how bad is this gonna get [Archive]

i like tictacs

02-12-2002, 03:59 PM

WTF! why do we call them markers instead of guns? in the american public's eyes, they always have been and ALWAYS WILL BE paintball GUNS. for example, turn to page 145 of the march 2002 APG and read the first few lines of that crap.

"mister, do you know anything about paintball guns?"

"Markers, not guns, and yes."

WTF! that is so damned rude, in my eyes, its not like im saying calling them "markers" is a bad thing, but sometimes its getting out of control. im not trying to be a ****** or anything, but come on, they ARE guns. why arent they? NERF HAS GUNS. WTF! why cant paintball "markers" be called guns? i just dont get it.

davkad

02-12-2002, 04:02 PM

calling them markers is a good thing.

if you havne't noticed, most of the magazines focus on torunament and indoor play. they want the game of paintball to be seen as a respectable sport and not a game for war scenarios, teaching kids how to use guns.

thats why the use of jerseys, team equipments, tourneys, etc... makes it more of game, than a war simulation.

this is what i think the game should be. but i'm not going to tell people who think otherwise and play otherwise to stop.

as long as they are safe, it's good with me. (chrono their guns, and always wear eye protection)

i like tictacs

02-12-2002, 04:05 PM

im not saying its bad either, but i dont understand why there is so much "push", if you will, to have them be caled markers. even you called it a gun. its just how it will be, and should be. paintball isnt some sissy sport, i hope, nor is it badarse, but for the love of god, call them what they are.

VeNoM

02-12-2002, 04:11 PM

markers is more "politically correct" nowa days especially with all the gun control laws and shootings going on. i call them markers because thats what they are, the mark people with a paintball. granted it is a gun too, i prefer to say marker . . . though in front of non-paintballers (most friends) i call them guns as to not confuse them :)

anchorite

02-12-2002, 04:24 PM

I LIKE TACTICS IS A NEWBIE!
NEWBIE
NEWBIE
NEWBIE
(is it that time of the month again iliketactics?)
you are the type of person who is going to get paintball banned in even more states.
it is already illegal to cary a loaded marker in your car in PA, morons like you like to shoot at people and buildings.

, guns kill people. markers dont.
(well... people use guns to kill people.
while possible, people dont use markers to kill people.)

paintball isnt a wargame. it shouldnt be considered a wargame.
maybe to some people in arkansas or (your equivilent (canada) to arkansas would be saskatchawan (however the fluck you spell it)).
paintball was invented by firemen and park workers to mark trees from long distances. thus they are and always will be markers.

also, when was the last time you saw a gun, a real gun, use co2 or nitro/n2 to propel the bullet.

133+ Player

02-12-2002, 04:36 PM

don' complain it'll only end up badly

RCM898

02-12-2002, 04:45 PM

You go anchorite!

lol

Netsloth

02-12-2002, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by anchorite

also, when was the last time you saw a gun, a real gun, use co2 or nitro/n2 to propel the bullet. [/B]

In WWII, the germans experimented with high-powered air rifles that fired a 40 caliber round. It was deadly, quiet and accurate at short ranges. I think the design was abandoned due to the complexities of charging, maintaining, etc.

MuckRaker

02-12-2002, 04:51 PM

Take a chill pill ... :rolleyes:

Most people at the field I play on call them guns, and they're mostly tournament players ... I call them markers when talking about paintball to the uninformed public. With my buddies, it's paint guns.

MINDofSIN

02-12-2002, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by anchorite
I LIKE TACTICS IS A NEWBIE!
NEWBIE
NEWBIE
NEWBIE
(is it that time of the month again iliketactics?)
you are the type of person who is going to get paintball banned in even more states.
it is already illegal to cary a loaded marker in your car in PA, morons like you like to shoot at people and buildings.

, guns kill people. markers dont.
(well... people use guns to kill people.
while possible, people dont use markers to kill people.)

paintball isnt a wargame. it shouldnt be considered a wargame.
maybe to some people in arkansas or (your equivilent (canada) to arkansas would be saskatchawan (however the fluck you spell it)).
paintball was invented by firemen and park workers to mark trees from long distances. thus they are and always will be markers.

Paintball isn't a sport. Yet.

Anchorite, I think you really should read his post again. I don't think he said or even implied half of the things you accused him of. Calling him a newbie isn't an intelligent response.

You, sir, are the type of person who will get laughed at for petitioning for your "sport" to be in the olympics.

Originally posted by anchorite
also, when was the last time you saw a gun, a real gun, use co2 or nitro/n2 to propel the bullet.

What do you define as a "real gun"? A paintball GUN may not be classified as a firearm but it IS a GUN.

I consulted the dictionary...
Gun- #1 A weapon with a long metal tube for shooting shells, bullets, shot, etc. An artillery piece or cannon is typically called a gun. Rifles, pistols, and revolvers are commonly called guns. #7 A device for ejecting or discharging something: a spray gun, an electron gun, a grease gun (The other 6 definitions of gun were not related)

Paintball GUNS eject/discharge paintballs so...they ARE GUNS.

Think about what you post next time and don't just agree with others...I think you're being brainwashed by Action Pursuit Games.

weefek

02-12-2002, 04:54 PM

call them what they are, eh? marker, MARKS SOMEONE!! when they get hit with a paintball marker, they're marked. marked= out.

CrazyB

02-12-2002, 05:03 PM

Paintballs was started in the 80s by a few New Hampshire guys who wanted to create a survival game. Now fluck all you screw head who think people playing with tactics are paramilitary nuts. It originally concieved as a survival game, speedball is just one of its MANY evolutions. One of the early adopters of paintball have been training people in the use of guns for tactical purposes such as military and police agencies. The tactical part was the part that fueled your sport for as long as it took to get it to where it is. Now I like speedball just as much as recball, but come on stop bickering and play. Now is it a gun or a marker, maybe it's both so who the heck cares.

VeNoM

02-12-2002, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by MINDofSIN

Paintball isn't a sport. Yet.

hmmm well since you just got all dictionary style on anchorite, im gonna do the same here. i personal totally think paintball is a sport, it is very competitive and thats what makes a sport to me.

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=sport

theres a link to a definition . . . i think paintball is "An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively." - dictionary's definition . . .

MuckRaker

02-12-2002, 05:20 PM

Play nice children ... :rolleyes:

MINDofSIN

02-12-2002, 05:21 PM

Okay. I'll rephrase...

Paintball isn't a popular mainstream sport yet. (Compared to others)

To me, it's more of a game but yes, it could be classified as a sport aswell.

As not to seem openly hostile to anything but anchorite, I accept the term marker %100. But I call them guns and there is nothing wrong with that.

elTwitcho

02-12-2002, 05:27 PM

Actually, whether you call it a gun or not, technically it ISN'T a gun not the other way around as you think tictacs. We aren't shooting guns, every paintball marker is an upgraded, highly modified cattle marker. So no, call it what you want but technically speaking, it isn't a gun

MINDofSIN

02-12-2002, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by DasBaldDog
It's all for poo and giggles

LordChaos

02-12-2002, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
every paintball marker is an upgraded, highly modified cattle marker.

I thought they were originaly used to mark trees (for removal by followup teams).

Ebonclaw

02-12-2002, 06:13 PM

I'm going to reiterate the argument I made earlier.

Should we start referring to our triggers as "lever actuation devices"?

Heck, we can do better than "marker". Why not "Colored- substance-filled-gelatin-capsule propellent device"?

And as for bunker? How about "defensive structural establishment"?

Want me to go farther?
Barrel? "tubular guidance module."

Political correctness has gone too far. And people only feel like we're insulting their intelligence when we call them markers. Heck, they can see as well as anyone else they're a gun.
BTW, guns don't kill people either. people kill people. Old cliche, but true.

mikek2111987

02-12-2002, 06:31 PM

did you know that canada almost lost the sprt of paintball becuase of them being called "guns"? im pretty sure thats what all that wasabout a while back ago before you were here. so i try to call them markers as much as possible, like on my site, i call mine a marker, not a gun. btw, peeps pls go to my site and sign my guestbook

mikek2111987

02-12-2002, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by LordChaos

I thought they were originaly used to mark trees (for removal by followup teams). they were used for both

LordChaos

02-12-2002, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by mikek2111987
they were used for both

Makes sense. Likely used for other marking purposes as well...

Lavahead

02-13-2002, 12:25 AM

i like tictacs

02-13-2002, 04:03 AM

Well said lava...very nice

anchorite

02-13-2002, 08:15 AM

its a marker.
and mindofsin...
why you flaming me for calling paintball a sport?
it is a sport.
do I think it is going to be in the olympics? definatley not any time soon. you assume too much. assumption is the mother of all fluck ups.
so... shut up.

its a marker.
dont flame people who call it a marker.
it is a marker.
"you sir" is the type of person who is going to end up getting paintball banned in even more countries and states, and possibly get our freedom to own markers taken away.

simon woodstock

02-13-2002, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
I'm going to reiterate the argument I made earlier.

Should we start referring to our triggers as "lever actuation devices"?

its just an actuator.

coyote

02-13-2002, 09:26 AM

It isn't a gun...

Why? Because it isn't a weapon. A weapon is used to injure. Those of us who play the game right know that avoiding injury is the first rule of paintball. Safety is always our first goal.

I can use my vehicle as a weapon. I can use my marker as a weapon. I can whack somebody on the head with Sin's dictionary. None of them meet the definition of a weapon because none of the are intended to injure or kill.

BTW tossing around a bag of F bombs rather than putting up a smart valid argument does support your point. It weakens it.

Whether we like it not those who would make paintball vanish have an easier time doing so so when they can use the word guns. Gun or marker, we know what we are talking about. But Politicians and soccer moms who don't know paintball get all worked up to ban guns. Lets not give these ignorants any ammo to attack our sport. And yes if golf is a sport paintball is too.

Seithman

02-13-2002, 09:30 AM

The misinformed public is going to continue to remain misinformed as long as we sit on our own forums and message boards and bicker amongst ourselves and let the "everything you do offends someone, so you can't do it" activists keep spreading their uninformed filth about us and everyone else they don't like or understand.

Actually, I hate to break it to you, but much of the misinformed public is going to remain misinformed. Period. Take it from someone who belongs to two "minority groups" that are constantly slandered despite people's attempts to educate everyone. The simple truth is that some people prefer to remain misinformed. Their minds are made up, so don't try confusing them with anything as trivial as the facts, thank you very much. My sincere advice is to get used to it.

I think I Like Tictacs and Ebonclaws' point is that every single time anyone says anything bad about us, we bend over backwards trying to appease them, instead of standing up for our rights.

Given what I said above, I agree with what you're saying here wholeheartedly. You need to get beyond the idea of getting everyone to say that "paintball is okay" and into the practice of insisting that you have a right to play paintball. Whether everyone else thinks it's "okay" or not.

What gets me is that everyone here seems to be running away from the image of paintball as a "war game." Why? Paintball isn't exactly the first "war game." In fact, there are plenty of acceptable "war games." Because they're about strategy and planning, not about killing. (And let's face it, as far as the American public is concerned, war has very little to do with killing anymore, anyways.) As I see it, it is political correctness at it's worst. That worst is the fact that it actually gets in the way of your goal: demanding your rights to play paintball no matter how others may see it.

coyote

02-13-2002, 09:44 AM

All truths...

In a perfect world the fascists would leave us alone. But that isn't what they do. They look for stuff to hate.

Paintball is a thinking mans sport. It's about tactics. If we can apply those same tactics to the P.R. of paintball we are difficult targets. Politically correct Nazis don't like hard targets. They like easy prey. Paintballer should be smart enough to be the nastiest prey they can find.

Call it a marker. We all know what it is. We will be less likely to have to spend time energy and money battling fools that don't think "the youth of America should play with guns".

Lavahead

02-13-2002, 11:04 AM

The simple truth is that some people prefer to remain misinformed. Their minds are made up, so don't try confusing them with anything as trivial as the facts, thank you very much.

I agree with this completely, actually. It is unfortunate that so many people can be fed information and they simply accept it as the truth, whether it's right or wrong, plausible or not. It is just easier for them to continue to let others make their decisions for them.

But why should we have have to put up with the fact that a few loud-mouthed whiners can ruin our sport. They clearly AREN"T going to accept the fact that we do things they don't like; why should we then accept the fact that they're doing things that we don't like?

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 11:13 AM

well, I can draw one conclusion from this forum...all of the people here know paintball isn't dangerous. The problem is, the public isn't here. What the paintball industry needs to do, is STOP manufacturing markers under the term "gun." Also, stores need to stop that, too. Unfortunately, that won't happen. Fortunately, it probably won't be banned for a VERY long time, if ever. Just listen to the news. If you hear Congress is making legislation to ban paintball, lobby. That's what I'll be doing if it happens. Jay

Seithman

02-13-2002, 11:17 AM

You see, though, it doesn't matter whether manufacturers and stores call them guns or markers. No matter what you call it, to John Q, it's still going to be a "gun." Prettying up the names isn't going to change that.

In the end, your best bet is lobbying no matter what. Because changing the terms is not going to change John Q's opinion.

i like tictacs

02-13-2002, 11:20 AM

siethman, you are right, thats the point i was trying to make with my first post here. good eyes, you see the truth, along with a handful of others on this site.

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 11:20 AM

You're probably right. Changing names will reduce the pressure, but by no means end the issue. But this really isn't much of an issue, anyway. They won't be able to remove paintball from the U.S. anytime soon. Jay

Crime Dog

02-13-2002, 11:27 AM

IF they try to outlaw paintball, they'll have to pry my paintball gun/marker/propeller from my dead, cold hands.

Oh.

Wait.

That's if they outlaw firearms. Silly me... ;)

133+ Player

02-13-2002, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Netsloth

In WWII, the germans experimented with high-powered air rifles that fired a 40 caliber round. It was deadly, quiet and accurate at short ranges. I think the design was abandoned due to the complexities of charging, maintaining, etc.

Last time i checked they lost so that doesn't count

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 11:35 AM

About that quote above me, I know what you're talking about. But they are nothing like our paintball markers. They took a lot more air, probably needed a higher pressure air, and are bullets, which travel faster, farther, and are more accurate than paintballs. And another thing, air-powered rifles are being manufactured. We know them as BB or pellet guns. And they aren't incredibly deadly, I don't think. Jay

BodyBagSlam

02-13-2002, 11:37 AM

Its all about perspective. If it makes you (or your current lawful jurisdiction) happier to call them markers, then so be it. You call a pinto a porsche, but it don't make the damn thing go faster. It is waht it is, and we are all going to see it as what pleases us. I know people who call them markers, both woods/rec and pro/speed, and I also know folks who call them guns in both of the aforementioned realms of play too.

Are we so uptight that we are going to let a disagreement over correct terminolgy cause this much alarm? The wrong terminology causes problems when its your bank account (what large transfer?) or the doctors pre surgery instructions (oh, it was the other kidney?), but not for this. I am in agreement with Lava for the most part, and this has got to be just as bad as the ever so wonderfuly recurring woods vs. speed discussion. The two words are, for the most part, synonymous 90% of the time, outside of a use for deadly force.

My point is this: A gun can be used for many a purpose. It usually propels things, whether it be grease, paint, spray paint, rubber bands, little plastic balls, lead, etc. Its a means to get it there. And yes, sometimes that means has deadly consequences. On the flipside:

A marker can be used for many a purpose. It usually propels things, whether it be grease, paint, spray paint, rubber bands, little plastic balls, lead, etc. Its a means to get it there. And yes, sometimes that means has deadly consequences.

Interesting huh?

Now why don't we focus on trying to make this more proactiv and less reactive, as to chaneg the minds of the people who would benefit from all of our klittle civil wars?

BBS

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 11:51 AM

What would be the fun of life if everyone agreed? Not very. But, we should be thinking, not reacting. So I did. Here is the definition of gun:
gun (gn)
n.
A weapon consisting of a metal tube from which a projectile is fired at high velocity into a relatively flat trajectory.
A cannon with a long barrel and a relatively low angle of fire.
A portable firearm, such as a rifle or revolver.

This is a personal decision, but I don't think 300 fps is high velocity, in comparison to a rifle, which can range from 800-1600 fps. So, its your choice if you want to call it a gun or not. Just remember what it really means. Jay

Ebonclaw

02-13-2002, 11:56 AM

So do you consider a "water gun" a "water marker"? Heck, just cuz the dictionary defines it one way doesn't make it written in stone.

Lavahead

02-13-2002, 11:56 AM

I was just looking on Warpig for some kind of paintball association, but couldn't find anything useful in the U.S. The only things are all like the NPPL, glorified tournament organizers, but no single organization that exists to further the sport of paintball on a public relations level. Then I found this...

http://cpa-online.on.ca/

This is the Canadian Paintball Association's website. This group seems to exist for the main purpose of promoting paintball. I don't even live in Canada and I'm thinking of getting a membership. Something like this is what paintball in the States really needs-a unifying body. Unfortunately I have no idea how one starts up something like that-I've only been playing for a year now. But there are a lot of players, manufacturers, and field owners out there who a) stand to lose a lot if the current trend toward regulating everything imaginable continues, and b) probably have connections, be it in media, government, or the commercial sector, to lobby and maintain rights. I would gladly pay a membership fee to a body like that.

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 12:09 PM

So do you consider a "water gun" a "water marker"? Heck, just cuz the dictionary defines it one way doesn't make it written in stone.
Maybe not stone, but very close. If the dictionary wasn't reliable, we wouldn't have the English language. Everyone could keep arguing about which word is real or what it means! And, for the record, a water "gun" isn't a gun or marker. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't have much velocity, and it doesn't really mark.

Seithman

02-13-2002, 12:15 PM

If the dictionary wasn't reliable, we wouldn't have the English language. Everyone could keep arguing about which word is real or what it means!

Actually, this is incorrect. The dictionary is reliable because every year, dictionaries are updated to reflect new word usage. The simple truth of the matter is that words do change over time. A dictionary describes what a word means at the time of it's publication. It does not, however, prescribe what the word should mean.

Otherwise, it would be quite offensive to refer to a convent as a "nunnery," which meant "brothel" in Shakespeare's day.

Lavahead

02-13-2002, 12:27 PM

Aren't we getting off topic again? We can call them guns, markers, or "mobile, air-powered, paint dispersion devices", the problem is that other people think we're maniacs, and we need to come up with a better way of educating them than with inane word games. They may not be willing to think on their own, but they are smart enough to see through that.

Ebonclaw

02-13-2002, 01:16 PM

Yeah, why don't we find a positive way to promote ourselves as opposed to trying to stop negative promotion through legal lingo? I mean, can you imagine what would have more impact:

"Mom, can I buy a paintball MARKER?"
or....
"Mom, can I go play in the Salvation Army fundraiser paintball game?"

I think we need more fundraising events for charities, and more publicity when we do them.

Seithman

02-13-2002, 01:22 PM

You could consider a paintball safety course. Teach people how to properly take care of their markers, proper equipment to wear (like the athletic cup that came up in another topic), and similar information.

If safety is a concern for some people, then actually having public demonstrations of how to be as safe as possible can help address those concerns.

Ebonclaw

02-13-2002, 01:30 PM

Well, I don't think safety is much of an issue with people. I think it's more along the lines of Paintball in the wake of Jonesboro and Columbine. Ihad my own thoughts on that but SOMEONE unjustly deleted my thread.

Villhime98c

02-13-2002, 01:54 PM

Yeah I agree paintball guns should be called markers becasue they refer to real guns which kill people. We should just politicly correct the whole entire sport of paintball. Wait, that means we vill have to call triggers a different name also, becasue real guns also have triggers. That goes for barrels too...STOP ALL THE POLITICALY CORRECT BULL CRAP!!!! If people wanna call paintball guns "guns" then they can. We are using devices that use expanding gas to propell a projectile to a target. There are all types of guns, glue guns, nail guns,staple guns and so on. Now there is a type of gun called a firearm. If we started calling paintball guns firearms then I could see why people would have a problem. But I don't think someone should be ostracized because they refer to thier paintball marker, gun, whatever you wanna call it a "gun". And all this crap about firearm laws affecting paintball in canada and other countries, we have a thing in the bill of rights called the 2nd ammendment so don't worry about it, paintball guns aren't even firearms so it doesn't matter anyways! So if somebody wants to call thier painrball gun a "gun" they can. I don't have a problem with "marker, I just hate all this politicaly correct crap.
:yell:

PMI_Guy

02-13-2002, 01:59 PM

This is how Webster defines it.

Main Entry: 1gun
Pronunciation: 'g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gonne, gunne
Date: 14th century
1 a : a piece of ordnance usually with high muzzle velocity and comparatively flat trajectory b : a portable firearm (as a rifle or handgun) c : a device that throws a projectile
2 a : a discharge of a gun especially as a salute or signal b : a signal marking a beginning or ending
3 a : HUNTER b : GUNMAN
4 : something suggesting a gun in shape or function
5 : THROTTLE
- gunned /'g&nd/ adjective
- under the gun : under pressure or attack

I personaly think 200 MPH is a "high muzzle velocity"
and it does "Throw a projectile"

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 02:06 PM

200 fps is fast? well, let me reiterate. Rifles shoot from a range of 800-1200 fps. 200 is 25% of 800, the SLOWEST a rifle bullet will fly. Well, it may be fast, but it just doesn't compare to a real gun.

jaronervin

02-13-2002, 02:19 PM

OK... I'm gonna say one more thing, b/c I have gotten WAY too involved in this. To everyone that opposes calling it a "gun": If someone told you that they would ban paintball, unless you stopped calling it a gun, and started calling it marker, that you wouldn't do it?

bunkereradict

02-13-2002, 02:34 PM

i would cosider a water "gun" as more like a water pump

MINDofSIN

02-13-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by anchorite
its a marker.
and mindofsin...
why you flaming me for calling paintball a sport?
it is a sport.
do I think it is going to be in the olympics? definatley not any time soon. you assume too much. assumption is the mother of all fluck ups.
so... shut up.

its a marker.
dont flame people who call it a marker.
it is a marker.
"you sir" is the type of person who is going to end up getting paintball banned in even more countries and states, and possibly get our freedom to own markers taken away.

"It's a marker"
I agree. It is also a gun. I wasn't flaming you markerites, just defending people who use the term gun.

"you sir is the type of person who is going to end up getting paintball banned in even more countries and states, and possibly get our freedom to own markers taken away."
Well, firearms have been around a long time. They aren't in severe danger of being taken away. Neither are paint guns. Paintball isn't banned in any states. People tried to ban it in Canada, but they failed. Also, if paintball was going to get banned, it would have happened a long time ago.

You "assume" I am a moron and I use my paintball gun for vandalism. Sorry, I don't.

FrOnTMaN

02-13-2002, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by MINDofSIN

Well, firearms have been around a long time. They aren't in severe danger of being taken away. Neither are paint guns. Paintball isn't banned in any states. People tried to ban it in Canada, but they failed. Also, if paintball was going to get banned, it would have happened a long time ago.

firearms arent a comepetive sport. you dont open fire on someone with a buckshot. canada fought banning by coming together, and having an org that was there to promote paintball.

coyote

02-14-2002, 10:23 AM

The sad truth...

It is both a gun and a marker. We all know that on one level or another. We also know that it is safe in the hands of educated responsible paintballers.

Now if you next door neighbor is a nosy fun policing jerk making them think "marker" before "gun" is a good thing. If your field owners insurance agent is the same type of person making them think "marker" is going to be cheaper when it comes time to renew his insurance. Ultimately that will mean cheaper paintball for all of us.

I have promoted, run, and reffed martial arts tournaments. I have owned and operated 2 martial arts schools. Insurance is difficult. There are 2 (only 2) options for insurance. That little competition makes it incredibly expensive. Paintball can suffer from that same problem. We can keep that from happening if we are all part of the publi relations machine.

Most of you guys are younger than me. At 31 I am an old man in this sport. I have seen a lot of good clean fun that young people can have stripped away from them, or regulated. How many of you can skate wherever you want to? I could. But then something happened. The public decided the skate culture was a bunch of hoods, vandals , and bad seeds. We are the paintball culture. We are already under fire in some states. The smarter we are, the less ammo the fun police will have to shut us down. Think about it.

flyfishr22

02-14-2002, 10:38 AM

:| what is so bad about guns or the word gun. I think they are guns, but if you want to call them markers go ahead. However the world of political correctness is really getting out of hand. Guns are not only used to kill people. Criminals kill people. Hunting is a viable of a sport as paintball and much more popluar, according to figures. it uses a gun and has no intention of killing people. sure guns are involved in criminal activity, but killing a person with a car is still killing a person, point is take guns and it will not stop crime. Countries with guns control policies have actually seen their crime rate go up. this includes murder and rape. Please dont give guns a bad name because you dont like them or are mis-informed by media sources.

jaronervin

02-14-2002, 10:45 AM

The question here shouldn't be whether it's a gun or marker. It should be whether or not we, the players, are willing to make the change from gun to marker if necessary. I mean, lets not fight amongst ourselves if the sport were actually in danger! We call them guns. But, if they threatened to ban it, I think I'd be ok calling it a marker? How about you? Jay

Wintermute

02-14-2002, 10:49 AM

What's in a name? Websters defines a gun as:

1 a) a piece of ordnance usu. with high muzzle velocity and comparatively flat trajectory
1 b) a portable firearm (as a rifle or handgun)
1 c) a device that throws a projectile
2 a) a discharge of a gun esp. as a salute or signal
2 b) a signal marking a beginning or ending
3 a) HUNTER
3 b) GUNMAN
4) something suggesting a gun in shape or function
5) THROTTLE - gunned; under the gun: under pressure or attack

Only one of these - 1b - implies using explosive propellant. I think paintball "markers" fall directly into the category of "gun" in most senses of the word. The only difference between the words is the connotation.

I would highly suggest using the word "marker" around closed-minded people, but "gun" describes the object just as well. There's no reason for people to get upset over what to call their paintball projection device.

jaronervin

02-14-2002, 10:52 AM

I would highly suggest using the word "marker" around closed-minded people Exactly. If we don't make the sport sound violent to the skeptics, they wont have a reason to object.

coyote

02-14-2002, 11:17 AM

Q? What is in a name.
A! The perception of the person hearing the name.

Perception is a persons reality. I don't like having to act like a slick politician to get around the closed minded and the ignorant. But, if my other option is having to waste time, energy, and money defending paintball from the closed minded and ignorant I will use the P.C. word because it is smart. I would rather spend that time, energy, and money playing.

I'm glad guys like jaronervin and wintermute see that. I pick my fights. This one is too easy. Remember that freedom is speech is guaranteed, but your freedomto play the game is not. It can be taken away. My ego doesn't need the word gun to make paintball awesome. If we fight so hard to call them guns sooner or later the gun control people will be coming after us.

If we are willing to do the smart little thing to protect paintball we will have more resources to fight the fight that has to be won. Does anyone want to pay $ for the right to call it a gun? I like marker simply because it is free!

anchorite

02-14-2002, 11:48 AM

I feel I should be serious now...
this should be the final statement, right here... I have said it before. Many people who are not ignorant enough to realize that paintball's image, in the popular eye, is in danger of being frowned upon have also realized this:

guns are used as weapons to kill people or things. (or harm them)
paintball MARKERS are not used to kill people or things: they are used to mark people or things with water or oil based paint.

paintball has been banned in many european countries. Owning a paintball marker is illegal in australia and parts of asia (singapore, Malaysia, thailand, indonesia). However, playing paintball in those countries is not illegal yet. Actually, the first place I played paintball was in thailand.
With some states setting laws against paintball (my example of PA outlawing people carrying loaded markers in their cars or on their persons).

We, as players who are dedicated to the sport, and upholding its public image, need to realize that no matter what we call it, guns or markers, we need to convince outsiders that they are indeed NOT guns, yet equiptment for a perfectly legitimate sport.

technically, however, they are not guns, they are markers. The sooner you realize this, the less problems we will have with laws.

(ohh... if any of you ever see a person shooting at private or public property with a marker, i.e vandalism, please kick the the shyt out of them... I know I will)

Lavahead

02-14-2002, 10:35 PM

The law (and the people who make them) doesn't care what we call our projectile-launchers, it cares that we have them. People think that by having a thing, we are therefore eventually going to use that thing in some unlawful manner. Calling it a marker might solve 5% of the publicity problem, maybe. I'm not opposed to a change in vernacular, i'm saying that it isn't going to make the go away. We're not just going to trick people...

anchorite

02-15-2002, 12:13 AM

still... being politically correct is better than not.
in today's "vernacular" (yes, I know what it means... I am impressed someone else who plays paintball does as well... lol) a marker is commonly refered to as a gun. it is just not a gun. it is what it is: a marker. it always has been used as a marker, it always will be used as a marker (except in the case of some people with odd fetishes... you get the picture).
so I dont see how calling it a marker would change today's "vernacular." why? because it isn't gun.

ohh well...
I believe that people should, however, be forced to use a liscense to own a marker (you have to have a liscense to own a gun.. you you redneck hicks cant complain... because "a marker is a gun")... however this liscense should be free, and consist of nothing more than a mandatory saftey class.
why do I believe this? so morons dont go shooting up neighborhoods and get the sport of paintball even more flucked. the age of these liscenses should be 8 (frankly because I know some 8 year olds who are more mature than 15 year olds).
if you disagree with this... please cite specific examples where the idea is flawed, and how it would not be a benefit to the sport and its image.

Seithman

02-15-2002, 05:46 AM

being politically correct is better than not.

I fail to see how. Political correctness has certainly solved the problems of racism, ***-bashing, and sexism....

Crime Dog

02-15-2002, 05:50 AM

Licensing a kid isn't going to keep a stupid punk from vandalizing with his paintball gun. Punks are punks, license or not.

Personally, I don't believe licensing firearms is Constitutional to begin with...

Mattbar

02-15-2002, 08:43 AM

Call them whatever you want, who cares! I think the term markers is silly, but whatever. And paintball is a wargame! Who goes out to play thinking 'I'd like to mark someone in a non-violent way' Be realistic! The police use them to subdue unruly crowds. This is why lazer tag never became the rage! People want to shoot someone else and make them hurt. Period. The freakin' military used to use paintball as training until the high tech lasers came along. As for the haters, way too many Dems saying what is or isn't a constitutional right. I want the right to bear my gun, marker, rifle pistol or whatever. Not that I want to carry a fully auto rainmaker, but they need to relax. :P

Torf

02-15-2002, 09:16 AM

First of all, rifles shoot in the 500-4000 fps range, not the wimpy 1500 fps that someone mentioned. BB rifles are around 500, deer rifles are anywhere from 2000-3000, and some varmint rounds go upwards of 4000 fps. Some military applications deliver projectiles over 5000 fps.

Second of all, antis will object to the sport of Paintball regardless of what you call your paintball guns. They object to the very concept of shooting anything at anybody for any reason. They especially hate the idea that paintball is remotely similar to combat. They don't understand the concept of good clean fun.

My Tippman is obviously not the same as my AR15, but if a caulk gun is called a gun, or a cap gun is called a gun, than my Tippman is a gun.

Call it a marker or a gun, but either way, you will be a target by the antis.

Torf

02-15-2002, 09:20 AM

Don't shrink from the stigma... Fight back. Appeasement never works! Just ask Neville Chamberlain. (See WWII, British Prime-Ministers)

Real firearms are used competitively and safely also.

anchorite

02-15-2002, 10:22 AM

thats not the point!!!!!!!!!!!!

they are not guns! they are markers!!!!!!!
there is no two ways around it! they are markers, not guns!
if you think differently, you are WRONG!
(paintball is not a wargame... maybe to some backwards *** rednecks it is, but other than that... the civilized players do not consider it a war game... at most, it is idealized capture the flag)

paintball is paintball. it shoul not be related to war, paintball players do not want it related to war. educated ones, at least dont.

ohh, I know who Neville Chamberlain is.... I am not a moron. (1 year of AP European history in highschool, 2 semesters of 20th century European politics in college so far) you cant impress me.
I am better than you. HAHAHAHA... just kidding I am not better than anyone... except at paintball. I can roll you all... probably not... but still... I'll shut up.

i like tictacs

02-15-2002, 10:26 AM

anchorite get your facts straight before you try to insuly us,

anchorite

02-15-2002, 10:35 AM

what facts are there to get straight?
I am not trying to "insuly" you (whatever that means... yes I know you were trying to say "insult" buy you look like an idiot now)

paintball players use markers to shoot at one another, in an attempt to mark them with paint which leads to an elemination.
Markers are compressed air or carbon dioxide propelled balls of paint which avearge in .68" in diamater.

so, which facts do I not have straight?
the fact that markers are not similar to guns in the way they operate at all? yes, they graphically do show similar trajectories, but so does someone throwing a baseball or football.
the velocities and range would be totally different.

or is it the fact that you mark people with paint in the sport of paintball?

they are markers. not guns.
end of discussion.
anyone who thinks differently is not smart.
not smart at all.
infact, I might even be tempted to call that person stupid.
but he/she is definatley at least not smart.

Seithman

02-15-2002, 10:38 AM

if you think differently, you are WRONG!

I'm sorry. I missed the memo from Ogma indicating that you were the final authority on what words meant and whether or not they applied in a given situation. Could you please refer me to a memo number so that I could go back and look it up?

(paintball is not a wargame... maybe to some backwards *** rednecks it is, but other than that... the civilized players do not consider it a war game... at most, it is idealized capture the flag)

Oddly, I've seen people compare capture the flag to a war game as well. That argument does not bode well in my mind. (Then again, since I don't have a predisposed prejudice against the phrase "war game," it's a matter of mere mental masturbation in my mind, anyways.)

paintball is paintball. it shoul not be related to war, paintball players do not want it related to war. educated ones, at least dont.

I'd be wary of what you claim on behalf of all "educated" people, son. I myself am a well-educated (both in school and out) person, and I assure you that you do not speak for me.

133+ Player

02-15-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by jaronervin
OK... I'm gonna say one more thing, b/c I have gotten WAY too involved in this. To everyone that opposes calling it a "gun": If someone told you that they would ban paintball, unless you stopped calling it a gun, and started calling it marker, that you wouldn't do it?

Ok there is a big difference between protesting and covering ur ***.....

jaronervin

02-15-2002, 01:18 PM

Thats the thing. There isn't a difference. In both of them, we are fighting for our rights. The only difference is, how close the sport is to being banned. All I was trying to say was, that we need to stick together, gun or marker, and tell the world whatever they want to hear, which is probably marker. Everyone in here is fighting for their say, which is fine, but the bottom line is: Nobody in here would choose to call it a gun and lose the sport, than to call it a marker and keep it. If anyone is saying that, they don't deserve to play paintball to begin with. And I saw someone mention capguns and caulk guns, and I'd just like to say that they definitely shouldn't be called guns, b/c they don't even fire a trajectory. Anyway, we can keep arguing, but keep the big picture in mind. Jay

MINDofSIN

02-15-2002, 03:06 PM

The question is, is a paintball marker a gun? Should we call it that? Why or why not? I think a paintball marker is a gun too. To me, the terms marker and gun are both acceptable. There is a diffrence between a gun and a firearm. We should not call paintball guns firearms.

anchorite-for someone who is so smart, you're really bad at typing:)

PooGas

02-15-2002, 07:18 PM

I only read about half of these damn reply's mostly cause i'm tired of hearing people arguing about something that doesn't matter... call them what ever the hell you want too, just try to say Marker when a anti-gun club or something will read/hear it, so paintball isn't in the spotlight for a new gun control campaign... You can call them whatever you want to you can call them gun's, paint-filled shell propelling device or what ever, just think what would look best for the paintball.

Henry_the_Lion5

02-15-2002, 07:43 PM

Guns shoot bullets, Markers shoot paint... Also it comes from a time when paintball didn't exist. Late 70s Eary 80s, They were a "marking" tool for people.

coyote

02-15-2002, 08:18 PM

Guys both terms work...

Marker simply makes fewer enemies. It may be P.C., but it's also sound stategy. I would like to think that a bunch of paintball junkies would be all about strategy. We are all on the same team. Our team would just work better together if we had a battle plan. Otherwise we might as well all pretend we that our individual opinion is more important than paintball in gerneral. I hope not. Personally I don't care what anyone calls my gear. But I won't pretend that we are not a target of the fun police. It would be nice if we were already prepared, and had way more game than them.

Dragun_Owner

02-15-2002, 09:42 PM

I also got sick of reading through all these little arguments. I don't care what people call it be it a gun or marker. Technically it is a gun. It shoots a projectile. Looking up "marker" in the dictionary I found no entries that were related to paintball. Call it whatever you want to call it, and if someone doesn't like what your calling it, too bad for them. Each phrase is correct. Maybe not politcally, but who cares? There is no debate over whether "wipers" should be called cheaters because "wiper" is politically incorrect. A player can do more than wipe to cheat.

P.S. If this is all mindless babble dont blame it on me, its 12:30 AM and im tired.:o

Frosty

02-15-2002, 11:10 PM

Water GUNS
Nerf GUNS
Cap GUNS

They do not kill people! Yes they are guns. Anything with a trigger should be called a gun. If they are going to change paintball gun to paintball marker, they my aswell call a Water gun like a....Water Sprayer! I think they should just stick with paintball gun instead of paintball marker. Crayola Markers can be pretty dangerous to, you can throw em pretty hard and take someones eye out!

jaronervin

02-16-2002, 03:47 AM

A pressure washer has a trigger. So does an air compressor, for that matter. A trigger is anything that causes a reaction, basically. However, I agree with Dragun_Owner, coyote, and PooGas that you can call them what you want, but just try not to use "gun" around the skeptical. This really isn't an issue, we are making it one. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Until there is legislation or something, you guys can say whatever you want. Just be smart about it. Don't go in front of an anti-paintball person and talk about how you sniped someone in the head w/ your awesome paintball gun. That might sound a little bad, if you ask me.

Surreal

02-16-2002, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by MINDofSIN
Paintball GUNS eject/discharge paintballs so...they ARE GUNS.

my ***** ejects/discharges semen so...therefore i have A GUN!

jaronervin

02-16-2002, 05:52 AM

thanks for sharing that. I think that might sound bad to the public, too, though.

Seithman

02-16-2002, 06:38 AM

All I was trying to say was, that we need to stick together, gun or marker, and tell the world whatever they want to hear, which is probably marker. Everyone in here is fighting for their say, which is fine, but the bottom line is: Nobody in here would choose to call it a gun and lose the sport, than to call it a marker and keep it.

Okay, kids, listen up. Quiet yourselves down and actually read what I'm about to say:

Call your marker a "magic pixie wand" for all the good it will do you. Paintball WILL be banned ANYWAYS.

Yep, sorry to break it to you, but as things stand right now, I see that as inevitable. Want to do something about it? Then listen to what I say very closely.

Paintball is not being banned because paintballers call their "markers" a "gun" -- and calling it a "marker" won't stop it from being banned either. Paintball isn't being banned because people think it's a "wargame"? Have you kids even stopped to think about the "wargames" that aren't being banned? Good grief, I have friends who take large metallic weapons that could split your skull like an over-ripe melon to events called "simulated combats." They fight each other like crazy. And yet, these events seem to avoid being banned. When we were in high school together, my brother-in-law was part of a Civil War reenactment group. In this group, they set up a battlefield and fired guns and artillery at each other. And while there was no ammunition in any of them, the cannon that my brother-in-law helped fire could kill a man at close to a hundred yards from the air pressure alone. And yet, these events go on without hardly an eye raised.

The simple truth is, paintball is getting banned because some people don't like it. And it doesn't matter how "politically correct" your language is, those people don't care. Their mind is made up.

So go ahead, jump on each other and get all of your political correctness worked out. In the end, you're going to be crying that your precious paintball is outlawed anyways. For all the good that your political correctness will do you, you might as well ban the sport yourselves.

Or you can listen up, and take advice from someone who has experience in civil rights and political activism. You can forget the political correctness nonsense and you can start doing what really has a chance of saving your sport.

How many of you have written your state and national congressmen about your concerns? How many of you are even aware of what legislation in your state and the nation is being considered that might affect your right to play your sport? How many of you are letting your government's representatives know how you'd like them to vote on that legislation? Or are you too busy kidding yourself into thinking that changing the words in your sport will make a difference?

Wake up and smell the coffee, kids. No civil rights movement has ever won anything by being politically correct. They're won in legislation and the courts. So if you're not dealing with the legislators and courts, you may as well surrender now. Because that's where the battle is. Not in words.

Thank you and have a good day.

jaronervin

02-16-2002, 06:44 AM

luckily, there isn't even legislation on it (none federal, and none in MD), so it wouldn't help to take legislative action, now would it? You cant propose a bill to "not ban paintball". What we are talking about here is how to keep people from joining the anti-paintball group or calm the ones that are already there.

Seithman

02-16-2002, 06:55 AM

As long as you don't delude yourself into thinking that (1) you can educate everyone or (2) education alone is going to keep the sport from being banned, that's fine.

But if you for one second believe either of those things, your sport is in serious trouble.

Of course, I wouldn't say that there's no action you can take from a civil rights point of view. Now is the time to become active and visible. Now's the time to be looking into working towards community-sponsored teams and events. You will find that something is much harder to ban when it's already deeply rooted within community structures.

Think proactively. That way you don't have to react later. ;)

jaronervin

02-16-2002, 07:04 AM

I can agree with those two rules, Seithman. Just saying "marker" won't make or break the game of paintball. Every little bit helps, though, so if (heaven forbid) we have to save our sport, why not try that, along with many other steps?

Lavahead

02-16-2002, 09:29 AM

Educating people clearly won't work for everyone. there are to many people who have their minds made about about things, and certainly don't want to be confused with facts. But there are plenty of people who don't have any solid views yet and are just waiting to here information that makes sense. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that it has to be the truth, just sensible. So why not give them our info first , info that is both sensible AND factual.

I also have no real problem with the word "marker". I find myself saying it half the time anyways. If that's all it takes to get a few more people on our side, go for it.

How to spread the good word about paintball? Write your government representatives, just make sure it is spelled right and sounds professional, i.e. no name-calling, whining, etc. Field and shop owners-form organizations in your area. Maybe hold a charity tourney or big game once a year-giving money to charities makes everyone love you. Players-form organizations, possibly with field and shop owners. Media sources-show some woodsball (it will never go away; woods are far more available and easier to maintain than expensive buildings, in the city, that are basically empty) but concentrate on speedball, as this is clearly the "sports-type" game.

Firearms are rpotected by the Second Amendment, yet they still have the NRA to fight for the rights of gun owners. At first glance it would seem redundant, yet there is always som eissue for them to fight, like mandatory registration, banning weapons with a certain obscure feature that, coincedentally, is on a lot of guns, etc. Paintball has no such organizations. The best we have are a few high-level leagues that exist for tourney promotion.

Even with the millions of paintball players in the U.S. alone, we can't hope to fight legal issues without organization. We are not given any respect as a group because of this lack of organization, therefore we are unaware of any issues that come up until the last moment. None of the minority groups in the U.S. got any of the rights they now have until they banded together to force reality upon those who chose to ignore it. There is no situational difference here. We need to come together as a community and insist on maintaining our rights before they go away; it would be a lot harder to get them back.

Lavahead

02-16-2002, 09:31 AM

Educating people clearly won't work for everyone. there are to many people who have their minds made about about things, and certainly don't want to be confused with facts. But there are plenty of people who don't have any solid views yet and are just waiting to here information that makes sense. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that it has to be the truth, just sensible. So why not give them our info first , info that is both sensible AND factual.

I also have no real problem with the word "marker". I find myself saying it half the time anyways. If that's all it takes to get a few more people on our side, go for it.

How to spread the good word about paintball? Write your government representatives, just make sure it is spelled right and sounds professional, i.e. no name-calling, whining, etc. Field and shop owners-form organizations in your area. Maybe hold a charity tourney or big game once a year-giving money to charities makes everyone love you. Players-form organizations, possibly with field and shop owners. Media sources-show some woodsball (it will never go away; woods are far more available and easier to maintain than expensive buildings, in the city, that are basically empty) but concentrate on speedball, as this is clearly the "sports-type" game.

Firearms are protected by the Second Amendment, yet they still have the NRA to fight for the rights of gun owners. At first glance it would seem redundant, yet there is always som eissue for them to fight, like mandatory registration, banning weapons with a certain obscure feature that, coincedentally, is on a lot of guns, etc. Paintball has no such organizations. The best we have are a few high-level leagues that exist for tourney promotion.

Even with the millions of paintball players in the U.S. alone, we can't hope to fight legal issues without organization. We are not given any respect as a group because of this lack of organization, therefore we are unaware of any issues that come up until the last moment. None of the minority groups in the U.S. got any of the rights they now have until they banded together to force reality upon those who chose to ignore it. There is no situational difference here. We need to come together as a community and insist on maintaining our rights before they go away; it would be a lot harder to get them back.

thx-1138

02-16-2002, 10:05 AM

Lets be slightly realistic ppl. a bb gun isnt used to kill is it. granted pellet guns and bb guns kill birds and rats and were invented for such but i have turned doves inside out with a paintbal GUN. looks at the definiton it fires a projectile, out of a barrel. its pretty F***in obvious. stun guns dont kill, but they fire electrons. tranqualizer guns dont kill but a major portion of them use compressed air to fire a nonlethal projectile out of a barrel. so the government get all pc and save the kiddies when you call sumthin a gun but again look at bb guns. just agree to disagree if u call a paintball gun a marker then im calling my ruger a lead based flesh disruption device, capiche?
:pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

jaronervin

02-16-2002, 10:18 AM

I really didn't want to argue about this anymore, but I am sick of hearing the same wrong arguments. A bb gun is a gun because it shoots at a high velocity. So does a stun gun. And, if my recollection is correct, so does a tranquilizer, because it has to impale the skin. A paintball gun shoots at a low velocity. Much slower than all of the above. I call it a gun and marker, but marker around parents and stuff. Are you saying that you'd rather call it a gun, even if the sport is on the line?

FrOnTMaN

02-16-2002, 01:06 PM

ignorance kills

carrim

02-16-2002, 02:03 PM

A Heckler and Koch PSG1 is a sniper rifle, it fires a .308 caliber round travelling at around 2500 fps and it's primary function is to put that bullet through a terrorist's skull. A Tippmann model 98 is an air rifle, it fires a .68 caliber gelatin capsule filled with paint travelling at under 300fps and it's primary function is to break that gelatin capsule on a person wearing the proper safety equipment and participating in a game called paintball. The one difference in the type of "gun" is the air part. Yes, paintball guns are guns, but they are vastly different from a PSG1.

elTwitcho

02-16-2002, 02:21 PM

No man, they aren't technically guns, people adopted that for whatever reason, maybe for convenience or what, but simply put, a paintball marker is not a gun. Just because it "fires" paint doesn't mean jack, does that make a spray paint can a "spray paint gun"? A water fountain a "water dispensing gun"? A leaf blower a "Yard cleaning gun"? No it dioesn't people adopted calling it a gun for god knows what stupid reason, but that doesn't make it a gun

UTLadiesMan

02-16-2002, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by elTwitcho
No man, they aren't technically guns, people adopted that for whatever reason, maybe for convenience or what, but simply put, a paintball marker is not a gun. Just because it "fires" paint doesn't mean jack, does that make a spray paint can a "spray paint gun"? A water fountain a "water dispensing gun"? A leaf blower a "Yard cleaning gun"? No it dioesn't people adopted calling it a gun for god knows what stupid reason, but that doesn't make it a gun

Well put.

In order to be a gun, they have to fire projectiles over X amount of Joules at muzzle. In no country does a paintball marker even come close to X.