closed bolt

[dawgs712]

i used to know what this meant-how is the closed bolt on the coker dif from normal open bolts?

[ry_goody]

Closed bolt means that when the gas is released the bolt is held firmly in a close position, so all the gas goes down the barrel, which is alot better for numerous reasons like efficiency, quietness, accuracy. Unlike open bolt where the gas is being released while the bolt is closing.

[dawgs712]

thanks.

[Watupi]

In a open bolt marker, the bolt rests in its furthest position back. When your fire the marker, the bolt moves forward, pushing the ball that was resting in the breech. When it reaches its msot forward position, the bolt stops and air is directed from the bolt and down the barrel. Then, the bolt moves back into its resting position, and another ball falls into the breech.

In a closed bolt. The bolt rests at its furthest position forward. When the marker is fired, the air moves out of the bolt and down the barrel. Once fired, the bolt then moves back to its furthest positon back, allowing a ball to fall into the breech. When the ball is resting in the breech, the bolt moves forward to its resting place, pushing the ball into the barrel.

The only difference between the two is the resting position of the bolt. There is no advantage in accuracy, range, ect.

[Mad Ogre]

There is an advantage to a closed bolt marker...
Watupi will argue the point to his "dye"ing last breath - but the fact remains. I'm sure working in a "shop" has given him some experience... but I have experience too.
I've been playing paintball since the SPLATMASTER was state of the art, and I have military and law enforcement experience with many differnt types of arms from open bolt to closed bolt to no bolt...
The ball is out of the barrel before the bolt starts moving.
The reciprocating mass of the bolt can throw off your accuracy.
What do snipers use in the military? Bolt Action rifles. The Snipers partner called a "Spotter" will pack a very accurate semi auto like an M-24 system... his job is to call the shots and help cover the sniper. When it comes down to making that one single accurate cold barrel shot - the sniper makes that with the bolt gun. Why? Its more accurate. Same thing with paintball.
Sure there are automatic sniper rifles - such as the MSG-90 and PSG-1 by HK... but those are hella expensive and still can not produce as tight a group as a bolt gun... but with those guns there is a trade off for the increased firepower that an autoloading action gives you.

Played my paintball this morning... I got tagged by the most incredible shot... Guy has a WGP Sniper II with a Dye Stainless barrel It had to be 50 yards through dense foliage. You had to have seen it to have known how tough that shot was. I seriously dont think ANY other marker could have done that. My Boomsticked Cocker? MAYBE. But that guy was making shots like that one pretty consistantly.

Closed bolts are more accurate by nature... Now, I am not saying that an open bolt can not be accurate - sure they can be very accurate... WARPIG published an article where this was evidently "tested". But WARPIG's test was junk science and only proved that the two guns had similar accuracy in those conditions.

Further testing with a bigger selection of paint and in different conditions could have altered those results easily.

[Edited by Mad Ogre on 05-12-2001 at 06:35 PM]

[Watupi]

No, I wont argue with you. Im right, you can believe whatever you want. If you think a closed bolt has a range advantage over an open bolt, then by god, think that. Thinking it doesnt make it true.

And the firearms example doesnt count. Firearm mechanics are so different from pneumatic marker mechanics that its not even worth the effort required to argue about it.

And Warpigs test wasnt a "junk" test. Im sure if they had said that there was an accuracy difference, you wouldnt even think about calling it a "junk" test. They didnt compare the accuracy of two guns, they compared the accuracy of one gun while it was and open bolt to when they converted it to a closed bolt.


Further testing with a bigger selection of paint and in different conditions could have altered those results easily.


I bet.

One last thing, it doesnt matter how long you have been playing. You either know what youre talking about, or you dont. You seem to fit into the latter catagory.

[Watupi]

Originally posted by Mad Ogre

I'm sure working in a "shop" has given him some experience...


Yeah, that would be my shop. Or would you rather me refer to it as a Paintball Field and Supply Store?

And yeah, I get a little experience there seeing as how Im the only licensed airsmith between here and Dallas and I deal with these issues, and people like you, every day.

But what the hell, youve been playing since
the SPLATMASTER was state of the art
That obviously proves me wrong and you right.

[ry_goody]

Ok mags and cocker have pretty much the same accuracy, but closed is naturally more accurate. If you were to somehow manage to get a mag and a cocker to give a blast of gas that are exactly the same in length and pressure, have the same exact paintball go down the same exact barrel, the cocker will be more accurate no matter how small the different is because of closed bolt. Don't care what ignorant people say, but it's all physics which no matter what some guy says or advertisement says, you can't defy physics. Also, watupi, in open bolt like a spyder or mag, the bolt doesn't close, fire the gas and open, the gas is released while the bolt is closing, in the very last nanoseconds of the bolts path forward is when it is released. If you don't believe me, take a cocker and take a mag, pull the trigger and a little gas will spurt up the elbow on the mag, on the cocker it won't (unless incorectly timed).

[Mad Ogre]

Watupi - You must be pretty weak to get hostile when someone doesn't agree with your opinion.

Okay everybody - Watupi is the "paintball god" and knows everything and we can only humbly agree to everything he says!

There - you happy now, Git?

Your opinion is based on the fact that as a shop owner you want to make sales... So of course those cheap blowbacks are just as good! Especially the more expensive cheap blowbacks!
Gotta protect your sales dont you?
I bet if an Autococker was only 199 you'ld be singing a different tune!





[Edited by Mad Ogre on 05-13-2001 at 12:31 PM]

[Creek]

Well store owners,players who ever have there beliefs. If you talk to the people that invented these markers you'd hear diffrent things also.
So it comes down too what you want too or seeing is beliveing.

[Mad Ogre]

Creek - thats a response I can totally accept.

[Watupi]

Hey, believe what you want. Believing that something is true doesnt make it true.

And actually, Orge, I would rather closed botl makers have more range than open bolt. That way, I would sell more Cockers.

I also agree with Creek on the seeing is believing theory. Im not taking the word of a manufacterer when I say that there isnt a difference. Im not saying that in the voice of a store owner wanting to rip people off. Im saying that as a player and airsmith that has tested and seen the results countless times. Who you choose to believe is up to you.

[dawgs712]

And actually, Orge, I would rather closed botl makers have more range than open bolt.


what? explain that please...

[Mad Ogre]

Range? Now Blowbacks have better range?
You just devalued all your previous posts...

[Watupi]

Originally posted by dawgs712
And actually, Orge, I would rather closed bolt makers have more range than open bolts.


what? explain that please...

I would rather closed bolt markers have more range (and/or accuracy) that open bolt markers. That way, I would sell many more closed bolt markers than I do.

Understand?

Range? Now Blowbacks have better range?
Did I ever say that? No. I cant understand why you seem to have a problem reading.

No marker has a range advantage over another if they are at the same velocity. I never said one did. I did, however, say I would rather closed bolt markers have better range (and accuracy if you want to add that in there) than open bolt markers. That way, I would be able to sell the more expensive closed bolt markers.

This was a response to your immature accusation that I say closed bolt markers dont have an inherent advantage over open bolt markers only to boost the sale of blowbacks in my store.

Im sorry if I used the word "range" instead of "accuracy". Most people that argue about this subject also believe closed bolt markers have a range advantage over open bolts, along with an accuracy advantage. Ive just argued on this subject so much that the two seem to go hand in hand.

You just devalued all your previous posts...
I see, so your blatant lies that have flooded youre previous posts have value? Sure.

[Mad Ogre]

Where?
Admittedly - maybe I misread that post... I'll give you that... but I have not lied about anything here.

Again - You just cant stand people disagreeing with you...

If you think I lied about who I am - read my webpage, biatch.

[Edited by Mad Ogre on 05-13-2001 at 08:22 PM]

[Watupi]

Originally posted by Mad Ogre
Where?

Anywhere you said that closed bolt operation has an advantage over open bolt operation. Thats a lie.

Admittedly - maybe I misread that post... I'll give you that...

Yeah, you misread it. Thats okay, not your fault. No worries.

but I have not lied about anything here.

And again, a lie.

Again - You just cant stand people disagreeing with you...

Again - I dont care what you, or anyone else here, cares to believe. I just dont like people spreading myths like you seem to be doing.

If you think I lied about who I am - read my webpage, biatch.

Lied about who you are? What?

You must be talking about your

I have military and law enforcement experience with many differnt types of arms

thing. Thats fine. Ive got enough experiece in firearms and airsmithing to know that the two are only vaguely related. biatch.

[ry_goody]

Alright, if your not gonna believe that closed bolt is better accuracy wise than it is certainly better efficiency wise. When all the gas is going to propel the ball you don't lose gas out of the elbow like on blowbacks.

[Mad Ogre]

Oh Man! That is some freaking nerve... You don't even know me and your questioning my backround?
I am not some 13 year old with a big mouth - yeah I have a big mouth - but I can back up everything I say. 11B Ft. Benning GA, if that means anything to you. 1987 Harmony Church training area of Ft Benning. Does Infantry Training Center mean anything to you? I was also an ARM instructor at Malone 18 there at Benning.
Enough of my resume - Those who know Military know that what I have posted right there is enough to mean that I know more than you do with your little shop and field.
Big wupti do - you have a field... So did I. I leased 500 acres from the BLM and had a blast with it.

I bet you dont even know where Benning is or what BLM is...
Take your time looking it up... I recomend google.com for good search engine.

I was one of the guys that secured the airport in Panama during Operation Just Cause... so you can look that up to.
Biatch.

[Edited by Mad Ogre on 05-14-2001 at 12:24 PM]

[Mad Ogre]

Oh - My Law Enforcement Training? Sorry - forgot to mention that. Colorado Northwestern's Police Academy. Its a small school in the northwestern area of Colorado in a little town named Rangely. Small school - but one of the tops in police training as it also cross instructs cadets for NPS law enforcement. I graduated only 6 points from the top of my class there. I would have done better had I not torn my rotor cuff in my shoulder during arrest control training - but I did lead the class at the pistol range. I took the highest score in that section while shooting a S&W model 10 .38 with a 2 inch barrel. (I had some nice big fat rubber target grips on it... chrome plated, nice little piece that I wish I still had...)

Anyways, that should just about do it. Any questions?

[Watupi]

Who pissed in your Wheaties?

Please point out where I said that you where really
some 13 year old with a big mouth

I never did, and I never though you were.

If you tell me you
have military and law enforcement experience
Im not going to question you.

Your military background doesnt even relate to this disccussion. Like I already said, Ive got enough experiece in firearms and airsmithing to know that the two are only vaguely related. Bolt position does have advantages in firearms, but not in pneumatic markers. So, that idea is mute.

Calm down and stop accusing me of saying things I didnt.

[Watupi]

Biatch.

[ry_goody]

ALIRGHT, stop the argueing, your both acting like little kids. Watupi, your right by saying there isn't a difference in accuracy between closed and open. Mad ogre, your right on closed bolt being naturally more accurate. Your never gonna convince each other so shush!

[Mad Ogre]

I could only assume that by you calling me a liar about my background that you though me a foolish youngster with a big mouth and big imagination. I was just in agreement about the big mouth part...

Now that we are level on that point - I submit for the discussion that the two are similar to the point of relevance.
The quintessential blow back gun is the M3 "Grease Gun". This is an SMG of industrial stamped sheetmetal and pins. Chambered for .45ACP and given to infantry officers, tankers, paratroopers and others of a REMF nature. The gun was only marginally accurate because the bolt would begin cycling while the paintball was still in the barrel - Just like most blowback paintball markers. This was an issue with some folks. I forget who did this next part - I'ld have to look it up, but a company (I think Springfield Armory) took some M3 and changed the internals to give it a delay (called LOCK in the gun industry). They used a Gas system similar to what is used in the HK P7. The gas pressure holds the bolt shut until the bullet leaves the barrel - then the action would cycle.
Upon firing these modified M3s there was no noticable differnce other than it felt "More Comfortable" while firing. When they started firing these guns for accuracy they noticed that the shot groups were reduced 50%.
The Army didn't think this improvment merited adoption so the modification program was dropped like a hot brick.
Now, paintball markers are more like SMGs than other types of firearms so I think they are related...

(Yes, I know that paintballs have more in common with waterballoons than bullets - thats besides the point right now - I'm talking hardware here and not the "ammo")

Closed bolt markers, because they cycle after the ball is out of the barrel (Okay - maybe not on all closed bolt markers, but thats the way my Autococker is and I am sure that other are the same way) are naturally more accurate than closed bolt markers for the same reasons that The above history lecture illustrated. I'm not saying that a open bolt gun can not be accurate - there are several accurate open bolt guns out there. The Uzi for example... (Yes an Uzi is a very accurate piece if you know how to use it)

Take all this for what its worth -
This is one of those huge debates that will be going on for ever... Just like the Autococker-Automag debate, the 9mm VS .45 debate, or the AR vs AK debate.
It all boils down to what your most comfy with.
(Cocker, .45, and AK btw...) :D

[Mad Ogre]

Okay Okay... I'm shushing... :D

[Watupi]

Firearms and airguns are so distantly related that the two arent worth comparing. I can quote Pamler as saying that the only relation between the two is that they both have triggers, and they both propel objects out of a said barrel. But, from your point of view, Glenn obviously has no idea what he is talking about, either.

Now, you obviously know more about firearms than I do. But, certain things that may benefit accuracy in firearms do not benefit accuracy in pneumatic markers. Bolt position just happens to be one of these things.

Okay Okay... I'm shushing...

I am, too.

[dawgs712]

i cannot close a thread as i am not a mod, but i as the starter of this thread would like to say thanks for the input, and please no more flaming. you each said your piece (believe me you did) and now you are bothe shushing..good...ahh doesnt that feel better

[Mad Ogre]

Watupi - You remind me of my Brother... Stubborn and Bull Headed and wrong... but I like him a lot. They are more alike than you think... and my example is valid. They both have a reciprocating mass dont they? Some even have rifling.
Did you know that during the Nepolean Wars snipers from Austria used airpowered rifles to snipe at his troops from long range? True. (Closed Bolt air guns :D ) In fact these airgunners irked him off so much he ordered that any man captured with an airgun be put to death. Just a little more history for you...


You and I have got to play sometime - if your ever in Utah, bring one of your accurate blowbacks. :D

I am now bowing out if this debate... See ya!

[Edited by Mad Ogre on 05-15-2001 at 12:05 AM]

[Watupi]

Im sorry, you dont remind me of one specific person. You just fall in with the rest of the blind and ignorant that stumble into my shop.

[Mad Ogre]

Judas Priest you can't let something go can you...
What a Jackhole Wanker!
Your wrong, and your ignorant. I'm very pleased you own your own little shop so you can have your own little kingdom that you can rule... Because a slackjawed snailskulled drooling meatslapper like yourself wouldnt last long anywhere else other than in your own store, or on the internet where your safe behind your IP curtains.
It seems mechanical physics are lost on a Git like yourself.

Sod Off.

[Watupi]

Listen man, you can call me all the names you want. That doesnt change anything. Youre still wrong.

Ive seen the results. Ive had lengthy talks with several designers. What was proven? There is no difference. Ive been dealing with things like this for longer than you have. How do I know? Well, you think that closed bolt operation has an advantage over open bolt operation.

You keep on talking about my "own little kingdom". I am in no way better than you. But, by the things youve said here, I do know more about airsmithing than you. Why do I? Because its my job.

You can be a smartass. You can tell me Im wrong and ignorant. But, truth is, youre wrong, and anyone with much experience here can agree with me. I hope to god I meet up with you someday so that I can prove this to you. But, until then, keep on believing what you want.

If youre ever in southern Okiehomie, come to Ardmore. Ill be at Splatters Paintball on 707 Grand Avenue. Pretty good sized building with an indoor speedball course, shouldnt be too hard to spot.

[Watupi]

Originally posted by Mad Ogre
Judas Priest you can't let something go can you...



You hypocritical *******!

[Mad Ogre]

I was going to say "Okiehomie, that explains it."
But now I'm too tired of trading shots with you. Verbally at least. If I do go out to Okie and entered your store - and challenged the Owner to a paintball "Duel"... Just make certain you dont fill your hopper with Gobstoppers, Okay?

[Watupi]

Oklahoma. Yeah, that explains it all. As you know, all of us out here are inbred farmboys. Youre not helping yourself out any by critizing where I live. Have you ever even been to Oklahoma? I doubt it.

You can challenge me to a "duel". Im actually more worried that you would fill your hopper with Gobstoppers, but whatever. And I wasnt challenging you when I asked you to stop by the shop. I was thinking more along the lines of showing you that there isnt an accuracy difference between closed bolt operation and open bolt operation. But, we can jump outback on the speedball field for a quickie if you want.

I wasnt going to respond, but that ignorant remark about Oklahoma got on my bad side.

[Mad Ogre]

Oh come on - I'm in UTAH... pot calling kettle over here...
No - Okie is fine... and yeah, I have been there.
Ft Polk for a little while.

[Mad Ogre]

Oh - wait - Polk is in LA...

I forget which... We flew into Vance, that I remember for sure.

SILL! - It was Ft. Sill... Man, that was some years ago...

[Wicked_Vengence]

To jump into the chaos here, I do have to agree that close bolt designs are more accurate. Waputi, I do agree with you that for an air flow perspective, the close bolt design doesn't offer any real improvement over an open bolt. There have been a number of tests that prove that point over the years. The problem with those tests is that they typically secure the gun to avoid human error. The accuracy comes from the way and the TIME that the gun cycles at. The autococker (about 80% of the A/C owners that I speak with agree) has a more balanced and drawn out cycle time compared to other guns. This means that the gun when firing, provides a more stable firing platform, hence the additional accuracy.
One question I do have to support my theory. Tourny players being notorious for seeking ANY advantage, still mainly use Cockers (At Skyball, approx 48%). Why would they use a gun that doesn't fire as fast as, say an Angel or Bushy? I believe that if you ask most cocker owners, the response would be accuracy. Just a thought....

[Creek]

and the beat goes on

[dawgs712]

i was pondering this for a while and i thought, unless you mess up the timing and the bolt comes back too fast, is it possible to chop a ball ina cocker? since it is closed bolt, other than timing you dont control how fast the bolt returns right?

[Mad Ogre]

Yes - its possible... but it doesnt happen very often...

Stability is essential to shooting and having that bolt slam back and forth will throw off your stability. This is where a closed bolt marker has the edge.
This is also the same reason most tourny players do not use remote-lines as the bottle tucked into the shoulder anchors the gun giving it added stability. The more stable the platform, the more accurate the shooting. Same thing goes for locking a blow back into a vice... you'll be more accurate with it - hence WarPig's test shows no difference.
Sharpshooters when they want to make an accurate shot, fire from a sitting or prone position to stabalize as much as possible...

(I'm not debating - just giving information)

[dawgs712]

not debating..sure..lol