Are We getting Ripped off?

[tviz]

It seams like theres alot of stuff that could come stock but dosent on guns and other paintball things, stuff that wouldent realy cost them any more to put on.....so you have to replace it and get hosed on a aftermarket thing..... I could expand this with examples but then people would probably pick apart the individual examples rather then the whole.:pissed:

[Crede777]

You get what you pay for.

[iridespyder]

Whaaa..?

[EEric22]

If you don't like the prices don't play paintball. Most higher quality guns come with quality parts built in. Also, you're sig is absolutly stupid.

[iridespyder]

Also, you're sig is absolutly stupid.
Agreed.

[kjpmkjp]

Agreed x2

Oh noes, not guns with parts that can be upgraded. For alot of people, half the fun can be upgrading the gun. As Eric and Crede said, you pay more, you get a higher quality gun that won't need to have parts replaced, or upgraded. Pay less, you get something that will still work fine, but has the ability to be upgraded to increase its _______ (Fill in the blank).

[tviz]

Ya, i know paintball is an expensive sport, and i know upgradeing is fun, i know you get what you pay for, but take boards for example, why dose one cap at 15 and another at 30, its irrelivent if you can actualy shoot that fast, if its an adjustable board it should go as fast as your solnoid can click, i dont see how raizeing the cap could cost the company more then a few cents, while it cost us $150 to replace the board.

Then look at loaders, stock board spins roulette wheal so fast, upgraded one spins it X amount faster, IF THE MOTOR CAN SPIN X AMOUNT FASTER WHY DOSNT THE STOCK ONE DO THAT! It sounds like a rather good business plan to me but i dont want to pay for it.....

[iridespyder]

It sounds like a rather good business plan to me but i dont want to pay for it.....
That's Paintball for ya.

[Whitetrash_85]

Actually most highend guns are great out of the box. It's not that companys are selling you $1000 + guns that HAVE to be upgraded to compete. people just upgraded them becuase the upgrades are available and like previously stated it's fun to be able to custimize your gun

-whitetrash

[The_beast]

I am going to have to strongly disagree with the "You get what you pay for" statement. I was recently in the market for an on/off and rail combo. The cheapest set I could find that was of a decent quality was 59.99 canadian. my search topped out at around 100 bucks. Wow, if that isn't getting ripped off I don't know what is. I could purchase an entire gun for that much with an ASA attatched, there is no justification in material, manufacturing, overhead, etc. to charge me that much for that little.

Shall we look at pants? Once again, the cheapest I could find was 110 bucks, with the search topping out at a whopping 200! What a jip!

I don't understand how everyone became so cool with getting hosed lol.

[gsu_paintballer]

As far as shooting 15 or 30 bps.....why do you need more than 15? Ill never understand the endless search for 30 bps out of a gun

Halo...Empire....Egg....all will feed a 15 bps shooter. The egg ,ight slow you down slightly but not too bad.

So you dont HAVE to upgrade. It comes ready to go.

Have a nice day :D

[SHBASS]

I am going to have to strongly disagree with the "You get what you pay for" statement. I was recently in the market for an on/off and rail combo. The cheapest set I could find that was of a decent quality was 59.99 canadian. my search topped out at around 100 bucks. Wow, if that isn't getting ripped off I don't know what is. I could purchase an entire gun for that much with an ASA attatched, there is no justification in material, manufacturing, overhead, etc. to charge me that much for that little.

Shall we look at pants? Once again, the cheapest I could find was 110 bucks, with the search topping out at a whopping 200! What a jip!

I don't understand how everyone became so cool with getting hosed lol.


Part of the reason is that paintball is still relatively small. They make up for not selling as many products to the small paintball industry by raising the price. Really, a lot of the rails I see would probably go for about $20-$30 instead of $50-$60 if the sport were as big as, say, skateboarding. You also have to see how much competition the companies have. Same goes for pants. I think if paintball were bigger, my $80 pants would have cost $50 and the manufacturer could have still made good money. Just my opinion.

[nerdcore]

SHBASS is right. Smaller companies = higher prices. They don't have the resources & sheer manpower to achieve high production sales at low production costs. Most paintball companies don't have massive factories pumping out products on huge assembly lines.

[samurai2828]

I am going to have to strongly disagree with the "You get what you pay for" statement. I was recently in the market for an on/off and rail combo. The cheapest set I could find that was of a decent quality was 59.99 canadian. my search topped out at around 100 bucks. Wow, if that isn't getting ripped off I don't know what is. I could purchase an entire gun for that much with an ASA attatched, there is no justification in material, manufacturing, overhead, etc. to charge me that much for that little.

Shall we look at pants? Once again, the cheapest I could find was 110 bucks, with the search topping out at a whopping 200! What a jip!

I don't understand how everyone became so cool with getting hosed lol.


I agree completely. One thing I notice a lot is the mark up of pricing as soon as it is "Canadian Listed". This goes for field paint as well imo, you play in the U.S. and price for paint, quality paint ranges from $45 - $70 US. Where as in Canada, price for white box paint ranges from $65- $80 US. Premium paint goes anywhere from $110 - $125 US. To me, as a Canadian, and a paintballer in general, this is a complete rip off.

[nerdcore]

Doesn't everything cost more in Canada?

[SHBASS]

You also have to realize that most paintball-making companies are based in the united states, (except maybe procaps) so there's shipping costs involved more-so than in the US due to shipping out of the country. Don't like it, move to the good ol US of A! j/k. There is, once again, a smaller consumer base in Canada.

[fritzman]

hell yes we are the compny keep scuing us because we hav fat wallets

[SHBASS]

Please use better articulation in your posts so that they make sense and don't sound dumb. Thank you

[EEric22]

Please use better articulation in your posts so that they make sense and don't sound dumb. Thank you

Ya rly.

And "the_beast", Canadian dollar prices are always higher then those in USD.

[aperson]

boards have lower caps the what is "possible" for the gun because if the gun is shooting too fast you will start to get shootdown with lower quality guns. The companies dont want this to happen because it makes their product not look as good, so they dont let you push the performance far enough to notice problems

[Tweeter]

CAD/US exchange doesn't justify the price difference and IMO, neither does shipping. The current exchange rate is ~1.17 CAD for a US dollar. Add on shipping and a 1100US marker should go for ~1350. yeah right. We pay almost 1450 for the same product, and the suppliers get fancy discounts because of higher volumes etc. Let's be generous here. Say before store markup the thing costs 1000 even. We'll assume they don't have any deals with shipping companies (the bigger online stores do) so shipping costs stay the same. I called it 70$. So then it costs them 1240 to bring it in. They charge a higher markup in canada. When dealing with procaps, we should be paying US prices with CAD 20's but we don't. The only conclusion I could come to through this half-assed math is that paintball hates Canada. Yes, everythign costs more in canada, but it costs more than it should.

[kjpmkjp]

I don't know if this was addressed allready, but when you pay alot to upgrade your board you don't just get a higher cap, you get numerous other types of modes and things to change on the board.

[Tweeter]

I think he's making the point that manufactures screw you over by putin a cap on the board in the first place. I agree with that, but you get screwed every time you buy something, so you kind of have to deal with it. That or make your own products...

[The_beast]

Ya rly.

And "the_beast", Canadian dollar prices are always higher then those in USD.

What? They are? Well that makes those prices completely justifiable.

Come on, I clearly know that and they are still a rip off. The only reason I listed in canadian prices is because I was too lazy to find the USD amounts, not to mention that canucks are getting jipped worse, because the difference in price is hardly reflective of the exchange rates for the most part, and before you say anything, not everything is like that. Canadians get their videogames cheaper if you look at the dollar for the most part.

To shbass, small companies or not, it is still a ripoff. Realistically, 20 or 30 bucks for a rail itself is still a laughably large amount for such a miniscule piece of aluminum. Like, if pants dropping to 50 bucks USD and rails dropping to 30 bucks USD is what I have to look foreward to than god help me. Regarding your comment on paintball companies having alot of competition I would have to disagree too. They don't have much now and realistically had none in the past. Not to mention that competition would drive prices down, not up. I mean, look at the halo for example.

Further more paintball isn't that small. statistically more popular and "bigger" than snowboarding.

[nerdcore]

Isn't there some kind of tariff on products shipped to Canada? So not only is the price higher because of the exchange rate, Canadians are paying the tariff that the paintball stores in Canada have to deal with when ordering their stock from the USA. Maybe that's where the markup is coming from.

The paintball consumer market is still relatively small. It may be "bigger" than snowboarding but not bigger than other, more established sports, like football (both kinds), baseball, basketball, etc. And how many paintball companies actually exist? The number is getting smaller! K2 is pretty big, KEE is now a big one (thanks to NPS & PMI merging), so what else is left? SP & Dye, regardless of their popularity among ballers, aren't massive conglomerates; all the other companies are still relatively tiny compared to companies in other industries.

[tviz]

boards have lower caps the what is "possible" for the gun because if the gun is shooting too fast you will start to get shootdown with lower quality guns. The companies dont want this to happen because it makes their product not look as good, so they dont let you push the performance far enough to notice problems

Thats the case some of the time im sure but why cap it in the first place, let the gun shoot as fast as its internals will go, If you get down shoot turn down the cap yourself no need in haveing a cap on your cap.....

I am going to have to strongly disagree with the "You get what you pay for" statement. I was recently in the market for an on/off and rail combo. The cheapest set I could find that was of a decent quality was 59.99 canadian. my search topped out at around 100 bucks. Wow, if that isn't getting ripped off I don't know what is. I could purchase an entire gun for that much with an ASA attatched, there is no justification in material, manufacturing, overhead, etc. to charge me that much for that little.

Shall we look at pants? Once again, the cheapest I could find was 110 bucks, with the search topping out at a whopping 200! What a jip!

I don't understand how everyone became so cool with getting hosed lol.

Dude, i cant agree more....especily with that last line,,,,but i guess if we need something we are going to buy it wheather we get hosed or not.....

I think he's making the point that manufactures screw you over by putin a cap on the board in the first place. I agree with that, but you get screwed every time you buy something, so you kind of have to deal with it. That or make your own products...

Thanks for the clairification of what i said :) and ya, you get hosed on everything, its like ok my gun dosnt come with an on/off ASA so i gota go out and get hosed.....Well i guess with lower end things you cant expect it to have everything but thers still no justification of a drop forward on/off ASA costing up to $100.....

[The_beast]

Isn't there some kind of tariff on products shipped to Canada? So not only is the price higher because of the exchange rate, Canadians are paying the tariff that the paintball stores in Canada have to deal with when ordering their stock from the USA. Maybe that's where the markup is coming from.I doubt it, considering the whole NAFTA thing and all.

The paintball consumer market is still relatively small. It may be "bigger" than snowboarding but not bigger than other, more established sports, like football (both kinds), baseball, basketball, etc. And how many paintball companies actually exist? The number is getting smaller! K2 is pretty big, KEE is now a big one (thanks to NPS & PMI merging), so what else is left? SP & Dye, regardless of their popularity among ballers, aren't massive conglomerates; all the other companies are still relatively tiny compared to companies in other industries.So? Many industries are tiny in relation to others. It doesn't mean I should be coughing up custom dough for mass produced product.

[SHBASS]

What? They are? Well that makes those prices completely justifiable.



To shbass, small companies or not, it is still a ripoff. Realistically, 20 or 30 bucks for a rail itself is still a laughably large amount for such a miniscule piece of aluminum. Like, if pants dropping to 50 bucks USD and rails dropping to 30 bucks USD is what I have to look foreward to than god help me. Regarding your comment on paintball companies having alot of competition I would have to disagree too. They don't have much now and realistically had none in the past. Not to mention that competition would drive prices down, not up. I mean, look at the halo for example.

Further more paintball isn't that small. statistically more popular and "bigger" than snowboarding.

I'll revoke my statement about competition after thinking about it. You're right. But high prices are literally what keep paintball companies in business. If a single company made every single piece of equipment in paintball, then we might see it get cheaper. Either that or we get a lot more players. It sucks, and I guess God should help you, because it's a catch-22. There aren' that many players (relatively) because the prices are high, and the prices are high because there's not enough players. Paintball really isn't even comparable to snowboarding due to lack of places to snowboard and the time frame is a lot smaller for snowboarding.

[tviz]

ya, more players would drive prices down, but people dont play because of the price. One can hope that eventualy technology and compotition between the few companies there are will drive prices down to the point more people play, and companies can expand and give more of a mass produded price.

[samurai2828]

You also have to realize that most paintball-making companies are based in the united states, (except maybe procaps) so there's shipping costs involved more-so than in the US due to shipping out of the country. Don't like it, move to the good ol US of A! j/k. There is, once again, a smaller consumer base in Canada

Smaller consumer base has nothing to do with a companies wholesale costs. For example, I mentioned the paintballs costs here in Canada vs the US. I can get a case of premium paint for $35 at wholesale, and this is only a quick reference, Im sure you could find a better deal. Anyway, companies here in canada, or field owners are marking up their product by 400% and more sometimes. I've done the math, and they could potentially make hundreds of thousands of dollars during a "big game". This easily covers expenses, especially if they own the land already, which a lot do. This high cost in Canada imo is due to the fact that companies and fields are taking advantage of the lack of variety in this country. A monopoly in a way. They control the paintball industry and therefore do what they want with the pricing.

Now dont get me wrong, because there are fields out there in Ontario, just for example that offer reasonable pricing. Arenaline Paintball in southern Ontario offers paint at $80 CAD which is awesome! Where I play, its $90 for premium which is good as well, better then $140 CAD!


Doesn't everything cost more in Canada?

Generally its quite 50/50. Like anywhere else, there are things that come in to play that effect costs here vs the US. But I will say that from experience, our retail costs are much more expensive then the US. But the wholesale prices for the retailers is the same, or equel.

[L BLOODY]

Personally I think if you buy a Spyder you're getting way more than what you pay for.

[Crede777]

It's not correct to say that paintball companies "hose" people on the prices for a number of reasons.

First, you don't HAVE to wear tourney pants when you play paintball. You can play in jeans...

Second, paint is expensive because it is very hard to ship. It is fragile, it spoils, and is very sensitive to temperature. Fields purchase their paint in bulk according to how much they believe they will sell that week.

Third, paintball products are not cheap to design or create.

Fourth, companies differ in both price and quality. I hear a lot of people complaining about how they paid $150 for a pair of paintball pants which ripped. It's all about consumer information. Purchase attire from a company which has a reputation for durability. Granted there always will be a lemon, but still some companies are more reliable than others.

I can't comment on the prices in Canada, as I have little experience with purchasing goods in Canada.

[SHBASS]

I'm gonna stop too, because I don't live there, and I really don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll stop while I'm not even ahead. But I still believe that for those companies to stay in business, they have to charge more.

[kjpmkjp]

I don't see the crazy price jack really. Here, let me try a simple random gun check. AV vs CP. Lets see how it adds up:

I'll do a popular and an easily accessable marker, the Ion:

AV Price (US Dollars): $199.95 ("On Sale" from $249.99)

Canadian Paintball Price (Canadian Dollars): $249.99 Reg price

Both will get free shipping within their own country, and tax varies per province/state, so I will leave that out completely.

199.95 x 1.17 = 235.65 (light rounding done)

So, the difference is about $15 bucks Canadian. I don't see much of the rip off, considering all goods coming from the States are subject to the tariff. Seems about fair to me.

[tviz]

Well i dont live in canada so i dont know, it could be terrifs, possibly just more hosers in canada, but i dont think the manufactuers would sell them for a higher price after shipping, terrifs, and exchange rate just because its canada.......Unless people in canada have more money but i dont think its the case, if after exchange rates, terrifs, shipping canadians still pay more its probably the store owners are just hosers.

[The_beast]

It's not correct to say that paintball companies "hose" people on the prices for a number of reasons.

First, you don't HAVE to wear tourney pants when you play paintball. You can play in jeans...

Second, paint is expensive because it is very hard to ship. It is fragile, it spoils, and is very sensitive to temperature. Fields purchase their paint in bulk according to how much they believe they will sell that week.

Third, paintball products are not cheap to design or create.

Fourth, companies differ in both price and quality. I hear a lot of people complaining about how they paid $150 for a pair of paintball pants which ripped. It's all about consumer information. Purchase attire from a company which has a reputation for durability. Granted there always will be a lemon, but still some companies are more reliable than others.

I can't comment on the prices in Canada, as I have little experience with purchasing goods in Canada.

Don't worry about commenting on the prices in canada, for the sake of argument, we shall say that the canadian prices completely reflect the exchange rate in every way.

[tviz]

so ya, canada aside, things still cost too much. However I have realized that dirt bikeing pants and jersys are extreamly similer to paintball ones, but i dont know if they are cheaper since my parents buy me my dirt bikeing stuff. ( I buy my own paintball stuff because my dad dosnt play paintball :mad: ) But then again i think the main thing we get hosed on is capped boards and little pieces of alluminum that cost $30 for like some little thing like a trigger....

[Zedthephish]

If you think it could be made for less money, make it yourself.

[iplaynaked]

so ya, canada aside, things still cost too much. However I have realized that dirt bikeing pants and jersys are extreamly similer to paintball ones, but i dont know if they are cheaper since my parents buy me my dirt bikeing stuff. ( I buy my own paintball stuff because my dad dosnt play paintball :mad: ) But then again i think the main thing we get hosed on is capped boards and little pieces of alluminum that cost $30 for like some little thing like a trigger....
once its said and done there really isnt much of a profit margin on things like triggers, feednecks, asa's etc. you have to buy the aluminum, buy and maintain the CnC machine, pay the people to work the machine, annodize it, package it, and ship it. paintball manufacturers arent as wealthy as most people think.

[Tweeters]

if companies are hosing every customer down and hosing them down as bad as you say they are....then i should be seeing player golf cart transportation at every NPPL, XPSL, PSP, and CFOA event. but i dont, and i still walk, and my feet still hurt.

where are the pro salaries from all this hosing down? where are my professionally trained refs for national and regional events? where is all this money these pb companies make from hosing us down going?

i'll tell you where its going. its funding voldemort's wizard war.

PAINTBALL SUPPORTS MUGGLEMURDER.

[tviz]

welll....it could be all going up to some fat cat in the top, but i see your point.

[Team Chokepoint]

If there are fat cats at the top, they aren't doing so hot. Just look at all the recent mergers and acquisitions, which were largely due to involved companies coming close to bankruptcy.

Paintball is as susceptible to the laws of economics as everyone else - you pay what market conditions dictate you must pay, and no collective conscious of the paintball industry is trying to hose you.

[Accident]

ok, time for my 2 cents.

a few reasons hard gear is so expensive.
1. they know we need that particular product.
2. insurance
3. in some cases, a higher price can actually help sales. when you see two markers. same OS, same company etc. but one is a bit more expensive. wouldn't you automaticaly think the more expensive one is a bit better? ( am not saying that this is always true, its just an example.)
*cough* matrix series *cough* *cough*

and the line between customizing your gun and upgrading it is a blurry line.
its all preference.

and, one more thing, in the case of high end markers. companies are forced to raise the prices on their markers because they have to pay smart parts for each one.


p.s. emo is dead. stop kicking the corpse.

[w3tw1lly]

CAD/US exchange doesn't justify the price difference and IMO, neither does shipping. The current exchange rate is ~1.17 CAD for a US dollar. Add on shipping and a 1100US marker should go for ~1350. yeah right. We pay almost 1450 for the same product, and the suppliers get fancy discounts because of higher volumes etc. Let's be generous here. Say before store markup the thing costs 1000 even. We'll assume they don't have any deals with shipping companies (the bigger online stores do) so shipping costs stay the same. I called it 70$. So then it costs them 1240 to bring it in. They charge a higher markup in canada. When dealing with procaps, we should be paying US prices with CAD 20's but we don't. The only conclusion I could come to through this half-assed math is that paintball hates Canada. Yes, everythign costs more in canada, but it costs more than it should.
I think it's just the way companies are in Canada. Take Xbox 360 for example. A $399 USD product is $499 CDN. That's not right. It should be $459. It's just the way it goes I guess. I also have to agree with people though on little piss-ant parts that shouldn't cost that much to make.

[w3tw1lly]

once its said and done there really isnt much of a profit margin on things like triggers, feednecks, asa's etc. you have to buy the aluminum, buy and maintain the CnC machine, pay the people to work the machine, annodize it, package it, and ship it. paintball manufacturers arent as wealthy as most people think.
Yes but CnC machines can do so many things. It's not like they make one part and one part only. And trust me, CnC'ers get payed crap. Not to mention they buy the all the materials for really cheap. Same with packaging and shipping.

[tviz]

Well i guess there is always the possibility of the broad spectrum of paintball parts out there. Ok, you go into a PB store and want a barrel, they could have 100 different models but not the one you want, theres different bore sizes, different lengths, different threads, and different lines. There are also different manufacuers but lets not count that since its the manufacuers we are talking about, it will make sence when you read the below paragraph.

Now time to crunch the numbers, lets say we have 5 major bore sizes, 4 lengths, 5 threads, and 5 lines. DING, 500 DIFFERENT BARRELS the manufacuer has to make. IF they are stamping out one barrel and only one they can probably turn em out realy fast and turn a big profit, but 500, thats rediculous, they stamp out a couple then have to reconfigure the machine to do another type. IT would explain mergers in order have more business so you can have one CnC mahine doing one thing and one thing only. Another thing that they are probably makeing (spreading themselvs out more) triggers, frames, and other parts so its probably very hard to mass produde one specific item. Like a trigger, it would cost them almost NOTHING to make if thats all they were doing, trigger after trigger, all the same.

So then we go to the store, who also has all these different manufacuers with 500 barrels each so add in 10 manufacters hes gotta carry 5,000 barrels, and then 4 coulers( i dont think the CnC dose this since its anoing), 20,000 barrels! + other things. This makes things hard for a small business without unlimited funds.

They either hose or make nothing, thats my guess.

[Tweeters]

i didn't know you could fit so much ignorance about manufacturing and business in 3...4 posts.

[Omniscient]

this may have been mentioned.

New timmies do not come with an ASA or macro IIRC.
$1000 for a marker and then you gotta spend $40 more? C'mon Bob, don't be greedy.

[Team Chokepoint]

i didn't know you could fit so much ignorance about manufacturing and business in 3...4 posts.

Best post in this thread so far, and that is sad.

[Tweeters]

4UCK you tweeters, you can flame or have an educated conversation, i learned much from this thread so far and dont need you telling me this you have never heard so much blah about business ****.

you should learn from the right sources, like school, or a business man, or someone who works for a company that manufactures. you know, people who know what they're talking about.

and you better learn it before you start accusing people of hosing you down, ignorant accusations are one of the worst, and you wont be getting a tear from me if you get flamed for it.

[Tweeter]

Personally, my proshop carries very little selection, and realistically, I don't expect them to have much to look through for my particular equipment. You can't expect any small shop to carry 1000's of barrels and another million dollars in other parts. I leave that to warehouses. I've never seen a proshop that holds much more than 50 thousand in inventory, and those are considered huge for the community here. The neat thing about suppliers is that you don't have to have everything in stock. You order online, you usually order from 3+ warehouses.

[mjr_paranoid]

Part of the equation that is missing here is that many PB companies are run by morons who know nothing about business.

Sure they might have a clue on how to play paintball, or about engineering, but not about marketing or distribution.

Odyssey is a prime example of a company that just ate itself from stupidity.

So they get hosed and hover at the edge of bankrupcy because they don't have the real tools needed to make a business sucessful.

For a contrast look at smart parts.

They know how to market.Go to thier web site. Simple and clean with bold imagery.

Evreyone says the Ion stinks.

BUT YOU SEE THEM EVERYWHERE.

Nuff said.

[^_^]

this may have been mentioned.

New timmies do not come with an ASA or macro IIRC.
$1000 for a marker and then you gotta spend $40 more? C'mon Bob, don't be greedy.
So there $250 to $400 cheaper than some high ends. Egos are $1,250 and DM7s are $1,400. So really having to pay an extra $40 isn't all that bad.

[Tweeters]

its not like the money goes to bob long. he can't force u to buy a bobl ong ASA for your bob long gun.