whats wrong with spyders?

[Mentalmonkey10]

why do most people dislike spyders? its all your opinion, so go ahead and post.:)

[Air Profile]

The reason why some people dont like spyders is because of the blowback and low end quality they have. Also people dislike the electra because the rocking trigger on it cont reach 30 bps like it claims to be. Also the spyders dont have the same things that other high end markers have. Suck as regs, eyes, trigger frames, and grips, stok barrels, and thats about it. I think the best spyder for the price and what it is worth is the imagine. The imagine is fully upgradable, cheap, and a great all around gun for around $130 new, or $64 for refurbished.

[Mentalmonkey10]

well, people know that you can drill spyders for eyes, get a new trigger, barrel, and reg, and it would still cost less than some of these other "high-ends." Lets see...

refurb immagine-70
t-board w/ eyes-65
decent barrel-60
cp reg-60
egg-65
random stuff-30
home mods (ex. drilled block, polished internals)-5
total-355

ion-280
egg-65
random stuff-30
total-375

$20 difference
plus, with a spyder you get many more available mods that you can do.

[slaminator3323]

It will still have more kick, higher operating pressure, be a blowback among other things. It won't have as good efficiency for another.

[Mentalmonkey10]

good point.:o

[TheSpy11]

Could you have included an "all of the above" choice?

#1 problem for me is that they are made in Taiwan.

[Air Profile]

Originally posted by Mentalmonkey10
well, people know that you can drill spyders for eyes, get a new trigger, barrel, and reg, and it would still cost less than some of these other "high-ends." Lets see...

refurb immagine-70
t-board w/ eyes-65
decent barrel-60
cp reg-60
egg-65
random stuff-30
home mods (ex. drilled block, polished internals)-5
total-355

ion-280
egg-65
random stuff-30
total-375

$20 difference
plus, with a spyder you get many more available mods that you can do.


Refurbed imagines are $63 at actionvillage. So actually it is a $27 dollar difference. Anyway, other places with have cheaper prices. The cheapest would be to go on ebay ang get teh upgrades, but not the imaigne. The imaignes are only new or used on ebay so get the refurbed imagine at actionvillage.

[Mentalmonkey10]

to the spy 11

i did enclude an "all of the above" button, its called clicking on all the ones that you want. You can choose multiple answers.

to air profile

i didn't bother to look up all of those, i just knew the aproximate price. I don't include e-bay, because there are allways better prices. :)

[Dunty]

Well, I like Spyders, for the money, you can't beat a refurbed Imagine, but their design is inferior to so many markers(Electropneumatics), so, they are not a nice marker compared to most. They're a great marker to start out with, but if you get serious about playing, you'll need at least a cheap electropneumatic marker(Like the Ion, Wrath, or Promaster)

[Mentalmonkey10]

not arguing with that.:P

[Jaredistheman]

I like, most of the e-spyders are good for the price. There perfectly priced for people who pay for there own guns, and the parents don't just get them a 1500$ for there first time out.

[Dunty]

Originally posted by Jaredistheman
I like, most of the e-spyders are good for the price. There perfectly priced for people who pay for there own guns, and the parents don't just get them a 1500$ for there first time out.

....You just said the Electra was a good deal!


The power of Christ compells you! The power of Christ compells you!

[Codestar20]

Spyders are not intended to be "high end". They are entry level guns that can be upgraded to compete with high end.

What is the worst thing about Spyders? Metric fittings. Other than that, they are a great blowback gun.

Made in Taiwan? Where do you think that computer was made? It certainly wasn't here in Minnesota...or anywhere in the U.S. for that matter.

[TheSpy11]

I still give a leg up to companies that haven't outsourced their manufacturing. I generally try my best to support their business. If Spyders were made in the States, the price advantage they have wouldn't be significant enough to buy them anymore.



I don't expect computers to be made here in Minnesota since most electronics companies are foreign anyway. What I do expect is the American sport of paintball to have a few companies sticking around.

[IronCorps]

With a low pressure setup, including a lp bolt and magnum (or titanium) striker, the kick of the gun is virtually eliminated. Its just a fuzzy wobble rather than a violent jerk.

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
With a low pressure setup, including a lp bolt and magnum (or titanium) striker, the kick of the gun is virtually eliminated. Its just a fuzzy wobble rather than a violent jerk.
and still $100 more than an ion which will still have less kick.

sit down.

[IronCorps]

Well not everybody (such as myself) has access to HPA fill stations. Which is why people still use spyders. the operating cost and matenance costs are much lower.

As a general statement, i dont like EP's anyway. I'd take my Tippmann ProCarbine over an ion any day.

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
Well not everybody (such as myself) has access to HPA fill stations. Which is why people still use spyders. the operating cost and matenance costs are much lower.

As a general statement, i dont like EP's anyway. I'd take my Tippmann ProCarbine over an ion any day.
i ran my ion off of A/S c02 for 4 months on a bet. $40 for tank and A/S. worked fine. stock reg +-5 over the chrono.

operating costs nothing. lemme tell you what you need to maintain and operate your ion properly:
13-peice set of allens, 89 cents at Wal-Mart
Tub of Slick Honey: $10 at your local bike store for enough to last you all year.

lube once every couple outings and you're good. that's it.

take your tippy over any EP. that's your choice, and i won't stop you there. but in no way is the blowback superior to the EP. say what you want, the ion, a full EP gun, is now in competition with spyders and other low-ends. and dammit it is winning for one reason: it is the better design.

[IronCorps]

You go ahead and use your ion. We'll see whos gun lasts longer.

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
You go ahead and use your ion. We'll see whos gun lasts longer.
7 months without 1 single problem so far, yourself?

if you honestly have to resort to the reliability argument, long disproved, then you are truly on your last legs.
:)

[IronCorps]

My M98, 6 years, No Prolems At All.

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
My M98, 6 years, No Prolems At All.
good, just don't use it as an argument, because you'll lose every time.

[IronCorps]

How could i lose with reliability like that?

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
How could i loose with reliability like that?
very simple, 1 moving part w/lower op. pressure and smoother operation>2 moving parts with higher op. pressure and more violent operation.

not that hard.

oh, and btw, www.hop.com.

very helpful :tup:

[IronCorps]

Yeah sorry about my spelling, im trying to multi-task here.

A tippmann M98 has 6 moving parts including the trigger and sear. The recoil is nil.

If you say that a tippmann operating system is not smooth, than you must have never fired one. Its a nice smooth shot. Totaly controlable under high ROF.

Spelling error fixed /\ from last post

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
Yeah sorry about my spelling, im trying to multi-task here.

A tippmann M98 has 6 moving parts including the trigger and sear. The recoil is nil.

If you say that a tippmann operating system is not smooth, than you must have never fired one. Its a nice smooth shot. Totaly controlable under high ROF.

Spelling error fixed /\ from last post
buddy, i started out with a 98 for the first 6 months of my paintball career. its shot was anything but smooth. in fact i still have it, and can personally testify that my timmy, halfy cocker, 2 trixes, and ion are all worlds smoother than my tippy. less force used throughout the cycle+lighter cyclical weight=smooth operation. the tippman 98 custom has neither of the aforementioned characteristics stock. and when i got the RT i could barely control the gun.

[quote]A tippmann M98 has 6 moving parts including the trigger and sear. The recoil is nil.
let's break this down.
[b]The recoil is nil.
so you're saying it has absolutley zero recoil? nothing moves inside your gun? but then how does it fire? :idea:
A tippmann M98 has 6 moving parts including the trigger and sear.
i was speaking in terms of gun design, but fine. If you want to get nitpicky about it, i've still got you beat. Tippy: 6 parts in motion total. Ion: 3 parts in motion total, including trigger, bolt, and solenoid.

3 parts>6 parts

anything else?

[IronCorps]

Ok buddy listen, you cant stereo type the entire tippmann comany just becuase you got a faulty piece of equipment that you apparently didnt take care of. you cannot possibly think that an ion will outlive a tippmann...

now dont be a retard thinking that when i said 'recoil was nil' that i meant it was non existant. You know just as well as i do that i meant it was LOW. For god's sake be mature and professional.

[slaminator3323]

:popcorn:

[Dunty]

Originally posted by IronCorps
Ok buddy listen, you cant stereo type the entire tippmann comany just becuase you got a faulty piece of equipment that you apparently didnt take care of. you cannot possibly think that an ion will outlive a tippmann...

now dont be a retard thinking that when i said 'recoil was nil' that i meant it was non existant. You know just as well as i do that i meant it was LOW. For god's sake be mature and professional.


No stock blow-back willl handle well under high speeds, unless your high speeds are like 5....You would say that, but once you fired a high end marker, your mind would change, it sure changed my mind.

[IronCorps]

My icon can handle any speed i can pull, and/or some rebound (24) pretty easily. Ive fired the Ego and the DM4 before, nice and all, but i was not blown away or anything. Fast and low recoil...but so is my icon. And since NPPL is 15bps or lower.. nor problems.

[someday1188]

Originally posted by IronCorps
Ok buddy listen, you cant stereo type the entire tippmann comany just becuase you got a faulty piece of equipment that you apparently didnt take care of. you cannot possibly think that an ion will outlive a tippmann...

now dont be a retard thinking that when i said 'recoil was nil' that i meant it was non existant. You know just as well as i do that i meant it was LOW. For god's sake be mature and professional.
just don't know when to quit do you? :rolleyes:

Ok buddy listen, you cant stereo type the entire tippmann comany just becuase you got a faulty piece of equipment that you apparently didnt take care of. you cannot possibly think that an ion will outlive a tippmann...
#1: the hell i can't. the very design of the ion dictates that it will outlast the tippy.

#2: i take the best goddamn care of my guns out of anyone i know, so i will kindly thank you to shut the **** up in the matter. every single gun i have ever owned has been broken down, cleaned, lubricated, visually inspected for wear, reassembled, and test fired every after every single night of use. as a result i have changed about 1 oring out in total on all of my 5 guns.

#3: reading comprehension is your friend. if you would go back and for once read the post, you would see, plain as day, that nowhere did i say i received a defective product. i did say that my tippy kicked a noticeable and highly jarring amount at any reasonable speed.

get your facts straight then come back to me dumb ***.
now dont be a retard thinking that when i said 'recoil was nil' that i meant it was non existant. You know just as well as i do that i meant it was LOW. For god's sake be mature and professional.
you realize of course the room, or lack thereof, you have for calling me a retard right? i mean do you honestly grasp the concept of saying what you mean? please tell me the answer is yes so i'm not just wasting my keystrokes on another brainless fanboy moron :eyes:. but, i guess i just set myself up for disappointment with that particular question :|.

anyway, back to the point, if there ever was one to start with.

you speak of being professional and mature. well news flash ******, most professional and mature people say what they mean to aid in faster and more efficient communication :idea:. if you mean it has low kick, then say it has low kick. if you say it has no kick, then you better damn well mean that it has 0g of reciprocating mass. it's just that simple.
Originally posted by IronCorps
My icon can handle any speed i can pull, and/or some rebound (24) pretty easily. Ive fired the Ego and the DM4 before, nice and all, but i was not blown away or anything. Fast and low recoil...but so is my icon. And since NPPL is 15bps or lower.. nor problems.
vid or shens right now you fool. and i warn you, unless you're running a custom halfblock job with every internal possible ala eff's old spyder, get ready to have your face pwned into next year, because i will goldwave it, and i will rip your *** a new one if you are 1 ball under 24. keep in mind, eff's spyder, with all that custom milling to make it as fast as possible, could only do 16 with paint. with that in mind, good luck. i will enjoy watching this.

And since NPPL is 15bps or lower.. nor problems.
amazing. simply. truly. amazing.

now do you want get back to your hole? or do i have to keep doing what i do best?

the choice is yours.

[IronCorps]

I never said it had NO kick.

so i will kindly thank you to shut the **** up in the matter.

/\and you preach back at me for being improfessional?

The very design of the ion dictates that if you get one little piece of crap that doesnt belong in there, the gun dies. Unlike a tippmann which you can drop in the sand and still fire.

Even if i do only hit 23 during the vid shoot, you go right ahead and spread it over the net. Its still more than the 17bps stock ion, might not sound like much if you have an uped board, but mines a BB. ever heard of a blowback exceeding 20bps? Well, if not, then go play more recball or scenario ball.

You're playin with fire son, and your gunna get burned.

[someday1188]

I never said it had NO kick.
Originally posted by IronCorps
The recoil is nil.

please consult your local thesaurus before posting again.
/\and you preach back at me for being improfessional?
#1: i pride myself on being the best tech i know, and i some day hope to enter the teching feild working for the likes of Dye and Co. therefore it is easily understandable that i should take great offence to someone suggesting that i do not properly maintain my guns.
#2: once more, reading comprehension is your friend. if, once again, you would go back and at least try to use your apperently limited understanding of the english language to actually READ the post, you would see that nowhere did i call you improfessional. you said your gun had nil, or zero, kick. i called your bluff. you called me immature and unprofessional for calling said bluff, and then i pointed out to you that mature and professional people typically say what they mean to increase the efficiency of their communication.
The very design of the ion dictates that if you get one little piece of crap that doesnt belong in there, the gun dies. Unlike a tippmann which you can drop in the sand and still fire.
you can drop an ion in the sand too and it will still fire. that's kind of the purpose of having an interior bolt system that is protected from the elements. i don't know what you're getting at here. also, define one little piece of crap, keeping in mind that that same, one little piece of crap, will stop a tippy cold too if put in the right place.

you have no point, and all of your arguments have been shot down faster than a pilot episode of Welcome to the Neighborhood.

now shut up and get back into your hole.

*edit* ah, i see you chose to edit your post's original content while i was busy pwning you yet again. very well, i'll deal with this as well :).

Originally posted by IronCorps

Even if i do only hit 23 during the vid shoot, you go right ahead and spread it over the net. Its still more than the 17bps stock ion, might not sound like much if you have an uped board, but mines a BB. ever heard of a blowback exceeding 20bps? Well, if not, then go play more recball or scenario ball.
m-azing. alright, let's take this from the top.

Originally posted by IronCorps

Even if i do only hit 23 during the vid shoot, you go right ahead and spread it over the net. with pleasure. Its still more than the 17bps stock ion what's your point here, if any? are you trying to compare an electronically capped ion to your inferior mechanically capped blowback? that's just unfair, in fact, if i recall correctly, the stock icon board is capped at 13. but you know what? go ahead, use this argument, and use it often from here on in, because you only have till WC before it, too, becomes invalidated :devil2:, might not sound like much if you have an uped board, but mines a BB. finally he admits he has the inferior, crappier gun. just remember, admitting it is the first step to recovery. ever heard of a blowback exceeding 20bps? Well, if not, then go play more recball or scenario ball. lofflecopter@you. if anywhere the 20BPS spyder would exist in speedball, where speed of gun is a more necessary factor. but guess what, there isn't one to date! gee, i wonder why. maybe because blowbacks can't do 20? :idea:

You're playin with fire son, and your gunna get burned.
oh dear. *shakes head* apparently i pwned him so hard the poor lad became delusional and came under the impression that he had actually put a scratch in me. so sad, so sad. well you just stay put there son i'll go get some ice and aloe vera for those burns of yours.

[IronCorps]

Nil *ahem*a) There lacking of b) low amount c)nothing:zero

As you can see, i used option b. Now please, get off the literature subject.

It is true that if you got a particle of some kind lodged in the cvx valve of the tippmann, you could make it jam. But say, during dissasembly some alien object was stuck inside your ion. Unknowingly you reassemble it, play the next day, and boom, a dead, unfieldstrippable gun.

If the rear bolt of the M98 was flooded with sand and jammed up, all you have to do is manually slide the bolt around for a moment, to push the sand out of the way. Then resume play.
Now if you somehow managed to drop it in a body of water, the ion is toast. The board....
Tippmanns obviosly wont short out-no electronics obviosly.

So you trade speed for reliability.
Dont mess with me man. I know what im talking about.

[slaminator3323]

Yes, but what kind of retard drops their gun into water?

[IronCorps]

Ive seen it happen. After a rainy night, people trip and drop thier guns into puddles. All these dudes who tripped were renters so no worries. But if you ever came over the crest of a hill, and dropped your gun somehow, and it slid to the bottom into a puddle, (or something along those lines) that would probobly be the only way a player with an e-setup would submerge his/her marker.

[GranDream]

Originally posted by IronCorps
Nil *ahem*a) There lacking of b) low amount c)nothing:zero

As you can see, i used option b. Now please, get off the literature subject.

It is true that if you got a particle of some kind lodged in the cvx valve of the tippmann, you could make it jam. But say, during dissasembly some alien object was stuck inside your ion. Unknowingly you reassemble it, play the next day, and boom, a dead, unfieldstrippable gun.

If the rear bolt of the M98 was flooded with sand and jammed up, all you have to do is manually slide the bolt around for a moment, to push the sand out of the way. Then resume play.
Now if you somehow managed to drop it in a body of water, the ion is toast. The board....
Tippmanns obviosly wont short out-no electronics obviosly.

So you trade speed for reliability.
Dont mess with me man. I know what im talking about.


You talk about some pretty extreme circumstances, such as a mysterious particle of destruction and a gun somehow falling into a lake or something. Kind of far fetch'd. In the hands of a competent player, there's no reason both guns shouldn't last 6+ years.

[IronCorps]

Yeah, actually submerging a marker is pretty um, rare. But i had to come up with something to use as an example.

[YoBoneDaddy]

I've shot a Proto Matrix before and it was pretty sexy. However 2 seconds after I thought, "This is sweet" I thought "You'd have to be retarded to buy this for recball"

If you play recball a spyder is great. However if I had to purchase a new setup from scratch at the moment I'd get a Wrath or an AR-1 in a heartbeat.

[Crede777]

This is getting nowhere. I, for one, agree with Someday (like usual).

Look at it this way: $100 bicycles are great for recreational purposes. Some people go their entire lives with basic, or low end bikes and don't have a problem. But then there are the people who take bicycling very seriously and competitively. They buy $1000+ bikes. To the average joe, there may not be a huge difference between a highend bike and a lowend bike other than weight. But for those who know what they're looking for and know a great deal about the sport, there's a world of difference.

I went from an E-Spyder to a mech cocker. Mech cockers are better than Electronic Spyders. Why? Because they are lighter, more accurate, more efficient, ect. But then I got tired of my cocker always breaking down on me and my back block movement was generally annoying. Finally I got an Ego.

If the Ego and DM didn't seem like that big of a difference over shooting your lowend marker, you might want to shoot them again.

[IronCorps]

Ok well, ill say this, the high ends def had basicly no recoil, very impressive.

Accuracy just depends on barrel, idk where you were planning on going there.

I just felt it unnecessary to spend over a thousand dollars on a gun that can fire over 30 times a second when the tourny limits are 15 anyway, and my gun at those low kinds of speeds doesnt have hardly any muzzle climb.

[Crede777]

Originally posted by IronCorps
Accuracy just depends on barrel, idk where you were planning on going there.


Well you linked to some stupid article on Otter Customs site that says Spyders can go 40 bps, when EVERYONE knows they can't. So I'm gonna link to a site which says Cockers are the "most accurate markers in the world." Even though EVERYONE knows that's not true.

[IronCorps]

no marker can actualy fire 40bps ...considering that no loader feeds that fast.

If you actually had the time to work out all the physics, the bolt, striker, and valve system of a blow back can in fact, cycle at a max of 40 times per second, deliver enough gas to accel the ball the required speed, and fully recock. Its not all that unbelievable. really its not.

[Mentalmonkey10]

Originally posted by IronCorps
no marker can actualy fire 40bps ...considering that no loader feeds that fast.

If you actually had the time to work out all the physics, the bolt, striker, and valve system of a blow back can in fact, cycle at a max of 40 times per second, deliver enough gas to accel the ball the required speed, and fully recock. Its not all that unbelievable. really its not.

1) q-loader can. watch this the spead one and you will believe in the goodness of the Q:D. http://qloader.com/info/movies.html

2) It's plausible, but if your life dream is to get a marker to fire 40bps you really need a life to dream in. If that makes sence. I mean, it would be nice, but it would be more of something to show your friends.

3) What did i do, i made this monster that i can not stop, i am really on a streak of doing this. WHY?:(

[ta2maki]

Originally posted by Crede777


Well you linked to some stupid article on Otter Customs site that says Spyders can go 40 bps, when EVERYONE knows they can't. So I'm gonna link to a site which says Cockers are the "most accurate markers in the world." Even though EVERYONE knows that's not true.
Originally posted by IronCorps

no marker can actualy fire 40bps ...considering that no loader feeds that fast.

If you actually had the time to work out all the physics, the bolt, striker, and valve system of a blow back can in fact, cycle at a max of 40 times per second, deliver enough gas to accel the ball the required speed, and fully recock. Its not all that unbelievable. really its not.


Uh guys. I just did 50.

Spyder doing 50cps (http://media.putfile.com/PICT6862)

Believe it!
http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335649

[IronCorps]

uh guys, i just did 50

dude that was frickin sweet. You need to put a bandit (or delrin) bolt and titanium striker in there to get rid of some of that recoil. That biyotch was bouncing all over the table. Still, that was mighty-impressive comrade.

[slaminator3323]

I'm wondering how many of those were full cycles though. Also we all know spyders can cycle that fast we are talking about bps.

[splatmania]

hey dunty i know somthing that can beat the refurbished imagine THE GAME FACE VEXOR EYE at amazon.com for 130.00 with free shipping ;)

[ta2maki]

Originally posted by IronCorps


dude that was frickin sweet. You need to put a bandit (or delrin) bolt and titanium striker in there to get rid of some of that recoil. That biyotch was bouncing all over the table. Still, that was mighty-impressive comrade.

It already has a bandit bolt and a Dark Horizon striker. Remember when it's going that fast, you have a huge blast of air coming out of the barrel

[Mentalmonkey10]

Thats awsome, but very impractical. If my math is better than my spelling than lets see... at 50 bps and 300 fps you have a ball every 0.24 inches. It would really suck to get bunkered by him.:(

[GranDream]

So, uhhh, what does this have to with what's wrong with Spyders?

[Mentalmonkey10]

Nothing, they were talking about that vid. and i just decided to throw that in.:P

[pb4fun]

Someone at my field took something out of their tipmann 98 and made it something like that. Preatty much it was just air going into the marker. There was no trigger function.

[IronCorps]

Well you linked to some stupid article on Otter Customs site that says Spyders can go 40 bps, when EVERYONE knows they can't. So I'm gonna link to a site which says Cockers are the "most accurate markers in the world." Even though EVERYONE knows that's not true.

hey wait, i just realized how badly that new vid ownd you.

[splatmania]

lol how can you prove that that is 50 cps that looked pretty slow for 50 cps :laugh: any way i dont think half the time it was cycling fully and with that much kick you would be bouncing all over the place :rolleyes:

[slaminator3323]

He may have been shooting 50cps, but cps doesn't mean full cycles.

[ta2maki]

Originally posted by Mentalmonkey10
Thats awsome, but very impractical. If my math is better than my spelling than lets see... at 50 bps and 300 fps you have a ball every 0.24 inches. It would really suck to get bunkered by him.:(

Your math isn't better tha your spelling at 50bps and 300 fps you would get 6 feet. In one second, the first ball would travel 300 feet you have 49 balls equally spaced out following the first ball 6X50=300.

If you want a ball every .24 inches you would have to shoot 15000bps.

[ta2maki]

Originally posted by splatmania
lol how can you prove that that is 50 cps that looked pretty slow for 50 cps :laugh: any way i dont think half the time it was cycling fully and with that much kick you would be bouncing all over the place :rolleyes:

It looks slow because the video is shot a 30 frames per second. that means the bolt goes forward, back and forward again before the camera takes another shot. Also, because it's a blowback, it is cycling fully. Every time I stop, the marker recocks and stops. There really is no other way for the marker to partially cycle every other time or otherwise. It either fully cycles or stops cycling. "Electronic" blowbacks are still very much mechanical.

[slaminator3323]

They don't have to fully cycle, anyways if you did have paint it would be much slower.

[splatmania]

this is stupid its not like its even usable :rolleyes: it bounces around to mutch and would break balls like crazy even if you had a hopper that could keep up with it

[IronCorps]

He has break beam eyes durrr:rolleyes:

[Mentalmonkey10]

Originally posted by ta2maki


Your math isn't better tha your spelling at 50bps and 300 fps you would get 6 feet. In one second, the first ball would travel 300 feet you have 49 balls equally spaced out following the first ball 6X50=300.

If you want a ball every .24 inches you would have to shoot 15000bps.
:censored: im a tard.:banghead: im just going to shut up and leave now. please don't make fun of me while i lay in my sorrow of bad math and grammar.:(

[lazyaznboi81]

can you honestly say that a tippman is better than an ion, or do you just not want to admit that the ion is better? and someday1188, behind the couch huh?well he wasn't there for me, you lucky son of a *****

[Sheps]

That 50 cps spyder would be pretty nice, the very fast forward and back motion of it's bolt would probably have a cancelling effect on recoil; it would still vibrate pretty bad, but it would be shootable.

And you would be very hard pressed to kill an ION with a dirt particle, the only possible way for dirt to get into the innards is for you to force-feed dirt down the barrel while cycling the marker.

I would also like to point out that you can theoretically water-proof a gripframe, so even water can be stopped from damaging the marker.

[someday1188]

here we go again.

Nil *ahem*a) There lacking of b) low amount c)nothing:zero

As you can see, i used option b. Now please, get off the literature subject.
It is true that if you got a particle of some kind lodged in the cvx valve of the tippmann, you could make it jam. But say, during dissasembly some alien object was stuck inside your ion. Unknowingly you reassemble it, play the next day, and boom, a dead, unfieldstrippable gun.

If the rear bolt of the M98 was flooded with sand and jammed up, all you have to do is manually slide the bolt around for a moment, to push the sand out of the way. Then resume play.
Now if you somehow managed to drop it in a body of water, the ion is toast. The board....
Tippmanns obviosly wont short out-no electronics obviosly.

So you trade speed for reliability.
Dont mess with me man. I know what im talking about.
aaaaaand breaking down:

Nil *ahem*a) There lacking of b) low amount c)nothing:zero

As you can see, i used option b. Now please, get off the literature subject.
that's 2 for three there genius, you still lose :rolleyes:.

oh, and BTW, i don't know what kind of crackhead dictionary you're using, but here are the results from dictionary.com:
entries found for nil.
nil (nl)
n.

Nothing; zero.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/lri2x97/crash.gif
NEXT.
It is true that if you got a particle of some kind lodged in the cvx valve of the tippmann, you could make it jam. But say, during dissasembly some alien object was stuck inside your ion. Unknowingly you reassemble it, play the next day, and boom, a dead, unfieldstrippable gun.
any how, pre, would you do that? there are only 3 parts to the ion, pretty hard not to notice something in there. and even if there was something stuck in there, it's a 5 minute dissasembly tops and you're back out playing. good luck doing that with a 98. a full dissasembly could take 20 mins trying to get everything in the right place and then sealing the body back up. no such trouble with an ion. 3 pieces that fit/screw into each other, slide the body on, and tighten everything down. nothing more.

the ion, if it even managed to, by some sadistic twist of fate, get something lodged in its inner workings that would cause its operations to cease, would be much faster to clean out/reassemble/get going again than any 98.

NEXT.

If the rear bolt of the M98 was flooded with sand and jammed up, all you have to do is manually slide the bolt around for a moment, to push the sand out of the way. Then resume play.
Now if you somehow managed to drop it in a body of water, the ion is toast. The board....
Tippmanns obviosly wont short out-no electronics obviosly.
riiiiiiight. look, you go put sand in your bolt, then grind it in, see what happens. i'm sure your valve will absolutley adore you by the end of the day.

as for the water issue, i have dropped my ion in puddles. i wasn't worried. the body keeps the bolt/firing assembly dry, and the grips keep the electronics dry. worst comes to worst you take off the battery and let the board air out, no harm done. a 98 on the other hand, will rust when exposed to water. trust me, i have personal experience in this matter.

ion>tippman even in water.

NEXT.
So you trade speed for reliability.
ummmm, no. you trade a crappy gun for a better, faster, lighter, and more reliable gun. and that's about it.

NEXT.
Dont mess with me man. I know what im talking about.
i can assure you, Ironcorps, that at this point i am absolutley trembling in my sandals. because you have such an invincible argument and all :rolleyes:

NEXT.
no marker can actualy fire 40bps ...considering that no loader feeds that fast.

If you actually had the time to work out all the physics, the bolt, striker, and valve system of a blow back can in fact, cycle at a max of 40 times per second, deliver enough gas to accel the ball the required speed, and fully recock. Its not all that unbelievable. really its not.
a qloader has been proven to go as high as 55 in bursts, so yes it actually would be possible to get a loader to do that, just not for a very long time.

once again iron, you speak of physics. so i'm just going to let my previous argument do the talking for me:
i don't think you quite grasp the physics involved in moving an object as large as a blowback striker/bolt assembly, which, as lightened as it may be, will be invariably much heavier than the recip. mass of a high end gun. so the only way to achieve such speeds is to use a very heavy mainspring, lighten the internals as much as possible (though they will still be relativley heavy by neccessity of design), and run a very high pressure through the gun.

the strains this kind of operation at this kind of speed puts on the regulators are astronomical. no offense, but i honestly doubt that you fully grasp the logistics involved in keeping a gun cycling, much less shooting, at 50 CPS (i truly mean no offense here, it's just that the lower end crowd usually operates at a lower speed, and therefore is unconcerned with things such as regulator recharge speeds). hell i doubt even a 2-liter could sustain that for longer than a couple of seconds!

the problem with blowbacks is that, even with their astronomical cyclical speeds, they simply cannot fire a ball due to an operational design flaw. this flaw is that in a blowback 90% of the air is diverted and directed back against the bolt to recock it. while this may look cool and cause incredibly high cyclical rates, it becomes a double edged sword in that it takes that air away from the paintball.

let's put it this way, the faster a blowback goes, the more air is needed to sustain that incredible rate of cycles. and since we only have a certain amount of air, the air that would normally be used in firing the ball is taken away and redirected against the hammer as the regulator starts to fall behind under the enoumous strain of sustaining such an unbelievable rate of cycling. so basically, because blowbacks are inefficient by design, once you get past 18 or so on most blowbacks, the reg starts to struggle, air is diverted from firing the ball to recocking the gun, and dropoff is noticed. and even if you could find a loader that could keep up with 50CPS, it'd be a cold day in hell if you ever managed to get a ball out of the barrel.

air is not infinite, and neither is a regulator recharge rate. you might have 3000PSI in your tank, but your regulators must bring that down to an operable pressure for it to even become useful. and as you use up that air while firing, the reg must rechage itself with fresh air. however, at the extreme cyclical rates that a blowback can achieve, the air being used up begins to exceed the reg's capacity to recharge and thus more and more air goes down the path of least resistance, in the blowback's case that is against the striker and not down the barrel. thus rendering the blowback unable to effectivley fire a paintball at those speeds and reducing those cyclical rates, as awe-inspiring as they may be, to just that, cyclical rates.

i have thought about it very much, and i have arrived at this conclusion. that video, as cool as it may be, proves nothing that wasn't already known.

blowbacks can cycle incredibly fast, we already knew that. the problem most people seem to have with this is that they make the grave mistake of confusing a cycle, with a shot.


sorry iron. but you keep speaking of physics. really, the physics dictate that he cannot fire a successful shot due to the lack of air being diverted to the ball by the valve. it may be enough to keep the gun cycling, however raggedly, but it is simply nowhere near what would be required to fire a ball at any decent speed and cycle the gun anywhere close to that rate at the same time.

NEXT.
Uh guys. I just did 50.

Spyder doing 50cps (http://media.putfile.com/PICT6862)

Believe it!
http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=335649
hooray, you made a spyder do 50 CPS. would you like a cookie?

NEXT.
hey wait, i just realized how badly that new vid ownd you.
consider this a reversal.

NEXT.

can you honestly say that a tippman is better than an ion, or do you just not want to admit that the ion is better? and someday1188, behind the couch huh?well he wasn't there for me, you lucky son of a *****
of course, i would have been lost without your sage advice! how could i have continued without those inspiring, factually backed-up words?!
can you honestly say that a tippman is better than an ion, or do you just not want to admit that the ion is better?
such brilliance! such delicacy of words! you, sir, truly are a debate master.

look, assclown, i don't know who the **** you think you are, but let me give you this little token of advice: i don't need your little punk *** coming in here and saying i'm "hiding behind the couch." i would've been here long ago, but i didn't want to look like a total ********* by upping an old thread (coincidentally, this is where you come in)

in an argument like this, i don't need luck to win, and i certainly don't need a little piss-bag like yourself telling me i'm hiding when in reality i'm trying to avoid breaking the unwritten forum rules. so why don't you do us all a favor and sit the **** down and shut your mouth while the big boys are talking.

NEXT.

[someday1188]

That 50 cps spyder would be pretty nice, the very fast forward and back motion of it's bolt would probably have a cancelling effect on recoil; it would still vibrate pretty bad, but it would be shootable.
but the thing is, the spyder only has one moving mass going back and forth. i think you're mistaking cockers at high speeds with spyders at high speeds. cockers have 2 masses moving in opposition to each other, therfore much of the kick is cancelled out and the cocker merely vibrates a bit at high speeds. the spyder, on the other hand, has nothing to cancel its kick out as it is only one mass moving in one direction. so if anything, i believe the spyder would be jumping around quite a bit at high speed, unlike the mere vibration you described.

And you would be very hard pressed to kill an ION with a dirt particle, the only possible way for dirt to get into the innards is for you to force-feed dirt down the barrel while cycling the marker.
troof.

I would also like to point out that you can theoretically water-proof a gripframe, so even water can be stopped from damaging the marker.
troof.

[IronCorps]

awww, look at him whine guys. aint it so cute? ta2maki ownd him so bad he has resorted to rewinding the thread to past arguements to make it look like he still knows what hes talking about. lmao.

[slaminator3323]

That was beautiful someday, brings meaning to a somewhat boring life. Now Ironcorps, by now most people could care less as to what you think everyone but you seems to think someday is right and many people have probably and are ignoring you, so just shut up.

[IronCorps]

I think i shall. Im quite done with this thread. Only people posting are whiney ion owners anyway.

[splatmania]

u guys must get realy bored lol plz let this thread die

[Dunty]

Ironcorps, Ion owners are smart,what's wrong with getting a cheap electropneumatic? Most people would think that's smart..


Someday, just get rid of this...They try to avoid arguments by insulting you..Someday is one of the best reasons to be here...Learn something, the owning stick doesn't hurt that bad.

That video proves nothing, wow, he made it do that, it's not practical, speeds are only good if they can actually be used on the field.

[Algernon]

how is ta2maki's spyder not pratical on the field, unless your talking about iron's clone? ramping spyders can be very good performers. toss in a 20 gram delrin hammer, lower the operating pressure to below 400psi (AMGs like ta2maki's may already be at sub 400psi) and that spyder will have less kick then my angel and shoot just as fast.

[slaminator3323]

He was talking about 50bps wouldn't be pratical.

[Algernon]

what the hell kind of point was that? ta2makis is not going to shoot the thing 50bps, he's going to shoot, and does shoot it, in the 20s like he stated eairler. :confused:

[someday1188]

how is ta2maki's spyder not pratical on the field, unless your talking about iron's clone? ramping spyders can be very good performers. toss in a 20 gram delrin hammer, lower the operating pressure to below 400psi (AMGs like ta2maki's may already be at sub 400psi) and that spyder will have less kick then my angel and shoot just as fast.
even so (and i'm not even going to start on the logistics of a delrin hammer), straight ramping=illegal in case you haven't noticed. PSP is legal in some cases; however, if you want something to play PSP with, buy an ion. comes stock PSP-ready, with very little kick, and will cost less in the end than a comparable spyder.

and, for the record, any stock properly tuned angel should have much less kick than any spyder without HEAVY modifications (ala' halfblocking, valve mods, spimmying, ect.).

just not practical.

*edit*
what the hell kind of point was that? ta2makis is not going to shoot the thing 50bps, he's going to shoot, and does shoot it, in the 20s like he stated eairler. :confused:
then what was the point of the video in the first place? we're going in circles on that point anyways.
he's going to shoot, and does shoot it, in the 20s like he stated eairler.
on ramp, perhaps (though i doubt it. you'd prolly have some dropoff issues). on semi, no. (once again i'm not even starting on the finger speed argument here).

[Algernon]

ramping illegal? in what context? tourney? i really don't give a damn if ramping (PSP NXL or otherwise) is or is not allowed in a tourney setting. i thought we were discussing rec play? my field happens to allow ramping and i do enploy it along with everyone else.

and, for the record, any stock properly tuned angel should have much less kick than any spyder without HEAVY modifications (ala' halfblocking, valve mods, spimmying, ect.).

i fail to see your point. yes, a stock properly tuned angel will have much less kick than any spyder without heavy modificatons. we already established this, and it's very obvious. why reiterate it? i hardly consider a LP valve and delrin or nylon hammer to be "heavy" modifications too. as far as angels go... have you ever shot any of the old HP angels (LED, LCD and IR3)? those markers have op's in the 800s and some pretty hefty hammers. from what i have seen the HP angels do have less kick than ta2maki's spyder. then again, what's the cycling mass on that spyder? 60 grams?

my point is this: you can make a spyder into a very fast shooting marker AND there are effective methods for reducing kick. yes delrin hammers are extremely difficult to manufacture in large quanities while keeping the tight tolerances needed to make the product remotely effective. this is beside the point; reducing cycling mass is a key step in reducing kick.

i agree with you on the ion. i'd also like to add that an AR-1, odyssey O2 ect. with NXL and PSP ramping board will offer similar performance and value. this isn't about value or bang for your buck (it could be if you want it to. i have an argument prepared for that), but about the technical merits of the blowback design. you calim to be a tech, i don't see how this could have illuded you. LP valves, delrin/nylon hammers and ramping T-boards aren't THAT expensive. there is no harm is dropping $200 in new and used parts into a spyder. i enjoy the performance return i get and thrill of truning a mundane peice of crap into a ripper. the technical knowledge gained is also worth something.

[splatmania]

hmmmmm.... ok so every one agree's that 50 bps isn't practical,but around 20bps is i agee with that but how much kick are we talking about shooting that gun at 20 bps ... when you can get a gun that can do 20 bps and have very little kick for around the same price ? tell me if im wrong i am pretty new to paintball and am not trying to start a flame fest

[pbplyer_4life]

yay ions>spyders i have a spyder but i know that ions are better i used a friends

[splatmania]

yep :D

[YoBoneDaddy]

yay ions>spyders i have a spyder but i know that ions are better i used a friends

Ions look cool and all but I'd be terrified of it breaking and me having no chance of being able to fix it myself. The WORSE thing that could happen to my Spyder is that the EFrame could die. I can replace the solenoid, cap or board (get a t-board) easily. Anything else is just an o-ring usually.

To me that gives me more piece of mind. I'd rather have a Spyder that breaks down 5 times as much as an Ion than an Ion that is going to die forever the 1 time it does. Really the only thing differentiating the Spyder and Ion are the smoother operation and less kick. Lower the pressure and you'll take care of a little of both.

Ion is great if you're breaking into the tournament scene or you take pball pretty seriously, otherwise a Spyder is good enough.

[slaminator3323]

Heh fixing an Ion is about as easy as fixing a spyder. Most of the problems are solved with a new battery or o-rings, maybe a hose.

[YoBoneDaddy]

Well my other reasoning is that I built my E-Spyder with 45 bucks Canadian lol. Plus it has a TES frame which has a 20 bps board with the ability to add eyes. Definitely not on par with an Ion but no slouch either :)