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View Full Version : Solonoid problem and Warrenty


FOM
05-09-2002, 10:24 PM
First a little history…

A couple of months ago, we started getting some very odd problems. On first look the symptoms we were seeing SEEMED to be “board problems” some of the thinks we saw included… Solenoid would not fire but manual button would fire. Dwell would have no effect on velocity—that is I might get 300 fps regardless of the dwell setting (at a given pressure). Gun would work perfectly, shut it off, and suddenly the gun would not work at all. Wide swings in velocity—maybe 50 fps from high to low-even thought everything else appeared to work just fine. Now all of these scream “Bad Board” to me, but we would swap boards out—in some cases overnight new boards to customers at our cost ( so they could use the gun for the weekend) —only to have the board switch NOT cure the problem.

At some point, we finally found that replacing the solenoid “cured” the problems. Frankly we send a lot of new solenoids to customers to cure the problem—many of which we never got the “bad” solenoid back for. Of course we spent a LOT of time on the phone with Smart Parts about this. We found that replacing the ram (and its spring) was the “cure”. At some point shortly after, we found that simply clipping the spring was a very easy “work around” to cure the symptoms.

A couple of important points—first this was BEFORE the first cricket board hit the market. Second this was something that happened suddenly to guns that had been working perfectly. In fact we had to replace the ram in 3 of the TEAM GUNS at Skyball (between games). And I will assure your that the team guns were tested and tuned by some of the best techs in the country before and during Skyball.

At Skyball, between Johnny, Walt, and myself, we replaced at least 15 ram/spring assemblies. Almost all of these were guns sold by other dealers- but because of our very visible “Smart Parts” presence, folks came to use to look for help. In fact Tony, who was doing the Smart Parts teching at Skyball, got to the point that he just reached into his box and pulled out another ram every time we saw Walt walk toward him!

Since then we have continued to replace assembly, but have found a “work around”(clipping the spring) that is simple enough for most to do on their own.

We continue to gets calls and e-mails on this every day. This is not a problem isolated to a few guns, or one type of gun. We have many “stock” Impulses we have repaired this on, many of our own customs, and customs made by other dealers. ( yes we fix ANY Impulse brought to us under warranty- it does not matter if it was purchased from us or not- we feel Warranty is warranty-no matter who sold the original gun.

When we get a call…

As you might guess, we get a LOT of calls asking us to “tech” guns over the phone. After the normal questions are out of the way (did you try a NEW battery…) and our “best guess” is that there is a solenoid problem, We offer several options. Of course the gun can be sent to us, and we will fix it for free. The only costs to the customer will be the shipping.

OR…

If the customer is comfortable dissembling their gun, we are happy to talk them thru the “work around’ of clipping the spring. This has nothing to do with our not having time to do the repair, frankly we can do the repair much faster then we can teach someone over the phone how to do it, But it has everything to do with giving the customers with a little bit more experience the option of spending 15 minuets to fix the problem and avoiding having to send the gun back (and be without it!)

OR…

If the customer is NOT comfortable disassembling the Solenoid, but is comfortable with simply replacing it with a new one. We give the option of our sending out a new solenoid for the customer to install, and then will credit the customer (for the full amount) of the solenoid when they return the “bad” solenoid to us.

The key here is that at some point we need to have the “bad” solenoid so we can rebuild it (or have Smart Parts replace it)

There are some very important points to remember here. This problem simply doesn’t show up in testing most of the time. An outside supplier makes these solenoids. They go thru that supplier’s testing before shipping to Smart Parts. Smart Parts installs them in guns, and test fires the gun a large number of times. If it one of our guns (Rat or normal Impulse), We also set up and test the gun. The gun that leaves out store will normally have in the neighborhood of 500 shots (about 100 with paint), above the Smart Parts testing, before we ship it. Because of the recent history with this problem, we even go one step further. Because this problem often seems to happen to a gun that is working perfectly, gets turned off, and when turned back on doesn’t work, we have added a “final step to our process. Basically after the gun has been setup and tested by the tech, we let it “rest” until the next morning and another person will test fire it more before packing and shipping.

If the customer returns the gun for service, of course we fix it for free and return it to the customer as quickly as possible. If the customer requests we send them a new solenoid, we will pull a brand new solenoid , charge it out (the solenoid is a $80 item) and as soon as the bad solenoid is returned to us, we run a credit for the full amount of the solenoid. If the customer wants to try to save some time and do it himself, we will “talk them thru it”. If something gets screwed up, or if it doesn’t cure the problem, we simply have them send the gun with all the parts back to us, and we repair the problem at no charge.

But please realize that “warranty” is not the same as “insurance”. Lets say you had one of our rats. After using it for a game you decided the freak barrel had something wrong with it. Of course we would fix or replace that barrel under the warranty. But if you sent the barrel back to us, and somehow that barrel got lost in shipping, we would not send you another barrel for free. We can only fix or replace something if we get it back.

I have recently had a problem just like this. The Customer sent a defective part back to us for repair/replacement. The only thing we got was a normal #10 paper envelope with a wire from the solenoid in it and a letter asking us to send out a new/rebuilt solenoid. I would not consider a normal #10 envelope a suitable method of sending parts for repair/replacement. Unfoutaintly there was no insurance on the package (If the customer had tried to insure it, I’m sure the post office would have insisted the customer use a more suitable packaging) The only option I could offer was to send a new solenoid at dealer cost ($50) instead of the retail price of $80.

FOM

Team BackDraft
05-09-2002, 11:03 PM
FOM, I have a question for you. This is about the problems you have been having with the solenoids.

On my Freak Factory Impulse, I can't get it to shoot 290 fps when running under 180 psi. The lowest I can get my gun when changing the dwell is 265 fps. I would like my gun to run ar 160psi. Does this sound like the problem you have encountered? I have had some problems with it in the past and every time, we have swapped out the vision board to fix it but it just sometimes wont cure the problem. Should I try a new soleniod?

Tempest261
05-10-2002, 01:57 AM
(If the customer had tried to insure it, I’m sure the post office would have insisted the customer use a more suitable packaging)

I actually handed it to a post office employee. The guy didn't say a word about it- just weighted it and took my money to send it off. Never said a word about insurance or anything- that thought never came across my mind- it was finals week and there were a lot of things going through my head.

While I appologize for blowing up earlier, you have to understand my main point in this whole issue:

I recieved my $850 RAT in a broken state. It was bad out of the box. You guys sold me a $850 paper weight, which I understand actually happens from time to time, and I was extremely understanding and cooperative with you guys in trying to get it fixed myself (since you guys are so busy).

The part where I blew up was where you guys wanted me to pay another $50 to get my gun to work, right after you sold it to me. This made me extremely perplexed and rather angry. Now, I know, the fact that the post office destroyed it is considered MY fault, but my point is that what I should have gotten in the mail initially from you guys is a working RAT. I should have never had to send off the solenoid, because it should have worked. And of course, as we all know, that never happened.

This is what I recommend for you guys. When we get down to it, this solenoid issue YOUR problem. You shouldn't make it your customer's. It should be between you and SP. You need to work out a deal with SP to get a spare batch of WORKING solenoids to SEND IMMEDIATELY to customers with new guns that die after a few shots out of the box, and that you can clearly diagnose a solenoid problem. This is what I wanted, and I bought a RAT so I could deal with you guys, not SP, because I thought you guys would handle issues like this differently, but you proved me wrong.

Believe it or not, after telling the SP techs my whole story about the dead new RAT and the response I got from you guys, they're actually going to help me out. Go figure.

wolverine
05-10-2002, 04:20 AM
Tempest261 - I have read every thread from you about this topic and as far as I can tell, you have positioned yourself in a corner and are pointing the finger at EPBO and not accepting ANY other thoughts of reason.

Yes your Rat arrived and was not working. At that time the solution was to send it in, which is common practice OR try to fix it yourself which you attempted. At this point, it's not your fault and it's not EPBO's fault. Right now it's just an unfortunate situation. You were even offered a new solenoid at this time but YOU chose not to get one and to try and fix it yourself.

THEN you shipped the non-functional solenoid to EBPO, or atleast tried. Had you packaged it correctly and/or insured it this conversation would not be taking place because you would have received your replacement solenoid by now. BUT since there was a problem at the post office YOU ARE responsible for your neglegance.

Here is an extreme but simple analogy, you do not junk a new car when it gets a flat tire. You get the tire fixed. BUT if the tire repair is under warantee, you MUST follow the manufacturers warantee policy to get a replacement. They will not ship a new tire to your house.

EBPO has a policy for reparing solenoids and YOU are not happy that the policy does not include just shipping you a new part.

You have commented that you are going to return the RAT and get a different custom Imp.....remember it's a solenoid problem, not a RAT problem so this same thing could happen again.

It sounds like you got someone at Smart Parts to offer you some assistance. I think that is good and hope all works out for you in the end.

Try to look at this as a learning experience and think to yourself, "what could I have done differently to have this situation work out differently in the end?"

Tempest261
05-10-2002, 05:20 AM
oh yeah I agree completely that it was stupid of me to package it that way. I was in a hurry, and the postal employee checked it out, so it seemed OK.

But if they were going to send me a new 'noid earlier anyway, I don't see why they couldn't send me one now. I chose to try to fix it myself to help them out, and FOM made it sound easy, which it was- until the problem started to happen again.

Hell, look at the pictures thread, and look at my comments above. I loved those guys.

But as for the overall analogy of "junking the whole thing" if one part is bad- I don't see how that makes any sense. Sure, if I sent in the whole RAT and the thing got lost in the mail, that makes sense, but I sent in just a part- a part that they were going to replace anyway.

But of course arguing with you about this is pointless. You were fortunate enough to get a working gun, and we obviously have different opinions on how EPBO should have handled it. The rest of my team and pretty much everyone I play paintball with were pretty suprised with how EPBO handled this, and the ones who were thinking about getting Rats definately have changed their minds.

Tempest261
05-10-2002, 05:28 AM
Oh and just a recommendation to EPBO:

next time this happens to a customer, for God's sake- if you're not willing to send a new solenoid, just send the customer a new plunger (or "ram" as you refer to it). Save them some grief.

Killer Kat
05-10-2002, 06:16 AM
Ok! This kindda reminds me of the old saying were "The driver beats the horse to pull the stuck wagon out of the mud, But it was the drive that steered the wagon into it! Enough said, I've sent you a pm Tempest. This thread is now closed!