E-bolt - Is It Worth It? [Archive]

pollacjw

06-18-2002, 08:27 AM

No on the e bolt.

First off, preformance improvements are limited on a "entry level" marker. Eventually you will get as much performance out of the marker that is physically possible. On an entry-level gun this happens fairly quickly. Don’t buy the hype.

And to the gentleman that asked what is a high quality marker performs like, do you even know why you want LP or are you just hopping on the lp bandwagon? And no i would not call sub 300 psi good, that’s crap lets be honest here.

Let me explain a little about LP. Take an impulse for example, with an impulse, the pressure is around 180 to 200, and with an lpr set up it can go lower. The reason you want this lp, is because with the reg, (its the second reg) you don’t get as much fps change as pressure changes when firing. They only way entry level guns can can get better efficiency is if you: polish the internals, change some of your springs and use a lighter bolt (no venturei), use a less ported barrel, and lastly use a second reg. That’s all you got, the rest is hype.

Only in true electros, can lp improve efficiency by isolating the air source. By giving both the valve and the solenoid its own source, the bolt can operate at a lower pressure, saving gas. When adjusted properly, this increases efficiency. None of this affects you because your custom or 98 doesn’t have this kind of design. Do not try to say that lp will effect chopping. Because until you get a very low pressure 60-80 psi you are going to chop balls (if you have a very light bolt then you could go higher). Not to mention that as you go lp, your recharge rates goes sky high. Just so every one knows lp does not transform a markers to a better set up. LP is a marketing ploy!

Entry-level guns have physical limitations- do not buy into the idea that you can buy your way out. And even if you could, why not just get a high quality marker to begin with?

And no, +/- 4, is not what I call high end. +/- 1 or 2 yeah that’s high performance, but four is just ok.

As for your trigger, I cant say until I shoot it, but I assume its fine.

Don’t buy an ebolt, unless of course you have more fun moding you gun than just getting a new one. Hell, I have two stock guns that I like playing with and have spent a few 100 upgrading, but I am not going to lie to myself and say its a "high end maker"

I suggest you don’t go with the cocker. Why go on technology that is a decade old. Again, don’t buy the hype. If you want a nice electro for cheep, get a Tribal. Otherwise take your time and try a few markers out, see what you like.

ZolDrummer

06-18-2002, 09:03 AM

I finally got around to testing the E-Bolt vs. an Autococker.... Sadly, I'm still undecided. Here are the pros and cons to each one...

E-Bolt
Pros.
- Good rate of fire, nice selection of modes
- I found it for a low price
- Zero ball breaks

Cons
- Rather loud when using the stock barrel (which I don't, btw.)
- Trigger pull is kind of hard (I'm really picky about this)
- Blowback of the gun

Autococker (stock)
Pros
- Quiet
- Easy trigger pull
- Very little blowback (You can barely feel it when you fire)
- Easier to field strip than a 98C

Cons
- The paint I was using was too large (this can easily be fixed)
- Can't fire as fast (vs. E-Bolt)
- A bunch of ball breaks (maybe because of paint)

This is a very basic list that I put together. I could go into much more detail, but, honestly, I'm just too lazy. Remember, too, that I was using a used Autococker, so it may not have been performing at top notch.

pollacjw

06-18-2002, 09:21 AM

Dude why are you asking this anymore-
you know the opinions of the people here, and if your looking for their rubber stamp of approval then you have larger problems that the marker your shooting. More importantly you know which marker you liked better. So stop making crap excuses, and decide.

ZolDrummer

06-18-2002, 10:06 AM

What do you mean "crap excuses"?? I put the factor of money into the choices. I can justg barely afford the E-Bolt and an electronic hopper, and then I'm broke... I liked the Cocker better, but i dont have enough money.... I dont know whether to save up or buy the E-Bolt. that was my main problem... I was just posting that for the other guy (NcicHit) who asked how my test results went

Meph

06-18-2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by pollacjw
No on the e bolt.
And you're entitled to your opinion.

First off, preformance improvements are limited on a "entry level" marker. Eventually you will get as much performance out of the marker that is physically possible. On an entry-level gun this happens fairly quickly. Don’t buy the hype.
Okay, it's limited to having a single-ram, single-solenoid design of a Bushmaster electro design actually. Though I'm sure you know this! So how is converting a blowback into a true electro-pneumatic gun limited to only "entry level"?

And to the gentleman that asked what is a high quality marker performs like, do you even know why you want LP or are you just hopping on the lp bandwagon? And no i would not call sub 300 psi good, that’s crap lets be honest here.
No, of course not! I don't know anything, or so you try and make it seem!
I've already commented if not here, then in the past that low pressure's main squeeze is for brittle paint. And to use hellfire effectively without danger of breaking it in the chamber, sub-300psi is NECESSARY.
Otherwise, I agree. LP is indeed a lot of hype/fad, like LCD screens are also a fad. However, a properly tuned gun CAN (not all, though) be a little more efficient when operating LP.

Let me explain a little about LP. Take an impulse for example, with an impulse, the pressure is around 180 to 200, and with an lpr set up it can go lower. The reason you want this lp, is because with the reg, (its the second reg) you don’t get as much fps change as pressure changes when firing. They only way entry level guns can can get better efficiency is if you: polish the internals, change some of your springs and use a lighter bolt (no venturei), use a less ported barrel, and lastly use a second reg. That’s all you got, the rest is hype.
Okay, but I can take an autococker as well. Stock they are 800psi. I guarantee you that I can install a SS valve/pin combo with the 99+ models. With that, I can lower the pressure AND make an autococker more efficient. And with the autococker's design overall, it's a pretty consistent gun that usually doesn't have any dropoff either.
So what is your point?

Only in true electros, can lp improve efficiency by isolating the air source. By giving both the valve and the solenoid its own source, the bolt can operate at a lower pressure, saving gas. When adjusted properly, this increases efficiency. None of this affects you because your custom or 98 doesn’t have this kind of design. Do not try to say that lp will effect chopping. Because until you get a very low pressure 60-80 psi you are going to chop balls (if you have a very light bolt then you could go higher). Not to mention that as you go lp, your recharge rates goes sky high. Just so every one knows lp does not transform a markers to a better set up. LP is a marketing ploy!
Shows how little you actually know about this.
What in the world do you think the E-bolt does? Do you even know what an E-bolt is?

I'll explain. The E-bolt replaces the hammer, trigger assembly (minus the trigger itself), guide pin, drive spring, and endcap. In their place goes a chip, a single solenoid, and LP reg for the solenoid.
So what does this all mean? Oh, maybe it means this... Only in true electros, can lp improve efficiency by isolating the air source. By giving both the valve and the solenoid its own source...

That's right speedy, you JUST explained the E-bolt! Haha, what irony.
There indeed ARE two gas sources. One for the CVX valve, and one for the E-bolt solenoid. So please tell me where this is not a true electro!

Entry-level guns have physical limitations- do not buy into the idea that you can buy your way out. And even if you could, why not just get a high quality marker to begin with?
You don't know as much as you think you do (no offense). Otherwise you'd realize that it's more than just gun performance. But the gun itself. The weight, balance, and feel of a gun.
You don't know this yet, you're young. I'll teach you young padawan!

The majority of all one's skill with a gun comes with the person. The gun is just an extention of one's own body, as I see it. And knowledge of the gun is more important than consistency and lack of dropoff.
To pull the trigger and KNOW where that paintball is going to hit is more important.
The feel of the gun in a certain individuals' hands, and the balance of that gun. These things are a lot more important than a .25mm trigger pull, or 20bps.

One of these days this might sink into your head and you might learn something. You have yet to believe nothing but hype yourself on your high horse.
___________

Now for limitations. Must I again post how my Tippmann has overcome these limitations that people like you seem to not realize aren't even there? If I have to, I will. But I'm getting tired of having to post them over and over for people who don't learn anything.

And no, +/- 4, is not what I call high end. +/- 1 or 2 yeah that’s high performance, but four is just ok.
Oh, okay. Since I have a gun that shoots only 2fps difference, it's not "high end." Yeah, my bad. Those entire 2fps make a HUGE difference, don't they? Yeah, 4fps flux isn't even CLOSE to consistent! That is only "just okay!"What was I thinking? Somebody smack me, I should've known better. That wasn't even close to being a consistent gun!
[note: I hope you can tell sarcasm, since NO gun is ALWAYS at +/- 1fps. Every single gun out there will eventually have a 274fps and a 278fps shot. I have yet to see or shoot a single Matrix, Angel, Shocker, Intimidator, or anything that will shoot +/- 1fps. You can name any gun, and if I take that to a chronograph and take about 20 shots, I can guarantee you 100 dollars the velocity flux will NOT be +/- 1]

As for your trigger, I cant say until I shoot it, but I assume its fine.

Don’t buy an ebolt, unless of course you have more fun moding you gun than just getting a new one. Hell, I have two stock guns that I like playing with and have spent a few 100 upgrading, but I am not going to lie to myself and say its a "high end maker"
The only reason there is even a term "high end" is because of people like you who make these invisible limitations. And hide behind them to think that a Tippmann, or a Kingman, or a Sheridan gun is impossible of performing at a "high end" level.

I suggest you don’t go with the cocker. Why go on technology that is a decade old. Again, don’t buy the hype. If you want a nice electro for cheep, get a Tribal. Otherwise take your time and try a few markers out, see what you like.
Why? Because it's proven it's quality over time.
I take it you own a Tippmann, or not? Well guess what, their in-line design is almost TWO decades old. 17 years, and still being used today. From SMG-60 in 1986 all the way to the A-5 in 2003, it's the same in-line design.

I mean what is wrong with autocockers? Yes they're not newbie guns. They take time and general pneumatic knowledge. But once you get the hang of it, it's like the back of your hand.
[note: I'm only talking about the general idea. I myself don't like the feel or trigger of cockers, which is why I don't own one]

PolicarStudios

06-18-2002, 12:33 PM

saying an electro m98 will outperform ANY autococker. wow, that's a little extreme i'd say. otherwise NO ONE would buy an autococker.....

but the e-bolt is a real electro set up so that is very good, still i think that unless your field lets you play full auto it's a waste of money. you'll get a few bps more in semi mode than normally and that's not worth that much money.

btw, autocockers can fire really fast in semi mode with a hinge trigger, but i tried a hinge and it was hard to get used to. i couldn't stop short stroking, which was probably why the cocker you tried chopped so much.

everyone here is a tippmann fanboy and though they do have some good points, be aware of that

pollacjw

06-18-2002, 08:51 PM

First, I don’t frequent this page often so I don’t know what has been said prior to this thread. Secondly, I have 2 tippmans. I digress.

Meph, i did not try to make you look ignorant, you did that buy yourself. I merely asked you to support your statement concerning what a high end marker is.

And we agree that for the most part LP is a fad- yeah for us.

You said: "Okay, but I can take an autococker as well. Stock they are 800psi. I guarantee you that I can install a SS valve/pin combo with the 99+ models. With that, I can lower the pressure AND make an autococker more efficient. And with the autococker's design overall, it's a pretty consistent gun that usually doesn't have any drop-off either.
So what is your point?"

When I commented about LP mods i was referring to spyders and tippmans (entry level markers), not cockers (crappy high end markers IMO). In spyders and tips, the bolt striker mass determines the flow and pressure that the marker will have. (if you want to see how read this: http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61455&highlight=spring
Cockers are just more glorified pumps that heavily depend on valve timing to do just about the same thing as a spyder. The one thing that a cocker can do is significantly lower the pressure by changing the mass of the valve, its springs K value, and the pin, best of all it can do this without the trigger and recharge problems that a spyder or tip would face. Secondly, a Cocker has a second reg stock! So no doubt, it will be more consistent than another marker without a reg. I was pointing out that most high-end LP setup are primarily based on the reg concept. Simply, that a change in pressure in the tank output can be dampened so that it has a lesser affect on fps. By making the operating pressure even lower the reg can dampen fluctuation even further. Secondly, the only options that a non-electro, non-cocker has is to do some minor mods to the internals, and they wont do much for performance

On to your E- bolt lies. As I stated, true electros (not semis with e grip frames), such as Impulses originally do not have separate air sources. The valve and the solenoid are operated at the same pressure. HENCE THE NEED FOR AN ISO MOD!!!!! This is what the LPR mod does. It isolates the air coming in and splits it. The solenoid gets its own air source, and can be operated at a desired range, and the valve can be cranked up and this improves efficiency.

From what I have read about E bolts, they have the same air source, not an no iso mods are available. I have emailed Tippman, I will post their reply when I get it. If my contention is correct, than the valve and the noid operate at the same pressure. And that means your not going to get the efficiency boosts that other markers can. If I am wrong, then, I apologize. Chalk it up to a love of engineering, and a hot head.

Your right +/- 4 is consistent, but not compared to a nice set up, and that is the point, if your looking for the best, then tolerances are small. And in my book, high end is just that.

No high end was not crated by people like me, rather by better designs. Take cars for example. A M-5 (BMW) is a nice car. My Saturn is a nice car. Is there a difference between the two cars? Can you spot the high end car. Physical limitations are not invisible. If you do not want to accept that different designs have different effects on performance, that’s something you need to deal with.

And, no cockers aren’t proven overtime- they have had years of superstition that made them legends. When I started playing, I was told all sorts of myths about cockers. But today we all know they cant shoot farther, or straighter, and by no means faster. Basically, they are yesterday’s marker.

Lastly, there is no doubt in my mind that the quality of player has more to do with skill than the marker, but get real man- a sweet marker doesn’t hurt.

PolicarStudios

06-18-2002, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by pollacjw
I can take an autococker as well. Stock they are 800psi.

If by 800psi you mean 250-350psi then you're right.

Meph

06-18-2002, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by pollacjw
First, I don’t frequent this page often so I don’t know what has been said prior to this thread. Secondly, I have 2 tippmans. I digress.
I thought you would have a Tippmann. I don't know why, just a hunch

Meph, i did not try to make you look ignorant, you did that buy yourself. I merely asked you to support your statement concerning what a high end marker is.
What did I say that makes me sound ignorant? I have yet to post anything that isn't based on facts. Just curious.

And we agree that for the most part LP is a fad- yeah for us.

When I commented about LP mods i was referring to spyders and tippmans (entry level markers), not cockers (crappy high end markers IMO). In spyders and tips, the bolt striker mass determines the flow and pressure that the marker will have. (if you want to see how read this: http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61455&highlight=spring
Cockers are just more glorified pumps that heavily depend on valve timing to do just about the same thing as a spyder. The one thing that a cocker can do is significantly lower the pressure by changing the mass of the valve, its springs K value, and the pin, best of all it can do this without the trigger and recharge problems that a spyder or tip would face. Secondly, a Cocker has a second reg stock! So no doubt, it will be more consistent than another marker without a reg. I was pointing out that most high-end LP setup are primarily based on the reg concept. Simply, that a change in pressure in the tank output can be dampened so that it has a lesser affect on fps. By making the operating pressure even lower the reg can dampen fluctuation even further. Secondly, the only options that a non-electro, non-cocker has is to do some minor mods to the internals, and they wont do much for performance
So, and these LP mods won't do much to the performance of an electro, either. Again, what is your point?

On to your E- bolt lies. As I stated, true electros (not semis with e grip frames), such as Impulses originally do not have separate air sources. The valve and the solenoid are operated at the same pressure. HENCE THE NEED FOR AN ISO MOD!!!!! This is what the LPR mod does. It isolates the air coming in and splits it. The solenoid gets its own air source, and can be operated at a desired range, and the valve can be cranked up and this improves efficiency.
You don't read well, do you? THE E-BOLT IS ELECTRO-PNEUMATIC! This is NOT AN ELECTRIC GRIP FRAME! Okay, did you get it that time?

Here, how about a picture, maybe THIS will sink in...
http://12.96.249.62/systems/systemsi/ebolt/ebolt.jpg
Telling me about "e-bolt lies" when you STILL don't know what you're talking about. No offense, but you're just not getting it.

From what I have read about E bolts, they have the same air source, not an no iso mods are available. I have emailed Tippman, I will post their reply when I get it. If my contention is correct, than the valve and the noid operate at the same pressure. And that means your not going to get the efficiency boosts that other markers can. If I am wrong, then, I apologize. Chalk it up to a love of engineering, and a hot head.
As you can see from the picture, the ASA is now an ASA and regulator combination. It was a regular ASA and micro-rock, but this is now used. With that, air goes into an electric controled solenoid valve. Through that, and into the pneumatic hammer. This is an ENTIRELY seperate air sourse than the valve. Or is this too hard to see?

Your right +/- 4 is consistent, but not compared to a nice set up, and that is the point, if your looking for the best, then tolerances are small. And in my book, high end is just that.
Ummmm, what nice setup can you name that'll shoot +/- 1fps for 50 straight shots? Name just one, please!

No high end was not crated by people like me, rather by better designs. Take cars for example. A M-5 (BMW) is a nice car. My Saturn is a nice car. Is there a difference between the two cars? Can you spot the high end car. Physical limitations are not invisible. If you do not want to accept that different designs have different effects on performance, that’s something you need to deal with.
You can't use a car analogy. With a car, a 1986 Toyota Corola will get 0-60 in 10 minutes. While a 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 will get 0-60 in less than 2 seconds.

However in paintball, we have regulations. Paintballs can't accelerate over 280fps on average. And since all guns are required by these limitations, they all fall under the same rules. They each will shoot just as accurate, and all shoot the same distance.

Like I said, the ONLY thing seperating your precious god like "high end" guns is the trigger pull, and the price tag that goes with them!
Well, that and these invisible barriers you people make to have yourself believe that a Tippmann or a Kingman or a PMI gun could never perform to the level of your infamous "high end" guns. When there really is no such a thing as "high end", but I know you'll never understand a word I'm saying if you haven't gotten it yet. So don't try and comprehend.

And, no cockers aren’t proven overtime- they have had years of superstition that made them legends. When I started playing, I was told all sorts of myths about cockers. But today we all know they cant shoot farther, or straighter, and by no means faster. Basically, they are yesterday’s marker.
Okay, not proven over time? You kidding, they used to really suck back in the day, do nothing but chop. They're now quite good machines if you know what you're doing with them these days. What's wrong with them?

Lastly, there is no doubt in my mind that the quality of player has more to do with skill than the marker, but get real man- a sweet marker doesn’t hurt.
A sweet marker doesn't, no. That's why my Tippmann is so sweet that it'll perform up to par with any gun you can mention out there. Breaking your invisible "high end" limitations.
What is a sweet gun? I feel my Grey Ghost is better than an Impulse, yet I can only get about 4bps with that. That pump is sweeter to me than any electro.
So a sweet gun doesn't hurt no. But you get real, it can't help that much! The gun is just an extention of one's body, and if the body sucks then the gun won't do good either!

Okay, tell me. Say.... this is an Impulse or Angel or "crappy" autococker. Hypathecially speaking. Would you say this is "high end" performance of a gun?

- 250psi operating pressure (fad or not)
- .75mm trigger pull, light as a mouse click
- 13bps, but can cycle faster with Warlord board
- True electro-pneumatic operation
- +/- 4fps (don't give me the 1fps crap. NO gun can shoot that good each and every shot)
- Ball on ball accuracy (with quality paint, of course)
- Whisper quiet operation
- Well balanced

Tell me, what else must I add onto that list to make a gun qualify for your invisible standards of "high end"? I would like to know. Add onto that list anything else, please.

nijle4u

06-19-2002, 09:26 AM

I would just like to point out that this just isnt a ***** fest between two users. I've actually learned a lot about the e-bolt and how they work just from reading the last few posts!

:tup:

*edit* - I mean "Meph's" last few posts. that other guy does symbolize the thought process of all the little kids on the paintball field who talk down to people with "entry level" guns.

NcicHit

06-19-2002, 11:53 AM

I'm glad that worked out.

NcicHit

06-19-2002, 12:00 PM

The Ebolt would come in pretty handy for guarding the fort but I just picked up a used (Red) Dragun. I guess I will put an Ebolt on my Flatline. That would make a pretty good weapon's system.

pollacjw

06-19-2002, 12:49 PM

Before I start, I would like to apologies to Mepy for my part in the antagonizing crap that plagues theses forums. Lets not make this “who is smarter” rather lets just discuss paintball.

Back on topic

Engineering has a massive effect on the performance of a marker. The main problem of a taking a low-end gun and modifying it is that you are enduring the limitations previous engineering imposed. I leave out the term bad because, you have to remember the engineer’s intent- to make a low cost high production marker that could perform adequately.

Take a spyder- even if you take out all of the restrictions (drill out the asa, etc), and change the valve you still have a trade off between operating pressures and recharge time. Nothing you do can change that. This flaw is inherent in the design. This is my point- all designs have limitations; some markers limitations have been meet. When limitations have been met its time to get a better design. One such marker is a cocker but ill address that later.

Were at the heart of the issue- What makes a marker good and what makes a marker high end?

A good marker is one that shoots fast, consistent, and efficient. Barrel/paint match determine accuracy, so that is not a marker issue. For arguments sake ill define a good marker as one that can shoot fast (above 10 bps), is consistent (average of +/- 3 and limited chopping 1/1000), and can get 8-900 shots off a 68/30. How does this translate to our discussion- Well a entry level marker is not designed to accomplish the feats of a good marker. Recall that it is a high production marker- and as you know, tolerances are large when production volume is high. Not to mention that its designed to be cheap then comes performance.

What is a high-end marker- well first it’s a good marker, and because it performs well it costs a lot. Notice its not the other way around.

Readdressing LP
Why is lp good- well there are a few reasons. First, and perhaps most importantly is the reg concept- as you lower operating pressures (not too low otherwise you’ll have flow problems) the reg has an easier time damping fluctuations that would otherwise drastically change fps. Secondly, lp is nicer on paint. Third, in true electros- (after talking to a Tippman tech I concede that the e bolt makes your Tippman a true electro) the option of an ISO mod allows the bolt and valve to operate at different pressures yielding an increase in efficiency. The only thing you can do to a non-electro is polish the internals, get a new valve, get a reg, and put a less ported barrel. Meph, your right - that will not do much to an electro- because it will not do much to any gun. Apologies if I was originally vague but my point was that the design limits what mods can actually change performance. And lp works only in two kinds of setups- true electros and cockers.

Ok so an ebolt takes a non-electro and actually makes it a true-electro. Now lets apply this to Meph’s high-end notions.

Recall what we defined as a good marker as. Take your e-tipp it has an 800psi valve pressure and 100 psi noid pressure, and the valve pressure is high no doubt- so definitely not soft on pant. –1 for e-tipp. Even if you lower it down to 400 or so, your not going to see the good gun quality that you were looking for. The operating pressure is high because of the internals. They are heavy- this means more friction and less efficient. –1 for e-tipp. (But honestly, I do not know what to expect off a Tippman with an ebolt, and I only use Co2 on my tipps so if anyone can state what they got off their marker with and with out the mod please post.) Not only is inefficient but you need a higher pressure reg- and then you don’t get the same benefits of a lower pressure reg setup. As for the firing modes that you can’t use in a tourney or any of the fields that I play at. –1 for e-tipp. .

Lastly is cost. So now, you have a stock marker (and not a bad one for what you pay) at 200 and you going to through 300 to make it electro that is 500 and its just get the gun to fire. –1 for e-tipp. That sounds high end to me.

Another look at “high end guns”

An impulse costs less that the e-tipp and has a lot more upgrade options if you ever wanted them. You could pick up an led Angel for about 50 more. Or you could get a Tribal- it’s a true electro and you can get on for 250 or less. Then if you want to trick it out just send it to Fear Factory- and for 250 more you get a nice custom job.

Cockers-
If we leave out like or dislike and only focus on performance issues than it’s quite easy to see that the cockers day is over. As I said before the popularity about cockers was largely due to the myths that surrounded its performance. In fact, people still claim that they shoot farter, more accurately, and starter than any other marker. This is just untrue. The cocker is obsolete for one reason- its performance can be duplicated, but it can’t duplicate the performance of a modern electro.

Miscellaneous-

Paintball and cars-
The analogy holds- just because there are rules to conform to in paintball does not men that you can’t better engineer a marker. Take NASCAR- you do not think the subtle differences in engineering effect race outcomes? In that racing class, everything is regulated. And you can see better racing teams have better performing cars- and sorry its not just Ernheart Jr’s skills out there. Rather its him and a couple 100 engineers that milk every ounce of performance out of the car. Paintball has the same thing. Some markers are good- the tipp is one- its just not a Porsche. The real question is why does that bother some people.

nijle4u
Never have I talked down to pleople with entry level guns- why should I. I have lots of markers, and i play with em all. But I dont claim that their is no preformance diffrence between the two.

Someone said if two guns shoot a paintball and they have the same speeds, and trajectories then they will go the same distance. Not always. Anyone know why? PM me if you know why.

Meph

06-19-2002, 02:50 PM

Well actually, you can get e-bolts at 250 bucks, and that's expensive. If you pay 300 for one, you're crazy and are getting *** raped. And You can also get a new 98 custom for about 130.
So that's not 500, but rather $380.00. 20 bucks less than an Impulse.
Of course, this is bargain shopping. You can find these things for even less, but I don't want to make it seem too drastic.

For low pressure. Lowering a regulators operating pressure isn't going to make it ..... wait, what kind of regulator? You talking about using a screw in tank with a secondary regulator? Or using something like an A.I.R. or MaxFlo with a secondary reg? Before i comment, I wanna find out which type of setup you're addressing here.

For the 98. 800psi pressure, yes. That is stock. However, you don't have a Tippmann mindset. You don't have to have it already attached to the gun to make it work the way you want. You can tinker around if wanted and get better performance.
And with my 98, I've gotten a lighter valve spring, and I've made my trenches in the CVX valve wider. Thus resulting in a 250psi operating pressure. As compared to the stock 800.
So put +2 back on the board.
That's all that is necessary. A lighter spring, and wider trenches. It's not rocket science, and it's not costly either.

However, LP is also good on recoil. From a stock 800psi gun down to anywhere below 400, the kick from that gun will be amazingly decreased. Like mine, I have basically none. Just like any other gun operating so low. And no recoil means more accurate shots, since the gun won't move on you as you are aiming.

So a high end marker costs a lot. That's the only thing that I got from your statement that seperates "good" from "high end".

Also, a gun doesn't determine accuracy? I'm sorry, but yes it does. The consistency of a gun is vital in the accuracy of ANY gun. A flux of maybe 1fps or 3fps won't see much difference. It'll basically be one ball on top of another. However, when the velocity flux is 9fps or 13fps, then you'll have marginal accuracy.
And not just single shots, but multipul shots as well. Certain guns don't recharge as fast with air. And on 12bps strings, the paint will start at 280fps but then end up going about 120fps.
There's a bit more to accuracy than just paint/barrel. Although those are the biggest factors. A quality barrel with good paint.

So my gun falls under your categories. I can walk my trigger 12bps, or set it on F/A for 13bps. I'm going to assume you'll agree that 4fps flux will fall here too. 1 extra foot is not going to make any gun not concidered a good gun. Limited chopping, eh? Hmmm, well, how does not a single chop in over 1 1/2 years? Or I'll just say well over 30 cases of paint. I'm not overexagerating. Since I've had the e-bolt and set it at a ROF that my hopper will keep up with (until now, I set it on max since I have a HALO) it has yet to chop. And I bought it before Tippmann even had the rights to it! Now for shots per tank, I can't say. I never payed attention to this. But for arguements, I'll say it's a bad gas hog and say it gets 800 shots per tank.

Either way, you're basically describing my gun. And low and behold, it's a bloody Tippmann! Yes, they are good for newbies and such. However, after tweeks, upgrades, modifications and such I have been able to milk out the performance of it.
I know it's limits. I'll never ever say it'll out perform an Angel or Autococker. However, I WILL say that it can perform up to par with them. In accuracy, consistency, ROF, price, lack of ball chopping, et cetera.

specter542

06-19-2002, 03:09 PM

......dayum. Meph, im impressed that you know so much on the 98custom and all of the periphenalia that comes with it. your like a walking Tippmann Encyclopedia. you totally tore up everyones false critiques on the ebolt! :tup: :tup: :tup:

Tommy_pball

06-19-2002, 04:06 PM

if ur gonna get an electro go for a cocker or something nice like that...the jt 5.0 is pretty good

tonysk83

06-19-2002, 06:26 PM

meph man you know everything, the one thing is autocockers run at 300-400 psi, when you use the ebolt to make it run at low pressure do u need the low pressure kit?

Kamotz

06-19-2002, 09:31 PM

I think Meph did a pretty good job in his responce. I will, however, pick out this statement because it's easy.

Originally posted by pollacjw
As for the firing modes that you can’t use in a tourney or any of the fields that I play at. –1 for e-tipp.

So why are electro frames so popular? They all have firing modes, and so do most electro guns. That must be a tick mark off just about every electropnuematic gun on the market.

pollacjw

06-19-2002, 10:45 PM

First off Meph, I salute your knowledge about Tippmans its rare to find someone so knowledgeable. Moreover, that is the problem. A normal average run-of-the-mill guy or gal isn’t going to know how to do half the stuff you’re talking about, not to mention the time involved.

Lets redo some math here:

Call it 150 for the gun and 250 for the ebolt, that’s 400 with shipping and/or tax. Moving on, when you say high-end, you mean cost, and there is something called opportunity cost. The time you spend modifying your marker is time that you could have done something else- work for example. This time needs to be included in your cost. I have spent hours on my spyders- with my time alone the markers are worth a grand- not to mention the custom parts I built. Hey, I like doing that with my time so it’s not a big deal. So figure you have at least 20 hrs invested here. So say you make 6 an hour, and for some one who can work a machine shop, or has a high school education, that’s low. Just so I am not highballing anything here we will call it 6 an hour, so that’s 120 more than originally stated. Now with a new impulse purchase, most shops will mod you gun for free- I know that EPBO does (check’em out they’re nice people, just go to the impulse forum and do a search). If you read my tribal suggestion its only 250 for the gun and 250 for the mod- see I noted the hidden costs. So lets settle for 520 as the actual cost of an e-tipp. Quibbling over twenty bucks when you are spending several hundred seems kind of silly though doesn’t it?

Regs and LP

I left a big one out on reasons for lp. I can’t believe I over looked this. Nonetheless- lp is necessary for most electros for one reason. You will blow the solenoid if you input more than the max pressure.

Which regs?
I was talking about any reg systems- single or double it does not matter. Contrary to popular belief- the pressure that a reg operates affects its recharge rate. If you were to dyno (analyze) your regulator, you would get a performance curve. Recharge rates are a function of two things: pressure and flow. You cannot get consistent flow out of a 2nd reg going from say 800 psi to 700 psi at least not without some serious velocity changes. If you tried this set up you could (more likely would) starve the valve. The general rule is that if your 2nd reg is at 300 you would want at least 600 going in.

This is why all electros are LP- remember no electro can handle 300 psi in the solenoid. So we have to bring it down to a lower pressure in the 200s or less. And this is where all of the auxiliary benefits such as being gentler to paint, reg consistency, etc. Then came the marketing hype- make your semi like the “high-end” markers, make it lp.

Ok, Meph's statement about accuracy is fallacious- accuracy is dependent on paint to barrel match while consistency is based on the marker itself. There is a difference between accuracy and precision (which is a synonym for consistency). Imagine a basic bulls eye, basically four concentric circles. Now if you throw three darts and hit an are in the upper right corner all in a tight grouping that is precise but not accurate- simply its all in one place just not where you wanted. Next, if you throw three darts and hit the right on the edge of the bull’s-eye every time within the second ring that is accurate- it hits a specific spot just not the same place regularly. Finally if you throw three darts and all hit the exact center of the board that is accurate precision- that’s what we want. There are two terms here and they are not interchangeable. One does not affect the other. Going back to my earlier post, I stated, “a good marker has consistency” and “paint to barrel match is the only thing that affects accuracy”.

Just out of curiosity which guns don’t recharge faster with air? Compressed air is the fastest recharging source because it is not ever in a liquid state in the gun.

What kind of paint are you using Mephy? Do small children in another country hand manufacture it? I am just amazed at any type of paint that does not contain one bad ball out of 60,000 rounds and I would like to purchase a lot of it, perhaps by the truckload.

Wait a minute Mephy; your marker doesn’t outperform an autococker? I thought you said it fires 12 bps, and a cocker is lucky to get 7 or 8 and that takes some fantastic finger skill. Regardless though you have now spent the equivalent in time or money of a tweaked working LED angel. Why bust your balls to try to compete when you can just have the angel, or tribal, or impulse, or etc…?

Well, anyway congrats purchasers of the ebolt on joining the “high-end club”. Lets recap; you have now spent approximately the same, as you would have on an impulse or another “high end” gun and you’re hitting a very visible limitation on your marker’s performance.

Why do people buy grip frames or electors that have firing options? Well here is a news flash- people who use mods are normally newbs who cant pull the trigger fast enough on there own, and then brag about 13bps. If you can recall some one saying I CAN SHOOT 13 BPS F/A then you know exactly whom I am talking about. Outside of newbs there’s the paramilitary wackos that want their M1 Colt look-alike to shoot with firing mods. Remember modes can’t be used in comps or any fields that I play at. That leaves only outlaw games- and that’s they place players who don’t want competitive rules should stay.

One more thing, Meph, your correct, your marker will never perform as well as an angel. Do you know why- it slammed into that very visible limitation that your marker has. Its not meant to be a tourney competitive marker.

Does this debate remind anyone of the movie the Fast and the Furious? Yeah it’s the flick about idiot kids that spent tens of thousands of dollars on p.o.s cars to emulate stock Porches, when they just could have bought a Porsche. No similarity here…. Heck no.

WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER

I just got out of the best movie of the year. See the movie: The Dangerous Lives of Alter Boys. No doubt it rules!

Meph

06-20-2002, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by tonysk83
meph man you know everything, the one thing is autocockers run at 300-400 psi, when you use the ebolt to make it run at low pressure do u need the low pressure kit?

I know, I do that every time. I'm so used to talking to people about my Snipers that whenever I THEN talk about autocockers, I forget that cockers come stock with a regulator to bring down the pressure. That one is my bad, I admit. Simple mistake, and I'm sure it'll happen again.

To run an e-bolt with LP you don't need the entire kit. Since the hammer is now gone. But you will need a lighter valve spring at the least to bring it down a couple psi. Then deeper/wider valve trenches for the air to flow through, down another few psi. With those two things, you'll be looking about about 350-400psi I'd guess. Not too sure.
Then add the LPC and you'll have that soft pocket of air under the valve, and you can lower it some more.

It all depends on how low you want to go limbo, ya know?

Meph

06-20-2002, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by pollacjw
First off Meph, I salute your knowledge ...to mention the time involved.
I believe that's one of the reasons Tom Ghee (Tippmann Factory Representative) hired me to repair Tippmanns, I guess?

Lets redo some math here:Be my guest, I'm not picky

Call it 150 for the gun and 250 for the ebolt, that’s 400 with shipping and/or tax. Moving on, ... So lets settle for 520 as the actual cost of an e-tipp. Quibbling over twenty bucks when you are spending several hundred seems kind of silly though doesn’t it?
Well, for people unknowledgable, yes. It might take them hours. Myself... I've done less than two hours worth of work on my gun in total. A lot of the stuff is just drop in equipment. The rest is pretty simple modifications to a trigger pin, the valve, the hammer, et cetera. Nothing that'll take me a whole hour to accomplish. It takes me longer to heat up the soldering iron than it does to work on the chip and shrink wrap.
And like you said, you enjoy doing it! That's the whole point. I take more pride and joy in doing this all myself than paying somebody to do it for me. Not many people can say this, especially these days. People just don't have the inginuity or brainstorming ideas anymore. So even if it did take me 10 hours of work, I wouldn't have mind. It'd have been 10 hours of a fun hobby. That's like saying somebody who makes car models for a hobby is also kinda dumb for not paying somebody to do it for them.

So no, don't add on these hidden charges of personal installation. Because if wanted, people can just sent them into Tippmann Proshop and have it done for them. For Free. Bring it back down to 400 bucks.

Regs and LP

I left a big one out on reasons for lp. I can’t believe I over looked this. Nonetheless- lp is necessary for most electros for one reason. You will blow the solenoid if you input more than the max pressure.
Yeah, that's the solenoid pressure. I think we all know that those can't exceed XXpsi. However, I think the discussion more or less was the valve psi with LP. Since that's the air that hits the ball, the solenoid only opens the valve.

This is why all electros are LP- remember no electro can handle 300 psi in the solenoid. So we have to bring it down to a lower pressure in the 200s or less. And this is where all of the auxiliary benefits such as being gentler to paint, reg consistency, etc. Then came the marketing hype- make your semi like the “high-end” markers, make it lp.
No, I made it to reduce kick, and I like Anarchy paint! I didn't really care at the time to make it "high end" or anything, I just really really like that paint.

Ok, Meph's statement about accuracy is fallacious- accuracy is dependent on paint to barrel match while consistency is based on the marker itself. There is a difference between accuracy and precision (which is a synonym for consistency). Imagine a basic bulls eye, basically four concentric circles. Now if you throw three darts and hit an are in the upper right corner all in a tight grouping that is precise but not accurate- simply its all in one place just not where you wanted. Next, if you throw three darts and hit the right on the edge of the bull’s-eye every time within the second ring that is accurate- it hits a specific spot just not the same place regularly. Finally if you throw three darts and all hit the exact center of the board that is accurate precision- that’s what we want. There are two terms here and they are not interchangeable. One does not affect the other. Going back to my earlier post, I stated, “a good marker has consistency” and “paint to barrel match is the only thing that affects accuracy”.
Haha. You actually believe that the ONLY thing that affects accuracy is paint to barrel match? Okay, I'm not even going to waste my time on you. If you honestly feel that the gun's consistency doesn't affect accuracy, there is no hope for you. Sorry.

Just out of curiosity which guns don’t recharge faster with air? Compressed air is the fastest recharging source because it is not ever in a liquid state in the gun.
Some autocockers can. If people **** around with them too much, they'll recharge slower than normal. Like monkeying with the 3-way, add a jackhammer, or do whatever they feel they want.
Though that's also the #1 reason why so many autocockers go down, is because the owners tinker with them too much

Also, it depends on the hoses used. And the recharge rate of the HPA tank itself. Either too thin hoses slow down air flow. Or a bad HPA tank won't perform as well as say a MaxFlo system.

What kind of paint are you using Mephy? Do small children in another country hand manufacture it? I am just amazed at any type of paint that does not contain one bad ball out of 60,000 rounds and I would like to purchase a lot of it, perhaps by the truckload.
Bad paint? No, I just make sure I have fresh paint. I mean I've had some dimples in there before occasionally, but that's not going to matter. That only affects accuracy, not ball choppage.
And you'll have to realize that the reasons gun chops is not because of bad paint. Not entirely. I mean if you have Hellfire in a stock Spyder, then yes paint will break in the chamber, but that's more or less due to air pressure. And not really a chop.
But any ways, the reason why balls chop is 99% of the time the loaders' fault. Why? Because it doesn't keep up with the fast cycle rate of the gun.

However I know this. So when I used either my Revvy or R2K, I ALWAYS turned down the setting. I made my e-bolt max out it's ROF at 10bps. So this way, I can't outshoot my hopper.

So it's not that I have a miracle gun. Heavens no. It's just that I know how to make anything perform top notch.

Wait a minute Mephy; ... Why bust your balls to try to compete when you can just have the angel, or tribal, or impulse, or etc…?
Yeah, but that's with heavy modifications to my gun. If you heavily modify an autococker, you can get them to fire even faster than 13bps. Example, the ORRacle. That hinge trigger is probably only 1mm in length, and extremely crisp. I can fire just as fast with that as I can with an electro.

Now why "bust my balls" over this? Okay, Angel LED. What do you do? 800 bucks down on the table SLAM, right there. You must pay it ALL AT ONCE!

However, in my situations, I've had my 98 since 1998! Bought it when it first came out. An upgrade one month, tweek it the next... it all EVENTUALLY adds up. I don't slam the money all down at once. I gradually invest small portions. So this way, instead of earning that money through the years and then after 4 years of earning to then spend the money on an Angel. I can just buy that 98 and play with it through those 4 years. So that's 4 extra years of playing, learning new skills, et cetera. (hypathetically speeking, I could've just slapped the $$ on the table, but I just didn't feel like it).

Besides, having a Tippmann perform as well as mine is something to brag about. I even let... for the love of God I can't remember his name. We were repairing guns next to each other down in Long Island. Any ways, he's the Capt. of Ground Zero and he pretty much made the GZ Timmys. Well, he actually liked the performance of my 98, and he could walk that trigger so easily. Needless to say, he was impressed with it's performance, since it is indeed "just a low-end Tippmann".
What bragging rights do I get if I hand him an Angel and he likes it? Exactly!

Well, anyway congrats purchasers of the ebolt on joining the “high-end club”. Lets recap; you have now spent approximately the same, as you would have on an impulse or another “high end” gun and you’re hitting a very visible limitation on your marker’s performance.
Ummmm, what limitations? Please specifically list down each and every single limitation. You have yet to really do this, or explain why my gun is not "high end" with your invisible limitations

Why do people buy grip frames or electors that have firing options? Well here is a news flash- people who use mods are normally newbs who cant pull the trigger fast enough on there own, and then brag about 13bps. If you can recall some one saying I CAN SHOOT 13 BPS F/A then you know exactly whom I am talking about. Outside of newbs there’s the paramilitary wackos that want their M1 Colt look-alike to shoot with firing mods. Remember modes can’t be used in comps or any fields that I play at. That leaves only outlaw games- and that’s they place players who don’t want competitive rules should stay.
Okay, you said -1 for etipp for having modes of fire. Or that the newbs buy eframes for blah blah.

However, what do you think your "invisible high end" guns have? You think they are all only semi-only boards? Hell no. They all come with modes of fire. Unless otherwise specified due to NPPL regulations.

One more thing, Meph, your correct, your marker will never perform as well as an angel. Do you know why- it slammed into that very visible limitation that your marker has. Its not meant to be a tourney competitive marker.
No, I said it'll never OUTperform an Angel. It WILL perform up to par with one. Why? BECAUSE THERE ARE NO LIMITATIONS. Have you yet to realize this? Again, please list down every single little limitation that you can think of. Make a list, I beg of you!

Does this debate remind anyone of the movie the Fast and the Furious? Yeah it’s the flick about idiot kids that spent tens of thousands of dollars on p.o.s cars to emulate stock Porches, when they just could have bought a Porsche. No similarity here…. Heck no.
Yeah, but didn't they also sup up that Supra and beat the Firrarhi? Exactly!
Again, bragging rights!

Lostinthewoods

06-20-2002, 06:23 AM

I think pollacjw is missing one point here. Most people with the ebolt have upgraded the gun over time. I don't know anyone who has purchased a 98 with the ebolt already installed. That would be a waste of money in my opinion. So if your options are to spend $500 on a new gun or $225 for an upgrade that will make your gun competitive with a gun costing $500 or more, than the ebolt makes plenty of sense. Just the tunability offered by having an adjustable valve dwell time and adjustable solenoind pressure makes it worth it to me. It'ss a tinkerer's (sp) dream.

I have been using a 98 for two years with a Psycho Ballistic Em-98 kit (Ebolt) and have found it to be an extremely wortwhile investment. One of the current popular upgrade trends for the stacked tube clone electros (Bushy, Tribal, Impulse) is to add a palmers rock reg to improve air pressure consistancy to the solenoid. Hmm... mine came that way. Another trend is toward open-faced delrin high flow bolts for lower pressure on fragile paints. Hmm... Mine came that way. (ALL 98's do) Want to switch between single and double trigger frames??? Any 98 custom can in about 10 minutes for less than $20. Can't do that with any of the others. At least not for less than $100. Okay, so the trigger isn't adjustable like the others but for about $1.50 and the cost of a 6-32 tap it can be. Want a magnetic trigger?? I'll sell you the plans and the magnets for $20. Want to talk LP and consistancy? For the price of a spring ($0.35) and a little hand milling my gun runs at 200-225 psi all day +/-2 at the chrono. It's funny to see the looks at the chrono station I get with my "rental" gun.

I have recently been checking out other guns. I just have an itch to start another project. I honestly have not found anything out there that out performs my gun in a price range I'm comfortable with. I'm not going to spen $1000-$1500 dollars on a gun I'm going to end up upgrading further anyway.

Is my gun the prettiest at the field??? NO WAY! Does it get the respect that the expensive guns do?? After the first game it does!!

http://future.boomspeed.com/toddtaylor/NewWarp.jpg

pollacjw

06-20-2002, 11:12 AM

Mephy, You need to reread what I said about accuracy. A marker that hits its target has both accuracy and consistency. Neither of are synonymous and they are not functions of one another. In this department, you are wrong. Please don’t be so arrogant to assume that you’re never wrong.

Hey readers of the thread- perhaps you could help me here- have any of you taken a high school or college physics class? If you think that my accuracy/consistency is correct please speak up. I know you might loose Mephs good grace but it’s for paintball- the greater good.

Cost is cost and it needs to be accounted for. If a guy asked me how much my sypder cost, I would not say 125. I would say a few hundred, and time lots of time. That’s right Mephy, most people don’t work with Tippman’s on a regular basis. Most people will spend more than 20 hours on a simple mod, not to mention the research before doing it. Don’t be like Enron- disclose all of your costs!

Yes all electros came out with firing options- but now everything is going SOB. I was saying that having firing modes is a function that you don’t need. Its not a improvement- its moot.

And no- I don’t care what paint you use- in 60,000 round your going to have a few chopps- its that or your smoking crack and ignoring the breaks.

Why Tippmann’s are Inferior to good markers:

First, I am not buying your 200 psi or even 300. How do you know it’s that low? Have you measured? If so, how? If you have done the math to prove it- if so post it. On the other hand, perhaps you can feel how low it is at. The same goes for your bps- have you ever put your gun over a crony and checked to see how fast you shot- or again does it just feel that fast as well?

Either way- after talking to a Tippmann tech named Tim, I was told that 300 was the lowest he had seen- and 350 was what I should expect as good for LP. Realistically this means 350 to 400 is good. Below 350 is rare but very nice.

Ill do some math over the weekend but your claims sounds too low for a Tippman to recharge and shoot 10 bps. If I post equations that model what happened in a Tippman will anyone check them? Will you readers accept my math if I give a small explanation?

Mephy- lets say your markers for real- its one in a million. That’s the problem. Bang for buck its not going to be duplicated so people are better off buying high-end markers where performance is a little more certain.

Pollacjw’s Top 8 for Tippy Limitations:

#1high operating pressure. Say the norm is 400 psi
#2 you stop at 13 bps high end guns can go faster
#3 no optic eye options (unless you are going to make your own and that’s going to be HIGH cost (time, parts, research, etc….)
#4 your adjustable trigger- if it’s the electro I cant comment I have not shot one yet. However if you’re on a semi the little that a trigger mod does wont give you a huge increase in performance.
#5 not gas efficient
#6 Loud
#7 the marker itself is shaped poorly for Speedball
#8 Limited amount of aftermarket products- sorry there’s no WERM, Dezigns, KAPP or what not for the Tippmann.

The reason the kid in the movie won the race against the Ferrari was because IT’S A FREEKIN MOVIE! In movie land people can fly but outside of make-believe it’s not so easy. But perhaps you gun is like that- in your world it performs at a superior level; on my field it probably performs like any moded entry gun.

Meph

06-20-2002, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by pollacjw
Mephy, You need to reread what I said about accuracy. ...wrong.
Please, I'm the first to admit that I know too much about this sport, yet I don't know everything. I know I'm not always right, but I do know when I am!
And what did you say? ...accuracy is dependent on paint to barrel match while consistency is based on the marker itself... Going back to my earlier post, I stated, “a good marker has consistency” and “paint to barrel match is the only thing that affects accuracy”.
Okay, you said so right there. "paint to barrel match is the only thing that affects accuracy/. No, it isn't. And again, if you honestly feel that's the only thing that affects accuracy, you are yourself way too arrogant.

Take this example. I have a gun that has the world greatest paint to barrel match. However, the velocity fluxuations are unbearably horrible. Say +/- 20fps (don't worry, I've seen this before!). You take one shot, the paint goes right to where you aimed. You take a second shot, it falls short. You take another shot, it goes through the target!
Yes the paint and barrel match will make it straight, but the consitency of a gun will make them go in the same line. Meaning if you lock it into place, and make a tall target. You'll get a paint spread that looks like an exclamation point! That's not accurate at all. So YES, the consistency of a gun DOES affect how accurate a paintball will travel.

I don't know, what am I not making clear? Am I phrasing this wrong or something?

Cost is cost ... Don’t be like Enron- disclose all of your costs!
You missed the entire point. NOT EVERYBODY IS A RICH LITTLE BRAT LIKE YOURSELF! You see, we all don't have pockets lined with silver and eat out of a golden bowl! We can't just slam that money on the table at once.
With this process, somebody that has a tight budget can constantly upgrade the gun one little piece at a time.

And what would you rather do? Put yourself into their shoes. Say you run a paper route and mow lawns. Honestly, would you rather save up for 3 years to buy an angel? Those 3 years, you don't get to play paintball. You learn no skills.
OR would you rather buy a low-cost gun, play throughout those years, and upgrade it every other month to your liking? Where those 3 years gone by, that's 3 years of hard earned experience. And when you show up on the field, you'll be that much better than the new rich kid on the field who's mommy bought him the brand new iR3.

Now so it might take them 20 hours to do a modification. SO WHAT? Generally, they enjoy what they're doing. They have spare time.
What, should I clock myself for eating dinner too? That takes a half hour. Or how about clock myself for playing video games, watching TV, reading a book as well? That's hours of the day gone by, I MUST account the time and money necessary for that time as well! Lets not forget sleep! I take 6 hours of sleep, I have to account for that as well!
Don't you get it? You can't account for time working on a gun. It's just what people do for fun. They like taking pride in doing these things themselves. You know what this kind of pride is? I doubt it.

Yes all electros ...its moot.
Okay, but why would you dock points off of the e-bolt if all guns came like that? The e-bolt isn't new, it's been around for a while. Back then, there were no such things as SOB's. So why would you even think of mentioning this?
Oh, I get it. You can't really find anything wrong (because I have pretty much proven you wrong on everything so far, sadly... no offense) with the e-bolt now so you are scroungin to find anything that you can critisize it on.

And no- I don’t care what paint you use- in 60,000 round your going to have a few chopps- its that or your smoking crack and ignoring the breaks.
I'm GOING to have a few chops? Ummmm, no. I have an extremely good memory, I'd recall if I have had a chop or not. Nice drug phrase, though. I'm sure that I smoke crack, uh huh. That's why you can't comprehend a single thing I've ever told you so far. Go ahead, live in your fantasy world where only there's an A-list of guns, and if it's not on that list then it's impossible for it to perform that good. Make up your invisible limitations, be my guest. I am a little bit smarter than that, and I know better. You might as well one of these days, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Why Tippmann’s are Inferior to good markers:

First, I am not buying ... fast as well?
1- Radarchons now can measure how fast you shoot. Plus, it's capped at 13bps, and if I just turn up the adjustor and set it for full-auto... hey guess what there genius, take a wild guess how fast it'll shoot! Hmmmmm, 9? 18? 11? I mean if it's capped at 13bps and I max it out on F/A, I can only wonder how fast it'll shoot! Hmmmmm!!

2- You are not buying it, of course not. You are ignorant and closed minded. You're living in a fantasy world where only you can be correct, and where you can make up limitations and barriers that don't even exist!
Did you ever hear of the item "guage"? Yes, that's right. A "guage" is a wonderful piece of equipment. Whatever the pressure is, it'll read it out for you! No more guessing or bull****ting, it'll actually accuratly tell you just how high or low a pressure you are operating on! Oh wowie wowzers!

Either way- ... but very nice.
No offense to the Tippmann techs, but I know a lot more than them. Half the times I call them, they have no clue what I'm talking about. It's not their fault, though. They can help you with more common things, easily. But if one of them honestly said that below 350 is rare, then something is wrong with him.

Ill do some math over the weekend but your claims sounds too low for a Tippman to recharge and shoot 10 bps. If I post equations that model what happened in a Tippman will anyone check them? Will you readers accept my math if I give a small explanation?
Math? Why, I've already shot physical proof. It's just that you have no ability to grasp a single thing I've been saying. Plus you even said yourself, "Compressed air is the fastest recharging source because it is not ever in a liquid state in the gun".

Mephy- lets say your markers for real- its one in a million. That’s the problem. Bang for buck its not going to be duplicated so people are better off buying high-end markers where performance is a little more certain.

Pollacjw’s Top 8 for Tippy Limitations:

#1high operating pressure. Say the norm is 400 psi
Norm may be 400, but I'm at 250.
#2 you stop at 13 bps high end guns can go faster
You didn't read, I said capped at 13bps. BUT WITH A WARLORD BOARD it CAN go faster! You know, the Tribal Warlord board.
#3 no optic eye options (unless you are going to make your own and that’s going to be HIGH cost (time, parts, research, etc….)
Not really. I know somebody that'll do it for you, not that expensive either.
Plus as long as you set the adjustor down to make it so you can NOT outshoot your loader, chances are you're not going to chop paint. So an eye isn't really necessary except for idiots who put a 9v on a gun with the setting maxxed out!
#4 your adjustable trigger- if it’s the electro I cant comment I have not shot one yet.not surprised!! However if you’re on a semi the little that a trigger mod does wont give you a huge increase in performance.
Okay, no increase in performance. No ****, it's like this with every gun. A higher ROF doesn't increase performance, just paint consumption. Why is this even on this list?
#5 not gas efficient
I never counted the number of shots per tank. Talk to Todd (lostinthewoods) I think he has.
Also, the Matrix isn't gas efficient either. Yet it's concidered your "invisible high end". Hell, I bet I get BETTER efficiency than a Matrix. Or Shocker! Shockers' a bloody gas hog (unless they fixed it).
#6 Loud
Wrong. No hammer/sear so there's no metal ping. And a nicely ported barrel helps. I have a literally whisper quiet gun. Like you've said, you never shot it, how do you even know? Oh, you're guessing and making stuff up... that's right, I forgot.
#7 the marker itself is shaped poorly for Speedball
So, just put on a drop forward. It'll make it pretty compact. I've had no problem using it on the speedball field. Again, this is PERSONAL PREFERENCE, not your individual call there God!
#8 Limited amount of aftermarket products- sorry there’s no WERM, Dezigns, KAPP or what not for the Tippmann.
Why is there? Because Tippmann's don't have that many UNNECESSARY aftermarket parts. Most aftermarket parts for Tippmanns actually help performance. Unlike the KAPP and WERM counterparts, who make tons of cosmetic upgrades that don't really help at all.

Okay, I think I've successfuly dismissed every single one of your pathetic listings. That was a truely sad list! C'mon, quit bickering. Just admit when you're wrong. I have in the past, and I know I will in the future, I'm not ashamed to admit it. But I know that with this, I ain't wrong.

The reason the kid in the movie won the race against the Ferrari was because IT’S A FREEKIN MOVIE! In movie land people can fly but outside of make-believe it’s not so easy. But perhaps you gun is like that- in your world it performs at a superior level; on my field it probably performs like any moded entry gun.
I think I can say the same for your brain, in a happy land where limitations can be made when they don't exist, and only A-listed guns can be allowed in the tournament scene.
And yes, it does perform superior. Superior to a stock Tippmann. Superior to an Angel? Heaven's no. But it will perform just as good!

You seriously need to learn what you're talking about. No offense or anything, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.

tonysk83

06-20-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by pollacjw

Does this debate remind anyone of the movie the Fast and the Furious? Yeah it’s the flick about idiot kids that spent tens of thousands of dollars on p.o.s cars to emulate stock Porches, when they just could have bought a Porsche. No similarity here…. Heck no.

Let me think here, they made a supra out perform a ferrari, this is the same case, the ferrari is better stock, but he put the upgrades, on his car and it out performed a ferrari, lets say the tippy is a supra, and the ferrari is a how bout gz timmy, in a game it is one on one, and the upgraded tippy beats the stock gz, same case and senario.

NcicHit

06-20-2002, 12:54 PM

I just bought a Blazer so there goes the money for my Ebolt. But I still have my Tippmann 98 RT and my Tippmann 98 Flatline. I bought the RT used and it had a ton of after-market parts on it already. It shoots great and I can get bursts and full-auto out of it. It doesn't stay full-auto like the Ebolt could but it is no big deal. If you don't like Tippmann's you don't have to buy one-clique. It's too bad Tippmann didn't get into Wal-Mart instead of Brass Eagle at least those new guys buying their first gun wouldn't be stuck with a Talon (which by the way makes a good sinker on a fish line).

Tippmann makes a good sturdy gun which doesn't cost an arm and a leg. IF you know what you are doing to can fire a lot of rounds at of it without breaking any paint. I run mine at about 550 to 600 on CO2. I have a CO2000 I use on my bottom line and an anti-siphon tank and it works ok for me. When I want to reach out and touch someone I use my Flatline. You can't beat it for distance and the paint doesn't always bounce like people say. I have shot a few guys that can tell that it breaks. I don't use the sights but probably like everyone else I move the barrel in the direction of the target and where I want the paint to go. A scope on a paintball gun is like soap on a rope in a men's prision-it don't matter. I have even run my Tippmann on propane and lite it up like a flame thrower so I could clear out a bunker. Well, maybe not but I could if I wanted to.

As far as full-auto goes we have our own paintball field so you can use a gun with full-auto, use a pump, sling shot, burts or whatever you want. But it has to be under 290 and no frozen paint balls.:)

NcicHit

06-20-2002, 12:57 PM

That is one nice looking gun.
Originally posted by Lostinthewoods
I think pollacjw is missing one point here. Most people with the ebolt have upgraded the gun over time. I don't know anyone who has purchased a 98 with the ebolt already installed. That would be a waste of money in my opinion. So if your options are to spend $500 on a new gun or $225 for an upgrade that will make your gun competitive with a gun costing $500 or more, than the ebolt makes plenty of sense. Just the tunability offered by having an adjustable valve dwell time and adjustable solenoind pressure makes it worth it to me. It'ss a tinkerer's (sp) dream.

I have been using a 98 for two years with a Psycho Ballistic Em-98 kit (Ebolt) and have found it to be an extremely wortwhile investment. One of the current popular upgrade trends for the stacked tube clone electros (Bushy, Tribal, Impulse) is to add a palmers rock reg to improve air pressure consistancy to the solenoid. Hmm... mine came that way. Another trend is toward open-faced delrin high flow bolts for lower pressure on fragile paints. Hmm... Mine came that way. (ALL 98's do) Want to switch between single and double trigger frames??? Any 98 custom can in about 10 minutes for less than $20. Can't do that with any of the others. At least not for less than $100. Okay, so the trigger isn't adjustable like the others but for about $1.50 and the cost of a 6-32 tap it can be. Want a magnetic trigger?? I'll sell you the plans and the magnets for $20. Want to talk LP and consistancy? For the price of a spring ($0.35) and a little hand milling my gun runs at 200-225 psi all day +/-2 at the chrono. It's funny to see the looks at the chrono station I get with my "rental" gun.

I have recently been checking out other guns. I just have an itch to start another project. I honestly have not found anything out there that out performs my gun in a price range I'm comfortable with. I'm not going to spen $1000-$1500 dollars on a gun I'm going to end up upgrading further anyway.

Is my gun the prettiest at the field??? NO WAY! Does it get the respect that the expensive guns do?? After the first game it does!!

http://future.boomspeed.com/toddtaylor/NewWarp.jpg

-=RA=-

06-20-2002, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by pollacjw
Hey readers of the thread- perhaps you could help me here- have any of you taken a high school or college physics class? If you think that my accuracy/consistency is correct please speak up. I know you might loose Mephs good grace but it’s for paintball- the greater good.

Actually, yes...I have taken a college level Physics course at high school (did quite well, a 98 average). And no, you're wrong on some account. A good paint/barrel match IS the biggest thing to accuracy...but, as Meph said, good consistancy is also vital in having good accuracy. Accuracy and consistency are not interchangable words...but in paintball they do effect each other.

CMarlowe

06-20-2002, 04:04 PM

I too have taken physics, in fact I have a physics minor. Look at the following link, it explains accuracy and precision to all who are too lazy to read a physics book.

http://www.contingencyanalysis.com/acc2.htm

Meph

06-20-2002, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by CMarlowe
it explains accuracy and precision to all who are too lazy to read a physics book.

That be me! AND I'm too lazy to read the linked version, as well!

Lostinthewoods

06-20-2002, 06:45 PM

Accuracy is a matter of good round paint fired through a barrel of matching bore size. Placing ball on ball all day long is a matter of consistency. If your velocity fluctuates so will your point of impact. Period, end of story.

I have shot my gun over a chrono that can give rof. In semi I was able to do 12bps. With the gun in auto at max ROF the chrono read 15 bps. Psycho Ballistics claims a max rof of approximately 13 bps. Shoot down was non-existent

As for verifying my input pressure first let me give you a little background on myself. I run the compounding department of a major national pharmaceutical company. My department is responsible for producing topical prescription medications that result in about $60,000,000.00 in gross annual sales. As a result I have access to a whole calibration and metrology department. They are responsible for calibrating various systems throughout the company. One very important part of the job is calibrating various pressure gauges. Most to +/- 1psi at pressures ranging from approx 10 psi - 2000 psi. I also have access to an in house machine shop with several very competent machinists.

The gauges used to set up my gun are probably better cared for and more accurate than 99% of those in use by the paintball industry. As a result I can confidently state that my gun uses about 200 psi of air to propel a paintball approx 290 FPS. Slightly more or less depending on the air temperature. I can also state that after some minor modification to the solenoid in my gun it cycles at 60 psi, about the same as a Free Flow cocker or an AKA Viking.

I don't mind a healthy debate but. As a matter of fact I rather enjoy it but give me facts not conjecture and speculation.

Todd

Lostinthewoods

06-20-2002, 06:48 PM

Oh and another thing.... One of my best friends is a mechanical engineer.:D

pollacjw

06-20-2002, 08:14 PM

Like I was saying- Accuracy is one thing consistency is another. When you combine the to its accurate consistency- and that a paintball player wants. Accuracy is dependent on the barrel/paint match- consistency is determined by the marker.

Ill be back. Working on a few things.

Oh and good for you friend- why did you mention that now?

Lostinthewoods

06-21-2002, 03:32 AM

He's just a very valuable resource. He has access to very powerful cad software and huge cnc machines. Helps me to iron out some of my mods. He's also a paintball player.

nijle4u

06-21-2002, 07:21 AM

I'm not sure where this post is going to go ... posting more of yoru oppinions on how paintball works is only going to result in meph or maybe lost now to reply and try to debunk everything you say.

Whats the point of carrying this further? I think every reader has already drawn the conclusion that a Tippman can perform "ON PAR" with the "high end" guns that are out today.

Thats the only point here.

The only thing i could see is if you posted some more limitations you think the tippmann has and let them reply. Because that previous list was pretty weak.

Blackfire

06-24-2002, 12:04 AM

This whole thread should be moved to the "Heated Bickering Over Pointless and Inane Subjects Forum." I mean come on, do you ppl. even know what the subject of the thread is any more? If u want to bash eachother then do it over PM's. Don't waste space on what at one point were perfectly good threads.

Meph

06-24-2002, 05:28 AM

But if you read our debating (or as you wanna call it, bickering) then you'll find out it's very educationamal!

Besides, I'm only trying to set the record straight. I'm not the person posting gibberish and hype on here, so don't be complaining to me about that.

Lostinthewoods

06-24-2002, 07:31 AM

Who's bashing anyone?? Someone asked about the ebolt upgrade. Some people gave thier opinions (some who had no idea how the ebolt works), then some facts were stated. Now anyone who may be interested in the upgrade will have at least two informed opinions upon which to base thier decision. So now if you don't have anything informative to add please don't post any further Blackfire. Don't post *****ing about peope bithcing especially if there's no bithching going on. Lets make this a sticky!

thebluenu

06-24-2002, 08:06 AM

hey Lostinthewoods, your gun looks pretty bad, but thats a pretty nice setup you got there, im sure its bad ***

AvalonGT

06-24-2002, 08:15 AM

Meph is cool He knows so much abotu tippmanns ha can convince anybody thta tippmanns are the best in the world.And meph do you have any picturesof your gun? Anyway by look at the picture of the E-bolt jsut wondering con you still use the RT

tonysk83

06-24-2002, 10:48 AM

no you cant use the rt with the ebolt

Blackfire

06-24-2002, 07:28 PM

Wow, I guess I'm a flamer who got flamed by a flamer for flaming flamers......kinda screwed up.

arson51

02-28-2003, 03:44 PM

who remembers this thread. man there is some real butt getting whooped in here!

E r y k

02-28-2003, 03:50 PM

whoa, we had a thread like this??

arson51

03-01-2003, 08:33 PM

yeah its so freaking informative that it should be a sticky!

-=ReD-hAzE=-

03-01-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by arson51
yeah its so freaking informative that it should be a sticky!
:idea::idea::idea: or...not...

it might be sticky quality if it was refined and condensed...but not in its current state...

john49erfan

03-02-2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by pollacjw
there is something called opportunity cost. The time you spend modifying your marker is time that you could have done something else- work for example. This time needs to be included in your cost. I have spent hours on my spyders- with my time alone the markers are worth a grand- not to mention the custom parts I built. Hey, I like doing that with my time so it’s not a big deal. So figure you have at least 20 hrs invested here. So say you make 6 an hour, and for some one who can work a machine shop, or has a high school education, that’s low. Just so I am not highballing anything here we will call it 6 an hour, so that’s 120 more than originally stated.

WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER :rolleyes:

I love this thread, time spent reading it just increased the value of my Tippmann.

Thanx for bumping it. I learned alot reading it 6 months ago and even more this time. Great informative thread on the e-bolt.

willpill

06-18-2003, 10:48 PM

can i just use one plug to go into my valve on the DF and the other open plug to go into the (with micro line fitting) ebolt?

or is it too much psi (i think i know what im talking about) and itll blow the hose?

i dont wanna buy a whole new df without a bottomline

so thanks

look at sig for some info

thanks agian

TeamBlackHawk

06-19-2003, 12:29 PM

You might want HPA so you don't kill your electronics.

willpill

06-19-2003, 01:34 PM

so even if i had a anti siphon?

i would risk frying it?

muddylars1

06-19-2003, 04:06 PM

i have to admit i have never fired an autococker but i have tried the ebolt it is awsome it is like awhole new gun, it is mad quiet and has a really sensitive trigger and has no kick if i were u see if u could find some place to try out both guns and see which one u like better but u will need compresses air for it or else u sill shott too fast for c02 and it will freeze up your gun which is no good but if u have it already it will be no problem

1Speed

06-19-2003, 06:09 PM

Don't waste your money. Sell your tippmann and buy an electro-pneumatic marker like a b2k3 or an impulse. You can put some serious upgrades on those things that will blow any tippmann away that has an e-bolt. That's all i have to say.

john49erfan

06-20-2003, 09:21 AM

Hey 1Speed, you seem to know alot about paintball markers.... what makes the b2k3 or impulse that much better than an e-bolt Tippmann? explain, explain, explain

1Speed

06-20-2003, 11:45 AM

Well it's fairly simple. An impulse or a b2k3 are specifically made as an electropneumatic marker. A tippmann on the other hand was more designed as a blowback semi-auto more so than an electro. Therefore there is a performance advantage that the impulse or b2k2 already have.
There's problems with blow-back still with the ebolt too. Although there is no longer a need for blowback to recock the marker, there is still some the custom 98 will naturally have that the ebolt doesnt solve and it continues to send excess air up into the hopper which will substancially decrease your feed rate. An impulse and a b2k3 do not have this since their design doesn't eliminates it.
You can also get way more upgrades for an impulse or b2k3. You can get new trigger frames, chips(chaos, zip, insaino, etc), triggers(blade demonic, etc), bolts, respirators, low pressure chambers, ball detents, high and low risers, the tapeworm for the impulse-- basically anything you can think of. You can also get the vison eye for the impulse and the PDS for the b2k3 which are anti-chopping devices; something you wont have on a tippmann. With a good collection of upgrades, your stock impulse, which may not have been shooting any better than the ebolt tippmann, will now be significantly faster and more efficient than any maxed out tippmann custom 98.
And finally the looks. An impulse or b2k3 comes in a variety of colors compared to the C98's 2 colors which are quite dull. Of course you can get a custom 98 anodized to a new color but who really wants the hassle of that? The body design of an impulse or a b2k3 tops a tippmann by far as well. And there's add-ons for impulses that make it look even better like button covers and covers for the vison eye. There's almost no limits to what you can customize on an impulse(more so than a b2k3 but still a b2k3 has more than a C98).
I think i've basically covered everything in my opinion that makes an impulse or b2k3 better than a ebolt 98 Custom. The only downside I can really think of is the price. It is going to cost you a lot more to upgrade an impulse but when you first get it, it's basically as good as an ebolt C98. But the ebolt C98 is about as good as it's gonna get.
If you want to know, I prefer the impulse over the b2k3 since there are more upgrades currently for it. However, Indian Creek might come out with more in the future for their bushmasters.
I hope this explains everything you needed to know.

E r y k

06-20-2003, 11:50 AM

and the impy costs way more than your tippy.

if you already have alot of stuff on your 98c and you dont want to ditch it, get the ebolt, otherwise do what speed said and save up for a bko/impy with that extra 200...

or, go buy paint and play!

1Speed

06-20-2003, 11:53 AM

Ya that would be the biggest concern and the biggest downside for an impulse or b2k3 is the added price. But I would still say it is worth it.

Blackfire

06-26-2003, 09:44 PM

After rereading some of this stuff, it actually is quite informative, at first it just looked like another set of people trying to sound smarter than one another. However, I have heard debates in here over electro versus non, but nothing about fully pneumatic markers such as the matrix, epic, assault 80, or nova. You've said how you think Tippmans compare to high-end electros and 'cockers, but what about the fully-pneumatics?

willpill

06-29-2003, 08:25 AM

meph said that the older ebolt used a micro rock

if i am right.. can i buy the ebolt(i have a drop forward that you cannot replace the asa) and then get a 90 degree fitting and a micro rock to attach to my ebolt?

btw this will eventuallt run on hpa

XxNastyZeroxX

06-30-2003, 04:38 PM

dude i will totally go for that autococker have you seen that Eblade that thing is freakin fast!!! fastest i ever seen !! besides a the tippmanns ebolt half of the stuff it has on there u cant use in tourneys like that turbo trigger and tthe full auto and the 3 shots burst and 6 u can use the 13 per sec on semi but u hardly see tippmanns in tourneys n e ways except for Tippmann Effect which there an ok team ya sure they did that IAO 1rst place thingy but there in an amutear level im not sayin im good but tippmann should get better ppl so they can be a pro team!! No offense Tippmann Gods!! and dont get me wrong tippmanns r the Sh*t !! but i think that new autococker eblade took it out BAD!!!!!!

willpill

07-02-2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by XxNastyZeroxX
... besides a the tippmanns ebolt half of the stuff it has on there u cant use in tourneys like that turbo trigger and tthe full auto and the 3 shots burst and 6 u can use the 13 per sec on semi but u hardly see tippmanns in tourneys n e ways except for Tippmann Effect which there an ok team ya sure they did that IAO 1rst ...

all guns with a electronic board you can have difffrent modes. like the spyder's that bad company uses and the timmy's with all there programmable ROF and MOF.

i know your not , but just saying that tippys arent a bad gun for tourney just beacuase it got extra MOF's. :|

if i had alot of MOF . i would just use it for fun really

adrenalinejunky

07-02-2003, 07:19 PM

actually, alot of electronic paintball guns don't have firing modes (impulse, speed, viking, ect) but i don't see what the big deal about haveing them is, the gun has to be dissasembled to change them...

Well it's fairly simple. An impulse or a b2k3 are specifically made as an electropneumatic marker. A tippmann on the other hand was more designed as a blowback semi-auto more so than an electro. Therefore there is a performance advantage that the impulse or b2k2 already have.[quote]
actually, the tippmann/bko/imp all have pretty much the exact same electronics setup, the tippmann valvve is fine, and with some rubber and a little ingenuity the blow back issue could be fixed.

[quote]
There's problems with blow-back still with the ebolt too. Although there is no longer a need for blowback to recock the marker, there is still some the custom 98 will naturally have that the ebolt doesnt solve and it continues to send excess air up into the hopper which will substancially decrease your feed rate. An impulse and a b2k3 do not have this since their design doesn't eliminates it.

your gtting your kinds of blowback mixed up, theres the kind that recockes the hammer(which the tippmann has) and theres the kind the goes up the feed tube (which all three will have a little off, though not really a large amount

You can also get way more upgrades for an impulse or b2k3. You can get new trigger frames, chips(chaos, zip, insaino, etc), triggers(blade demonic, etc), bolts, respirators, low pressure chambers, ball detents, high and low risers, the tapeworm for the impulse-- basically anything you can think of.

a new trigger frame and chip i'll give you (though you could put a morlock on the tippman) but the tippmann has multiple triggers out for it, multiple bolts(not that it needs it, "venturi" bolts are hype, the most efficient design remains open faced, and thats what the tippmann is) the respirator is actually a low pressure regulator, which the tippmann comes with(and a new one can be added with a littel work, but agian, not neccessary) a low pressure chamber can be added to a tippmann, and a 98 doesn't need a new ball detent, because they got it right the first time, all thes fancy ball detents are harder on paint and have ben know to chip bolts, while the rubber deten is very easy on paint, and will not harm your bolt in the slightest. and you can also get new feed elbows for the tippmann.

and the tapeworm is only needed because the imp can have problems recocking without it, more upgrades? perhaps, but most of those are only becuase the manufacturere didn't get it right the first time, or its totally useless.

You can also get the vison eye for the impulse and the PDS for the b2k3 which are anti-chopping devices; something you wont have on a tippmann. With a good collection of upgrades, your stock impulse, which may not have been shooting any better than the ebolt tippmann, will now be significantly faster and more efficient than any maxed out tippmann custom 98.

actually, an e-tippmann will have better efficiency than many high end guns, even after they are upgraded, and in most cases, vision eyes really aren't neccesary, with a stock tippmann i'd get maybe 2-3 chops out of a thousand, and with teh e-bolt there is less mass moving(which means less enurtia) and less pressure behind the bolt(which cna be adjusted via the lpr)

as for faster, with a vision eye, an imp is capped at 19. with and e-bolt, a tippmann is capped at 18. and i think thats the bigest real advantage i've seen yet....

And finally the looks. An impulse or b2k3 comes in a variety of colors compared to the C98's 2 colors which are quite dull. Of course you can get a custom 98 anodized to a new color but who really wants the hassle of that? The body design of an impulse or a b2k3 tops a tippmann by far as well. And there's add-ons for impulses that make it look even better like button covers and covers for the vison eye. There's almost no limits to what you can customize on an impulse(more so than a b2k3 but still a b2k3 has more than a C98).
I think i've basically covered everything in my opinion that makes an impulse or b2k3 better than a ebolt 98 Custom. The only downside I can really think of is the price. It is going to cost you a lot more to upgrade an impulse but when you first get it, it's basically as good as an ebolt C98. But the ebolt C98 is about as good as it's gonna get.
If you want to know, I prefer the impulse over the b2k3 since there are more upgrades currently for it. However, Indian Creek might come out with more in the future for their bushmasters.
I hope this explains everything you needed to know.

the looks, i'm going to have to agree, tippmanns do leave a little to be desired in that department, but for the difference in price were talking, you could get some custom milling and ano done. (i know i know, you think its a hassle) and still have a little left over....