The TRUTH about range and distance.

[Killerbob]

Tell me HOW certain guns could have more range than others if their speed is the SAME. Most barrels are the same - straight. The only exception is the flatline, which produces lift because it spins.

[NSUCK]

simple, they dont

[Killerbob]

I don't understand why I hear things like "the autococker has more range than the c98" - it's complete bull.

[splatterpunx]

the autococker has a flatter trajectory what that works out to
is it being more accurate for a longer period of time,tighter groups,and is waaay mor consistant,wich also means you can
stay closer to the chrono limit,but no it doesent shoot further

[elTwitcho]

lol, the only thing funnier than someone believing a certain gun has a flatter trajectory than another, is someone who believes a gun has a flatter trajectory but the same range. So the balls what? Travel perfectly flat and then drop straight down since the trajectory is flatter but the range is the same?

All guns shoot the same distance, same range, and same trajectory (flatline excluded). Consistency is a product of your air system and Low Pressure Regulator, no marker is inherently more consistent than any other, and no marker is inherently more accurate

[splatterpunx]

hmm ,i own,buy,sell,trade,and work in paintball,ive spent 14 years shooting them,there is a difference.

and theres load's of industry leaders,and long time players who
belive the same,side by side, markers will perform differently
if they did not we would all be shooting the same thing,there are huge differences in things like material quality,machining percision,
and design that will absolutly affect the performance of the marker, in all aspect's. those are fact's not opinion

[elTwitcho]

Quality of manufacturing will not break, alter or modify the laws of physics in any way shape or form

[GutShot]

So by that logic all that should ever matter is having HPA, and a good regulator? The marker itself is completely irrelevant? If that's the case, then an electro spyder or tippmann should be every bit as good as an Angel..correct? And a stock barrel with proper paint match should be able to stand with a boomstick.

[elTwitcho]

A spyder with the same barrel/paint match, same regulator and same nitro system will be every bit as accurate as any angel will be. A boomstick is no more accurate than any other barrel (you just think it is because it costs the most) and that's about it.

[GutShot]

Well I never actually claimed that the boomstick was the best, I just used a well know high accuracy barrel. My issue is, sure quote the laws of physics and all. But I'm still not so sure it's that simple. Take for instance...spin. Lots of people have asked about rifling putting spin on a paintball and whether or not it'll improve accuracy. To this, others have insisted, take a glass of water and spin it...note the ice doesnt' spin. Ok, so if spin doesn't affect a paintball, then how does the flatline work? Obviously back spin affects a ball, but lateral spin does not. Explain the pysics on that one. Also, I seriously doubt that a stock barrel with a perfect paint match will perform exactly the same as a quality aftermarket. I personally have switched barrels in the past and noticed significant performace changes. I'm not claiming to know all the reasons why, but I'm willing to bet there are factors that affect a paintball's flight that can't be summed up with the extremely basic physics argument of same air pressure plus paint/barrel match means the ball will fly the same. I guarantee there are other factors that, no matter how little, impact the flight of a paintball.

[elTwitcho]

I'm glad you brought up the spin argument, because actual testing also supports the laws of physics. Here's a link

http://www.dancris.com/~six/pcri.htm

or if you'd like, I can just highlight the pertinent areas...


Rifling a barrel and spinning a paintball increases accuracy
AGD took a barrel and mounted it in a lathe head. With the barrel spinning, paintballs were fired from it with a non-spinning barrel used as a control. It was found that a barrel would have to spin at a rate (don't quote me on this, but if someone could verify, I would appreciate it) of 6000 rpm before any change was noticed.


Not only are the laws of physics completely unbreakable, but they become laws because data suports their assumptions. I look at it this way, physics say all guns shoot the same, testing says all guns shoot the same, and my personal experience says that all guns shoot the same. There's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise, because it's just not true

[Slug]

el twitcho i agree with u on everything except a few things. One the only real reason that barrels are kore accurate than one another is paintball to bore match.However the honing on a barrel will also make a difference.Most stcok barrels are not as well honed as after market barrels. Are you also telling me that a spyder will be as consistent as a angel if you put the same nitro and reg on both of them. I dont think so the angels superior internal parts and method of operation will give it better consistency.(not sure by how much though):blah:

[elTwitcho]

I've seen spyders get +-1 at the chronograph before. You can't argue that a spring/hammer combo is inherently innacurate or inconsistent, since that is the same system used on an autococker, which also properly set up will get +/- 1 fps at the chronograph. The shortcomings of a Spyder come in with it's high kick, blowback and somewhat unimpressive trigger pull. And yes, an improperly honed barrel will give problems with accuracy, but any aftermarket barrels are made to such a level of quality that the difference between them is negligible.

[GutShot]

Ok so given the above the quality of the barrel does impact accuracy, although the quality difference in aftermarket barrels is most likely minimal. And the kick of the marker affects accuracy which in turn leads to the conclusion that the marker does in fact affect accuracy. And thus if you upgrade a tippmann or spyder with HPA, low pressure, good regulator, and quality barrel, and say an electronic mod to boot, you can have a marker that shoots just as fast and as accurately as any cocker/angel out there. In theory.
If this is the case, then why all the low-end vs high-end discussions? And why all the low-end marker bashing?

As a recent upgrader, I'm just curious. Not trying to start a flame-fest here or anything.

[Slug]

here is a idea the high end gun people spend so much more they have to convince themselves the purchase is woth it by bashing low end guns.

[elTwitcho]

Accuracy in my opinion refers to one shot, going as close as possible to where you point it. And any marker can have the same accuracy as another. During rapid fire however, this changes because a marker that kicks more will have a wider spread at longer distances. But in terms of one shot, there really won't be any difference. The reason to buy an electro over a blowback is because they feed faster (no blowback) and hence fire faster, are more reliable, longer lasting and built to higher standards. They also in general look better. Then there are certain upgrades not available to blowback markers, like low pressure cycling that won't chop, anti-chop eyes, enhanced fire modes, game timers and the like

[stray bullet]

Both arguments are correct. The law of physics can't be changed, better barrels and low-pressure markers do give more range.
How?
Better barrels cause the ball to tumble less in the barrel because of the superior surface, less friction and imperfections, thus reducing the amount that the ball is deformed. Low pressure deforms the ball even less. If you think that a paintball stays perfectly round though a barrel you're nuts. What’s the big deal? Here's the physics part, the math doesn't lie. The more the ball is deformed when it leaves the barrel it dissipates the forward motion, energy, trying to reform itself as well as altering the trajectory. End of argument, missing element found.

Ha…

[Killerbob]

Ah yes, now that I remember, stray bullet is completely correct! I seem to remember someone telling me about that a long time ago. Thanks man.

[elTwitcho]

If I think a ball stays perfectly round coming out the barrel I'm nuts? High speed photography (also done by Tom at AGD) shows paintballs coming from the Automag RT (relatively high pressure) with no distortion whatsoever. Paintballs don't distort, and they don't wobble. Take one in your finger and pinch it, it won't budge until of course it breaks. We're firing projectiles more akin to eggs than waterbaloons, so the wobble argument is also indeed quite false

[Sid]

The wobble argument is not false. Take a paintball and drop it from standing height on pavement. It bounces. For the paintball to bounce it must change shape, unless you believe that cement is more flexible than a paintball. Now if "the laws of physics" as you so put cannot be broken, how could a paintball not be warped when struck by a bolt in a blowback? Paintballs do have a certain degree of elasticity, showing its "water balloon" characteristics. A paintball does have "egg" like characteristics in that it will break given enough force.

A paintball does not break when hit by a blow-back bolt because the paintball is hit with force just under the breakage threshold. If paintballs were exactly like eggs, without any elasticity, blow-backs would not work.

[elTwitcho]

Talking about a ball bouncing off the ground is all fine and good, but high speed video (which I've seen, it's in the RT Video) shows no deformation whatsoever of a ball coming out the barrel of the gun. Besides, even if air did cause the ball to deform, how would it do so? It can't spread ******ds since the walls of the barrel are there, and the force is applied uniformly on the back of the ball, so how exactly would this mystical deformation take place?

[Sid]

Its not mystical, force is applied to one side. You have a straight barrel and a round ball. If the paintball were a paint cylinder, with flat surfaces front and back, the wouldn't be any room for deformation. With a sphere however, the ball only contacts the barrel with a very small surface area which leaves room for deformation. The rear of the ball can spread ******d. You can't rule out the possibility of a deformed ball.

[elTwitcho]

Yes, force is applied to the rear of the ball, which pushes the ball out the barrel. If the ball were perhaps not properly sized for your barrel and there was an extremely high amount of friction, then you'd possibly see deformation at the back of the ball. But a paintball slides pretty easily out a barrel. And besides, the ball would only spread out at the back if pressure were being applied to just the back tip of the ball. But pressure is applied evenly, almost cupping the ball so it doesn't really make sense that the ball would deform

[Slug]

i think that this argument can be summed up if you read all the stuff saiyan warrior posted at the top of this forum. Titled "Everything you want to know about range and accuracy"
Personally i agree with el twitcho i mean if the photos showthe ball is not deformed then the ball is not deformed. If you could answer that sid i think it would help your argument.

[cakman2]

Yo. I got a Cocker and had a Tippman 98C. Cocker outshoots distance and accuracy bar none, no doubt about it. It is because it is a closed bolt and not a blow back. It works the same as a pump. Wanna see the difference? Shoot a Phnatom Pump and a Tippy side by side. You will swear the Phantom is shooting 500 fps cause it shoots so much farther. Physics of the guns are far more complicated than you are making them out to be.

My buddies ***** and moan every time I take them out from 100 yards. The Cocker simply fires farther and more consisitently, don't ask me why, but it does. This is not some big debate, it is a well known fact. Can't say whether Mags and Angels do the same, but they are blow back and blow forward operating. Get a Cocker. Obviously the dude saying there is no difference in the guns has Spyder or a Pirahna or else he would know better.

Does a Toyota 4 cylinder perform the same as a Porsche 4 cylinder? No offense to peeps with the cheaper rigs, but face the fact that not all guns are created equally.

[elTwitcho]

Paitnball guns are not cars, so the comparison isn't even remotely applicable. And no it is not a fact that closed bolt guns shoot farther, that's actually marketing hype you can thank Smart Parts for. As I've said time and time again, the laws of physics are laws because they can't be broken. Why should these hold true for every aspect of our lives except for paintball guns? Doesn't make alot of sense does it?

And I've fired cockers, mags, matrices, angels, excaliburs, shockers, impulses, blowbacks and intimidators extensively since someone on my team has had one of these guns for some time or other. I've also shot my share of other guns, but not for long periods of time like the previously mentioned guns. And never, not once have I seen paintballs fly differently from one gun to another in terms of range or trajectory

[Sangamon]

I have not seen this video that you mention but I would think that there is no deformation To the human eye

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


And yes even the minimal deforming that goes on will change the balls characteristics.

[elTwitcho]

A ball isn't perfectly round to start with. Slight irregularites will always be present in any ball so minute deformities won't likely do anything at all

[cakman2]

Well, I have fired half as many guns as you, half as many times and without slow motion photography and it was clear to my naked eye that the Phantom Pump and the Cocker both fired MUCH farther than the Spyder or the Tippman. I didn't have to go to MIT to prove what was crystal friggin clear to my naked eye. We are talking considerable distances here. If you dont think that a ball fired from stand still in a closed bolt as opposed to one being jammed into the barrel by a blowback bolt makes a difference, then you certainly don't buy into these laws of Physics you seem to know so much about. Also, if you believe a flimsy a-s paintball fired at 300fps does not warp at all, you really know nothing about physics. In fact, I have seen 2 nearly identical in every aspect guns fire completely different from one another from one shot to the next (mostly because of paint incosistecy and pressure spikes). If you didnt like my car example, then how about a firearms one. A 38 special POS bought at a pawn shop shooting the same ammo as a Glock or Berretta, will they fire the same because the amount of powder is identical and the muzzle velocity is the same. No, the gun itself actually plays a role in the accuracy of the shot.

[Codestar20]

Cakman- Were the velocity settings the same? You have mentioned nothing about that. Also WARPIG did a test wondering if closed bolt did add range and accuracy and it did not. They took a stingray and used it as the blow back. They then modified it to be closed bolt and it was not any more accurate. I don't think the gun plays such a huge role in accuracy as you say. It is the barrel that makes the biggest difference. And in paintball, accuracy is all in the paint to barrel match and how nice the barrel quality is.

[cakman2]

I agree that barrels and paint matches are the most important thing in accuracy. All the guns I am talking about were shooting 300 fps +/- 5 fps. Again, I can't give you the scientific explanantion, but I witnessed the Pump and the Closed bolt semi shoot much farther and with a more accurate trajectory at long distance. Also, more consistant shot placement at long distance. I have read other tests on paint and barrel matches and agree that they are the most inmportant factors, with a closed bolt or a pump I believe you get the most consistent pressure and least amount of escaped gas. There are some good test results on paintballtimes.com. Also, read the review of the black magic autococker. Also, check out my review of V-Force Morph mask. They are sweeeeeet.

[cakman2]

Also, consider this for a minute. A Brass Eagle Blade and a DYE Autococker, both shooting 300 fps. I am pretty sure you are going to see at least a small performance difference. If there was no differnece in the guns we would all be shooting Walmart specials with 8 inch barrels and not spending an arm ond a leg on new upgrades every two weeks.

(A lot of peopel have told me that my Autococker makes a distinctive whistling sound on near miss shots, does anyone know why the balls sound differently from this marker? I am not just being a bonehead, this gun really DOES shoot farther and seems to maintain its velocity over a greater distance.)

Has anyone ever been to Challenge Park in Illinois. I am going up their for Memorial Weekend. Need some feedback.

[Slug]

yes cakman closed bolt markers may be more efficient but u have yet to give ONE reason why they make paintballs go farther.

I'm thinking that you reasoned i spent 1000+ (or close to that) therefore it must have better range.dont get me wrong in no way are i saying that a pos tippy or spyder will be as good as your cocker.
All i ask is for u to give me one just one reason why your cocker will shoot farther.

[elTwitcho]

Every gun I've ever seen has fired balls that whistle... And I already mentioned twice the advantages of high end guns over cheap blowbacks. Accuracy or range have nothing to do with it

[Slug]

cakman the reason u will notice a differnce in range between a dye cocker and brasseagle blade is that one shot the blade will fire 300 the next it will fire 250. if you can get them to both fire consitently they will shoot the same distance. The dye cocker will also have a better air system.

[Slug]

oh also every gun i have been shot at by and where the paintball whizzed by my head they all made a whizzz whistle sound.

[cakman2]

A DISTINCTIVE whistle. ;) I have heard the standard whistle you are talking about.

Seriously, I was Psych major, not a Physics major. Go to your local field, find a guy with a Cocker and another guy with Spyder. Make sure they both have aftermarket barrels and similar paint. Point them at the same angle, slighly above 90 degrees off the ground and shoot three times each. Write me next week to tell me which Cocker you are buying.

[Killerbob]

Originally posted by cakman2
fps cause it shoots so much farther. Physics of the guns are far more complicated than you are making them out to be.

Does a Toyota 4 cylinder perform the same as a Porsche 4 cylinder? No offense to peeps with the cheaper rigs, but face the fact that not all guns are created equally.

Man, you aren't very smart. If the ball does not have distortion when it leaves the barrel, and 2 paintballs coming from 2 different guns (say an angel and a m98) leave with the same velocity, they will go the exact same distance. PERIOD.

The cars are entirely different situation, idiot. PLEASE, go to school.

[Killerbob]

Originally posted by cakman2
A 38 special POS bought at a pawn shop shooting the same ammo as a Glock or Berretta, will they fire the same because the amount of powder is identical and the muzzle velocity is the same. No, the gun itself actually plays a role in the accuracy of the shot.

You MUST KEEP IN MIND that we judge paintball speeds by the speed of the ball AFTER IT LEAVES THE BARREL!! (so your sophism is inherently worthless)

The process the paintball takes to get out of the barrel may be different, but it they leave the barrel with the same velocity and same amount of distortion, they should be the same.

[cakman2]

Ahhh, "Should" be the same, but for some unknown reason, They AREN'T. Tis a question we shall only know the reason to when we reach the world to come and the Lord (or maybe Bud Orr)fills us in. In the mean time, eat and drink and be merry, and play with a Cocker CAUSE THEY SHOOT FARTHER AND MORE ACCURATELY THAN ANY OTHER GUN (besides maybe a flatline, and goodness its an ugly barrel, especially on a cocker, or maybe a Phantom) DESPITE WHAT THE PROFFESOR SAYS. Say hi to Gilligan for me. Gotta work to make some money since I can't rely on my low intellect alone. I may be an idiot, but I am an idiot with a Cocker that shoots farther than a Spyder or a Tippman, Einstein. Peace.

[Codestar20]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cakman2
[B]Also, consider this for a minute. A Brass Eagle Blade and a DYE Autococker, both shooting 300 fps. I am pretty sure you are going to see at least a small performance difference. If there was no differnece in the guns we would all be shooting Walmart specials with 8 inch barrels and not spending an arm ond a leg on new upgrades every two weeks.


A BE Blade has a crappy, short, plastic barrel that is almost good for nothing. The Dye cocker has the boomy which is a great barrel, though slightly overpriced. I still don't see how a cocker has more range than any other marker (flatlines excluded). You said your cocker and the phantom out-ranged the tippy and the spyder by a big margin. I would still like to know how unless the velocities were very different. Also, guys, try and keep the flaming down. We don't want this thread closed.

[color_wolf]

I am not a man of physics, but I know a difference when I see one.
When I was using a Spyder TL+ at a practice I could barely make a shot reach the end of the airball field running at 280 +/- 5 fps. After a while I decided to change guns with my friend who was shooting a cocker at 280 +/- 2 fps. When I shot the cocker it was a lot farther than my TL. My spyder has an SP AA barrel and the cocker had a Dye SS.

[Meph]

Originally posted by cakman2

My buddies ***** and moan every time I take them out from 100 yards. The Cocker simply fires farther and more consisitently, don't ask me why, but it does. This is not some big debate, it is a well known fact.

100 yards? 100 YARDS??? Are you positive on that? Sorry, but I smell a lot of bull**** here. A Tippmann with Flatline can't even hit anything at that distance. Because 100y = 300f. Sorry, but I really smell you bull****ting here, Bigtime!

Myself, I don't want to get into it all I've shot, but I've shot electros, semis, pumps, select-fire.... pretty much you name it. And I have yet to find anything that is more accurate or shoots further.

You know why autocockers tend to be more accurate? Consistency, that is why. It's not because it's closed bolt (dolts!), it's consistency. That is one of the few corner-stones of accuracy.

Accuracy depends on these. Quality barrel, good paint to match, consistent valve operation, regulated FPS (as we all know, balls traveling 400fps or more travel like nose-diving airplane!). As far as the psi, I actually have yet to see how that helps with anything besides brittle paint... that's all the operating psi is good for. Accuracy is all paint, barrel, good fps setting, and a consistent air flow. That is about it. Closed bolt, open bolt, semi, pump, electro, blow back, blow forward.... those do not matter at all, all they do is give a different operating style with a lot of hype and bullcrap behind it.

Sorry, but ANYbody saying "XXX shoots farther/more accurate than YYY" is ignorant.

Please, before this even continues. ANYBODY that feels that an Autococker is more accurate.... before you type your Bud Orr brainwashing gibberish... please show proof. I'm not going to listen or even acknowledge "well I have an autococker and a M98 and I see my cocker's better" Because guess what? I also have those, and I have yet to see difference. So I don't think we're interested in any "personal experience" that anybody can type up and just say "Yeah, I have personal experience.... 2 weeks maybe, but I'm still a 2 week veteran!" I mean ballistics testing. Personal experience, even mine... is worthless. Because apparently, everybody's personal experience is on the left side of the right side.

So until you show rock hard proof that your autocockers shoot more accurate of 100 YARDS (haha, idiot), then don't bother posting.

[cakman2]

That's it, get angry. Paintball is worth getting angry about.

I am sure you have been hit by a ball or two that have come flying out of nowhere. It happens. I am not saying I was pointing the marker and it shot a straight line drive at 100 yards, it was a huge lob. The fact is that the ball went straight (no left/right) enough that all I had to do was adjust it like a mortar shot, it doesn't slice after 30 yards like a bad shot off the tee. I could care less if you believe me or not. All I know is that people b-tch that it's not fair that the Cocker shoots so much farther and they don't know squat about closed vs. open bolt arguments and Budd Orr's brainwashing schemes, they just know they are ducking for cover out of the starting box. Nuff said. You don't believe me, fine. Good luck. Peace.

No one ever told me if they have been to Challenge Park.

[elTwitcho]

100 yards is a football field... that's pretty damn far

[cakman2]

Exactly! I know what a hundred yards is. It's 300 feet. A football is actually 120 yards if you include the endzones which are actually part of the field. Go Rams. Better luck next year.

[Super 3]

O.K when you look at this from the physics side two guns shooting at the same velocity should shoot the same distance, with paint barrel match etc. Except that's a little cut and dry, there are a lot more factors involved here. You can not tell me that all of these differently machined parts and guns don't play some part in distance and accuracy. I would expect a higher end gun to be better at reducing little variances that a lower end gun has, therefore effecting the balls flight.

[elTwitcho]

Little variances like what? The ONLY factors relevant to a paintball gun that affects range is fps and spin, and spin doesn't become a factor until you start using barrels that impart a huge amount of it, like the flatline. A transfer from the valve that isn't perfectly machined won't affect range, it can't. A sear that isn't releasing as crsiply as on another gun won't affect range, it can't. A improperly machined breech that allows gas to escape past the bolt and into the feed tube won't affect range, it can't. It actually is really cut and dry, because all the other little factors simply don't matter

[cakman2]

I totally agree that a shot traveling the same speed with all other factors being the same should go the same distance. Maybe a Cocker or other high end marker it only appears to be shooting farther because the markers are effective from farther, like the shots land more consistently on target rather than diving sharply or slicing or hooking. That having been said. The movement on the ball has got to have other factors besides what barrel it came out of, like how the pressure is distributed behind the ball and such. Otherwise, there would be aboslutely no reason to buy improved bolts or other parts involved in the firing process. I don't know maybe there isn't a difference and we are all suckers like you all have been saying.

Being the sucker that I am. What bolt should I consider for my Cocker? Anyone?

Also, those doubting a 100 yard mark, think about it, a regulation fps fired ball should reach 100 yards in exactly one second, even factoring in wind resistance it still isn't much more than that. I am sure all of you have fired a ball that far before. Sure its a tough shot, but some spray n pray with small adjustments after each previous shot as the tracer, you should be able to hit a target standing in the open. Surprised you all find that so hard to believe.

[Codestar20]

No, it won't get there in one second. Wind resistance will slow the paintball down dramatically after about 150 ft. Have you noticed you are able to dodge paintballs coming at you from far away. They have slowed down so much that you can see them fairly easily. You would have to arch your gun pretty high to get it to hit 300ft accurately.

[cakman2]

I said that before. Read more carefully. The point is that the gun CAN shoot that far and if you rain continual shots on someone in the open it is quite possible to mark them from that distance. You can dodge paint from 30 feet too. But you can't dodge a blanket of fire when you have no cover unless you have Matrix abilities or are Remo Williams. Luck also plays a big part in shots of that distance. I said that I have done it, and can do it, not that it is my preferred method or a guaranteed mark. Back players in tourneys are known for making spray and pray shots from long distance. Sometimes that supressing fire makes a lucky mark. Okay, no more, I have said enough. All markers are created equally and deserve equal respect. I have seen the light.

[littlejerry]

gues what guys, all guns do get the same range. But, not all guns get the same acuracy, that is what matters. A gun that gets 5 inch groupings at 75 yards will appear to have longer range than one getting 30 inch groupings at 75 yards cuz some balls will fly left, right, down, and even up. So a stream of balls landing within 5 in seems to have more range than balls landing 30 incses parat. Also, paintballs can spin. The example of spinning a glass of water with ice in it is bs. Pball's arnt filled with water, they are filled with an oil bassed substance similar to shampoo, so go fill a glass with shampoo and spin it, i think you will see what im talkin about here. And yes, there are better barrels than others, because a boomy fits good paint better than a stock barrel does. And yes, balls can be warped when shot, here is why: Acceleration. The shell has less mass than the paint does, therefore it more easily accelerates than the paint does. The paint is "pushed" to the back of the shell causing it to slightly "stretch" after being shot.

[Killerbob]

Air resistence is a big thing, but not nearly as big of a deal as most people think. Even if a paintball can make it 100 yards in one second, one second is plenty of time to dodge it.

[stray bullet]

I never said that the ball was so distorted that it would look like a flying toaster comming out of the Lincoln tunnel but there is enough to cause loss of inertia. Here is a real test for high speed photography. Do the bounce test and see how fast a paintball reforms itself after it hits the ground. Yesterday I bounced a Daiblo ball 7 times from 6ft. until it broke. On average the ball bounced about 2 feet off the ground from the drop. How much energy and deformation is involved to make it bounce that high. If this is not "part" of the answer then explain why I don't have to elevate my Armson Stealth barrel nearly as much as my All American. Don't try to tell me that it rifles the ball. The barrel rifles the gas to even the pressure around the entire surface of the ball.

[Anubise]

And I quote, "Arguing over the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded." Case in point Cakman2, he will never learn because he believes so fully in hype from others, end discussion.

[cakman2]

:laugh: now that is funny!

"It's only funny cause its true." - Homer

[impy-bushy]

!***o all the idiots that dont think there is a differemce with diff guns and diff barrels.!!!! :pissed:

Heres a test for ya take a autococker and a spyder leave stock barrels on put each gun in a vise and make a target and put the target 25 feet away from the gun (make sure target is lined up with vise) thentake bout 10 shots with each gun
then measure the distanc from each splat to the center and see the difference. :D :crazy:

type of gun and type of barrel do make a difference like cocker and matrix when the shoot they have flat trajectery they dont lob like other piece of **** gun's.:blah:

[infil]

Hmmm...
Well, Paintballs, while they may look round coming out of the barrel, will distort slightly, even if not visibile to the human eye, thus affecting accuracy, breakage etc. Granted a good LP setup will do this less, however it will still distort the ball. Things like 2 stage barrel's, porting etc will definately lessen the distortion, but moving something with the aerodynamic properties of say, a brick, is not going to be absolutely perfect.

As to the comarison to a Porsche 4cyl and Toyota 4cy, 22R/22RE toyota will outrun a porsche 4cyl any day of the week.

Having owned 3 4cyl porsches and friends w/ 4cyl yotas, you were guaranteed to have the yota start on a regular basis. Porsches are great cars, but they need to stick with flat6's, prefrably of the turbo variety, as those are the only ones worth the franchise name.

[Kamotz]

I think all of the intelligent arguments in this thread have been exausted. Now the posters hard set in their hype based opinions will futily continue to argue until this thread turns to a flame war, and gets locked. If you have something intelligent to say, it will only fall on deaf ears now.

[impy-bushy]

i agree with what u say but what i sai aint hype it is an actual test i read it on a werbsite when i was deciding on a impy and a cocker soooooo.. my test aint hype it is truth, but i do agree with what u said Kamotz :eyes:

[Super 3]

Not that any of this really matters b/c even if you found out without a shadow of a doubt that X marker with X barrel shooting X brand of paint shot the farthest and the most accurately would it really matter. I wouldn't go out and purchase it and neither would most of you b/c you tweak the set up you have to give you the best whatever you want from it to match your style of play.

[firemoth]

A Spyder and an Autococker:

Shoot them with the SAME barrel, N2, pressure, regulator, and paint.

They will shoot exactly the same.

A ball travaling 300 FPS out of any gun will go the exact same distance as long as it doesn't curve.

Accuracy is determined by paint/barrel match.

Think about this:
Two different cars, going 60 MPH, is one going faster? NO!

[impy-bushy]

yer an idiot. period - a cocker has flat trajectery a spyder dont. end of story:pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

[Codestar20]

impy-bushy...Calm down on the flaming, we don't want this thread closed because of people who are ignorant. Firemoth is right. If they have the same fps, barrel, paint, n2, reg and same psi (granted you need a good spyder setup to go below 300psi) and everything, they will shoot the same distance. I like firemoth's car analogy. It is something you need to think about. How does a cocker have flatter trajectory if they both come out of the same barrel and barrel length and same fps? Give me some facts on how you know that.

[FactsOfLife]

Oh bloody hell, here we go. Accuracy and range are two different things. Accuracy, the ability to hit the same spot with a minimum of standard deviation is not the same thing as range, or distance.

If the speed of the ball is the same from two differently operating markers, say one open bolt, the other closed, the distance or range is going to be THE SAME. Spin is an intersting variable, but think about this, if a ball comes out of the barrel at the same speed and the same angle, if it doesn't have top or bottom spin, it's going to travel TAH DAAAAAH, the SAME distance. It just does it in a curve and not a straight line. Now granted, most of us aren't shooting the daylights out of the other side off a sandbagged rest with a 1500 Oehler Chronograph. This is where all the VARIABLES come in. Just standing there shooting the markers offhand, for comparison isn't a valid test. At all. Putting the marker into a solid rest and eliminating as many of the environmental impacts such as wind, motion, trigger squeeze etc etc, is the ONLY way to determine the accuracy and or range of any given setup. Want an interesting read, if I say so myself, read this thread:

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43733 .

Gravity, (remember that law?) FORCES an object in motion to be attracted to the object with the greatest mass, in this case the Earth. You can NOT repeal this law. It's a frigging GIVEN people. The only way you can achieve different range is by changing one or more of the variables that make up trajectory. And the last time I checked there were only two variables that counted, speed and time. And since speed is a function of time, you pretty much aren't going to be able to say "well this gun shoots farther because it's a closed bolt".

Angle doesn't count, since we're assuming you've fired the ball at the optimum angle of 45 degrees right? No wind, same ball weight, in theory, same speed and guess what? From a 1500 dollar cocker, or a hundred dollar spyder, both balls are going to hit the ground after travelling the SAME distance. It's just simple physics.

I've seen the data, it's conclusive. The only people that don't want to accept it are the ones that have a particular flag to wave.

If you want to know my bona fides, pm me, I love to talk at length about myself. It's my favorite subject.....:D

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by impy-bushy
yer an idiot. period - a cocker has flat trajectery a spyder dont. end of story:pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

I rest my case. Your honor please dismiss the jury with my thanks.

[Trunnion]

i'm not going to read this whole thread because quite frankly, i don't need to in order to understand the arguements. the fact of the matter is that all guns have the same range when they have equivalent muzzle velocities. that's simple physics, you cannot change it. ask your physics teacher/professor. if two guns shoot projectiles moving the same speed out of the muzzle at the same angle, both projectiles will hit the ground at the same time. accuracy is entirely different. this is influenced by the shooter and the match of a paintball to the bore size of the barrel. honing effects the ball's travel to a minimal degree, but for the most part will just slow it down and require more gas to achieve a nominal velocity. any barrel is as accurate as another as long as the paint fits well. this is the theory behind the freak system. as far as consistancy goes, there are differences between guns. but that's not to say that even an entry level marker can't have good consistancy

[stray bullet]

Hello Infil,
From what I have noticed the optimum "low" pressure is no higher than 220 psi. My friend has a Shocker that shoots at 280fps @ 180psi. He can out shoot, distance wise, me with my Raptor, AA barrel 500psi @ 290's fps. The issue is not rate of fire on the Shocker but accuracy and that @#^! Distance. I know because I've been on the receiving end of three ball burst hits. Last week our group, 15 of us, took on a neighboring city team, 33 of them. They all complained about our low-pressure setups and that we could out shoot them on distance. To sum it up we walked all over them. It wasn’t just better equipment but the team- work.
To add another tangent on this thread how about the extra volume of LP. If the extra volume of gas coming out of the barrel along with the ball envelopes the ball. I will call this a cushion. Could this cushion create an aerodynamic environment for the better ball flight? This could also give to the ported barrel theory.

[impy-bushy]

How bout this there are to sides to this argument and niether of the sides are gonna change there minds so what si the point in arguing people are gonna think what they want to it dont matter what anyone else says.:eek:

- the end:eyes:

[FactsOfLife]

so you're saying then that there are two sides to every physics law and we should just take the one we like right?:rolleyes:

[impy-bushy]

Noooo im saying that people are gonna believe what they wnat it wont matter what other people say therefore there is no point in fighting cuz no one is gonna change there minds.:D

[DasBaldDog]

Logic is all well and good.

Yes, 2 cars each going 60 mph travel the same distance.

Here's another one for you.

My car drives 75 miles per hour........ (I know.... yippie, eh?)
My friend's ultralight plane FLIES at 75 miles per hour.......

Therefore, if we turn off our engines at the same time, who is gonna go further?

The theory that spin does affect a ball is proved by the tippmann flatline.

Now that effect can be both good and bad.

The reason why an autococker, Shocker, Matrix...... are so PRECISE (I didn't say accurate), as being able to put one shot EXACTLY where the last one went (or atleast close to it), is the logic that if there is NO spin on the ball...... all the forces acting upon it will be exactly the same. I have done NUMEROUS tests each showing that some guns are inherently more precise than others, not because of some magical force but because of the processes involved during the firing cycle.


Remember......no gun is accurate, only a person is. A gun can only be precise.

[Slug]

finally a non biased answer that i actually believe (i think)
THx das blad dog

[littlejerry]

This is so funny, people think 2 balls going the same speed at the same angle with the same weight will have different range. You people who claim that cocker have better range than spyders ever think how this is possible? Its not, its an illusion!!!! You think they have better range cuz they have better accuracy!!!! They can hit you from further away because their balls dont go flyin all over the place like in cheap little rental guns! I have a piranha with stock barrel, it shoots the same distance as cockers with bommys!!!! they just have tighter shot groupings than i do and that is why it "appears" for them to have better range!!! some of you need to go back to 9th grade and take physical science again. You are sayin that gravity wont pull down one ball more than the other! Remember the rule that all things fall at the same speed? Guess what, they still fall at the same speed even during forward motion! 2 balls flying at the same speed will have the exact same range!!!

[Slug]

wait a minute then a cocker would have more range cause if the balls shot out of spyders and tippys curve to the side before a cocker shot does then the cocker's shot will go farther.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by stray bullet
explain why I don't have to elevate my Armson Stealth barrel nearly as much as my All American.

I can explain it;

You're crazy

I have an armson stealth, it shoots no further than the stock barrel on my spyder did

[DasBaldDog]

Littlejerry....... then explain the Tippmann Flatline.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by DasBaldDog
Littlejerry....... then explain the Tippmann Flatline.

the Tippman Flatline puts backspin on the paintball, much like a golf ball. This back spins causes the air moving around the ball to give it some lift. Ever shoot one? Tip your gun a bit to the side and you can put some serious curve on the shot. I thought it might make a good sniper set up or backplayer setup but other than that I don't think they're much good for general play.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Slug
wait a minute then a cocker would have more range cause if the balls shot out of spyders and tippys curve to the side before a cocker shot does then the cocker's shot will go farther.

If you're shooting two identical balls at the same speed, even if one has curved, it will still travel the same DISTANCE. It just does so in a curved path. Take that curve, strighten it out, and the distance traveled is going to be the same. Now, that isn't going to help you if the guy you're trying to light up is straight ahead of you.

[GutShot]

Just to clarify here, as mentioned above the marker that shoots straighter balls does not have more range. What it does have is a greater effective range, since the marker that shoots curve balls is only really effective until the paintball significantly veers off course.

[StealthElephant]

So basically the thread isn't about range or accuracy, but consistency. All guns DO shoot the same distance and have the same accuracy, but as stated before, some guns are more precise. The way that each gun is built changes the consistency of the gun. The internals of a pump gun or an autococker are much different then that of s m98c or spyder.

Ideally, if there is no resistance or outside forces, they will shoot the same. However due to the way the internals work in a high-end marker, it will shoot more consistently then a low-end marker. Consistency = accuracy. Thus while both guns are capable of equal accuracy, high-end guns are in the end more accuracte. Accuracy also factors in range, because the fastest way to any given point is a straight line, thus since consistency = accuracy, then accuracy = range. Thus an Autococker on a regular basis, will shoot more Accurately, and slightly farther on average. That doesn't mean that all markers in PRINCIPLE don't have the same range/accuracy, but that on average performance shows that high-end guns outperform low-end guns, and that is why high-end guns are high-end guns. Does that make sense?

[Ganf]

I've seen several interesting subjects touched upon in this thread, now I'm going to say my part on a couple I saw completely misrepresented..

Unlike most of you, I can say I know this as a fact, I'm not insulting your intelligence, but I've studied physics for 6 years, I'm still studying physics.

First I shall note on the first real topic that had influence, Rifling. I don't need physics to explain this, just some simple math.

6000 RPM's isn't that much, think about this. A 30-06 Hunting Rifle has a barrel that is rifled so that the bullet spins 1 and a half times before it exits. Average length, 24-26 inches of barrel. The bullet flies exactly, with a 180 grain load, 3120 feet per second.

So we've got 1 and a half spins every 2 feet, multiplied by 3120 feet per second, multiplied by 60 to make it a minute. That comes out to... TADA! exactly 140,400 RPM's.

Now we hear. "Yeah ganf but that's a friggin' rifle, paintball guns only shoot at 300FPS." Okay, now take a 12 inch barrel for a paintball gun, most 12 inch barrels I've seen for paintball guns that are rifled give 1 half of a turn. Half a turn at 300 FPS, makes 150 turns per second, multiplied by 60. Comes out to 9000 RPM's.

*shrugs* You decide.

NEXT we have the arguement that Two guns with the same barrels, and same paint, will fire the same distance. This is true to some extent. But there's many more factors. Consistency blah blah that's been beaten to death, I'm talking about what goes on in the loading chamber. This paintball is being smacked by a piece of steel easily moving at 60 MPH, most likely much more. This is given the spyder/cocker scenario. Now in the loading chamber that ball is bouncing no doubt along the top and bottom of the loading chamber, doubly so if the air is expulsed before the ball is at the entrance of the barrel. Not a big concern? That's energy, and the center of the paintball isn't solid, so it has the ability to store alot of that energy. Now just hold that thought, in order for it to make sense on how it effects things I must explain something else.

While the ball is traveling through that barrel it is in no way an easy ride. It's accelerating at an insane rate, and that fact that it isn't a solid piece of material makes it so that this has many effects. First of all shift in the center of gravity. When an object is accelerated or decelerated at a rapid pace the center of gravity shifts forward or backward, up or down depending on where the force is being applied. Apply force at a fast rate, and the center of gravity shifts dramatically for that period in time such as the force is being applied and the object is still accelerating or decelerating. I experiment alot with my markers, they're just so fascinating seeing as my first love is physics. But I also play seriously, so I have a good paint to barrel match. Most of the rounds can be blown through my barrel with a small puff, and the occasional few would roll down. Yet I fired a few into some light grass and picked them up to check for, yes, deformities. I was quite fascinated to find that 1 out of four turned out egg-shaped after traveling through the barrel. REALLY egg shaped, this is caused by the shift in the center of gravity. The material, the paint, is so unstable that the center of gravity shifts to the very back of the paintball, forming a welt.

Now back to the loading chamber scenario. That paint is being sloshed around like there's no tomorrow already, and then the center of gravity shifts so violently as to be capable of doing this? That is all energy that hasn't been released yet, and once the paintball is out of the barrel, and stops accelerating and starts decelerating, that energy starts to be released at a more rapid pace, the loading chamber scenario's factors are extremely small, but not the energy gained during acceleration in the barrel. This can be related to incidents where the ball curves, up down left right, that's the direction the majority of the energy the paint stored is being released.

"But Ganf, if you're right wouldn't the energy be released directly forward?"

Ah, but then the shell comes into play. We've ignored it this entire time but it is still a big factor. Fact is no matter how hard you try, your paintball is gonna be spinning every time, and with a really smooth barrel like we see in most paintball barrels, and a good paint to barrel match that spin can be different every time. Now the shell contains the paint of course, but when the point comes that the ball stops accelerating there's a state of neutrality. This doesn't last longer than a few feet, depending on your velocity, and this can vary also on the paint. Now the shell, during this state of neutrality is still spinning, and the paint still has it's energy stored, and the shell causes more fricton than the paint, and in this state of neutrality the effect of earths gravity is minimal, so the shells spin changes the direction that the energy stored in the paint is released, because the paint momentarily begins to spin with the shell.

Now the effect of the loading chamber was next to non existant up to this point, the direction in which the paint was last traveling before entering the barrel effects the direction in which the energy is released when the ball starts to decelerate. So IN THE END the theory that 2 guns firing at the same FPS, with the same barrels and air equipment that they will fire the same distance isn't entirely true. But to how much? You could probably see differences in distance from 1-5 feet at most. Accuracy is an entirely different matter, this effects it monumentally. You'll never see the same accuracy in any two guns because yes, the internals play a part. The loading chamber, how the ball enters the barrel, the expulsion of the air, the TEMPERATURE of the materials involved even.

Fact is you'll never see the same performance of two guns of the SAME TYPE. CnC machine milling is pretty accurate, but there's always going to be slight inefficiencies and mistakes that the other marker may or may not have. For electronics guns their boards come into play too. Every internal electronic clock has ineficiencies of at least .2 to .7 nanoseconds. The ONLY electronic timing device that is more accurate than this is a caesium clock. Is your gun nuclear powered? Most likely it isn't. .2 nanoseconds isn't going to be noticeable? It adds up, just like the inefficiencies in cockers and spyders.

We can all go on for weeks about which is better, more accurate, or has more range. But fact is fact, there is no replacing skill, and small differences like this, definitely aren't a substitute.


If I can get my toy rebel deluxe that I bought to purposely mutilate and torment to my hearts content to hit the same spot within 2 centimeters from 125 yards away, 15 shots in a row, Five tests in a row, Surely some of you can play with your magnificent pieces of machinery and get them to perform better. I may not be able to carry my rebel deluxe on the field by myself. But I fixed the inefficiencies, just like you can.

[Lavahead]

The problem with this argument is that you are trying to apply rules that can only be verified with certainty in a controlled, a.k.a. theoretical, environment to the real world. In a perfectly controlled world, where the air was motionless and all the same pressure, and the paintballs were all perfectly round and smooth and the same size, and the barrels were smooth and had no imperfections, then yes, every shot at the same velocity would go the same distance, because the balls would do the same thing in every barrel, every time. As we don't play paintball in that world, things are going to vary. More expensive barrels are generally made to meet tighter standards, meaning less variance. Paintballs are not perfect, meaning each one will act differently. Air temperature, pressure, wind speeds, any number of things can affect perceived accuracy and range in our real world tests. The reason high-end gear seems to perform better is because it is made to a higher level of workmanship. The closer your equipment gets to the theoretical ideal of conditions, the closer you will get to having similar results. High-end barrels and markers will perform with better accuracy, range and consistency because they are built to be as close to this ideal as possible, thus cutting down on the amount of uncontrollable variables as much as possible. So while it is true that two paintballs traveling at the same speed should go the same distance, a bad barrel can induce spin or ball damage that may increase or decrease that range, whereas a good barrel probably would not. Now everyone should be happy.

[Slug]

I may not be able to carry my rebel deluxe on the field by myself. But I fixed the inefficiencies, just like you can.


lol lol is that supposed to mean that you tweaked it so much you cant even lift it.


oh by the way in my earlier posts i did confuse effective range with range.

[FactsOfLife]

GANF,

good points but I have to wonder about the comparison between firearm rifling with mechanical lockup due to lands and grooves, and the paintball barrel that only uses rifling in a perforated air release sort of way. Other than the Tippman Flatline, paintball barrels, no matter what the pattern of perforations is, do not impart a noticable or consistent spin on the ball. I've watched paintballs come out of a rifled perforation barrel with the high speed video camera I borrowed from work. It just ain't there. Would be nice if someone could figure that out. Backspin is good for distance, but real roational spin a la rifling would be interesting to say the least with the liquid filled paintball. Oughta make for some interesting dynamics....

[StealthElephant]

You can't "truly" rifle a sphere...you can try to replicate a rifling effect, but it just doesn't work the same as a bullet. There's so much more power behind a bullet anyways it's just plain stupid to compare the two.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by StealthElephant
You can't "truly" rifle a sphere...you can try to replicate a rifling effect, but it just doesn't work the same as a bullet. There's so much more power behind a bullet anyways it's just plain stupid to compare the two.

Haven't played with black powder before have ya? Patched round balls are exactly that, round balls. BB guns are the same way. They're rifled exactly the same way a full size rifle is. Has nothing to do with the "power" behind the projectile. It's the amount of spin imparted to the object by mechanical rifling. You could make a rifled barrel shoot paintballs, not exactly sure how much rifling twist, or if the ball would hold together under the rotationsal stress from centripetal force. Probably fly apart the instant it left the barrel if you had too much spin on it. You'd probably have to slow the spin way down to something like 1:66 or better to give it enough stbility without ripping it apart. To say that comparing the two is stupid, well, that's just stupid. Comparing and contrasting two similar effects isn't stupid, it's interesting as hell.

[StealthElephant]

It kinda is, because you even said that the force would probably tear the paintball apart. A sphere isn't going gain near what a bullet gains from rifling. It just doesn't, the effective range of a paintball gun is like an old musket, cause it's a ball, I'm sure you watch baseball, you can drop the bottom out of that sucker because it's a ball. The inconsistency of the paintball, combined with it's shape, and materials, limits what you can do with it. Until a new kind of paint is invented to take advantage, I doubt rifling is gonna do anything major, now a paintbullet...that sounds....painfully fun

[GutShot]

Actually I hear from my friends in law enforcement that they train with paint bullets that fire from an actual gun. It's probably best that paintball never go that direction though, unless we really want people thinking that the sport is akin to shooting people.

[Codestar20]

Those paintbullets are called simunition. My brother is a sheriff in California and they use that for training. They fly very fast though. They will pierce bare skin. They use special chest pads and other things to protect them.