The future of the low end?

[apbrendanw]

Reading through old threads and looking back on paintball, ive noticed a massive decline in blowback markers. They used to be decent markers that most people could afford and use. Now, with the release of ultrabudget electro pneumatics,(sp vibe mainly)the low end marker is almost completly gone. This honestly upsets me, as these markers were of generally better quality than the cheap electro pneumatics that are coming out lately. Is the low end dead? or is this just a regression? or will the class be completly re defined.

[iliveforthis99]

There's still more blowbacks then low/mid-end EP's. I would expect blowbacks to suddenly be phased out just yet or ever really. There's still a large market for them, bigger then the all the other EP's.

[f.r.a.n.t.i.c..]

i do believe one of the biggest woodsball manufacturs still make blow baks.. and i ave asked my friends would they rather want a ego or a a-5 with out the resposnse trigger.. well of coure they said ego. but hey, who wouldnt... but that was the coice and some did pick the a-5 cause they, in my opinion are better... they might not get better gas efficiency but while in the woods would you rather be carring something that is reliable like a hammer.. or a noid that could rupture at every trigger pull... and dont get me started on the amout of paint you dont use.. cause myself, like most others cant afford 3 cases every time we go ballin..

[el zorro]

.. or a noid that could rupture at every trigger pull...
That statement is utter nonsense.

As for the original question. No blowbacks, as a class, are never going to disappear. Expensive tourney/speedball style blowbacks will disappear. Woodsball style blowbacks will be around for along time. Entry level blowbacks will also continue to be very popular.

The main thing that is happening is the affordability and better efficiency and accuracy of the entry level full electros are capturing the market formerly controled by the upper end electric blowbacks so there is a transition taking place in that one area that is deminishing blowback sales.

[NoelyDeezNutz]

the only reason i cant see blowbacks going anywhere is the ease of use for a new player... they just grab a co2 tank and screw it on and shoot it... no reg to worry about, just a velocity screw...

higher end blowbacks arent going anywhere (vs2, vs3, aura, synergy as well as the new kingman one...)

[Corrupted355]

Blowbacks are too big right now in Scenarioball. At the Free Finale in Florida, there were easily twice as many blowback semi's as there were EP's. And it's not like all these guns are for beginners either. It's fairly common to see MilSim markers that have more than $1,000 worth of parts sunk into them. My A-5 is a perfect example (click below). The following is so massive that you'll never be able to squash it. There will always be guys like me who would rather use a pump than an EP. Sure, they're faster, quieter, more efficient, and potentially more accurate... but we just don't care. The carburetor crowd will always have a strong following.

[Lenny17]

...The carburetor crowd will always have a strong following.

I had to laugh pretty good at this one. My old Cutlass has a four barrel carb on a 307 V8, that was a fun car to drive.

But I have to agree with you. A lot of people don't want 'fancy electronics' on their markers, and performance is not the issue. Don't get me wrong, 'accuracy by volume' can be a valid tactic, but it is not the only one.

[JoshPuffyPuff]

A lot of people don't want 'fancy electronics' on their markers.

True, not to say that ep guns are bad, but personally I like the way a mechanical gun feels better. That and especailly among newer players blowbacks are alot easier to maintain, and generally require less maintanince. Just my 2 cents.

[Algernon]

Reading through old threads and looking back on paintball, ive noticed a massive decline in blowback markers. They used to be decent markers that most people could afford and use. Now, with the release of ultrabudget electro pneumatics,(sp vibe mainly)the low end marker is almost completly gone. This honestly upsets me, as these markers were of generally better quality than the cheap electro pneumatics that are coming out lately. Is the low end dead? or is this just a regression? or will the class be completly re defined.

i did believe that electromechanical blowbacks were about dead, but recently they have made a big comeback. these new low pressure blowbacks are closing the gap between the old style high presure blowbacks and the entry level EPs. the mokal aurora for example runs at $150 psi. that's super low for a high-end EP, but for a blowback? that's crazy. the VS series markers and the WGP synergy are more examples of low priced, low pressure blowbacks.

it's the FASOR markers from tiawain that almost did them in. these markers are manufactured by the same company that used to manufacture the hords of spyder clones back when high-pressure blowbacks were in. these FASORs used the same bodies, or were derived from the same bodies, front blocks, retooled end caps, feednecks, barrels and electromechanical grip frames as the spyder clones from taiwain. all a FASOR marker like the diablo wrath or REX RX is, is a electromechanical spyder clone that has been redesigned on the proverbial drawing board to make it into a super cheap EP marker; the parts are dearly identical. these markers are popular, but no major marker company really took the time to invest in them. diablo enjoyed some success with the wrath, but empire instead of dumping money into diablo and the wrath, killed it to focus on the production of the invert mini.

blowbacks narrowly escaped death and they knew it. this is why we have these new low pressure blowbacks on the market.

[Hipster]

From a persnal point of view, I prefer my Low end victor. I've played with it, added all sorts of ups, and have a really solid understanding of how it works and how to maitain it. Yes, an EP is probably better, but I like the fact that I can just drop the internals out of my spyder and play around with them (can you imagine modding an Ego with a dremmel?!) and the fact that my gun is unique, and perfectly suited to my playing style.
Most local fields I play woodsball at rent 98cs, and so I rarely need to shoot more than a few shots a second to stay competetative, and most tournies cap at 15bps, which I can easily reach with my sypder, so in practice, I am not limited by it, even if an EP is theorretically better.
As a comparison, I'm selling my car next year, and buying a Landrover - as I can bolt various bits on and off, and take power tools to it if I feel like...

[Corrupted355]

From a persnal point of view, I prefer my Low end victor. I've played with it, added all sorts of ups, and have a really solid understanding of how it works and how to maitain it. Yes, an EP is probably better, but I like the fact that I can just drop the internals out of my spyder and play around with them (can you imagine modding an Ego with a dremmel?!) and the fact that my gun is unique, and perfectly suited to my playing style.
Most local fields I play woodsball at rent 98cs, and so I rarely need to shoot more than a few shots a second to stay competetative, and most tournies cap at 15bps, which I can easily reach with my sypder, so in practice, I am not limited by it, even if an EP is theorretically better.
As a comparison, I'm selling my car next year, and buying a Landrover - as I can bolt various bits on and off, and take power tools to it if I feel like...

There's a member of the carburetor crowd right there...

[el zorro]

From a persnal point of view, I prefer my Low end victor. I've played with it, added all sorts of ups, and have a really solid understanding of how it works and how to maitain it. Yes, an EP is probably better, but I like the fact that I can just drop the internals out of my spyder and play around with them (can you imagine modding an Ego with a dremmel?!) and the fact that my gun is unique, and perfectly suited to my playing style.
Most local fields I play woodsball at rent 98cs, and so I rarely need to shoot more than a few shots a second to stay competetative, and most tournies cap at 15bps, which I can easily reach with my sypder, so in practice, I am not limited by it, even if an EP is theorretically better.
As a comparison, I'm selling my car next year, and buying a Landrover - as I can bolt various bits on and off, and take power tools to it if I feel like...
Although I have joined the ranks of the fuel injected I appreciate Hipsters take on things.

I believe this also points us to a truth that needs to be impressed in the minds of younger players. The best player on the field isn't necessarily the one with the fastest, most expensive EP but tactics such as flanking, manuevering and stalking are of far more value. Anyone who uses a plain old blowback but knows how to move and work as a team is of much more concern to me either as a player or an opponenent than some ignoramous who doesn't know a thing about how to outwit the opponent but has the latest shoots-150 BPS-high dollar-AGG (whatever that is) marker etc.

Consequently, there will always be players who understand this and will continue to prove it with their lowend markers.

[Corrupted355]

...AGG (whatever that is)...
This should clear up your confusion:
http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autowb437.html

[el zorro]

This should clear up your confusion:
http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autowb437.html
Hah, that was funny. At least I (unknowingly) nailed the meaning of it in my previous comments.:laugh:

[Coenen]

I'd hate to say that I personally will never go back to blowback from my Electros, but...I personally will never go back to blowback from my electros.

That doesn't mean I'm forsaking mechnical, or pump since I've still got an Automag, and Orry Cocker and a Phantom on my "guns to own at least once" list, but the blowback thing is pretty much done for me.

I've still got my Tippmann, I still love it, but it's just not the same any more. A gun that I used to think was perfect seems now to be exactly what it is, a little bit heavy, a little bit bulky, a little bit clunky and maybe a shade on the slow side, although for a full mech setup it was pretty quick in its time. I would like to think that I stuck with my blowback gun for as long as I could, and paid my dues and cultivated the skills I needed to have a high-end gun and not be thought of as another rich kid hiding behind a wall of paint. Maybe that's true maybe it's not, but I know for a fact that if I'd always had the best, fastest, most advanced, gun I probably wouldn't be the same player I am today. I doubt that I would appreciate the game and the opportunity to be out there shooting that computer controlled super gun as much as I do.

Blowback will never die. We will be seeing them, at least as rental guns, for as long as any of us will probably play paintball. The technology behind them is so simple, they are so near to idiot proof that there is no way there will never be a market for them. They are the best starter guns, IMO you NEED to start with a blowback, you need to understand what having an actual slow gun is and how to play this game for real before someone hands you a chunk of aluminum and technology that will be a crutch to your lack of knowledge. That's typical of today's young culture though, 'I want it all...now,' they don't want to really be good at paintball, they want to throw that gun in ramping and go shoot up a bunch of unsuspecting 10yr. olds. Then they want to sit out when the actual good players get on the field, I've seen that done so many times, and it drives me crazy.

A lot of today's new players don't understand that there was a time when not everyone had a high-end or could afford high-end performance. There was a time when a mechanical Cocker was $900, that was only maybe 4 years ago. Some of these kids don't know how good they have it. If you handed them a Spyder Xtra and put them on a speedball field against some of today's markers all they'd do is complain or quit. Not too long ago that scenario happened all the time and people still had plenty of fun at it, now there are people for whom that is unthinkable. It's a sad state of affairs.

Sometimes I worry about where this sport is going. Then I realize that as long as I can find about five other guys like me so we can play some 3-man I'll be pretty happy. Five real players shouldn't be too hard to find out there right?

I don't know what it was, but this thread definitely struck a chord with me.

[Hipster]

I probably have a very weird take on things, as although I've only been playing seriously for the last three years or so, I had another bout of regular playing back in the days when we were all using pumps and shooting a couple of hundred balls in a day was considered excessive! I leanrt to move, and win games with my head, not my gun, which has stood me in good stead ever since I started again.
My nextdoor neighbour has a 14yr old kid, who has just started playing, and uses an IxonX. He is f##### deadly, and seems to have some mad isntinct on when to move and when to stay put and shoot. I particularly enjoyed wtahcing him shoot a "my Ion can shoot 35bps.." guy right in between the shoulder baldes last month. It kinda doesn't matter how fast you can shoot if you don't notice that the opposition have a guy behind you!

[el zorro]

I probably have a very weird take on things,
There's nothing weird about being right, IMO.

[Graybass_20x6]

I think it would take a long time for blowback designs to completely disappear, especially in woodsball. It's still a major market.

[black_angus1]

As long as CO2 is common, blowbacks will be there.

But if they ever make a CO2-compatible EP for under $200, the blowback market will decline like no other.

[iliveforthis99]

^ ever hear of the Vibe and SP-1?

[el zorro]

As long as CO2 is common, blowbacks will be there.

But if they ever make a CO2-compatible EP for under $200, the blowback market will decline like no other.Ion's were selling for about $200 when I bought mine. The fact that it can be run on A/S CO2, which I do, was a major factor in my decision to buy one. Consequently, there has been a decline that led to the start of this thread.

[Coffinstuffer]

As long as CO2 is common, blowbacks will be there.

But if they ever make a CO2-compatible EP for under $200, the blowback market will decline like no other.



^ ever hear of the Vibe and SP-1?


Mmmmmhmm : P

Personally, I think the low-end market is screwed. The Vibe and SP-1 are the first of their kind, not the last.

[Corrupted355]

You are all still forgetting about those of us who don't WANT high end EP's. I've shot a Mini, an Ion, a DM6, and a PMR, and I'd rather shoot a mech 'Cocker any day. I have no explanation as to why, I just don't like the electros. They just don't feel substantial enough.

[iliveforthis99]

I wouldn't say ion to much when it comes to CO2 but you're right it can run off A/S CO2 and as can the wrath fairly well i believe. Even w/ those guns on the the market i doubt the blowback will be going anywhere anytime soon they're still very much alive and kicking. The VS line is what will save the blowback, LP, eyes, reg all stock and w/ the RSX adding the tadao board i'd say blowbacks are coming back a little bit.

[Milky Spore]

You are all still forgetting about those of us who don't WANT high end EP's. I've shot a Mini, an Ion, a DM6, and a PMR, and I'd rather shoot a mech 'Cocker any day. I have no explanation as to why, I just don't like the electros. They just don't feel substantial enough.

I agree, when I shoot my PM5 it feels weird. I can't describe it but I don't like it. I know it's much more high performance and shoots smoother than my 99', all stock, mechanical Autococker, but the Autococker is just more fun to shoot and I feel I do just as well with it.

[apbrendanw]

though a small market doesnt want them, most people would rather have eps

[Lenny17]

though a small market doesnt want them, most people would rather have eps

I have to disagree completely. There are a lot of woodballers out there that want mechanical guns, more than a 'small market'. I play at a well established woodsball field, and most of what you see are blowbacks. It isn't a case of a couple people that need to use CO2, or can't afford an ep marker. It is the majority of the people, and they are people that prefer blowbacks.

There is a lot more to paintball then the specs of your marker.

[apbrendanw]

yes, but to what ive noticed, the people who prefer mechs have been further buying guns like autocockers/mags

[iliveforthis99]

Ok please listen it might seem to you that blowbacks are going away but i can assure they aren't. There's still a large market for them probably a little bigger still then for the budget EP's. Blowbacks are only getting better not dieing out.

[Corrupted355]

Ok please listen it might seem to you that blowbacks are going away but i can assure they aren't. There's still a large market for them probably a little bigger still then for the budget EP's. Blowbacks are only getting better not dieing out.
Agreed. Take for example all the cool things you can do to a Tippmann that will make it an excellent performer. There is literally an endless number of parts designed specifically for 98's and A-5's. There is a reason the aftermarket for those guns is so massive; the number of owners is equally as massive.

And I also agree with Lenny. My local field also features an 8 or 9 to one ratio of blowbacks to EP's in players who bring their own stuff. Almost all of those blowbacks have more money sunk into them than it would have cost to buy one of those bottom dollar EP's, and about half of them are running on HPA. That tells me that they made the choice to have a blowback and continue to make that choice every time they play with it. Most of these guys are bored executives with comfy desk jobs that do this for the fun on the weekend. They want something loud, raucous, vulgar and completely different from their day jobs. EP's are just too clean, too quiet, and too boring.

[Curly Fry]

for the most part, i like blowbacks cause they are reliable. i want a gun i can dive with, bash against rocks, drive over with a truck and still be able to shoot it. The model 98 is the exact gun i want, nothing less, nothing more.

sure it could be lighter, shorter and whatnot, but i dont play the sport to win, i play to have fun

[apbrendanw]

so in the rest of the country they are still popular

[iliveforthis99]

Yes.

[Corrupted355]

Absolutely. Go to any outlaw field where guys with their own gear gather in the woods somewhere to play.

[Graybass_20x6]

Besides, aren't blowbacks generally easier to work on or field-strip than EPs?

Just wondering, as I've yet to actually get my hands on an EP.

[Coenen]

Depends on the gun, and your definition of field stripping.

In general a high-end gun is just about the same in terms of being worked on, they have a lot of the same issues as any gun. O-rings, cup seals(for stacked tube ram/poppets) etc. If you ever get into the guts of some of the more common high-end markers you will realize that most are very simple. After all, simplicity is the most basic building block of reliability.

Really I'd say that they're about a horse a piece in terms of working on them. A lot of people psych themselves out with a high-end, they see batteries, wires and a circuit board and think that the thing is uber complicated when really it's not that bad.

[Corrupted355]

Take the difference between an A-5 and an Autococker as far as field stripping goes. To pull the front bolt out of an A-5, you pull four pins, the rear endcap, the grip, the tombstone, the hammer, valve, and finally the front bolt. You can then see straight through the back of the gun out the front.

But for a 'Cocker, it's one pin and the bolt slides out. You can see straight through the gun.

[iliveforthis99]

You shouldn't really ever need to "field strip" a BB anyway.

[invisible man]

There will always be low end blow backs. You know why? Because they are inexpensive, reliable, and avaliable. As long as there is a demand for one of these, which there is, They will always be there.

[apbrendanw]

shoebox shockers can be had for under 200 and are co2 compatible, but its not desireable in any way.though quite interesting responses ive gotten.

[Lenny17]

True, but wally-world blowbacks can be had for something like $50. $100 and they'll include a hopper, mask, CO2 tank and some paint. As long as blowbacks can be made so cheap, they will always be there.

[Apache Baller]

I blame rap music.