Expansion Chamber?????????????

[MURSE]

I was looking at adding an expansion chamber to my A5 EGrip. Do they make a difference? Is it worth it ($60)? Thanks Guys!

[Coenen]

$60 for an expansion chamber? Ouch!

You will hear a lot of opinions on how much difference an X-chamber makes; however, I can never remember an X-chamber that anyone thought made $60 worth of difference for any gun. For that sort of money you could get a regulator and be way ahead performance wise, or you'd be about half way to a nice HPA tank.

[MURSE]

can you tell a difference between hpa and co2? would does a regulator do for the gun?

[Coenen]

can you tell a difference between hpa and co2? would does a regulator do for the gun?Yes, the difference between CO2 and HPA is substantive. HPA is cleaner and not susceptible to pressure changes brought on by fluctuations in ambient temperature.

A regulator is a device that steps down a variable input pressure to a consistent output pressure. For example; an HPA tank is filled to an internal pressure of 4500psi, if you ran 4500psi directly into your marker it'd blow apart. As such, an HPA tank has a regulator on the front to step down the internal pressure to a useful pressure, often in the 750-800psi range.

CO2 on the other hand remains at a constant pressure while it is compressed. The front end of a CO2 tank is only a pin valve that allows gas to flow directly from the tank into the marker. CO2 is liquefied under pressure, this phase change is what chills your tanks when they are filled or emptied quickly. The CO2 must switch from being a liquid slush to a gas. This reaction requires heat to take place. The warmer the ambient temperature around the tank the more quickly and energetically the phase change takes place. This phenomenon also leads to the internal pressure of the CO2 tank fluctuating fairly widely. On a 70-75* day CO2 will sit in the low to mid 800psi range, on an 85-90* day it may be in excess of 950psi, on a 40* day the pressure may drop to below 700psi. Hence why you have to chronograph your marker every day at the field. In the dead of winter you might never get it to shoot above 250fps, but on a hot day in August you might have trouble keeping it under 300fps.

A regulator, added to the marker in place of an expansion chamber will regulate most of the instability out of CO2, so instead of ambient temperature fluctuations leading to potentially unsafe velocity issues the marker stays set relatively close to the original velocity set by the user.

What does that mean for you? The biggest benefit of a regulator, or HPA setup is going to be shot to shot velocity consistency. Consistent velocity shot to shot means that the balls will travel on consistently similar trajectories, leading to a more consistent point of impact on the other end of the shot. Or, in layman's terms, a tighter grouping and more accuracy.

You've probably shot a gun or two over a chronograph with CO2, especially if it was warm outside, that string was probably like this; 285, 295, 280, 295, 275. Obviously a ball fired at 275fps isn't going to follow the same flight path as a ball fired at 295fps. With a quality regulator or HPA setup that same string might work out at; 285, 283, 287, 285, 282. Clearly those balls are going to land in a tighter group. Hence the benefit of investing in either a regulator or HPA.

It'll still be up to you to decide which path is correct, or whether or not you want to mess with it at all, but that's the basic gist of it all. Your brain hurt a little yet?

[Orpackrat]

Yes, the difference between CO2 and HPA is substantive. HPA is cleaner

I would have to say that Co2 is cleaner :laugh:.

[Coenen]

It depends I guess, I'm not sure how many fields out there are filling food grade CO2 out of those old steel tanks though. Then again, I've never had anyone try and sell me on needing a filter screen for HPA. Granted, the days of getting anything nasty out of a bulk tank are largely behind us.

[Corrupted355]

First thing's first: one question mark at a time, please.

Now, on to the replies you've had. As usual, Coenen not only beat me to the punch, but is right on the money. And this may be the second time in history that I've ever disagreed with Packrat. But I guess it is subjective to where you get your gasses. I doubt you're getting food-grade CO2 at a paintball field, but you're probably not getting SCUBA-quality air either. That being said, I think people take a lot more care of tanks intended to carry HPA or nitrogen, because they need to be able to hold 5,000 psi indefinitely. CO2 tanks only need to hold 1,300 maximum. I've been around my fair share of guys working with high pressure tanked gasses, and believe me, what's in the tank has a lot to do with how gently they handle it. High pressure hydrogen gets a whole lot of respect because it's both explosively flammable and held at extreme pressure. CO2 tanks get kicked around, not only because of the relatively low pressure, but also because it's chemically inert (for the most part).

[Orpackrat]

I don't want to start a big argument over which is cleaner, I really don't care. I've run Co2 for about 10 years about 3/4 million paintballs and countless dry fires, opening up the valve and all, its still nice and clean. HPA will probably have the same results. That being said, I don't really like Co2 being called a "dirty" gas and HPA being "cleaner". To me, they are basically the same.

[AmbushOrigin]

Id like to have one of the Co2 trucks that deliver daily to my work place for paintball use. Run like a 1000 ft remote from that tanker.. oh yeah.

[Coenen]

I've never really thought of it as "dirty" literally, but in terms of the required liquid/gas phase change as well as it's propensity to freeze things and cause condensation where condensation has no business being I feel that, in a way, CO2 is a dirty gas.

Certainly it is significantly more harsh on the marker's seals and inner workings.

[Jason R]

I ran a reg on my A5.I ran it into the Tombstone.Then again that was before I knew about the grip regs.I just didnt like how close the reg ran to the front grip.made it very unconfrotable and unwieldly.
But regs help a ton.Just gotta firgure out where you wanna mount it.

[Coenen]

Usually moving the front grip (whether that be a reg or X-chamber etc.) and trigger frame closer together improves the handling on a paintball gun...very interesting.

[MURSE]

Someone mentioned something about a regulator for CO2 ... where can I get one and what's the $ OR is it better to have an x-chamber? Thanks guys for all the input. I would put the money into HPA if I had it ... but, just started paintballing.

[Coenen]

Why not just save up? A quality 68ci/4500psi High Output HPA system will be around $150 brand new. If you've already got $60 saved for an X-chamber you'd already be 1/3 of the way to that tank. In my mind it's one of those items that worth the upfront expenditure. Assuming you have readily accessible fills for it, it's pretty much a one time deal and it'll work on whatever gun you shoot from here on out.

-Anyway, I digress...-
I don't know if you can still buy WGP Ergo Regulators straight up, but they used to run about $60 and could handle CO2. I'm pretty sure that the newer Bob Long regs won't eat CO2, but if you find and older one (likely used) it'll work. Palmer's Stabilizer is pretty much the gold standard for CO2 compatible (some might say all) regs, you'd be looking at right around $100 for a new, Male Stabilizer to buy it, bring it to your door and install it. That is IF you install directly into your A-5's Tombstone adapter and choose not to spend the money on adding a separate vertical adapter.

For any reg that ISN'T the Stabilizer it'd probably be wise to also purchase an anti-siphon kit for your tank and have it professionally installed. That'll set you back maybe $20 or so.

Having said all of that...are you interested in this stuff because you feel like your gun has a legitimate deficiency in performance, or because we're throwing a lot of big words and numbers out there? Truthfully, none of this stuff is really "need-it" type gear. "Shiny Kit Syndrome" is very real in the paintball community, and a lot of us get it real bad when we start out. We see something cool that we can bolt on to our gun that allegedly helps performance and we rush out and buy it...regardless of whether or not we were happy with what we had in the first place. There's a lot to be said for just being happy with what you've got and leaving most of this crap to other people.

[MURSE]

Lots of good points, thanks Coenen. About that 68ci/4500 ... any idea how many balls that'll shoot? I know every gun is different, but a decent ball park would work. And I shouldn't need an expansion chamber with HPA, right? Thanks again!

[Coenen]

A full 4500psi fill will get you about 1000 balls out of an A-5. The Tippmann valve and the A-5 in particular are not terribly efficient; many other guns will shoot almost a case worth of paint off of a full 68/45.

HPA is a plug and play deal, buy the tank, fill it and screw it in. Just make sure to get a high-output tank and you'll be good to go. After that it's just a matter of keeping track of your hydro date and making sure to get the tank re-certified every 3 or 5 years.

[MURSE]

Any way to make the A5 more air efficient? What about 3000psi HPA tanks? I don't know what the real difference between the 3000 and 4500 is. I have a friend that fills his 3000 tanks off his scuba tank.

[Corrupted355]

3000 psi tanks aren't worth it. Many of them are made of steel and are quite heavy for their size. 4500 psi tanks are made of aluminum wrapped in fiber and resin, which makes them much lighter. I used to have a PMI 48/3000 steel tank that weighed exactly the same as my Crossfire 88/4500. The Crossfire held three times as many shots as the PMI, but because of the construction, they weighed the same.

Some folks will argue that most fields have all-day-air, and the size and capacity of the tank is negligible, but what happens is you get stuck in a long game where you need more than a couple hundred rounds? Or if you want to go to a big Scenario game? I feel that 68/45 is the minimum tank size for all new players. After you figure out how you want to play, then you can go pick the size tank that caters to your preferred style of play.

[MURSE]

Do you have to be more delicate with fiber wrapped tanks versus the all metal body tanks, I will mostly be playing woodsball and prolly going to be a little rougher on it. Soooo, 88/4500 how many balls can you get out of that?

[Coenen]

Some folks will argue that most fields have all-day-air, and the size and capacity of the tank is negligible.That's me! Then again it's been a while since I shot anything that wasn't either an Ego, Intimidator or pump which sort of skews one's opinion on tank size towards 'smallest thing I can get away with for one game.'

You don't have to be especially delicate with either variety of tank; however, it would be wise to purchase a cover for your tank, E-bay is usually the best place to find them. A lot of stores put "last year's" or discontinued gear on E-bay, and since a tank cover will pretty much always be a tank cover, snagging one there for a deep discount is the way to go.

Hehe, oh, the notion that woodsball is tougher on gear than speedball...trust me, tournament level paintball is plenty rough on equipment. Anyway, as long as you are using your tank as directed and not as a hammer or shovel etc. you should be just fine.

An 88/4500 tank should be giving you somewhere in the neighborhood of 1350-1450 shots per fill. That's just an extrapolation on my part, Corrupted will know for sure since it's his tank and gun.

[MURSE]

As far as the different HPA tanks makers ... are they all the same? i.e.; Gorilla Air, Crossfire, Pure Energy, etc... It would probably in my best interest to by a larger tank considering where I go there is nowhere close to refill tanks.

[Jason R]

Shiny Kit Syndrome????? Whats that? I never caught that!!

Ok I did.I admit to it.I bought a ton of junk for my A5.Flatline,reg LP kit,all the mods for the cyclone feed grenade launcher sights...I admit i went overboard..

As for the reasoning on why my A5 got funky was because A) it was a cinderblock to carry around B)the reg left like a quarter inch gap so my hand had to wrap around the reg and forehandle.I liked the forehandle because to me it was confy but the reg just made it hard to use

The tank thing,Tank covers are a major plus.For me I was always paranoid of scratching my tank deeply and ruining it.But thats just me;-)

Now if I remember right,red regs are high pressure and blue regs are low pressure

[Coenen]

We all get it at one point or another, the difference maker is how long it takes you to shake it off! Yes, red = HP, Blue = LP.

MURSE, Crossfire is the way to go. Their quality control and performance makes them the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Ninja seems to be a good performer as well. PMI's Pure Energy tanks have always been solid, and maybe a little better than their long time rep as sort of a 2nd rate tank would indicate. Guerrilla Air's stuff seems sort of hit or miss, I had a Myth reg for a while that I really liked and had no issues with at all, some people had the exact opposite experience.

[Jason R]

What of NitroDuck? I didnt have any issues with mine but that was a lil tank.I went to my Crossfire and It was the only tank i used.

I like HPA cause its more stable.sability is a big plus for me and I think tis a plus for anyone

[MURSE]

Any good places to buy Crossfire on the net? I saw some deals on their website for older stuff they were trying to get rid of. I would prolly need the high pressure HPA due to the cyclone feed, is that right? I heard that without out a pressure of 800psi the cyclone stops feeding.

[Coenen]

As we've mentioned a time or two in this thread, yes, you need high-output. It's not just for the Cyclone, the entire gun won't cycle properly without high enough pressure.

The prices on Crossfire systems are usually pretty standard. The prices I quoted were from Compulsivepaintball.com, I've gone through them for several orders and have been happy with their selection, speed of shipping and overall service. Zephyrpaintball.com isn't bad either. PBgear.com (ActionVillage) is pretty good as well.

They will probably all be pushing the newer short regged Crossfire systems, unless they happen to have a few of the older tanks on close-out. The refurb tanks on Crossfire's site look to be pretty solid deals, it sounds like they're going to have the older style long regs though, you might want to contact them and ask about that before ordering.

[MURSE]

Going back to a question earlier ... I didn't know if there was a way to make the A5 more air efficient without compromising the performance? Thanks!

[Coenen]

Nothing really significant. Given the valve design of a Tippmann, there's just not a lot of change that can be affected efficiency wise.

You can gain a little bit with a regulator simply because you'd be using it to control velocity via operating pressure. The lower the pressure the smaller the amount of air expended per shot. However, you still have to keep pressure up to a point to keep the Cyclone running effectively as well.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are somethings you can do, but nothing really worth spending money on.

[MURSE]

Gotcha ... thanks Coenen

[Corrupted355]

I'm gonna expand a little on Coenen's "lower pressure, less air expendature" comment, but IMO, it's almost financially irresponsible.

JCS sells a power tube that eliminates the FVA screw. You'd need to get this power tube, a regulator, and a spring kit.

See, the way a traditional Tippmann (ie: not the Phenom) regulates it's velocity wastes a buttload of air, because it relies on the idea of turbulence slowing down a fixed volume of air. Near as makes no difference, a Tippmann will release the same amount of air pushing a paintball at 200 fps as it will at 350 fps. This is because Tippmanns release a large quantity of air that could normally propell a ball in great excess of 300 fps, and then slows it down before it hits the paintball. If the marker would shoot 350 fps with the FVA all the way out, and you want to shoot 280, that's 70 fps of waste velocity.

The idea behind the parts list above is to make the valve only release as much air as you need to propel a ball at your desired velocity. If you eliminate the excess velocity, you eliminate a lot of waste. I did something similar to my own A-5 long ago, and I saw an increase of up to 250 or so shots over the course of a 20 oz CO2 tank that normally would have only given about a thousand rounds.

Mainly this comes down to dropping the input pressure to the valve. A typical CO2 tank puts out anywhere from 850 to 1300 psig, depending on the temperature. When you drop the input pressure to the marker down to 650 psig or below (I found mine to work ideally at about 625 psig, but each one's a little different), you make a measurable impact on the amount of air that the valve outputs. Also, through the use of the regulator, your velocities will be much more consistent than they would with straight CO2 and the turbulant velocity screw system. The major concern here is that you cannot run a R/T without modifying that system as well.

That being said, you're probably better off buying a marker that already does all this than trying to modify a Tippmann. The reason is not only cost, but sometimes it requires some finiky tuning with the spring pressure. It can also display a very narrow set of circumstances where it operates ideally, leading to the marker coming "out of tune" if you're not careful. This last scenario is unlikely, but some markers do get finiky when you mess with them too much.

[Coenen]

I'm gonna expand a little on Coenen's "lower pressure, less air expendature" comment, but IMO, it's almost financially You feel better now that you finally got to throw a wall of text out there? You're just lucky I had a busy afternoon, or I'd have probably preempted you all over again. :P

[Corrupted355]

You feel better now that you finally got to throw a wall of text out there?
Yes. Yes I do. Thank you for being busy. I feel so useful now.