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[Pious_Peter]

Hello, newbie here looking for some advice. After 2 paintball outings I decided to purchase a marker to call my own. I ordered a Viper M1 Miitary, with JT Spectra Thermal gogles, a 20 oz CO2 bottle with on/off valve and a basic viewloader hopper for just under $400. However, since the gun is backordered three weeks, and through some mis-comunication with the vendor, the order was cancelled and not shipped. This gives me an opportunity to make a better decision. I have spent the last three weeks reading this newsgroup and various web based forums. I here is what I'm considering currently:

First off, after reading some reviews at http://www.pbreview.com and http://www.warpig.com I think I would be happier with the VForce Shield over the JT Spectra Thermal. The reviews say the anti-fog coating on the VForce works well. The quick removal of lens appeals to me as it won't be a chore to keep the goggles in good shape. The retractible neck guard sounds very nice, how well it functions may not be. All in all the coverage on this mask looks to be equal to the Spectra Thermals, but the maintenance should be easier. I'm about 90% sure on this, so stop me if I'm making a mistake.

Second, my big problem. What gun. I still like the Viper M1. All the reviews I have read on it are good. The downside being the limited upgrade path. Top that off with the turmoil the company is in right now, having just been sold and not shipping product in a timely manner at present. I don't mind the lack of upgrades too much. As long as the marker will be able to compete with the other "tricked out" markers the "stock" label won't bother me. If it gets outclassed because of it's lack of upgrades though I might regret the purchase. and the real dilema, I think I have found a marker that is cheaper, and at least equal if not better.

The second marker I am considering is a PMI Pirahna. It was my first rental, and I had no complaints with it. The G2 Pirahna's look really nice. The upgrade path is there. The cost is low. alot of the forums I have been reading recommend it as the best beginning/intermediate gun out of the Pirahnas/Spyders/Tipmanns. I looked extensively at the Pirahna STS, PSI, and VTL. At first I was set on the STS. After looking closer though I believe the only differences between the STS and the VTL is the Gas-Thru Foregrip (which I would promptly remove for other upgrades), Venturi Bolt ($15 from the site I am looking at purchasing from), the Turbo Valve, and the Teflon/Nickle Coated Internals. For the price difference I think the VTL is the way to go, and then put better upgrades on out of the box.

Here is the setup I am looking to purchase. A Pirahna VTL with Bottomline kit. Add a Venturi Bolt, J&J Ceramic 14" barrel, Palmer Male Stabilizer (Better than a gas-thru foregrip, better than an expansion chamber?), and a 20oz CO2 tank. This setup is $50 less than the Viper M1 plus I already have upgrades lined up. After the initial purchase I think I'd have a gun at least equal to the Viper M1, and later I would add a turbo valve and drop forward. My biggest complaint with this gun is the double trigger. Granted I have never used one (I might like it), but I'd prefer a single trigger. I looked hard to find a single trigger for the Pirahna. No one sells them. I think I found a possible solution but the cost will mean I will at least get to try the double trigger. For about $120 I can get a Kingman Metal Trigger Frame (should fit the priahna), a DYE 45 Grip Frame, and DYE Sticky Grips. So if I am right and I hate the double triggers I would have this as a backup. Anyone see any flaws?

So does that Pirahna look good? Should I wait a month for the backordered Viper? Is there another gun I am overlooking? Thanks for the opinions/help.

[UNTOUCHABLE]

Hate to break it to you but you would be choosing wrong on a Pirahna. My experiences with that gun is that it does not last long. THe duribilty is not good at all, it just breaks down. with all the money you will be spending on a crappy gun like that you could get a cocker and a cheep screw on nitro tank. With a cocker you can keep it for ever. there are so many upgrades to buy on one and you can never get bord with one. Rite out of the box it is basicly turney acceptable. The only thing you would want to upgrade on it rite away was MAYBE a better barrel.
With the mask why would you be looking for a goggle system that can change the lenzes in 2.5 seconds? fist of all you cant take your goggles off on the field so how could you change them? 2nd of all why the hell would you want to change them? In order to change lenzes you need to buy another lenze, that would be at least 70 dollers. You should go with the spectra thermal. it is so much better then the mask you are looking at.
So please take my advice and dont waste your money on a gun and mask that will break down.

""JIM""

[MTU_Paintballer]

I don't know what you did to your piranha that it didn't last long but many blowbacks will last a long time. Any gun if not taken proper care of will break down. I actually think that the stacked tube blowbacks are easier to maintain than the complex blow forwards as the Autococker. Don't get me wrong the Autococker is a sweet gun, but i think that someone who has only played paintball twice will have just as much fun with a piranha as would they with a Autococker. I also don't think that "tourny rediness" should be any factor when looking for a beginning gun. If you are looking into playing large organized tournements them maybe you might want an Autococker but a blowback will still get by, especially just for rec. ball or local tournements.
As far as a mask goes try both on if possible, and get the one ou like the looks/feel of best. I love my Spectras, but i'm sure the V-force are good mask also. Anyways good luck and i hope you are happy with whatever you decide on.

[PBSouLjAh]

seriously...get the spectra! ur choice of a piranha is a good one. glad u realized that. u really dont need a new bolt. that should be something u get with extra money.....cuz the bolt wont make ur gun's performance noticibly better. also.....dude......i think about....90% of all the paintballers out there prefer the double trigger. its a lot more comfortable, and u can shoot faster.

[Pious_Peter]

I might be able to get a stock/strip base model cocker for the same money, but it won't perform as well minus the upgrades. All stock barrels seem to suffer from accuracy problems. Nitro is NOT an option for me. All the local fields are CO2 only. No other type of bottle filling companies that I know of in the area, and I don't want to have to spend money on my own fill station further increasing the cost of that cocker.

PMI has good customer service. The only things that I've read in reviews is that the trigger sear, and the orings sometimes fail early on. but all those revies said PMI fixed the problem at no cost. Really, any gun can break down, and any gun can be maintained in high working order.

As for the removable lenses. You are SUPPOSED to remove the lens and clean it EVERY time you get paint on the mask. The paint will get trapped between the lens and the seal. The paint will weaken the lens and discolor it. If you think replacing the lens is the only time you have to remove it, you are wrong.

[UNTOUCHABLE]

YES I WAS WRONG ABOUT THE COCKER BUT YOU ARE TELLING ME ABOUT THE GOGGLES AND SAYING I AM WRONG BUT HOW LONG HAVE YOU PLAYED PAINTBALL? HOW MANY PAIRS OF GOGGLES HAVE YOU OWNED? SERIOUSLY MAN ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS WASH THEM REAL GOOD YOU DONT HAVE TO STRIP THEM DOWN EVERY TIME YOU GET SHOT IN THE MASK!!!!! SO YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND WHY DO YOU ASK FOR OTHER MORE EXPERENCED PLAYERS OPINIONS?? OVIOUSLY YOU DONT WANT TO TAKE ANY ONES OPINIONS OTHER THEN YOUR OWN SO JUST DONT ASK.
A SPYDER LOOK ALIKE GUN NO MATTER HOW MANY UPGRADES WILL NEVER WORK BETTER THEN A COCKER NO WAY MAN!! MAYBE A NEWBIE CAN SHOOT BETTER WITH A SPYER LOOK ALIKE THEN A COCKER BUT THE GUN WILL NEVER PREFORM AS GOOD AS A COCKER.

[ptflyer]

"NO WAY MAN!! MAYBE A NEWBIE CAN SHOOT BETTER WITH A SPYER LOOK ALIKE THEN A COCKER BUT THE GUN WILL NEVER PREFORM AS GOOD AS A COCKER. "


What the hell are you talking about......a marker that is shooting 300 feet per second...is going to shoot just as well as any other marker.shooting the same velocity.....taking into account that they both have good barrel to paint match...now ROF might change....OR the chance of a chopped ball....under rapid fire..but that will happen more with a cocker than a double stack...

SO TAKE IT EASY...DUDE

[elTwitcho]

For 400 bucks, poop on all those guns and get a cocker or an automag 68 powerfeed with a nitro tank, you'll be alot happier that you did

[UNTOUCHABLE]

ELTWITCHO KNOWS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND PTFLYER THATS WHAT I WAS SAYING! LOL

[UNTOUCHABLE]

PTFLYER NEVER MIND WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? SO YOUR SAYING IF TWO PEOPLE WITH THE SAME EXPERIENCE WENT AGAINST EACH OTHER OEN HAD A STOCK SPYDER THE OTHER HAD A COCKER YOU THINK THE SPYDER WOULD WIN! I DONT THINK YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT EATHER.

[Cheapdog]

Chill guys...the guy said he has played twice!! Don't you think it is a bit early to be suggesting autocockers. Yes, I know they are much better, but not for him. It doesn't sound like he is going to a tournie any time soon. For his playing level, his choices are sound. One thing about the mask though, just try on several, go with the one that feels the best. THAT is the most important aspect of a mask. You and it will spend a lot of time together, and comfort is important.

[Pious_Peter]

Untouchable. I appologize I certainly didn't mean to offend you, but the problem with a cocker or a mag, from what I have read, is that they are awesome guns but they hate running on CO2. I cannot run Nitro or HPA. It will never happen. Now if I spend 400 on a stock cocker and ran CO2, do you really think I'd have a better experience then running a Pirahna on CO2?

As for the goggles, true you don't HAVE to remove them every thime you get hit. But from what I've read the instruction manuals tell you to which is where I get the "supposed" to from. Reading reviews here there are more than one that mention lens discoloring because of paint that wasn't cleaned right. Hasn't happened to you, I'm glad, but it is still something to consider. The JT reviews all list the lens removal as bad. So I felt it was definately something to consider.

Of course the Shield goggles have other advantages to. The reviews I've read say they are very confortable. The JT reviews say the foam feels weird sometimes. The VForce goggles have a much clearer view due to the optically corect lenses. The field of vision is also better than the JT's. I was probably to breif in my original post about the advantages I see in the VForce line over the JT line.

Cheapdog, it'd be nice but the few paintballs stores around here don't carry a variety of stock. I'm pretty much stuck with reading reviews and player input for advice. So trying before I buy is unfortunately not an option.

[elTwitcho]

Cockers can run Co2 just dandy, mags are where you have some trouble. Also, I think he'd just be better off gettin a cocker than something else, and upgrade later. There's no reason a person can't start off with a nice gun, he'll probably enjoy himself more with a good gun as well. Also, "UNTOUCHABLE", please dont post in all capital letters, it's an eyesore :)

[ptflyer]

PTFLYER NEVER MIND WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? SO YOUR SAYING IF TWO PEOPLE WITH THE SAME
EXPERIENCE WENT AGAINST EACH OTHER OEN HAD A STOCK SPYDER THE OTHER HAD A COCKER YOU THINK
THE SPYDER WOULD WIN!



I think he will have about the same chance..is what I am saying.....300 fps..is 300 fps..no matter how you look at it......


what you are saying is that if two motorcycles can both go 120 MPH top speed with the same accelleration...that one is "better" than the other....I think not....the "winner" will be the best driver....Look at pro auto racing.....

THAT is what I am saying...!!!..

[UNTOUCHABLE]

pt moto racing is totaly diff in paintball there is the factor of straightness distance and so on. not to get on your back but a better gun is gonna improove you as a player. and if guns are all the same why dont all the pros use BE guns???

[ptflyer]

I hear you..but I still don't know how the same type ball being shot out of the same make barrel at the same velocity whith the same type gas can make one "better" than the other..

But I will give you this...a cocker can be made to run on a lot less pressure which of course would make for a little more accurate shot...


SO ok....given that...yes cockers are "better"..

but I think it is alittle over priced....for an entry level gun...I myself almost bought one as my first marker......but am glad I didn't.....mybe in the future.....but I think that is alittle much just for a rec player.....

And remember....this is just my opinion....

PS:..if I was to get a cocker....I'd get the 32* cocker....again.....just my choice....(I like the ano)..

Didn't mean to flame.....either.....;)

[Creek]

I run my mag on CO2 never had a problem with it,and I ran it before I got the palmer stabilizer for it.

[elTwitcho]

But a cocker isnt an entry level gun, it's what I call a transition gun. it's better than any of the entry guns, and it will just plain give you better performance, yet a stock cocker doesnt compete against the high end guns. Which is why it's an inbetween gun. Same thing with 68 mags, transition guns

[UNTOUCHABLE]

i have the same opinion eltwitcho

[felixthecat]

I have tried on both the Spectras and the Vshields and I would personelly would go with the V shields because 1: lenses won't scratch 2: really easy to change lenses and 3: they look cool also . And the lenses are not that hard to find anymore so I would say go with the Vforce Shield. But don't take my word for it, try them your self. you'll like them.......

[Drtacobell]

get the JT spectra and a tippmann 98, good match up

[Freakazoid]

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE IS ALL THIS CAP LOCKS USAGE REALLY NECESSARY??????

[UNTOUCHABLE]

YES THEY ARE