP and HP on the same gun.

FrOnTMaN

09-07-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by FrOnTMaN
i dont think he was restating what was true and what wasnt. its a theory. doesnt mean its true, but it gives its valid points, unlike you.
13bps isnt really all that fast, compared to the market at the moment.

tourny_wannabe

09-07-2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho

Dude, it has nothing to do with the board. Nothing. Not one slight minute itty bitty teeny weenie bit. Nada, nothing, no bps caps turbo mode or anything like that is remtely relevant to the conversation.

hmmmmmmmmm but what if the board could shoot 700 bps..................

anyways, so why you bring in the dwell and the capped board at 12 bps, im saying if the board isnt capped then the higher dwell wont matter rightttttttt.........?

hmmmm maby ill understand this in 4 years......

Richy_C

09-07-2002, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by dew_dew_boy
Dude, your a dumb Butt. My LP Angel can shoot 13 BPS o yes it can.

And do you have any proof? NO! Do I ... NO! Because I've shot HP Angels and LP Angels and they are the exact same. So before you think this BS up maybe you should have shot both LP and HP on the same gun.
Umm, whats your point?

elTwitcho

09-07-2002, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by tourny_wannabe

hmmmmmmmmm but what if the board could shoot 700 bps..................

anyways, so why you bring in the dwell and the capped board at 12 bps, im saying if the board isnt capped then the higher dwell wont matter rightttttttt.........?

hmmmm maby ill understand this in 4 years......

No dude, like I said, stop thinking about the boards entirely. If the board is capped at 5 trillion bps the gun still wont shoot that. However, if the board is capped at 90 bps you can reach the markers physical limits. What I propose (and it's actually true) is that a markers physical rate of fire limit will increase the shorter the dwell you use since you are shortening the amount of time it takes for the gun to cycle.

And dew_dew, the fact that you can shoot 13bps doesnt really mean anything at all. Please refrain from posting in this thread since it's obviously well above your comprehension level. Any more pointless posts and they'll be deleted without notification

elTwitcho

09-07-2002, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by dew_dew_boy
So before you think this BS up maybe you should have shot both LP and HP on the same gun.

I have already stated in this very thread that I have done that. As I said, don't post here again

VeNoM

09-07-2002, 09:04 PM

I understand the concept and all and it does make sense... I could see how it would slow down the cycling process and use more air... But honestly, who really needs to shoot faster than 15 bps? Thats just crazy and a waste of paint IMO... In your opinion twitch, what is the best pressure for speed and efficiency, what is your timmy running at?... sorry if you already said this, I haven't read all 6 pages of this thread :|

elTwitcho

09-07-2002, 09:07 PM

250 ish, and I notice that it does seem to shoot slightly faster (trust me, you really notice this on eye equipped markers) with a 14ms dwell than an 18 ms dwell. And it's not about shooting over 15 bps, it's a matter of if you're not using a force fed system you're going to get better results with a shorter dwell.

Ice

09-08-2002, 06:51 AM

Sticky? This should be a sticky...its important.

tourny_wannabe

09-08-2002, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by elTwitcho

No dude, like I said, stop thinking about the boards entirely. If the board is capped at 5 trillion bps the gun still wont shoot that. However, if the board is capped at 90 bps you can reach the markers physical limits. What I propose (and it's actually true) is that a markers physical rate of fire limit will increase the shorter the dwell you use since you are shortening the amount of time it takes for the gun to cycle.

im gonna go read it over agian.....

dew_dew_boy

09-08-2002, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
...With a lower pressure marker, you will absolutely have to use a higher dwell than with a higher pressure marker (well, almost always)...

Why's that?

This might sound dumb but here it goes.

I think you are trying to say that a LP guns bolt will move slower because of the operating pressure and how many MS the dwell is open???

Well the LP makes it so the bolt can move just as fast as a HP bolt but using less force.

Does that make any sense?

dew_dew_boy

09-08-2002, 10:50 AM

Another Q.

My Angels Dwell is set at 14 MS and its LP

So your trying to tell me that a HP Angel with a Dwell set at 14 will shoot faster than mine? Yes or No?

elTwitcho

09-08-2002, 11:58 AM

I am so getting frustrated with this...

YOU WANT TO USE THE SHORTEST DWELL POSSIBLE. I DON't GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOUR ANGEL RUNS AT, THE POINT IS THAT A HIGHER PRESSURE MARKER WITH A SHORTER DWELL WILL CYCLE FASTER.

Read that, then read it again. And before you post another question, read it a few more times. It's getting really frustrating repeating myself ten times

Ice

09-08-2002, 12:35 PM

shortest dwell means less time the bolt is open, which means a faster rof. If its set at 14 MS it's not gonna change running at LP or HP. Its SET at 14 MS, its gonna be open for 14MS. With a Higher pressure gun, You can set it at a fast time, meaning that the LP setup might not be able to go past say 10MS, With a HP gun it might be able to shoot faster say 8MS since it has more pressure, so it'll get to the bolt, and push the ball out faster since its of a higher pressure.

I get that part, but if its shooting at the same volicity, doesn't it take the same amount of gas?

Also, for a blow-back, the HP will push the bolt back faster then with a LP set-up, meaning faster ROF.

Richy_C

09-08-2002, 01:00 PM

Dude, dew dew, if your Angel runs at a lower pressure, you're going to need a higher dwell to get the same velocity as a high pressure Angel with low dwell. In any gun, to get the ball going speed V (hopefully 280 fps), you need a combination of P (Pressure) and D (dwell, open vavle time). Basically, P*D=V. If D=14ms, then P needs to meet somewhere around 250 PSI or higher on an Angel to equal optimum V, which is 280. So look at this, for your average Angel; P=250PSI, D=14: P*D=280 FPS. But, if P=300 PSI, then P*D=340 FPS. But if P=300 PSI, and D=10ms, then P*D=280 again.

That's what controls velocity, not the LPR pressure, but that can help. For the above example, just assume the LPR is set highenough to open the vavle. But, on guns like the Spyder, the LPR is a Spring, which controls the dwell for the most part, so the harder your spring, the more dwell your Spyder has, the faster the ball goes.

Twitch, am I explaining this right?

dew_dew_boy

09-08-2002, 01:13 PM

Yes I get what he is trying to say but I dont agree with it.

Richy_C

09-08-2002, 01:20 PM

MMk, but for the rest of us, the spoon does exist. Cept for twitch when he's reading that book of Holographic Universes, which he only picked up because he want'ed center folds that dance when you move them in the light :laugh:

VeNoM

09-08-2002, 05:00 PM

I have been trying to apply this theory to a cocker... So, would a lighter main spring and hammer with a lower cocking pressure slow down the cocker? It sounds like it would to me, but I am not all scientifical (yes, I made it up) like Richy is...

jfreak

09-10-2002, 03:09 AM

ElTwitcho,let me try and help. If I don't just say the word and I will shut up.
Lets go back to some simple physics. Force(F)*Mass(M)=Acceleration(A). Assuming everyone is using the same weight ball and same model gun, a gun that hits the paint with 200PSI will have to apply that force roughly twice as long as one that uses 400PSI to acheive the same velocity. That would have to be compensated for in dwell time. Remember, we are using the same paint, same gun, same barrel, same air system, etc, etc, only changing operating pressure. You only get 1000 milliseconds to play with in a 1 sec interval. It is conceivable you would notice a difference in rate of fire depending on dwell times, especially using an eye shooting at high ROF.
In the real world, there are a ton of variables that can alter that force on the ball, most noteable being valve design and barrel porting. In many cases you could eliminate that extra dwell time needed to operate at lower pressure just by switching to a barrel with a longer unported section.
Personally, in 4 years shooting a 'high pressure' led Angel, I have broken maybe 10 balls at the breach(not chops) With the amount of paint I have shot over those years, I would be willing to bet the majority of those balls were just defective and would have broken in most any gun. I see no need for low er pressure, unless you are achieving that by making your gun more efficient.
VeNoM, in your case, you would be lowering the spring rate and hammer weight to compensate for the lower operating pressure (try to think about how much pressure is needed to do the work in both scenarios), so it is possible that you may even gain cycling speed. In any case, unless your cocker has an electro conversion, I doubt you would see the difference with a typical cocker ROF.