A Conflict of Intrest?

[MecTurtleCocker]

First, an overview of parent companies.

K2 owns a few paintball companies which I will mention in here, including Viewloader and WGP.

NPS owns Odyssey, which distributed Dragun-made markers.


Now, an overview of competition.

Odyssey, which is the distribution brand for the Halo series of hoppers is in direct competition with Viewloader, who produces the VLocity, a comperable competitor for the Halo.

Dragun produced a marker known as the "Dragunfly" This marker was an Autococking closed bolt marker, or better known as an Autococker. WGP owns some patents on autococking markers, despite the fact that Glenn Palmer, of Palmer's Pursuit Shop, and formerly of Action Markers, LLC, is the originator of this technology applied in paintball.

WGP and K2 issued a lawsuit against Dragun International, claiming that they infringed on the autococking semi patent.

Not only would this, in theory, boost the sales of WGP products, whose sales could be potentially lost to Dragun Internation, but it would also damage the capital that was in the company, hindering the production of Halo loaders, which compete directly against Viewloader.

What are your thoughts on this? A well thought out lawsuit, or a conflict of intrest?

[di$TOrTed]

I just wish companies would stop bringing each other to court. Everyone hates SP for it, the Pulse isn't easy to get anymore, and now this stuff. I don't even bother with keeping track of it anymore.

[MecTurtleCocker]

This is mostly older news, 2003-2004, but I agree entirely.

[soccerjacks12]

K2 Armadas are great skis.
The competition between companies is good for us consumers, so any elimination of competition is bad.

[MecTurtleCocker]

No doubt K2 makes great stuff...but that is extremely irrelevant.

[^_^]

I just wish companies would stop bringing each other to court. Everyone hates SP for it, the Pulse isn't easy to get anymore, and now this stuff. I don't even bother with keeping track of it anymore.
I'm still bitter at Smart Parts over that. I think there nazis..

[Oni Gumo]

I'm still bitter at Smart Parts over that. I think there nazis..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Seriously...they're a capitalistic business, not Nazis.

[L BLOODY]

Got a link to this story with all the details? If so I bet you I can predict the outcome based on the merits.

[TiPpYsGaLoRe]

NPS is obviously more concerned about the Pulse.

[L BLOODY]

Vlocity is Uhgli.

I don't think it competes with Halo any more than evo 3 does...IMHO.

Also, RE hating Smart Parts: Didn't SP pretty much pioneer the ep marker?
I think SP is great with great products for great prices, personally.

[Crede777]

Regardless of the politics involved therein, I honestly can't see K2 making a cash cow out of WGP with the way it's going.

WGP obviously sticks to their "tried and true" autococker technology, but it seems that cockers just aren't selling well. This could be attributed to my paintball atmosphere (mostly upper tier tournament scene), but I see more Ions than anything else in the sub $500 price range.

Cockers in the upper levels are nearly nonexistant save for the Millenium events and X-factor.

Also, K2 has reported that their paintball division has posted record losses for the company.

I'd love to see WGP turn around as a company. Viewloader, on the other hand, is doing just dandy if you ask me. Same goes for JT. Brass Eagle is another story.

[MecTurtleCocker]

Got a link to this story with all the details? If so I bet you I can predict the outcome based on the merits.


As far as I know, this article you see right here, written by your's truly, is the only one that examines this rather clear concept.

[CapnCrunch]

Vlocity is Uhgli.

I don't think it competes with Halo any more than evo 3 does...IMHO.

Also, RE hating Smart Parts: Didn't SP pretty much pioneer the ep marker?
I think SP is great with great products for great prices, personally.
Pulse/Vlocity/Halo are all in competition. And in reality a Vlocity is probably better than a Halo. They're lighter, more reliable, have settings for battery life/speed, feed just as fast as a halo, and are easier to take apart.

[L BLOODY]

^ I just got one out of a deal. Don't like it.

Halo is solid state. Vlocity is the archetype of plasticity.

Don't get me wrong. It took a whole minute for me to assess the halo vs the evo3, but Halo ( I use V35) has the seal of approval, plus the magnetic lid is a bazillion times nicer.

Vlocity looks like a disabled toilet, and makes a noise like an ambulance when it's hurting for paint. Not what I want when I'm trying to be low-key, ca-va?

[L BLOODY]

The Vlocity would come in handy if I needed to pinch one and had a horde of muj in front of me as well...

[Lopez17]

Also, RE hating Smart Parts: Didn't SP pretty much pioneer the ep marker?


No, that's a common misconception and one that they'd like you to think. If you read the judge's decision in the WDP lawsuit from a few years ago, there were several paragraphs in which the judge called into doubt the Gardner brothers assertion that they "invented" or contributed to "inventing" the EP marker. He granted half the patent to another man who actually did the legwork on it and had it documented. The Gardner brothers, in a deposition, basically said that they remember discussing EP in paintball markers in the early 90's....and evolved things from there. The judge all but called them liars in his ruling.

[L BLOODY]

Interesting stuff.

i found this without much ado:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050309063557/http://www.icedillusions.com/Anti-SP.html

[Lopez17]

I don't see how it's a Conflict of Interest. Conflicts of interest are when you have dual loyalties between competing activities/companies (not dual outcomes). In this case there's no such thing. For example a classic Conflict of Interest would be if I'm an employee of company A and my wife is responsible for sourcing contracts with Company B. We're trying to earn Company B's business. Because my wife is strategically placed for these awards there's a reasonable thought that the selection of a company could be based on the spousal relationship between employees in the two companies. That's a conflict of interest. (Or a judge who is presiding over a case in which he has a relationship with the plantiff or defendant. etc.)

In this case.... K2, WGP and Viewloader are one entity. We'll call them Company XYZ. If I understand correctly Odyssey and Dragun are owned by NPS/KEE at the moment. We'll call them company 123. In this case a marker lawsuit is going to allege Company 123 is infringing on Company XYZ's patents. Company XYZ stands to make money by getting 123 to settle or by winning a judgement. If Company 123 loses and goes bankrupt and has to sell off their loaders or quits making them then Company XYZ will gain market share...but that's a subsequent consequence (and an unlikely one) to the initial action. While it's probably savvy legal maneuvering and has implications beyond the initial suit by the plantiff, it's not likely going to achieve a result of diminishing Halo sales in the long run.

[L BLOODY]

Pulse/Vlocity/Halo are all in competition. And in reality a Vlocity is probably better than a Halo. They're lighter, more reliable, have settings for battery life/speed, feed just as fast as a halo, and are easier to take apart.By that logic I could argue that a Kia Spectra is better than a VW golf...

I don't see how it's a Conflict of Interest.Me neither. I really don't see the relevance of the term here... Obviously any plaintiff and respondent in such a suit would have conflicting interests.

[CapnCrunch]

By that logic I could argue that a Kia Spectra is better than a VW golf...

Me neither. I really don't see the relevance of the term here... Obviously any plaintiff and respondent in such a suit would have conflicting interests.
Wow dude, you're an idiot.

So Halo's are better because they look better? I agree that they look better but thats the only thing a Halo has over a Vlocity. Seriously, go out and play some paintball.

[^_^]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

Seriously...they're a capitalistic business, not Nazis.
Lol wow:P

[iliveforthis99]

I could really care less. WGP makes nothing that's wowing the paintball world anymore. Only good things VL really makes is the egg2/3 and yeah i guess Vlocity. JT does make nice masks but that's about it. BE well you know. Odyssey ok but their biggest thing they make is the halo b which i'm not a big fan of. I'm a reloader b and pulse guy personally.

[Oni Gumo]

I could really care less. WGP makes nothing that's wowing the paintball world anymore. Only good things VL really makes is the egg2/3 and yeah i guess Vlocity. JT does make nice masks but that's about it. BE well you know. Odyssey ok but their biggest thing they make is the halo b which i'm not a big fan of. I'm a reloader b and pulse guy personally.

:rolleyes:

If you like a Reloader, then you like a Halo. All the thing is is a modified Halo, yeesh.

[iliveforthis99]

Yeah i know but i like the options that are stock on the reloader b better. Plus it works fine w/ dark shelled paintball.

[L BLOODY]

Wow dude, your an idiot.

Wow THANKS!!

I'm an idiot (but there's nothing wrong with you)

So Halo's are better because they look better? I agree that they look better but thats the only thing a Halo has over a Vlocity. How about a magnetic lid and umpteen optional shell styles? How about more substantial materials? How about a history and reputation of consistent performance? Frankly I think the egg hopper LOOKS better. Halos are better because they are higher quality. That's where I drew the Kia/VW analogy from.

I will be playing ball tomorrow. You have fun with your wal-mart hopper!

[CapnCrunch]

Haha, you just called a Halo high quality.

[L BLOODY]

I could really care less. how much less?

WGP makes nothing that's wowing the paintball world anymore. Their name has been cheapened by sitting alongside bubble wrapped markers in superstores.
JT does make nice masks but that's about it.Not that nice. Mostly walmart crap if you ask me.

halo b, reloader b and pulse.None of these are sold at walmart or academy. Thankfully.

[L BLOODY]

Haha, you just called a Halo high quality.HAHA

ROTFL!!!

[Oni Gumo]

HAHA

ROTFL!!!

Quit.
Posting.

[Crede777]

This is getting off topic. If you want to argue the specs of the Vlocity vs. the HaloB, do so in the hopper forum.

JT masks cover a broad spectrum. They have cheap, entry level masks and high quality tournament caliber masks. Personally, I use a Proflex and love it.
Also, the JT Team pants are very nice as well.

The HaloB is a very nice hopper, one which I also use. I use the aftermarket Victory board, but still it's a very high quality hopper which is easily on par with the Vlocity. The Vlocity is simply lighter. Also, I use a Pulse and I would say it's on par with that as well.

[Tweeters]

Haha, you just called a Halo high quality.

haha, you're way too biased towards Vlocities.

[dead head]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

Seriously...they're a capitalistic business, not Nazis.

why do you have a link to a page talking about how people claim that certain companies are nazi's? you must have been saving that for a rainy day. :dodgy:

Wow dude, your an idiot.

So Halo's are better because they look better? I agree that they look better but thats the only thing a Halo has over a Vlocity. Seriously, go out and play some paintball.

lol.

[CapnCrunch]

haha, you're way too biased towards Vlocities.
How am I biased? I've used both, and I prefer Vlocities.

EDIT: Sorry deadhead, I didn't realize I was in English class.

[Tweeters]

no, you're biased towards vlocities. its nice that you've used both, but you fail to acknowledge the fact that Halos also their advantages.

[CapnCrunch]

I've owned both. I can't thing of anything a stock Halo can do that a stock Vlocity can't, other than look better. But, please, enlighten me.

EDIT: Halo's are smaller, forgot that. But that's all I can think of...

[Tweeters]

vlocities eat way more batteries than a halo. halos you can leave them on all day and still have batteries left for weeks. vlocities..no.

[CapnCrunch]

Alright I don't agree w/ the battery statement but that doesnt matter. Their both good loaders, I just have had bad luck with Halos and prefer Vlocities, you prefer Halos and thats what works best for you.

Sorry for making a big deal about this, I just thought it was ignorant to say that Vlocity couldn't even compete with a Halo.

[Tweeters]

it was just as ignorant to say vice versa. way to argue :rolleyes:.

the battery statement is true. it was one of the biggest quips about the vlocities when they first came out.

[CapnCrunch]

Yeah thats true.

[L BLOODY]

I don't understand the quibbles people have about the weight of things in their hand playing pb. Balance is important but are you really going to fuss about something in your hand that weighs less than 20 lbs?

I spent years building retaining walls with blocks engineered at 90lbs (so they were 90-110) and would lay many thousand in a given day.

I trained with 120 lbs on my back and climbed the mountains of snowdonia.

And some of you lot are complaining about an ounce here and there...

Frankly I'd put weights on my marker if I had time. I have to make an effort to get out of this office each day and do outdoors activity such as cutting down cedars with a machete, maintaining my pb field etc. If I didn't I'd be a gangly geek all anemic and frail.

So stop moaning about the weight of your hopper and instead please try and give your business to a company that doesn't hedge their bets by selling to walmart and the likes.

[CapnCrunch]

I don't understand the quibbles people have about the weight of things in their hand playing pb. Balance is important but are you really going to fuss about something in your hand that weighs less than 20 lbs?

I spent years building retaining walls with blocks engineered at 90lbs (so they were 90-110) and would lay many thousand in a given day.

I trained with 120 lbs on my back and climbed the mountains of snowdonia.

And some of you lot are complaining about an ounce here and there...

Frankly I'd put weights on my marker if I had time. I have to make an effort to get out of this office each day and do outdoors activity such as cutting down cedars with a machete, maintaining my pb field etc. If I didn't I'd be a gangly geek all anemic and frail.

So stop moaning about the weight of your hopper and instead please try and give your business to a company that doesn't hedge their bets by selling to walmart and the likes.
How about I buy the product that I like best and don't give a **** about whether they give their business to Wal-Mart.

[^_^]

Wow it's stupid when people complain because other people think a marker weighs too much. Thinking a marker or a loader weighs too much doesn't mean the person is a wimp. The reason it's good to have super light stuff is so it's easier to snap shoot and maneuver your marker faster.

[Tweeters]

yawn. hating a company for selling to walmart is like hating smart parts.

its retarded, but its the cool thing to do.

[L BLOODY]

The reason it's good to have super light stuff is so it's easier to snap shoot and maneuver your marker faster if you're weak and slow.

..meh.... I think you probably get the point (at least I hope you do ) - that being that most people complaining about the weight of, say, a new NXT shocker are most likely quite young children. Lots of children on this board there is.

How is an ounce on the marker here and there going to offset the weight of the paint and tank? Not very much is the answer.

[L BLOODY]

yawn. hating a company for selling to walmart is like hating smart parts.

its retarded, but its the cool thing to do.

Your point is good and valid apart from one factor.

Can you guess what it is according to my contention?

[amargio1]

look guys why don't we stop shopping at wal-mart for everything we go there for ?!!! how can anyone put down a product because of where it is sold. now i know what everyone thinks about paintball at wal-mart but that is the store that 80% of noobs to the sport shop at.that is where the start begins. JT is very smart to have this customer. business is business in all industries.
i have a little trailer with tiny wheels and i buy new tires from wal-mart for 19 bucks each...i needed badly 1 tire and went to firestone and paid 44 bucks for the same tire. i was stuck on freeway and had to find a tire place....no wal-mart even half close so $44.
seems we all talk about cockers like we know all...palmer and orr have differences on who really made the cocker, there is no set in stone for sure which one did it.
my gun shoots farther than yours will always be a subject that we pursue for some strange reason lol !
play with what works best for you that is why there is so many new things always coming out...try them and if you like them, buy !!
now please everyone lets go and just have fun and everyone enjoy what you have if it works. happy paintballin people !

[Lopez17]

We're way off topic on this one.