Which goes first?? reg or x-chamber??

[Irongut99]

If I understand previous posts....using CO2...

Tank to regulator to x-chamber to gun is not right(x-chamber useless) Why??

Tank to x-chamber to regulator to gun is better setup?

Is that because the regulator is working with expanded gas?
What are the benifits?? I own a spyder TL+.
Enough questions!!!

[Auctionjunkie!]

Originally posted by Irongut99
If I understand previous posts....using CO2...

Tank to regulator to x-chamber to gun is not right(x-chamber useless) Why??

Tank to x-chamber to regulator to gun is better setup?

Is that because the regulator is working with expanded gas?
What are the benifits?? I own a spyder TL+.
Enough questions!!!


First some basic info;
A regulator keeps the gas output pressure to a constant level.
An expansion chamber converts liquid to gas.
CO2 is a liquid in the bottle. If the tank is vertical then liquid shouldn't come out.
CO2 bottles do not have regulators so as the temperature changes the output pressure changes. Nominally the pressure is 850 psi. On a cold day it can drop to 650 psi and on a hot day go as high as 1200 psi.
Knowing all the above the order of events is;
CO2 Bottle,
expansion chamber,
regulator,
gun.

If you have the expansion chamber after the reg in theory all it will do is become a volumizer for the valve. Albiet a very inefficient one.
A common mistake on the Shutters is the addition of an expansion chamber after the reg. It actually does nothing.

Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys

[ToiletSiphon]

It may even make your gun less regular because the co2 expand in the x-chamber at a different rate depending of the temperature.

The best way to keep co2 out of the gun is to run a remote or add an antisiphon tube to your bottle. Those tubes are just 10$ and really worth it. It's also a good idea to have a regulator that can handle co2 pretty well, like a palmer stabilisator. This reg is 10 times better than a x-chamber to keep co2 out of the gun.

[MuckRaker]

Originally posted by Auctionjunkie!
Knowing all the above the order of events is;
CO2 Bottle,
expansion chamber,
regulator,
gun.

If you have the expansion chamber after the reg in theory all it will do is become a volumizer for the valve. Albiet a very inefficient one.

Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys
[/B]

Following this order, I take it the theory is to allow the CO2 to convert to a gas in the expansion chamber thereby allowing only a gas to enter the regulator.

So if the regulator regulates the PSI of the gas entering the gun, is this all that is needed to make a marker a "low pressure" gun?

[elTwitcho]

That and a change of springs if you're using a blowback (which you are). You're going to need to buy a softer main spring, or you're gun just aint gonna work. At all. But making a gun LP is pretty easy, just regulate the pressure down, and change the spring. You'll also need a volumizer (that little tube that sticks out of the valve under the barrel) to hold more air, because LP requires a higher volume of air to send a paintball on it's way than HP does. But if you're thinking of going LP, by all means do it. It's quieter, has an all around nicer feel, less ball breaks, and you can say your gun is "tricked out" :P.

[MuckRaker]

Originally posted by elTwitcho
You'll also need a volumizer (that little tube that sticks out of the valve under the barrel) to hold more air, because LP requires a higher volume of air to send a paintball on it's way than HP does.

So, does that mean that LP requires more gas than HP, which in turn would mean fewer shots from the tank. Also, is the volumizer the same as a Low Pressure Chamber.

PMI says their Ram Air Chamber on the G2 markers acts as a "low pressure chamber." If that's true, would I need a volumizer?

[Irongut99]

Another question if a low pressure chamber is a "volumizer"
Does the stock one on my TL+ hold enough volume??
Along with the softer spring would I need a differnt bolt or valve other then the stock TL+ to achive "low pressure"?

[MuckRaker]

Originally posted by Irongut99
Another question if a low pressure chamber is a "volumizer"
Does the stock one on my TL+ hold enough volume??
Along with the softer spring would I need a differnt bolt or valve other then the stock TL+ to achive "low pressure"?

Hey man, I think Low Pressure is a conspiracy to make us spend more Money!! :eek:

[TLplus84]

the stock one works fine. I have a stock low pressure chamber on my low pressure tl plus, and unless you are going to go sub 250 psi, you'll be fine. I run my gun a hair under 300 psi, and i have no need for a 40 dollar aka lpc that will dot he same thing as a stock kingman one will. :D

[Irongut99]

TLPlus84

What about the valve and bolt upgrade from stock??
Are they needed or is the regulator + spring change enough??
I see on your signature the you have upgraded yours??

[Auctionjunkie!]

Originally posted by MuckRaker
Originally posted by Auctionjunkie!
Knowing all the above the order of events is;
CO2 Bottle,
expansion chamber,
regulator,
gun.

If you have the expansion chamber after the reg in theory all it will do is become a volumizer for the valve. Albiet a very inefficient one.

Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys


Following this order, I take it the theory is to allow the CO2 to convert to a gas in the expansion chamber thereby allowing only a gas to enter the regulator.

So if the regulator regulates the PSI of the gas entering the gun, is this all that is needed to make a marker a "low pressure" gun?

[/B]

The primary function of a regulator is to make the gun more consistant. The secondary function is to lower the operating pressure. There reaches a point where the operating pressure will be too low for stock parts. That's where you get into higher flow valves, low pressure chambers aka volumizers, spring kits, bolts, polishing, porting and some other tricks. Now we're getting into efficiency as well as LP. A very large part of LP is making the gun more efficient. In theory LP does use more air and needs more volume. As you attain proper LP you attain a higher efficiency. Now the scales balance out.
Make sense?
Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys

[MuckRaker]

>>>>The primary function of a regulator is to make the gun more consistant. The secondary function is to lower the operating pressure. There reaches a point where the operating pressure will be too low for stock parts. That's where you get into higher flow valves, low pressure chambers aka volumizers, spring kits, bolts, polishing, porting and some other tricks. Now we're getting into efficiency as well as LP. A very large part of LP is making the gun more efficient. In theory LP does use more air and needs more volume. As you attain proper LP you attain a higher efficiency. Now the scales balance out.
Make sense?
Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys<<<<<<<

I think I'm still with ya, Professor Paintball. let me see. I'm using CO2 now.

(1) I'll need an expansion chamber and regulator, not just a regulator alone, cause I don't want liquid CO2 entering the Regulator.

(2) Regulator controls the PSI entering the gun, makes for more consistent/efficient use of gas.

(3) If I get regulator I'll need a new spring, at least, or to spend $$$$ on lots of upgrades.

[TLplus84]

You will defintly need a new bolt and valve. Since you already have a low pressure chamber, you won't need one.and NO you don't need a new one. Like i sed before, i use my stock lpc and i am running sub 300 psi. But the Bolt and the valve are a must. The stock internals cannot handle the low pressure. Also, you will need a gas efficient barrel. Don't go for something like the Smart Parts AA. Go with something like a AKA Javelin, Lapco Autospirit, or a J&J Ceramic barrle. A small bore barrel would be preferable.

[TLplus84]

oh and i forgot..polish your internals and get softer springs. Less tension=less air to move the parts. I use the weakest valve and striker springs that came in my spring kit. I think that helps. I know the internal polishing does.

[Irongut99]

With all the parts in and polished.
What sort of "tweaking"&"testing" are needed?

[Auctionjunkie!]

I think I'm still with ya, Professor Paintball. let me see. I'm using CO2 now.

(1) I'll need an expansion chamber and regulator, not just a regulator alone, cause I don't want liquid CO2 entering the Regulator.

(2) Regulator controls the PSI entering the gun, makes for more consistent/efficient use of gas.

(3) If I get regulator I'll need a new spring, at least, or to spend $$$$ on lots of upgrades.


:) Thanks!
You don't necessarily "need" an expansion chamber. I actually suggest not having both. A regulator to a very small extent will turn the liquid into gas. It's not as efficient as an expansion chamber and some regs are better than others. If your CO2 is on a remote and is vertically carried or on-gun if the duckbill has a 15 degree or more tilt then you shouldn't need an ex chamber.

You may or may not need a new spring. It depends on how low you want to go with the pressure. The spring determines 2 things, how hard/fast the valve is opened and how long the valve stays open. On Autocockers it also helps define how hard the trigger pull is. Focusing on Spyders/Piranhas, the softer the spring the less the velocity and the less pressure to recock the gun. Remember these are blowbacks and a percentage of the gas is used to recock them. You have to find the right balance of spring and pressure to achieve the velocity you want. 'Cockers are easier to run at lp because they don't use blowback to recock, they use the front pnuematics.

What gun do you have? If it's the TL+ or Shutter it should already have a reg. Turn the pressure down to about 500 psi and then adjust the spring pressure to get 285 psi. Turn the pressure down some more and adjust the spring accordingly. I've gotten Shutters and TL+s down to about 350 psi before they stopped cocking. This was with only the stock parts. Add a high flow valve, polish everything for max efficiency, add a better bolt and you can get them down to about 280-300 psi. TLPlus84 is correct in that you need a good paint to barrel match. If you have a sloppy fit then efficiency goes down, too tight of a fit will cause the pressure needed to go up and increase ball breakage.

One of the things I like about paintball is that you can tinker with the guns. I've modified a lot of different guns and still enjoy doing it. (I'm working on making my Bushmaster 2000 triggerless!!)
Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys

[Edited by Auctionjunkie! on 01-25-2001 at 10:05 AM]

[Irongut99]

How would you interpret this??

"Slap the reg on the gun and get the springs right and see what it does after
that. Often, a reg will make all the difference in the world....drill out
the air passages in the front ASA assembly, that will also help quite a bit
with flow...." ????

[Auctionjunkie!]

Originally posted by Irongut99
How would you interpret this??

"Slap the reg on the gun and get the springs right and see what it does after
that. Often, a reg will make all the difference in the world....drill out
the air passages in the front ASA assembly, that will also help quite a bit
with flow...." ????




I'm not sure. Where did it come from?
Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys

[Irongut99]

From Terry at G3 paintball.
The front piece that the LPC is screwed into.......from the LPC side to the
valve side is an air passage, and there is also a vertical air passage that
intercepts the horizontal air passage.....those holes are way too small and
need to be drilled out larger, or you have to replace the front assembly
with one that's made to flow more air....

http://www.g3pb.com great site!!

[Auctionjunkie!]

Originally posted by Irongut99
From Terry at G3 paintball.
The front piece that the LPC is screwed into.......from the LPC side to the
valve side is an air passage, and there is also a vertical air passage that
intercepts the horizontal air passage.....those holes are way too small and
need to be drilled out larger, or you have to replace the front assembly
with one that's made to flow more air....

http://www.g3pb.com great site!!

Terry knows his stuff. On the first page of this thread I stated "....That's where you get into higher flow valves, low pressure chambers aka volumizers, spring kits, bolts, polishing, porting and some other tricks...." What Terry's talking about is porting the input passages.

Dan
Manager, Team Wiseguys

[Irongut99]

I just got out the old drill press found which drill bit fit and went a size larger. Do you think that's enough?

[NickR]

Does anyone know where you can get like diagrams or instructions on how to do all the tinkering and setting up for low pressure? And how do you put a reg. after an x-chamber, where does it go on the gun? I'm kinda new as you probibly guessed, so i need you to treat me like a retard and give every last detail.

[Counterfeit]

Nick, you don't put both a reg and an ex-chamber.

[NickR]

I was just wondering if it would be a good idea to have a PMI regualtor and an anti-siphon tank. Does anyone know where i can get an anti-siphon tank for cheap? :)

[A damn fool]

It works great, the mpi reg and anti siphon, no lequid in my gun. U can get a tube put in your gun for 7 bucksat ur pro shop, or buy an on/off tnak with one allready in it. THe reg and antisihon utbe work ad good as an ex chamber, but regulate the eiar.

U dont need and ex chamebr and reg. If u run remote, it is an ex chamber, thats the best way to put an ex chamebr in forn of a reg

[jrr112]

how would u set up both an x-chamber and a regulator on a gun?

[Counterfeit]

You don't put both on.

[Silent Knight]

I run Co2 on my Spyder TL+ how would i go about adding a regulator to my gun and still keep my expansion chamber if the regulator is supposed to be after the expansion chamber.

[Silent Knight]

http://www.pbreview.com/fpics/Silent Knight030201025702Core Co2 Perf Reg.jpg

"The Core Co2 performance regulator is the most innovative and feature loaded Co2 Improvement System (CIS) on the market today. This setup is superior to all others on the market due to its unique 2 stage system. The first stage is the Thermal Exchange Unit. In the first stage the Co2 is converted from a liquid to a gaseous form by using a fin design to transfer heat from outside of the chamber. In the second Regulator stage you can control the operating pressure being put into your marker for pressure optimization. The Regulator is fully adjustable, and unlike other regulators on the market, the gauge measures the actual delivery pressure into the gun, not meaningless tank pressure"


$99.99

-- as quoted from http://www.paintballonline.com


what do you guys think?