Is The Sport of Paintball at it's peak???

[m98sniper15]

Do you guy think that paintball is at its peak point, or is paintball just starting to become something great that will carry on for my decades?
My pesonal thought is that in like 5-10 years paintball will be at it's peak. I want to hear what you think.


m98sniper15

[coolrazer]

Paintball won't be at its peak until we have one unified league and one format. You don't see baseball and football teams playing in two different leagues and playing under two different sets of rules.

[m98sniper15]

Thanks coolrazer, I think your right. I just wish we had a unified league. I'm going to try and go pro in paintball. I' going to get a WGP Karnivor or $800 in the spring. I have time to work at the sport because i'm only 15.

m98sniper15

[coolrazer]

I'm going to try and go pro in paintball.

You and about 1,000,000 others...myself included.

Good luck.

[My Own Abyss]

To me, "Peak" implies a decline is coming soon. I don't see paintball having a shortage of players, considering all the cheap mid-ends that come out. There are a lot of fronts which you could argue, however. For example, you could say High ends are at their peak, just look at the HUGE step forward between the DM6 and DM7.

[m98sniper15]

Thanks coolrazer, When I said peak I meant that there is a decline coming soon, but i'm not sure if paintball is at its peak Its just I've talked to pople at my local paintball store and they say there just not the customers there use to be. I think its because of the people that buy from the internet. Compare the prices at you local PB store and to the Internet. The Internet kicks butt with prices. Would you agree?

m98sniper15

[Team Chokepoint]

Paintball won't be at its peak until we have one unified league and one format. You don't see baseball and football teams playing in two different leagues and playing under two different sets of rules.

No quite right, the American and National Leagues have slightly different rules. But I agree with your general point ;)

[coolrazer]

Other than a DH?

[My Own Abyss]

No doubt internet prices are cheaper, but I try to buy all my stuff from my local stores. You get to actually touch and feel the product, something the internet cannot match. Plus, I like to support my field, the guys who run it are really nice and put almost every profit they make into upgrading the field.

[elfwoo2]

no

[EEric22]

Thanks coolrazer, When I said peak I meant that there is a decline coming soon, but i'm not sure if paintball is at its peak Its just I've talked to pople at my local paintball store and they say there just not the customers there use to be. I think its because of the people that buy from the internet. Compare the prices at you local PB store and to the Internet. The Internet kicks butt with prices. Would you agree?

m98sniper15

Depending on what you're buying shipping adds enough to make the prices pretty similar in the end.

[EcLIPSEDrEw]

no, I think paintball has just began to start to get big, look at some of the other sports and look at how long its taken them to be found, usally most the ppl i meet dont know barly anything about paintball, but if you went to someone and asked them who their faverite team is, from what ever other populer sport there most likely gonna name a team and know a little bit about it.

[iplaynaked]

Thanks coolrazer, When I said peak I meant that there is a decline coming soon, but i'm not sure if paintball is at its peak Its just I've talked to pople at my local paintball store and they say there just not the customers there use to be. I think its because of the people that buy from the internet. Compare the prices at you local PB store and to the Internet. The Internet kicks butt with prices. Would you agree?

m98sniper15
once you factor in shipping and such its rarely much of a difference. plus if you buy something on line and it breaks you either have to A) ship it to god knows where or B) overpay at a local proshop to have it fixed. then theres the whole "not letting every last proshop go under" thing.

It's what, 25-30 years old? saying its at its peak, or even remotely close, is a joke especially once you consider its recent growth rate.

[elfwoo2]

lol i dont know what store you go to but ours is getting so many more people every year that we've opened up two new stores in the past 2 years.

and new fields

[Jeff_Meister]

You and about 1,000,000 others...myself included.

Good luck.

Exactly everyone is trying to its a lot easier said than done look at all those kids who think they'll play NFL...or NHL...or whatever...

[nerys]

well one of the biggest reasons for consolidation of "leagues" in other sports has far less to do with popularity so much as commercialization. but I guess the end result is the same more exposure and more players. always a good thing in the end :-)

[dead head]

Paintball won't be at its peak until we have one unified league and one format. You don't see baseball and football teams playing in two different leagues and playing under two different sets of rules.

:tup:

[Tweeter]

I agree with Nerys because I agree with coolrazer. Until one league pretty much destroys the others (c'mon psp, you can do it!), paintball isn't going to get the same growth and exposure that other sports do. Not that other sports don't have separate leagues (The oil Kings are supposed to be doing pretty good in the WHL these days), I'm just saying nobody cares about the other ones.

Once there is a main league, suddenly a lot of outside sponsors are going to start showing up, much like Intel and BAWLS, and then you got a bunch of companies and products that expose the sport in some way. This'll get huge(er) exposure to the general public, and since nobody can resist just how awesome paintball is, every country in the world with make it the nation sport and 1 in 3 people will be able to carry out a decent discussion based on how their local(ish) teams are doing this year.

But I'd have to say that if PSP and NPPL don't sort out their differences, there's still a lot of room for growth and I don't see that slowing to a halt any time soon. I myself am at least partly responsible for a paintball uprising over here, and I see more and more people every day who are starting to take interest in one form or another of paintball.

[iplaynaked]

lol i dont know what store you go to but ours is getting so many more people every year that we've opened up two new stores in the past 2 years.

and new fields
PBC is ****ing huge, they'll never have issues. 80% of the stores dont have the customer base PBC does in case you havent noticed. i just think its funny when people whine about prices in proshops and then their local one goes out of buisness. but thats besides the point.


ironically enough my mom just told me about how one of the accountants or something like that (aka not your average paintball type) went up to NH over break with his family (not just immediate, sisters/neices/nephews etc.) to go skiing...anyone in the north east knows how ****ty of a winter its been for skiing so they did what? paintball. they all loved it, he came into the office today saying how he was hooked.

[Tweeters]

You really can't kill either format though, they both bring out the great aspects of the game. With 7 man you've always got a story with your tournament and a struggle, and X-ball brings out taht ratatatatat tat tat in your face renegade aspect of paintball that drew many of us to the sport in the first place.

We can't really expect paintball to boom into something like baseball or basketball becaues paintball is just completely different game, the fact that we have two formats isn't why whats going to hold paintball back. Paintball needs more refinement, I'm not talking about cheating or arguing with the refs, I'm talking about anger regulation. Take the NPPL thing on ESPN that was on a while ago, we saw some cheating and we saw some arguing with the ref, neither of those hurt the public's view on paintball; what I believe hurt was the fact that Rocky Knuth was able to shoot Ryan Greenspan in the face after he was dead and only came out without a personal foul is what holds us back, the fact that we shrug off stuff like that by saying "It's paintball, people get mad," is, I think, something we need to fix.

You might be thinking "Tweeters, are you retarded? What about all the cheating, isnt that a worse problem?" And I say no, because its frickin cool when you get see someone cheating, that is sports entertainment. People are looking for chaos within order, they want to see the cheating but they could careless for some guy's temper, they'll cheer and oh for Lasoya when he pops Kyle Stahl in the back or when some kid cusses out a ref, but it just looks plain silly watching some dude take out his anger in a way thats, how do i say this, not within the game.

But that's just one of many things that when added together, Paintball's success depends on a little bit of luck and a little bit of corporate shrewdness. That's another thing, paintball needs better marketing, opening up a paintball magazine is like, watching a Scorsese film with really bad infomercials every 2 minutes.

okthanksguys.

[m98sniper15]

[quote=iplaynaked;3859581]once you factor in shipping and such its rarely much of a difference. plus if you buy something on line and it breaks you either have to A) ship it to god knows where or B) overpay at a local proshop to have it fixed. then theres the whole "not letting every last proshop go under" thing.

Well I was basing my facts on Dunham's Sporting Goods. Like the Autococker Trilogy Pro it $250. Go online and you can find the marker new for $150 shipped. Thats $100 saved. Try ebay and save even more. I have to say not all markers are cheaper on the web. Like all Tippmann are about the same price even on the web. The Spyder Pilot 06' at my Local PB store is $145. Internet price $120 shipped. $25 saved, it all adds up after a while.

m98sniper15

[iplaynaked]

and once that breaks you'll spend more than $25 at the proshop having it fixed.



dontsignyournamenoob

[Tweeters]

tweeters

[Lopez17]

Here's my take on this discussion. I've been playing recreationally for about 15 years now, on and off...mostly outlaw ball back in the early 90's since there really weren't a great deal of structured fields. You also didn't have the availability of paintball equipment back then that you do now. I played a few times in college and since I've moved down here.

As prices have come down on everything from Spyders and Tippmans at the entry level to the Electro markers you're seeing the barriers to entry removed. With internet sales you've seen a boom in the ability of people who live in remote areas without dedicated paintball retail stores to obtain items they would have otherwise had a hard time getting five to ten years ago. Additionally paint has been standardized at 2000 rounds to a case and distribution of paint and equipment has become more efficient as well. With paint prices and marker innovations driving down costs you have the ability to cater to a much larger clientele than in the past.

Now...couple this with more fields getting into the act and paintball getting more exposure and you have surges in players. Each year I keep seeing more and more people playing the game. However, most of this discussion is centralized on tournament paintball. Most every field/store will tell you that tournament paintball isn't the huge revenue cash cow of the sport...it's actually woodsball. Proportionally more people will play woodsball than hyperball or speedball due to the preponderance of woodsball fields (including outlaw ball) and the fact that most entry level markers (mainly the Tippman lines) are more or less designed for woodsball/recball markets. The low end side of the sport keeps seeing markers drop in price, from Tippmans to Ions, etc. and this is where you'll see most players come in and where most of the stores make sales. This is the engine that drives the sport. Hyperball is the flashy exterior that makes you want to get behind the wheel.

The media coverage of the NPPL and other leagues has done nothing but good things bringing exposure to the sport, leagues, etc. ESPN's coverage has been watched by many people in my office/company and I regularly get asked when my next paintball outing is going to be and other types of paintball questions. I've had a dozen or so colleagues go buy markers in the last 6 months, indirectly as a result of that TV coverage. The negative aspects like wiping, cheating, etc. and the worrying about outsiders perspectives is generally something that people in the forums posture and speculate about. Most outsiders don't really care so much. Like my co-workers they see the game on TV...go to their local field...rent some equipment. Play recball. Enjoy recball. Go buy a 98 or a Spyder. Then an Ion. Then maybe something higher end. But as long as we keep seeing growth in media coverage, declines in prices (or better equipment selling for less money) and expansions in stores/fields, we'll continue to ride a curve of growth.

Another upside that's actually benefiting lots of players is the preponderance of quality markers in the "used" market, which serves as a mechanism for people to recycle their old markers, buy new ones and at the same time provide low cost alternatives to players. This helps keep a very even playing field.

In the tournament scene, growth is somewhat hamstrung by two different leagues (three if you count the NXL as somewhat separate than PSP) and the uneven approach they've taken to playing the game. I personally think the NPPL has done a better job of commercializing and marketing the game to outsiders, investors, TV, and players. The PSP has some great ideas as well but their execution leaves a lot to be desired. Most outsiders are somewhat oblivious to this though.

My thought is that we'll probably see continued growth for the next 3-5 years at least and may reach a nadir at some point after that but I wouldn't expect huge growth or a huge drop off.

For example, you could say High ends are at their peak, just look at the HUGE step forward between the DM6 and DM7

You forgot the dodgy. :dodgy:

[m98sniper15]

Thats pretty cool Lopez. I enjoy hearing people talk about paintball backrounds from the 80's 90's.

[tviz]

Thanks coolrazer, When I said peak I meant that there is a decline coming soon, but i'm not sure if paintball is at its peak Its just I've talked to pople at my local paintball store and they say there just not the customers there use to be. I think its because of the people that buy from the internet. Compare the prices at you local PB store and to the Internet. The Internet kicks butt with prices. Would you agree?

m98sniper15

The place i go to has exactly the same prices as on the internet except for paint which is more expensive but you dont have to pay shipping on it and its fresh unlike some internet stores that could buy 1,000,000 cases and put em all in a warehouse and you wouldent know untill you got it and had pancake paintballs.

[Tweeters]

actually pb already hit a little decline a while ago. i forget where/when. i dunno, i've never noticed any changes (aside from gear) these last few years. i might just be oblivi

[coolrazer]

Well they've gotten to the point that they can't really do anything else to improve the gear except take a couple ounces and some height off and charge 300 more bucks than the previous year's model.

[Tweeter]

There actually hasn't been any decline in paintball over the past while. The only reason you hear about low numbers in players etc. is that manufacturers expected more growth than they got, and hadn't planned for any decrease in growth rates. If you take a look at the numbers over the past few years, there's been an increase of hundreds of thousands of players each year, but in the past one or two years, there's just less dramatic jumps.

[PaintballNewb13]

around here, I can tell you that in the last year it has grown incredibly, I know many, many people that are just getting into or have just gotten into it in the last year or so, especially at my school.

[Tweeters]

more like i've heard a lot of stuff (this was like last year) about how Bob Long was talking about his sales dropping lately and other companies talking about the same things.

[m98sniper15]

around here, I can tell you that in the last year it has grown incredibly, I know many, many people that are just getting into or have just gotten into it in the last year or so, especially at my school.

I really agree with that. Alot of people own markers they just don't have places to play. The clostest field to my house about 50 miles. I normaly play woodsball with my friends once a month. But now that winters here were not playing at all. Me and all my friends bought $2,500 woth of marker 2 year ago.


m98sniper15

[southern_pber]

[quote=iplaynaked;3859581]once you factor in shipping and such its rarely much of a difference. plus if you buy something on line and it breaks you either have to A) ship it to god knows where or B) overpay at a local proshop to have it fixed. then theres the whole "not letting every last proshop go under" thing.

Well I was basing my facts on Dunham's Sporting Goods. Like the Autococker Trilogy Pro it $250. Go online and you can find the marker new for $150 shipped. Thats $100 saved. Try ebay and save even more. I have to say not all markers are cheaper on the web. Like all Tippmann are about the same price even on the web. The Spyder Pilot 06' at my Local PB store is $145. Internet price $120 shipped. $25 saved, it all adds up after a while.

m98sniper15

The reason these low-end highly available markers are about the same prices is because alot of times the company that produces the markers make the vendors sign a contract to sell a certain gun for a certain price. I dont know about spyder, or smartparts, but i am pretty sure that i read somewhere that tippmann making dealers sign contracts to sell the gun for a certain price, so no matter how popluar the guns are, and how few there are you have to sell them for a certain price. I belive this is why that on most paintball sights the tippmann markers have "too low to show" as the price and then you then add it to the cart so you can see the price. I think this is really good for the sport, it keeps the proshops from selling the guns to someone who has no idea what he is buying, and him paying well upwards of what the gun is really worth in the market.

To keep paintball on this large growth curve that we are now on we have to keep it cheap. Paintball is a very expensive hobby for the average american. Its not like something where you can buy just one item and be set. You have to buy, CO2 (sometimes air, but for the most part for beginners its CO2). If we can keep it cheap enough for the average joe to really just start in the sport, i think they will almost certainly fall in love the sport itself. Im not exactly sure we can make the paintballs much cheaper than they are right now. So we just need to try to make everything else chaper

[iplaynaked]

The reason these low-end highly available markers are about the same prices is because alot of times the company that produces the markers make the vendors sign a contract to sell a certain gun for a certain price. I dont know about spyder, or smartparts, but i am pretty sure that i read somewhere that tippmann making dealers sign contracts to sell the gun for a certain price, so no matter how popluar the guns are, and how few there are you have to sell them for a certain price. I belive this is why that on most paintball sights the tippmann markers have "too low to show" as the price and then you then add it to the cart so you can see the price. I think this is really good for the sport, it keeps the proshops from selling the guns to someone who has no idea what he is buying, and him paying well upwards of what the gun is really worth in the market.

you've got to be kidding me...you honestly think that online retailers are better for the growth of the sport than physical walk in shops? That plus that crap in your sig shows the absolutely tiny amount of knowledge you have of the sport.

[southern_pber]

you've got to be kidding me...you honestly think that online retailers are better for the growth of the sport than physical walk in shops? That plus that crap in your sig shows the absolutely tiny amount of knowledge you have of the sport.

I never said that they were better for the sport. They do keep alot of the more shady profit driven proshops (they for the most part aren't even proshops but a pawnshop that sells equipment) in check. I a few months ago went into a pawnshop , for the purpose of buying rounds for my 30-30 rifle, as i was looking for the rounds i came across a small paintball section that contained a few guns. I started looking through the guns that they had, for the most part they were used, and not carring about the prices at the time i didnt look at them, but then i saw a Pilot. This interested me and looked at the price. when i did i was shocked to see that it was $300 (which is just a little less than 3x's the retail price on the net or anywhere else). Now i didnt say anything to the woman and the counter because i had reason to belive that she was just hired help (she couldnt help me find my shells), but had a man been there i would have had a talk about him jacking the price so stepply of a gun. My dad was even shocked and he made me leave without buying anything.



Now had i walked into that store and known nothing about the sport of paintball, i woudnt have any idea how much that gun would really be worth. I was simply saying that online stores help keep things competive by letting the public know what guns go for on the street, because the sites have to stay competive when dealing with widely available items. It lets the average joe who doesnt want to much reseach about the sport google the gun, or even find it on ebay to see what they usally go for. I do frequent my local proshop becase they really are competive when it comes to most things, and i always get a paint there. So really, dont call me an idot for wanting to keep things midly competive. I dont care to pay mabe $10 more than on the net to help my proshop, and i do pay more for paint than i would on the net.

You sound like the type that loves to run noobies off a field because you have such a divine authority, so by all means keep dissing me, and keep making your self look like a horses arse.

[Zedthephish]

I never said that they were better for the sport. They do keep alot of the more shady profit driven proshops (they for the most part aren't even proshops but a pawnshop that sells equipment) in check. I a few months ago went into a pawnshop , for the purpose of buying rounds for my 30-30 rifle, as i was looking for the rounds i came across a small paintball section that contained a few guns. I started looking through the guns that they had, for the most part they were used, and not carring about the prices at the time i didnt look at them, but then i saw a Pilot. This interested me and looked at the price. when i did i was shocked to see that it was $300 (which is just a little less than 3x's the retail price on the net or anywhere else).
It's a pawn shop, do you think they know, or care, about how much money the Pilot costs normally? The answer is no, they don't. This is also not a good example of a pro-shop, or another facility that would care about being fair to the customer (pawnshops are an anomaly, anyway)

Now i didnt say anything to the woman and the counter because i had reason to belive that she was just hired help (she couldnt help me find my shells), but had a man been there i would have had a talk about him jacking the price so stepply of a gun.
Sexism? It looks that way

My dad was even shocked and he made me leave without buying anything.



Now had i walked into that store and known nothing about the sport of paintball, i woudnt have any idea how much that gun would really be worth. I was simply saying that online stores help keep things competive by letting the public know what guns go for on the street, because the sites have to stay competive when dealing with widely available items.
It wouldn't have mattered. As you go on to say in a few sentances, Pro-shops usually are as competitive as they can be.

It lets the average joe who doesnt want to much reseach about the sport google the gun, or even find it on ebay to see what they usally go for.
If he doesn't want to do research, he's not going to google a maker anyway.

I do frequent my local proshop becase they really are competive when it comes to most things, and i always get a paint there.
See, this is where you start to deviate from the point.

So really, dont call me an idot for wanting to keep things midly competive. I dont care to pay mabe $10 more than on the net to help my proshop, and i do pay more for paint than i would on the net.

You sound like the type that loves to run noobies off a field because you have such a divine authority, so by all means keep dissing me, and keep making your self look like a horses arse.
iplaynaked may be a dick, but it is you who is in the wrong here.

[m98sniper15]

Thanks guys for all your input on this subject. I really think paintball is the greatest sport ever. I just wish it could be an oylimpic sport.

[southern_pber]

It doesnt look like everyone here understands that there arent proshops everwhere.

[VandalSeal]

It doesnt look like everyone here understands that there arent proshops everwhere.

sounds like a personal problem...

[m98sniper15]

Well I don't have a proshop.The nearest is 45 mi

[southern_pber]

sounds like a personal problem...

My point exactly, its a personal problem, but its a personal problem thousands of paintball players have. Do you know how long it would take me to drive to what you would consider a real "pro shop" , not just a place that sells guns , but a place that servaces guns and sells replacement parts? It would take me about 2 hours, it takes me an hour just to get to a place that fills HPA. Now im pretty sure im not alone in my isolation.

[m98sniper15]

How often do you go fill HPA? Thats quite a drive.

[Jckdarippr]

The proshop I buy most my stuff from I definitely overpriced, but I support the local paintball store because on top of the costs of inventory, they also have to pay rent/lease for the store. Online stores are cheaper to run since it can be as simple as running a business out of your home. I'll pay the extra for my proshop because I want to develop a customer-owner relationship and since I bought a gun from that store, I have a lifetime warranty (he'll fix my gun for free) so I definitely want that store to stay around for...a lifetime. By overpriced I meant no more than 10% more than internet value, but 300 for a spyder pilot is...outrageous.

[southern_pber]

How often do you go fill HPA? Thats quite a drive.

I have never had to fill a HPA tank, but i was planing on buying one not to long ago. While i was reseaching the tank i wanted to buy i thought that i better seach around for some place that would fill it. After a while of reseaching i found that there is no place within an hour of my house that fills them. I didnt acutally buy the tank because i realized that it would acutally cost me more for the gas to the store, than i would save on CO2.

[m98sniper15]

Thanks guys for all your posts and opinions. Southern it would cost me $20 just on gas in my car to buy HPA. Its just not worth it.

[southern_pber]

Thanks guys for all your posts and opinions. Southern it would cost me $20 just on gas in my car to buy HPA. Its just not worth it.


Yeah it happens man, i thought i might have some plcae that would fill them really close to my house but then the owner went back on himself and said that not enought people would buy tanks so he oculd fill them.