Well it's about .... actually interesting topic inside

[Fen]

So what do you think? With markers like the M3 Black Dragun are the days of 1500 dollar angels and other high high priced markers about over?

I mean how much of a difference can there REALLY be in the parts. I can see some variation for manufacturing processes and exceptional materials BUT not the kind of price difference that exist now.

[Furious pb]

No, I don't think those days are over. You have to realize that some people have compulsive need to buy the most expensive gun possible. But, for cheapos like me, Draguns are great.

[paintballdiablo]

Well, those guns are on competely different levels. A black dragon, etc., are blowbacks with electro grips. Angels, Timmys, Impulses, etc., are run by an altogether different method.

[Furious pb]

true, but you have to realize, that you don't get 10x the product for the 10x the money. I'd say that draguns have at least 90% of the performance of any of the highest end semis.

[paintballdiablo]

True, but take a 200 dollar Dragon and a 400 dollar Impulse. You get a better barrel, and the Impy will be quieter, less kick, etc. It's even true for BK0's and whatnot, true electros will also be better than sear-trippers.

Hell, I hate Angels.....my Timmy new was 580, 1/2 the price of an Angel, and has 3 times the features. I will agree that it won't have 10 times the performance, but I also feel that Angels are overrated, overpriced, under underperforming. BUT, compare your BD to a Impy, and yes, the Impy will have 2 times the reliablility, 2 times less kick, 2 times quieter, and be 2 times more expensive.

[PMI_Guy]

ANgels, Timmys, etc. use solenoids to control the amout of air. blow backs (black draguns, piranhas, spyders) use a hammer to trip a pin, allowing air to push the ball out.

[Furious pb]

Originally posted by paintballdiablo
True, but take a 200 dollar Dragon and a 400 dollar Impulse. You get a better barrel, and the Impy will be quieter, less kick, etc. It's even true for BK0's and whatnot, true electros will also be better than sear-trippers.

Hell, I hate Angels.....my Timmy new was 580, 1/2 the price of an Angel, and has 3 times the features. I will agree that it won't have 10 times the performance, but I also feel that Angels are overrated, overpriced, under underperforming. BUT, compare your BD to a Impy, and yes, the Impy will have 2 times the reliablility, 2 times less kick, 2 times quieter, and be 2 times more expensive.

I agree totally, I was refering to angels. I've got bascily the same opion of them as you do. As far as kick goes on the dragun, yeah it's pretty bad, but now we have a delrin snap-back bolt, and that helps a ton. If I had the cash I would go straight for an impy. I don't know about reliability, BDs are pretty damn reliable. Yes, BD's are the loadest fricken gun on the market, but that really doesn't bother me. I've got no problem with your arguement, as long as you don't pull out the plastic crap.

[paintballdiablo]

Ah yes,the plastic.....:P

But I really think what is going to take off is the BK0's. They are cheap, 240, and are fully electro-pneumatic. I think those will be a big hit, and more companies, like Smart Parts, etc., are going to produce low end true electro to compete against each other.

[Furious pb]

BKO??????

[Silencer.1]

Really guys, this comparing apples to oranges. Electropneumatic guns are not the same as a stacked tube blowback with a solenoid to actuate the sear.

In an electropneumatic gun, a solenoid opens a valve allowing gas to move the hammer forward instead of a spring. The soleniod also uses gas to reset the hammer and bolt. It essentially works like an autococker, except that it is open bolt and works at the click of a button.

I do agree that an electroblowback is close to the performance of an electropneumatic, but not even. My black dragun e-1 just isn't as reliable as say.... an angel, or impulse.... because a computer controlled solenoid controls the firing sequence in those. A BD just doesn't have that kind of tolerances for gas flow and therefore usually isn't as consistant. I say "usually" because there is always the tricked out or factory perfection gun out there that just defies explanation and work beautifully.

However, this doesn't justify dropping $1500 on an IR3. In all actuallity, anything much over $800, isn't any better performance wise. There are a few phenominal revelations that do make the guns better. The ones that come to mind are the magnetic trigger on the emag, anti-chop eyes, and WDP's new opti-thing (talk about a copy cat company, trying to challenge the magnetic trigger of an emag, forshame......:finger: Guess I'll get off my soapbox now....ahem, continuing on....). Those little inventions along with the new level 10 automag kit are all really worth the money. After that you're paying for a name and a look, nothing more.

After playing with basically every gun out there, i can tell you, there is a difference performance wise. It's only about 10-20%, but it's there. You get what you pay for in quality too. I can garantee (sp?) that my BD will have parts on it wear out faster than those on any of the higher end guns.

In conclusion, I don't think that the high end guns are going to dye out :rolleyes: , I just think that there is going to be more diversity in the selections available.

[Silencer.1]

I think that the BK0's are going to be the new wave of cheap electros. They are looking very promising.

BTW, all that plastic crap......... What is a car made of? What is a Glock made of? What is a Splatmaster made of? Plastic keeps costs down and really isn't bad at all. Usually it's just as durable as it's aluminum counterparts. Besides it's not really the plastic everone thinks of. Usually it's actually a fiberglass and epoxy compsite. Very strong and very light.

[Sid]

Originally posted by Silencer.1
I think that the BK0's are going to be the new wave of cheap electros. They are looking very promising.

BTW, all that plastic crap......... What is a car made of? What is a Glock made of? What is a Splatmaster made of? Plastic keeps costs down and really isn't bad at all. Usually it's just as durable as it's aluminum counterparts. Besides it's not really the plastic everone thinks of. Usually it's actually a fiberglass and epoxy compsite. Very strong and very light.

Very true. Look at all the System X stuff.. poly barrels, breeches etc.

[paintballdiablo]

Yeah, BK0's will be the new trend. Look, it's made by a great company with a great reputation.

Ah, but plastic.....yes, a car is made out of plastic, but not main components. YOUR comparing apples to oranges. On a Black Dragon, Spyder, etc., the main mechanism to fire the marker, the grip and trigger, are plastic. Would you want your car's brake petal, accelerator, and motor mounts to be made of plastic? I wouldn't.

The plastic on BD's is just that, plastic. It's not composite, it's plastic. Fiberglass and epoxy makes fiberglass. Same thing as boat hulls, and when the two combine, it hardens, not makes a composite. Some plastics are Nylon reinforced, that's called FRN (fiberglass reinforced nylon), and thats not really considered plastic, it's cosidered more of a nylon resin.

The BD and equivalent markers have PLASTIC parts, get over it.

[Silencer.1]

Shheeessshhhh............... Ya didn't have to jump down my throat over it. :(

Sorry, you're right about the composite and resin thing, I was thinking bad to my r/c racing days. The car's bodies are made of a fiberglass and epoxy resin composite. I reread my last post and I realize I came over as a bit upity, I didn't mean to.

I wasn't trying to compare anything either, I was just stating that there are a lot of everyday things that are made of plastic that need to be durable. There are cars that have a frame and body built from pure plastic/resin. I'll try to find a link if I can. They were passing crash test last I knew.

[paintballdiablo]

Wasn't jumping down your throat....just trying to clarify things, so others don't get confused.

[specter542]

draguns can cycle faster than any gun...but ur not gonna get the performance of an angel outta them.......for beginners and non-beginners looking to spice up their play at a low cost, i think these guns hit the mark......im considering getting a dragun compact and then maxin' the hell outta it. they're cheap but quality.

[Silencer.1]

Actually the fastest cycling gun is currently the automag design. It allows for a cycling rates of greater than 20bps while the spyder clone design is limited at 20bps. The black dragun is also limited electronically to 10bps on the compact, e-1, e-2 designs and 13bps on the rest I believe. Don't get me wrong, it's a great gun for the price, heck I own one of the original e-1'a and I really like it! :) I know people like to max these guns out for cheap, but my approach is a bit different. For now I'm saving my pennies and I'm buying an automag and maxing the hell out of it!:tup: Not so I'm getting rid of the dragun since it'll make a great backup gun.

[Furious pb]

If your elctronically inclined you can take off the 13 bps governer. or you can get someone to do it for you, but who the hell can pull the trigger that fast anyway? If you get an automag, don't be like my dumb friend, run it on nitro.

[Silencer.1]

I already own a 48/3k steel, but I'm actively looking a 68/3k fiber right now. Nitro is something you really want even for the dragun.

BTW, I'm curious as to how many shots you guys are getting off your nitro tanks with the dragun? I'm getting a hopper and 3 140 pods, so about 600 shots from my 48/3k.

[Furious pb]

Only 600??? You should be getting something like 650 with all stock parts??? are you gonna sell your 48 if you get a 68??? I'm looking for nitro myself, but since I'm so damn cheap, I'm going for used. Let me know if your interested. I would definatly get a remote if I got a 68/3 tank if I were you.

[Silencer.1]

Actually, the general rule for determining how many shots you get from a tank is 10 shots per cubic inch at 3k psi and 15 shots per cubic inch at 4.5k psi. So, actually I'm already ahead of the curve since I should only be getting about 500.

When I do get a new tank I'll keep you in mind Furious. Mine is only 2 years old right now so it still has 3 years left. I don't think I'm getting a remote though, since a 68/3k fiber tank is pretty light and I tend to be sliding around all the time cause I'm a front/tape player.

[BeerPimp]

Silencer.1,

I have a stock black dragun and just got a 68/4500 crossfire tank. I took it out saturday and shot 1000 rounds and still have 1000+ psi. I don't remember the exact pressure at 1000 rounds but it was above 1000 psi. The tank was only filled to 4200 psi also.