Spec Ops Gone too Far?

[..!..('_')..!..]

http://thumb17.webshots.com/t/59/59/9/62/23/2404962230091740477kPConA_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2404962230091740477kPConA)

http://thumb17.webshots.com/t/48/49/1/38/98/2406138980091740477axHkyR_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2406138980091740477axHkyR)

Thats what I see of the Back page of APG. Theyve released stocks so People can "combine the speed and accuracy of Tourney markers with the stocks, grips and tricks of Woodsball and theyre takeing the 2006 SPPL Scenario Tourney season By storm. 'Hybrid' Tourney/Woods Play is the wave of the Future" Thats just crazy. Who in their RIght mind would do that to a Trix or Karni? Its just wrong I tell you...

[soccerjacks12]

T2W?
That's like 3 or 4 months old. And yes it is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

[trophyman582]

SpecOps went to far when they were founded. The shop has created absolutely nothing of use.

[Kung_fu_hippe]

Thats nothing. They turned an ion into a longbow...

[drunkenMonkey]

Most...if not all of pbr has a deep hate for spec ops.

[gage713]

total hotness....im gunna have to one of those up:dodgy: i still dont understand the point of stock on a paintball gun....the tank can already be used to hold up the gun

[TiPpYsGaLoRe]

Lol, Revvys.

[Crede777]

You laugh, but those things WOULD make it easier for backmen to pod their hoppers one handed. You just prop your marker against your shoulder, leaving one hand free to pod.

Of course, I'd never get one...

[spydadude]

Of course, I'd never get one...
I can just see a G4H Ego with a stock and remote on it now. It makes me puke.

[BunkerBoys]

How could they defile such a beautiful trix?

[iplaynaked]

who gives a ****? if they want to do it let them do it. chances are scenario players and APG readers don't care what most of you wanna be tourney ballers think.

[jdolla]

Ok.........it's a gas-thru stock....

Most tourney players would rather die than use a remote line.

[mrcheetos]

I never understood the use of a stock. I'm a devoted woodsball player, and I have used a folding stock on my 98c for a bit.

I took it off because I couldn't aim down the sights, if I wanted to, I would've had to spend 80+ dollars to do so. Stocks were made because frankly, rifles and machine guns are heavy, and have larger recoil than a paintball marker. What's the use of a stock if you can hardly sight down the rail unless the sights are like six inches above the sights.

Unless you're comfortable with a stock, I have no problem, but if you believe it does anything else but provide a comfortable experience holding your marker, I do.

[Tweeters]

yeh...dude at least they get the performance they deserve as paintballers. i'm actualyl thankful for spec ops right now, they're catching on.

[Stan the HitMan]

Man those are secks....in a cheap hotel room with a transvestite...

[Sheps]

You laugh, but those things WOULD make it easier for backmen to pod their hoppers one handed. You just prop your marker against your shoulder, leaving one hand free to pod.

Of course, I'd never get one...
Good point, although the stocks pictured are all wrong for it anyways.

I thing an ideal stock would have an integrated on/off ASA, would bend downwards (so you can still screw your tank in to the normal place), have a nice thick curved rubber butt-plate, and would have a replacable "arm", which would allow you to lengthen the stock to fit larger tanks; without being flimsy like most other adjustable stocks.

The end result would be a stock that bends under the tank, ends in a pl;ate that makes it easy to hold the marker one-handed, would protect the tank while sliding, and wouldn't necesitate a remote.

[joethemetaldude]

http://thumb17.webshots.com/t/59/59/9/62/23/2404962230091740477kPConA_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2404962230091740477kPConA)

http://thumb17.webshots.com/t/48/49/1/38/98/2406138980091740477axHkyR_th.jpg (http://community.webshots.com/photo/2406138980091740477axHkyR)

Thats what I see of the Back page of APG. Theyve released stocks so People can "combine the speed and accuracy of Tourney markers with the stocks, grips and tricks of Woodsball and theyre takeing the 2006 SPPL Scenario Tourney season By storm. 'Hybrid' Tourney/Woods Play is the wave of the Future" Thats just crazy. Who in their RIght mind would do that to a Trix or Karni? Its just wrong I tell you...

just like the ole saying... whatever floats your boat. I think whatever they come up with and give us more choices to choose from its great. You may not want to use it but others may... I think its cool but I wouldn't use one personally.

[iliveforthis99]

Yeah i saw that today and wept all those poor guns. But their nickname isn't stink ops for nothing.

[j_dog0416]

Well, the karni wasn't reaching too far. WGP DID try and make some kind of scenario cocker if I remember right.

[palidon11]

Well, the karni wasn't reaching too far. WGP DID try and make some kind of scenario cocker if I remember right.

yeah, the VF tactical. never really took off i dont think.

[Kung_fu_hippe]

yeah, the VF tactical. never really took off i dont think.

One of my friends picked one up, he said it wasn't half bad.

[Mr.Blah]

I don't see what's so wrong with these? It's not like they're printing nazi stickers or anything (which some people do). Besides, do you REALLY think people with high-end guns are going to use these? It's going to be the kid with a spyder or older cocker who will use these.

BTW WGP also made a trilogy tactical, I almost got one even (then I found out the truth about trilies

[iliveforthis99]

What's wrong here is like you doing something totally stupid in front of a lot of people. You'll never look at your self the same way.

[...sniper...]

they have tooken it WAY to far i mean with the SP-8 out i was like mmm that a cool woodsball marker then they made the ion into some other like puting a stock tactical body and crap thats a "no no" in my books

[Mr.Blah]

What's wrong here is like you doing something totally stupid in front of a lot of people. You'll never look at your self the same way.
Heck, I've heard people say the same thing about George Bush, and he got re-elected.:rolleyes:
Looking stupid is fine, It's when you start doing stupid and/or dangerous things that intervention is needed.

[iliveforthis99]

Yeah that's true.

[Mr Murderdoll89]

Who gives a **** anymore.

[Oni Gumo]

I can't really see why it matters, if the player is comfortable with it, let them use it. Atleast they didn't bolt rails all over the Matrix. Generally, though...I'd say stocks are only useful with pumps, due to the lack of a tank to shoulder.

[PBGideonPB]

lol, looking stupid in front of people... that's really funny. I take it the bunch of you are speedballers and tourney players? Its a darn shame you guys can't recognize the differences betwtween your guns, like a VF tactical and a karni. That's right, lookit the picture again. The trixes are generally very popular in woodsball because of their low recoil and how quiet they are. Both the tactical and the dm are probably used more in woodsball than you will ever know in speedball. There's also a heavy advertisement and popularity scenario and woodsball there because most players are older and they don't have to beg mom and dad for the money or work an entire summer to make the money and get one... they generally have the dough to slap down for whatever toy they want. What i'm trying to say is it just sounds stupid when you guys whine about how woodsballers took your gun when you guys have no clue what your talkinga bout. oh yeah, btw? The long bow is a mag not some ridiculous ion.

i rock both schools with an alias intimidator. And both fun types of play are fun, but there are the same gimmicks in both.

[Oni Gumo]

DMs are going to be seen in far greater quantity on a speedball field rather than in the woods, because speedball and tournament play generally have more high end markers scattered about.

Noone is talking down on woodsball as much as SpecOps. They're laughable no matter what you play. The fact of the matter is, if you have a tank on your marker, there is no reason to have a stock. SpecOps does nothing but push their own overpriced and, 9 times out of ten, useless products. It's rather odd that you have to try and go on the offensive yourself, stereotyping all speedball players as whiney children who can't afford their own gear, considering that noone insulted woodsball in any way, despite what SpecOps may tell you about woodsball and their patent on the word.

[PBGideonPB]

its not they're attacking woodsball, it's the ignorance that gets to me. The things I said are by and large true about the complete mismatch of markers. You don't like a stock? Fine, don't like the stock. My beef didn't lie there. It's with the person who talked derisively about an ion being turned into a long bow... as if it were a bad thing? And they didn't even get the marker RIGHT?! The people who are like "they defiled those precious tourney markers" ... and they got a marker wrong with that too?

I have a problem with the people who responded in i that sort of manner and tried to claim high end markers as they're own, regardless of the fact they claimed the wrong ones. And do you honestly want to argue the fact that MOST speedballers are whiny children/teens? As far as you argueing about how many dm's appear in woods vs. in speedball, i'm just going to assume your not an avid scenario guy, because if you've ever been to a large scenario game, you'll realize how many people ball with ridiculously high end gats. They are just not represented in online forums. Majority of paintballers are woodsballers. Most people who play paintball do so in the woods. Spec ops puts a lot of time into propoganda and marketing... I'm guessing they chose to put a trix in there for a reason.

I don't give a crap about the stock. Or Spec Ops. I care about people making some thought before they talk. Look what happened to pbn.

[A-5best]

Who gives a **** anymore.

QFT, if you dont like it, dont worry about it.

[lawnboi]

spec ops crossed the line a long time ago.

http://media.specialopspaintball.com/mailers/images/panzerwagon_01.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:ol('http://specialops.c.topica.com/maaeYBAabrV9hckvenPcafpPYf/');)
http://media.specialopspaintball.com/mailers/images/panzerwagon_02.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:ol('http://specialops.c.topica.com/maaeYBAabrV9hckvenPcafpPYf/');)
http://media.specialopspaintball.com/mailers/images/panzerwagon_03.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:ol('http://specialops.c.topica.com/maaeYBAabrV9hckvenPcafpPYf/');)
Lawl
http://media.specialopspaintball.com/videovault/panzerwagon02.asp

yea, found this in the mwp thread, there turning nazi

[trophyman582]

Lolz, SpecOps = new pb Nazis.

[TiPpYsGaLoRe]

They can't even get German right. It would be Panzerwagen. :dodgy:

[j_dog0416]

Good Lord, that takes it waaay too far. I don't even want to go to D-day anymore.

[Oni Gumo]

its not they're attacking woodsball, it's the ignorance that gets to me. The things I said are by and large true about the complete mismatch of markers. You don't like a stock? Fine, don't like the stock. My beef didn't lie there. It's with the person who talked derisively about an ion being turned into a long bow... as if it were a bad thing? And they didn't even get the marker RIGHT?! The people who are like "they defiled those precious tourney markers" ... and they got a marker wrong with that too?

They were referring to the Blackcell Ion, which does resemble the longbow for Mags. It's thought of as a rather pointless modification because it does nothing but add extra weight to the marker. The only marker they got wrong was the 'Cocker, which, honestly, does look like a Karni if you don't enlarge the picture. What's worse, getting one or two facts wrong, or getting angry to the point of ranting about those said facts?

I have a problem with the people who responded in i that sort of manner and tried to claim high end markers as they're own, regardless of the fact they claimed the wrong ones. And do you honestly want to argue the fact that MOST speedballers are whiny children/teens? As far as you argueing about how many dm's appear in woods vs. in speedball, i'm just going to assume your not an avid scenario guy, because if you've ever been to a large scenario game, you'll realize how many people ball with ridiculously high end gats. They are just not represented in online forums. Majority of paintballers are woodsballers. Most people who play paintball do so in the woods. Spec ops puts a lot of time into propoganda and marketing... I'm guessing they chose to put a trix in there for a reason.

The only person I see who said it shouldn't be done to a high end is the thread's author. Most people responded in a "I couldn't care less" fashion, and the ones who did object were more against SpecOps as a company, or the (unneeded) usage of stocks on a marker where a tank could be used for the same purpose.

There you go again, stereotyping. Would you agree if I said all woodsball players were old men stuck thinking they were in Vietnam? Of course you wouldn't, because that isn't true. It's a broad generalization with little to no truth behind it.

As for seeing more high ends on a field, I was talking percentage. Take 300 recballers, then 300 tourney players. Now who, based on percentage, is more likely to have a larger concentration of high end markers?

Sorry, but I like to stay away from companies who pretend their way is the only way, the companies that copyright words such as Woodsball.

I don't give a crap about the stock. Or Spec Ops. I care about people making some thought before they talk. Look what happened to pbn.

If you care so much about people thinking before they type, reflect on what you've said in this thread. You've done nothing but try and belittle us "tourney and speedball kids." If you're posting has nothing to do with the topic at hand, that is the stocks and the company creating them, then what point is there in posting such a prevocative message?



Edit: Just noticed something, so far as mismatching markers goes. Not only did a few members mistake it for a Karni, SpecOps mistook it for a Tactical Trilogy (read the text wrapping under the image) when it is, in fact, a VF Tactical.

[Sheps]

They can't even get German right. It would be Panzerkampfwagen. :dodgy:

[PBGideonPB]

My point in sending that prOvocative message was to stop people from the direction they were going. Half of the things being said in the thread didn't pertain to the original topic, so I wasn't hijacking, it was already drifting off. All you're doing, oni, is desperately trying to defend what I'm attacking by trying to find errors in my arguement, but even these are strained because my statements were originally correct. A black cell ion is not a longbow. Just like a vf tactical is not a karni. It's like people getting pissed newbies confuse their ego's with spyders. If people weren't completely dedicated to the tourney scene they wouldn't have made that error. You can justify it all you want, but it was wrong.

And you don't support companies who pretend their way is the only way? You mean like all the other propoganda? "We Do Paintball". The "Godfather of Paintball". "The new PM6, designed to put you on top of the podium". Those aren't egotistical statements? SHUT UP. SpecOps is marketing to a different customer base. They downplay speedballers because it makes the woodsballers feel good about themselves, and gives them hope. If you put away hurt feelings, it's a sound strategy.

And you can stereotype all you want. I straddle the fence. Being a tired old man playing with new toys, remember a time of the past.... is that a lot worse than being a whiny boy/teen? Whatever, I don't have a problem with people calling each other names, but you seem to. Furthermore, when I say 'most' i'm statistically correct because it's true from survey's of warpig and pbstar that THE MAJORITY of speedballers fall into an age category which i can accurately describe as kids and teens. So aside from the 'whiny' part, i was technically correct, and even that was put in to make a point. I'm not going to give you the benefit of telling you where to look for the woodsballers demographic, you look that up if you want it. There you go again, completely missing the validity of my arguement. Oh, here's another hole you have in your post: I said MOST which is implicitly describes the 'number of'. So if there are 100 woodsballers who have dm's, and 75 speedballers who have dm's. Who has more dm's? The woodsballers. Why are you talking about precentages? Because you're trying to squirm out of your original post. You can't interchange percentages and hard numbers around, because it'd be like confusing pm's with dm's and this with that and yadda yadda yadda


Because i ranted about it, one of the many viewers or posters of this thread may observe before commenting, and put a tad bit more thought into their statements. That was all i was hoping for in the first place. So yes, it is much better to correct something than to let it go on and on when you have the ability to change it. Maybe I was in a bad mood, and it might have been a little 'stern', but the fact is i feel like i'm vindicated in my original argument. How's that for reflection?

Oh, and if you want to make personal attacks, you can take it to the pm's, or i'll keep shooting down your arguments while you make excuses. I'll let you do that first because your original posts were aimed at me individually.

[Oni Gumo]

Most of the posts I can see seem to deal with the original topic, not a childish rant.

The "propaganda?" I use a Phantom. CCI has never taken much part in the cheap-shot advertising, and Mike still sales his products.

I'm not the one using personal attacks. Go back and read my messages.

I'll quote your attacks;

And do you honestly want to argue the fact that MOST speedballers are whiny children/teens?
is that a lot worse than being a whiny boy/teen?

As for the percentages...common sense says if you have more players, you're more likely to have more of a certain marker or trait.

This'll be my last post in this because, honestly, this is a pointless argument. You're adding to the facts to back up your argument, and doing your best to insinuate that all speedballers and tourney players are whiney children. I'd rather be whiny than bratty.

[soccerjacks12]

Yeah I posted that:banana: And SpecOps is overpriced.

[PBGideonPB]

it's not whiny or bratty, it's just blunt... because it's true. I'm not saying because there are speedballers there are more of these kinds of people, i'm saying more of these kinds of people become speedballers. A lot of people in the pbreview vs pbnation are probably argueing my case right now.

and you think individuals use the phantom more for woodsball or for stock/pump tourney play? Furthermore, I never said you bought into that kind of marketing, because i don't know you. If you use a phantom, great. Except i didn't say anything about a phantom. The stuff i quoted was from wdp, bob long, and dye. There are others, but there's no point, i showed that you can't single out spec ops for being outspoken because a lot of other companies do it as well.

and you picked poor examples of attacks from my post.

-"SHUT UP"

that's a much better example.
and your's?

-"There you go again, stereotyping."

-"If you're posting has nothing to do with the topic at hand, that is the stocks and the company creating them, then what point is there in posting such a prevocative message?"

I suppose i'll have to stop posting now too if you don't give me any else to set on fire.

[Oni Gumo]

I lied. :P

it's not whiny or bratty, it's just blunt... because it's true. I'm not saying because there are speedballers there are more of these kinds of people, i'm saying more of these kinds of people become speedballers. A lot of people in the pbreview vs pbnation are probably argueing my case right now.

and you think individuals use the phantom more for woodsball or for stock/pump tourney play? Furthermore, I never said you bought into that kind of marketing, because i don't know you. If you use a phantom, great. Except i didn't say anything about a phantom. The stuff i quoted was from wdp, bob long, and dye. There are others, but there's no point, i showed that you can't single out spec ops for being outspoken because a lot of other companies do it as well.

You missed my point. "And you don't support companies who pretend their way is the only way? You mean like all the other propoganda? "We Do Paintball". The "Godfather of Paintball". "The new PM6, designed to put you on top of the podium"." Looks to me like you were insinuating that I was a hypocrite for using products from the mentioned companies. Just because I didn't mention their advertising doesn't mean I fully support it. However, those methods of advertisement do not mention style of play in any way, they merely refer to the product line they are selling. SpecOps discredits speedball as a style of play while advertising their products.


and you picked poor examples of attacks from my post.

-"SHUT UP"

that's a much better example.
and your's?

-"There you go again, stereotyping."

I don't believe saying you are using stereotypes against us is an attack on you, it's pointing out what you are, in fact, doing.

-"If you're posting has nothing to do with the topic at hand, that is the stocks and the company creating them, then what point is there in posting such a prevocative message?"

It's an attack to ask why you posted a trolling message?

I suppose i'll have to stop posting now too if you don't give me any else to set on fire.

[stuntman]

Whats wrong with stocks? Some people like them, some people dont & thats ok. I dont use one now, but in the past I have used stocks on different guns. Worked well sometimes, not worth it other times.
Ya see, in the woods you carry you gun differently. In speedball, the moment the horn blows, youve got your gun up in the "ready to fire" position, and it stays that way untill the game ends. In the woods, a single game may last for 1/2 hour, and you cant/dont need to have your gun "ready" for miniutes at a time, which means you spend alot of time holding your gun at port. Thats why woods guys often use remote lines - to take the weight off the arms. So without a tank, youve got nothing to brace your shoulder into, and the balance of the gun is completely different. Stocks help maintain balance when using a remote air system.
Dont be so quick to dismiss other people equipment just because you dont understand what its for. It just makes you sound ignorant...

[stuntman]

spec ops crossed the line a long time ago.


yea, found this in the mwp thread, there turning nazi

They call it a "Scenario" for a reason. Lighten up.

Why are so many people here so upset that some people have fun with paintball in a different way than they do? Whats so bad about trying something new. Anyone here ever actually played on a field with tanks before? ..... I didnt think so. Ever played in a scenario?.....Obviously not. Ever played with a pump?....Ever opened your brain long enough to actually LEARN something? Probably not...

As to the Panzerwagon - before you call somebody a Nazi, you better be DAMN sure of your facts. I challenge anyone here to show me a swastika or even a Maltese cross ANYWHERE on ANYTHING produced by/for Spec Ops. Couldnt find one could you?...again, I didnt think so.
Appereantly, Spec Ops has committed the unpardonable sin of actually catering to woodsballers. <gasp!> Imagine the horror...a whole forum full of people who dont usually play sppedball...no wonder all you children are so frightened.

[TiPpYsGaLoRe]

When will people learn that woodsball =/= Mil-Sim?

Probably never.

[PBGideonPB]

oh okay, i'm glad you posted again.

So you want to be picky? You previously accused me of attacking, and quoted two examples, both of which are questions. Why did you pick those out? Was it because you can read between the lines? If you can, then you're holding a double standard, and your justifications for why your post is innocent just went kaput. We then assume you were attacking me, and that is the reason for my response.

And why would you take the time to make such a post in the first place? You are now argueing more about why i posted, and accusing me of trolling because the content of what i originally posted was largely true. The reason you're still fighting is because of your ego, not your phantom. Ha, Ha.

When you talk about SpecOps discrediting speedball as a style of play, you should have just quoted me again, because i conceded that. You just don't seem to pick up on this. I however, am of the camp that says it's just sales and marketing. Are you angry because a company you don't support or care about is talking down on your lifestyle, or your sport, or your hobby, or whatever? That's pretty insecure, touchy, and/or whiny. Yeah, that word again. Whiny.

Consider your history of misreading my intent in: why i stated the discrepency of the markers, the validity of my statement in the discrepency in the markers, the statistical meaning of 'most', and the identification of a literary 'attack'

Keep fighting. I am your Inuyasha.

And that whole anime series is just dragon ball Z for girls.

[Oni Gumo]

oh okay, i'm glad you posted again.

So you want to be picky? You previously accused me of attacking, and quoted two examples, both of which are questions. Why did you pick those out? Was it because you can read between the lines? If you can, then you're holding a double standard, and your justifications for why your post is innocent just went kaput. We then assume you were attacking me, and that is the reason for my response.

Your questions weren't the part that could be seen as antagonistic, and you know that. It was the fact that you made sure to refer to us as whiney kids. :)

And why would you take the time to make such a post in the first place? You are now argueing more about why i posted, and accusing me of trolling because the content of what i originally posted was largely true. The reason you're still fighting is because of your ego, not your phantom. Ha, Ha.

Your original post hinted that "tourney and speedball players" are all whiney kids and that everyone in this thread was against you, despite the fact that only a few people have actually criticized the use of a stock on the mentioned markers. If you'll notice, I posted in the topic before you ever entered the discussion, I was already posting in it. I simply replied to your message.

When you talk about SpecOps discrediting speedball as a style of play, you should have just quoted me again, because i conceded that. You just don't seem to pick up on this. I however, am of the camp that says it's just sales and marketing. Are you angry because a company you don't support or care about is talking down on your lifestyle, or your sport, or your hobby, or whatever? That's pretty insecure, touchy, and/or whiny. Yeah, that word again. Whiny.

I'm not angry at all, SpecOps is laughable at best. It's not just us "speedballers" who think that, it's a pretty common train of thought. Maybe that is for a reason. Their products are overpriced, they copy designs and deny it when questioned about it. (The Longbow's spring feed? It's almost a direct copy of one created by Lee "Punisher" Kinney. They admitted in an email to Lee that they stole his design, but denied it when it was brought out on their forums.) The truth of the matter is, they don't contribute much to paintball. Their products are overpriced, and many are pretty much useless. If I were going to use a gas through stock, I think I'd trust one that doesn't look to have been hobbled together in a few minutes time.

Consider your history of misreading my intent in: why i stated the discrepency of the markers, the validity of my statement in the discrepency in the markers, the statistical meaning of 'most', and the identification of a literary 'attack'

Keep fighting. I am your Inuyasha.

Haha. You do know oni gumo has a meaning, right? They're words. It isn't just a name from an anime.
http://www.cyberoz.net/city/sekine/zukax211.htm
If you want to try some childish mudslinging, please know what you're talking about.

And that whole anime series is just dragon ball Z for girls.

[/thread], anyone?

[lawnboi]

fighting on the internet is like the special olympics, even if you win your still retarded.

[PBGideonPB]

You quoted my questions as being my attacks. You did that. I don't know your intentions.

I never called "you guys" a bunch of whiny kids. I tried to establish if you guys were heavily into the speedball scene with a question. I then proceeded to make comments about speedballers in general. How clever of me?! By doing that I cannot be accused of calling you whiny, because You being a speedballer and MOST speedballers being whiny does not necassarily make YOU whiny. I want you to note what the words i put in caps. You can't pin anything on me, because you made the association in your head.

If you haven't gotten it already, waving your hands around and making false accusations kind of gets to me. Like when you accuse me of saying 'all' tourney and speedballers are this and 'all' tourney and speedballers are that. I said MOST because i wanted to give people like you a way out, and because I'M A TOURNEY BALLER. and stop plugging your thoughts about SpecOps. Did i mention how i didn't care about SpecOps? Oh right, i did. You probably confused that along with: why i stated the discrepency of the markers, the validity of my statement in the discrepency in the markers, the statistical meaning of 'most', the identification of a literary 'attack', and the difference between the words 'most' and 'the majority' vs. 'all'.

I tried to reconcile by taking this to the pm's. It's okay though. Because you couldn't handle dropping a thread, I will instead. Keep pumping it Oni Gumo.

[Uziel Gal]

[/thread], anyone?

Gets my vote.