Changing the definition of "High End Semi"

[Ebonclaw]

Well, I think we all agree a Viking falls into this category. My question would be, do you feel a $800 Spyder or similar (one that is highly upgraded) falls under the defintion of "High end semi"? Don't tell me a blowback can't be a high end semi because that's exactly what a Viking is.
So.....can I post my $800 Shutter in High End Semi, or do I have to use Blowback forum?

[FinnMcKool]

very good question i know alot of ppl that spent tons of money trickin out there sptders/pihranas i think they shoud .

[Ebonclaw]

Well, this thread seems to be getting a lot of viewing, but no replys.....wonder why that is?

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
Well, I think we all agree a Viking falls into this category. My question would be, do you feel a $800 Spyder or similar (one that is highly upgraded) falls under the defintion of "High end semi"? Don't tell me a blowback can't be a high end semi because that's exactly what a Viking is.
So.....can I post my $800 Shutter in High End Semi, or do I have to use Blowback forum?

No, an 800 dollar Spyder is not a high end semi, and a Viking is also not a blowback, it's more like a bushmaster, in an AKA body. Sucka!

[Ebonclaw]

Sorry Twitch, but technicaly the Viking IS a blowback.

[elTwitcho]

Your information is out of date amigo

[MINDofSIN]

Yeah. The Viking is open bolt but it is NOT blowback.

I think one of the earlier prototypes was a stacked tube design with a Centerflag frame...I don't know for sure...

[Ebonclaw]

So the early version WAS a blowback. Shoot, why doesn't someone tell me these things? Anyway....it's still open bolt.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
So the early version WAS a blowback. Shoot, why doesn't someone tell me these things? Anyway....it's still open bolt.

O course it's open bolt, open bolt is the wave of the future. But you can have both open bolt guns that are high end (Angel) and low end (Brass Eagle Samurai)

[Ebonclaw]

ANYway, how can someone spend $300 on a cocker and it's a "high end semi" but not $800 on their Spyder and have it be called a "high end semi." Heck, all I want to do is have my gun clasified as a high end semi so I can post my pic there!

[MINDofSIN]

My Spyder is TRICKED OUT!!! ITS SO GRATE! I PUT A NEW SNIPER BARREL ON IT! IT'S HIGH END.

That's one side of the argument. I do believe your electronic Spyder should be classified as High End. I'm neutral in this thread.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
ANYway, how can someone spend $300 on a cocker and it's a "high end semi" but not $800 on their Spyder and have it be called a "high end semi." Heck, all I want to do is have my gun clasified as a high end semi so I can post my pic there!

lol, it depends really on your philosophy. I personally don't believe a spyder is ever gonna be a high end semi, some people do. Just as I don't think if you put 80 thousand dollars into suping up a Honda Civic will make it a high end car. It's still an ugly shatty car, just one that goes fast.

My problem with spyders, is that they kick more than I like to see, and I don't like having to rely on a sear, I trust pnuematic cycling much more than a sear/spring combo. But that's just me, if you're happy with your gun, more power to you

[UTLadiesMan]

I say no for logistic reasons only. If we classify all blowbacks as low end, it makes it easier. If some Spyders are high end, and others are not, where do we draw the line? If we say it's a spyder with an electric grip then those electric black draguns are high end. There really is no clear divide, so we can't classify it. If we start allowing tricked spyders to qualify, then slowly everyone will call their spyders high end. Start with yours, then go down a step, then another, then another, soon we have people buying a stock compact and saying "I just got one of the best guns available, it's high end!", then i'll be forced to smack them around, and I don't want to hurt anyone....

[davkad]

timmy are also nice and quite. i love them.
but still... that's an electropneumatic.

i dont think that we should allow any lower end semi's to be classified as "high-end" because they aren't high-end stock.

personally i dont mind the blowback, i would rather put a lot of aftermarket parts on my spyder, and have it be a performer.. but that's until i really tried any other guns. now i realize that i'd rather have a cocker over a spyder with 500 bucks into it...

even though it's debatable that a efficient upgraded/modified spyder would be as good. it always has the rep of a low-end gun, and will not be in the same "class" as the cockers and mags on sight.

as twitcho said, you could put 8k into a honda... but in the end, it's still a honda. you could put the same amount of money+the original cost of the civic together, and buy something more respectable.

i dont know.

[-RuShPB227-]

Ebon, your spyder is the nicest spyder ive seen. It can be considered high end and a blowback in my opinion. In reality it is still an open bolt blowback, due to its design, even if its electronic. My impulse on the other hand...well....hehe..it kicks arse....:rolleyes: So does your spyder. Ebon, put TEAM SPHERICAL IMPACT in your sig, on the count of we are on the same team.

[VeNoM]

i think no matter what, it will always be a low end gun. although it can be a VERY NICE low end gun by putting tons of nice parts on it and no stock parts, it would be nice yet still low end. there is just no way to make it high end . . . you can try and pretend that it is high end but thats about as close as you will get. if you want to put your "high end" gun in some high end pic threads and such, stop pumping money into your spyder and buy a real high end. . . .

[133+ Player]

Yes it is and should. I have a good spyder and it is good.... lol hehe anyways with good stuff they r

[Pig-Demon]

i think it classifies as a high end. his spyder could probably out run many "high end" and electronic guns. just because it was born a peice of shyte doesn't meen it has to stay that way.

[Platinum4Life]

So you are telling me that Team Bad Company that plays with all Spyders XTRAs and a couple EM1's have low-end guns, yet they finish 4th in the PRO division at the World Cup. Yes I know EM1's are electro, but Xtras aren't and most members have an Xtra. Call them what you want, I don't really care, but if they are competing on the worlds highest level, then I give them some respect. Its the player that makes the gun not the gun that makes the player. So weather you have a Angel or a Spyder Compact shouldn't really matter. Paintball in my mind is about who ever has more skill is gonna win, not who ever has a bigger pocket.

[Pig-Demon]

Originally posted by Platinum4Life
So you are telling me that Team Bad Company that plays with all Spyders XTRAs and a couple EM1's have low-end guns, yet they finish 4th in the PRO division at the World Cup. Yes I know EM1's are electro, but Xtras aren't and most members have an Xtra. Call them what you want, I don't really care, but if they are competing on the worlds highest level, then I give them some respect. Its the player that makes the gun not the gun that makes the player. So weather you have a Angel or a Spyder Compact shouldn't really matter. Paintball in my mind is about who ever has more skill is gonna win, not who ever has a bigger pocket.

oh yeah.... i forgot to say that. would you say that those don't classify as high end guns?

[Paint Bulley]

How much kick are we talking about?????

I have shot a Spyder, and a few other blow back's and notice no kick.....

I mean when I think Kick, I dont think air powered marker.. ya know..

Is the kick reallly that bad that you can't control it without thinking about it?

I mean come on..

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by Platinum4Life
So you are telling me that Team Bad Company that plays with all Spyders XTRAs and a couple EM1's have low-end guns, yet they finish 4th in the PRO division at the World Cup. Yes I know EM1's are electro, but Xtras aren't and most members have an Xtra. Call them what you want, I don't really care, but if they are competing on the worlds highest level, then I give them some respect. Its the player that makes the gun not the gun that makes the player. So weather you have a Angel or a Spyder Compact shouldn't really matter. Paintball in my mind is about who ever has more skill is gonna win, not who ever has a bigger pocket.

First off, markers don't compete, people do. Second off, just because someone wins the world cup with Talons doesn't mean the Talons are "high end" markers. Don't give us "hey, they can do well at the world cup, so they must be high end" ****, because we both know that the player's win it, not their markers (like you stated) Any marker can take out a player, but some do it with more authority than others. We are strictly talking about the marker's ability here, and we're not putting the player's hands into it. If someone wins a tournament with only Talons, and they go around toting that their guns are the best because they won, I will laugh at them. It just doesn't make any sense logically.

[july_favre]

if you spent $800 into a spyder, who is going to give you half of that for a spyder? Most people would get an impulse for $400 rather than the spyder. Upgrading, is mostly just changing parts. If you were to put an angel frame and an electro ram, new valve then that making it a whole diffirent gun is one thing(im sure this is not what anyone means by upgraded) but putting on all blue stuff is something totally different.
PS: The "gun doesnt make the player" saying only goes so far.

[unreal7]

ebonclaw I would like to see your shutter plese post

[Richy_C]

Lets see, 800 spent on a spyder, or http://e-paintballoutlet.com/impblkrat1.jpg


I beleive the correct word is DOH!

[giblit]

how do you spend 800 dollars on a spyder...
everything including the screws would have to be after market

[Platinum4Life]

I personaly don't give a hoot if someone calls my tricked 98 a low end gun, they can call it all they want. What gives me pleasure is stepping on the field and winning against those kids with "Hi End" markers. A lot of new players these days see posts by some fo you and think a Hi End gun ensures that they are gonna own everyone that they play. Which is not the case at all. I have kids come up to me all the time and brag about how much they spent on their gun. Which in reality doesn't matter at all, skill is what matters.

[VeNoM]

Originally posted by Pig-Demon


oh yeah.... i forgot to say that. would you say that those don't classify as high end guns?


no i wouldnt still. they are good PLAYERS and they have nice guns (still lowends, but that doesnt really matter) as you and most people say, its the player, not the gun. so in this case they are good players using ok guns and manage to do good . . . i am not saying that they are not good guns, they are. i am just saying that a spyder or tippman or pirahnah will NEVER be a high end gun . . .

[jomama22]

now lets think logically here, u all say, "well if u spend 800 bucks in a spyder, why ddnt u just buy and impulse or used lcd" well think about it, most peeps that when they buy a spyder dont have 800 dollers, they may have roughly 200, then as they make money (jobs, bdays, christmas....) then they add too it and eventually spend 800 dollers, if a normal person were to wait to spend 800 bucks on a gun, then they would start paintball pretty late and most peeps would lose interest in the game/sport very quickly, so, a 800 doller spyder may not be as good as a stock 800 doller gun, but it would be one very kick *** spyder
o and, yea i would consider it a high end gun, dont care what u say, it is a high end gun, i go buy how something shoots, not cost or desighn, because one desighn may be better, but if u can make the worse desigh better then the good desighn with some tweeking and adding, then it is better, face it, u could have a stock angel and have somone with a 800 buck spyder, if the spyder shoots better (accuracy, fps consitancy, bps...) then ur spyder is obviously high end, diesighn doesnt make a gun high end or low end, performance does, period

[LordChaos]

Originally posted by Platinum4Life
So you are telling me that Team Bad Company that plays with all Spyders XTRAs and a couple EM1's have low-end guns, yet they finish 4th in the PRO division at the World Cup. Yes I know EM1's are electro, but Xtras aren't and most members have an Xtra. Call them what you want, I don't really care, but if they are competing on the worlds highest level, then I give them some respect. Its the player that makes the gun not the gun that makes the player. So weather you have a Angel or a Spyder Compact shouldn't really matter. Paintball in my mind is about who ever has more skill is gonna win, not who ever has a bigger pocket.

I don't care if they just became the first million dollar contract players for paintball, their still NOT high end markers. High end players, yes. but they are not using high end markers.

Case in point. Local feild used to hold an anual "shooters" compitition. Quite a few different tests and trials. The winner one year (and this was after it had been running a few years) was someone I played with. His marker? A Stingray. People he beat? Cockers, Mags, etc. Now, I don't care WHAT you do to a stingray, it's NEVER going to be a "high end" gun.

Personaly, my defenition of a high end gun is one that can compete, and do so WELL, (we are talking running with the big boys here) out of the box. One that if you bought, and never did anything (well, maybe a new barrel) to it, it STILL will outperform most, then it's a high end. Spyders are nice, and can be upgraded till theres no tommorrow, but would you want to use one stock?

[jomama22]

if u think about it, a out of thebox touney ready gun already has most of the componenets in it already upgraded and done better, for exapel a gn x 3, every part on it is upgraded to help performace so it is better then a stock cocker, so a tourney ready gun out of the bpx is a upgraded gun, and most guns that arnt upgraded but our tourney ready out if the bo (ex: inpulse, timmy, matrix.....) cost enough that if u pust that much into a spyder it could perrom that well, a stock impulse at cheepest costs 400 dollers now, since most spyders are the same, lets say u buy a spyder 200 for 105 bollers, put 295 dollers worth of upgrades into it and it could probly perform as well as a stock impulse, it probly wouldnt but it would easily be touney compatable out of the box it it came like that for the same price as a impulse, so when a gun is ready right out of the box, u have to think "could u upgrade a gun to make it this good with the same money???" amd most of the the time, the awnser is yes

[simon woodstock]

it's still not high-end. i replaced everything on my old spyder except for the frame (even had all upgrade screws) but when i had to make the decision whether to buy the booyahh or a bushy. i went for the electro. I thought i could upgrade my spyder to be the best marker on the field. i finally buckled and bought the bushy because there wouldn't be much more i could upgrade on my spyder. when I shot it once stock. i knew i could never upgrade my spyder enough to compete w/ a stock bushmaster.


I don't think BadCompany is such a great example of how a tricked spyder is just as good. they just have a good sense of humor. when their gun sputters they yell jokes about using spyders.

i don't think you can classify a gun by the price range. if angels sold for 20$ they would not be low-end electros.

[jomama22]

i never said spyders could ever be upgraded enough to perform as well as a "high end" gun, what i am saying is if it could and be upgraded to be better, then yes i would consider it a high eng gun

[Codestar20]

Boy these debates are fun aren't they? Some think upgraded spyders are high end, some think they are low end. It is pretty much opinion. I agree that spyders can compete at a high end level, though they are not high end guns and will not be high end guns. If you put $800 into a spyder, what do you have? A spyder. If you put $800 into a cocker, what do you have? A cocker. Same with any other gun. If you put that much into a spyder, it will perform nice but still be limited by blowback and springs and a sear. That is not like a pneumatically controlled gun. Pneumatically controlled guns do operate much much smoother. Sure there is some recoil to a blowback, it is minimal. Would you consider a closed bolt spyder to be a high end? It would operate the same way a cocker does.

[jomama22]

man, after u read all these u go one way then u think "well maby hes right " then u hear another argument and ur like " well that makes sence"......its all to confusing, but every oppinion has back up to it, and u cant really put a definition on this, everyone has different opinions about high end and low end guns. so the only definition is the one u belive to be true, not what other people think, but what u think.

[simon woodstock]

what can you put on a spyder to make it high end? what is the turning point? which upgrades increase performance so much that the spyder is in a whole new class.

and spyders have huge amounts of kick. shoot a spyder then a matrix. a spyder feels like a shotgun.
jomama you're putting spyders on the fence then saying they could go either way. all you're doing is moving the boundary between bottom of high-end, and top of low-end. i think that's kind of cheating because there's a big gap between the two.

[foxracer2269]

Suppose you were to get one of those R.A.I.L systems for your spyder would it then be considered a "HIGH END GUN". I personally think you should never up grade a spyder. WHY you ask.. because there will not be that much of a performance increase with. So you might as well save that 200bux you get from your birthday then however much money you get from the next holiday. Eventually you will save enough to get a "HIGH END GUN". elieve me it will be worth the wait

P.S. I used to believe a tricked spydercould out perform any stock "HIGH END GUN" till i tried one........NO WAY dont believe that any more

[Codestar20]

Simon- I guess I must be too used to shooting rifles and other firearms. Paintballs guns to me feel like they have very little recoil. I have not shot a matrix but I am sure it has way less recoil than a spyder.

[jomama22]

i never said anything about a syder ever being abel to become a high end marker, from my point, i know its impossible, what i am saying is, if there was any ratical way to make a spyder a "high end semi" then it would become one, but u also have to think, where is the line of high end and low end, or is there a gap, are cockers the start of high end????, are em1-s high end because the are punums(sp?) or are they low end cuz there spyders???? are electronic guns the start of high end guns???????u mioght say so, some may not, it all depends on how u consider, if i say a regular spyder (not a em1) shoot 20 bps with no bloback, have awsome consitancy, and have really good accuracy, i would have to belive its a high end semi, but since there our non to exist like that, they are low end, but this is all in my perspective

and what would u consider a em1?? high end cuz its a true eletric or low end cause its a spyder????
hmmmmmmmm, or is it one of those middle guns as simon woodstock says there is a middle????
so now there a semi high end semi catagory, o geezzz

[UTLadiesMan]

If electros are high end, then you can get a high end gun for 200. Does the Black Dragun really perform at that level?

[july_favre]

the em-1 is a high end piece of crap.

[Johnstarrwalkon]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, please.
I think that we're forgetting one VERY important part of paintball:

It's not the gun that makes the game,
It's the Player that makes the game.

[Mad Ogre]

I remember a long time ago I bumped into this fellow bragging about how trick his car is. Everything he did to it to modify it...

So I go out and take a look... at his Ford Escort GT. He EASILY spent more than TWICE what I had in my Supra. But it was STILL a Ford Escort.

At least thats what it looked like fading away in my rear view mirror.

:laugh:

[UTLadiesMan]

Originally posted by Johnstarrwalkon
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please.
I think that we're forgetting one VERY important part of paintball:

It's not the gun that makes the game,
It's the Player that makes the game.

Actually, that was mentioned several times in this thread, and is being ignored because this thread is about the guns. The thread wasn't "Am I a high end player if I'm tricked out and gun doesn't matter?" it's "Is my gun high end if it's tricked out and I don't matter?". It's not that the player isn't important, it's just that it doesn't pertain to this thread.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Platinum4Life
I personaly don't give a hoot if someone calls my tricked 98 a low end gun, they can call it all they want. What gives me pleasure is stepping on the field and winning against those kids with "Hi End" markers.

Boy people with that attitude flat out piss me off. I mean, how sick and tired can you really get of people who think

"Yeah man, I shot the angel guy with my tippman, he sucks"
but otherwise would have said
"Yeah he only won because he had to take his angel against the newbies"

Total catch 22, let's stop with that stupid crap. Just because you beat one guy using a high end marker, doesn't mean you could beat anyone with a high end marker, and vice versa. There is no skill testing question to buy your angel, you just need money, so who's to say the guy with the angel wasn't playing for his first time? Don't think it's so unlikely, my teamates dad thought paintball looked fun, so he bought an angel with A.I.R before even trying it. He didn't like the angel, so he bought a DYE cocker to replace it. He has played twice in his life. So please everyone, don't start talking smack against everyone with an expensive marker just because you happened to shoot one guy.

I mean, I'd sure look like a prick if I said "What I love, is going out against all the newbies with their M98s and lighting them up and mugging the renter kids, because they don't think my gun is 'high end' " Well it looks just as bad when you say it the other way around

[FinnMcKool]

What I love, is going out against all the newbies with their M98s and lighting them up and mugging the renter kids, because they don't think my gun is 'high end'


hahahaha thats good

[elTwitcho]

lol, that's gonna end up in someone's sig and I'm gonna look like a jerk :crazy:

Seriously though, please don't put that in your sig...

[Ebonclaw]

I have to agree with Twitch on this one. I get sick and tired of people bragging how they shot an Angel with a Talon or similar, ESPECIALLY in APG. Hey, if I shoot an Angel, all it means is I outplayed someone with a bigger wallet than me.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
Hey, if I shoot an Angel, all it means is I outplayed someone with a bigger wallet than me.

BING-freaking-O! :D

[FinnMcKool]

I agree.

It would be funny as hell if someone quoted that phrase in their signature. I won't though I'd probably get banned.

[Bunker_King]

Yeah, the whole idea of a newbie shooting a person with an angel and thinking they are better is just ridiculous. It only takes one shot to get someone out and everyone makes mistakes. Usually when i see a player w/ a high end gun go down to newbies, there was like a one on ten situationI feel bad for anyone who spends $800 on a spyder, that's recockulus!:eek: I used to have a electro spyder and I went for the bushmaster because it was made to be an electro unlike these grips they keep coming out with.:blah:

[Bunker_King]

It's true, it doesn't take anything to walk into a store a buy a $2000+ setup. The other day I was in my local store and there was this kid (about 16 or so) who was holding a custom made 2000 evolution autococker (made in belsales, england) w/ a matching freak and conquest nitro system. As I inquired about it, I found out that he had never played a day of paintball in his life and that his daddy had bought it for him for christmas. I'm not jealous, because I'm happy for him, but how is he going to look when we go out to the field and he doesn't even know how to air up his gun.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[elTwitcho]

That and not alot of people play full out against newbies. If I'm going out against new players, (usually with left over paint from practice) I pull a nice and fast 4 balls per second, and generally hang in the back. As a front player, that's not how I play if I try. So if you shot someone like me in a rec game, it's not a fair comparison because I'm not going full bore against you. Just another thing to keep in mind...

[133+ Player]

But ya gotta admit shooting someone with a high end gun or a high end player sure does feel good :)

[LordChaos]

Originally posted by elTwitcho
That and not alot of people play full out against newbies. If I'm going out against new players, (usually with left over paint from practice) I pull a nice and fast 4 balls per second, and generally hang in the back. As a front player, that's not how I play if I try. So if you shot someone like me in a rec game, it's not a fair comparison because I'm not going full bore against you. Just another thing to keep in mind...

Unfortunatly, there are more then just a few turny players who don't have that attitude. I'm not saying all, or even most, are bad, but that there are enough that can't seem to tone down their game, and some of them dont' know it.

Personaly, I like going up against someone who, if they were going all out, would likely beat me before I even aired up, but instead tries to play at their oponent's level. Gives me a challange, improves my game, and makes for a fun game.

[simon woodstock]

yeah. when a group of rentals comes to my field I try to help them out more than whoop on 'em.
and if I do shoot 'em I make sure i only give 'em one shot.
you gotta be careful of those newbie bunkering rec-ball superstars:laugh:.
it cracks me up when some body tries to act like they're tough but play w/ the on the field with the rentals instead of the tourney players and pros. But if pros go, you know they are never trying their hardest :(.

[Platinum4Life]

Twitch you totally misunderstood me, I aint cocky at all. I know it seems like it, but how I intended it was this, I love going out against the KIDS that think they are good just beacuse they have an angel. As far as me getting people out cuz they went easy on me, thats a joke, beause I play in the Novice division in big
tournaments, and I see you play rookie. I doubt people are going easy on me and my team, they are out there to win. Nobody is going easy on nobody. I have got way more then just one angel out, I do it on a weekly basis at team practices at my local field, no I am not bragging because I have also got owned by several
angels. The thing that I meant by my comment is that I like to show KIDS that have angels and other hi end guns that just because they have one doesn't guarentee them to always win.