Our Sport is Struggling to Survive

[Lord Kalo]

After the incidents in Manhattan, the Gary Holdren incident and now this one, in the post-September 11th world, I seriously question our sport's ability to survive. I'm not sure what the solution is but it seems that it is the non-paintball playing Talon wielding idiots that are giving our sport a bad name and a black eye. I'm in favor of banning all sub-$100 paintball markers from being sold in K-marts in order to make the tools of our sport unaccessible to those that would seek to defame the rest of our law abiding community. WAKE UP people! Our sport is at risk of becoming illegal very soon! All we need is a few more incidents like this and one by one states will begin to follow New York City's lead and abolish paintball out of existance. In the past, I believed that all of those cheap Brass Eagle POS'es were a gateway and stepping stone for newbies into the sport, but I no longer think this is true. Cheap markers make the trappings of our sport available to those who should not have access to them for a bargain.


Amateur jack*sses catch police attention

October 30, 2002 (CLEARWATER, Fla.) — Police came scrambling to respond to a reported drive-by shooting, but it turned out it was only a bunch of Jack*ss wannabes.

"When we first got the call it was for a drive-by shooting," said Clearwater Police spokesman Wayne Shelor, describing the Saturday, Oct. 26, incident.

Instead they found a car full of teens with a paintball gun and video camera, who had decided to imitate the stunts in *******, the new movie of outrageous pranks and stunts that topped the box office rankings last week.

"One of them had seen the movie with other friends," Shelor said.

"They just said, 'Hey let's do the same thing.'"

The teens -- four boys and a girl -- shot a 42-year-old man in the leg with a paintball pellet as he walked down the street. Panicked, the man called police.

"They decided, we've got a video camera, we'll do some stupid antics and vulgar stuff, and proceeded to do just that," said Shelor.

Police found the teens' silver Nissan, detained them, and reviewed their videotape, which showed them shooting the paintball gun. They admitted being inspired by *******.

The cassette also featured other amateur stunts, but Shelor declined to describe them. "They videotaped themselves in some vulgar situations," he said. "I don't want to elaborate."

After consulting with the man who was hit with the paintball and the youths' parents, they decided not to press charges.

"We felt the parents would handle the discipline," explained Shelor. "Neither alcohol nor drugs were involved, just a momentary lack of reason."

Crime Blotter, a weekly feature of ABCNEWS.com, is compiled by Oliver Libaw.


Last Updated: Oct 30, 2002

[kingalls]

I partially agree, and this is damn frustrating to see. While our sport thrives in the tournament and rec world, there remains a select group of absolute idiots bent on ruining things for everyone. If only there were a way of screening people for potential idiotic behavior prior to selling them markers, or guns, for that matter.

[The Terminator]

Heh, after I saw Jack*ss on Friday, my first thought after getting over the pain in my side from laughing so hard was, "Damn, a lot of dumb @sses are going to kill themselves after seeing this movie..." But instead you get morons shooting other people with paintball markers...

I think if any action is taken, minors should be barred from purchasing paintball markers (anything else, fine). It's always retarded teens doing this stuff (I am 17, but I never use my marker anywhere but on a paintball field), so just ban minors from purchasing the markers, and the problem is solved, IF there ever arrives a need to do anything. These are really nothing more than isolated incidents, however, so I can't understand how ppl get all worked up about a couple of morons. I can't stand the losers that go out and do stupid crap like shooting bystanders with paintball markers.

People have been beaten to death with baseball bats, and baseball hasn't been banned... If the sport was more popular, we wouldn't even care about news like this.

[Lord Kalo]

I agree with you, but the fact of the matter is that people are scared, the government is scared, nation is scared. In a time not so long ago, people were thrown in prison for socialist and communist beliefs. This war on terror is going to have far lasting effect on the American psyche. We either are going to have to become a more militaristic society and accept that the price for freedom is high, or we will see our civil liberties revoked, our rights trampled and our beloved sport taken away.

I agree with you, there will come a time in the near future where you will have to be over the age of 18 to purchase a paintball gun. In fact, I can imagine a future where the restrictions on playing paintball will be higher than actually owning a gun. Irregardless of what we may think, the police and the military recognize the benefits of training using paintball-like equipment. Many Counter-Terrorist and SWAT teams train using equipment very similar to what we have.

If we don't begin to self regulate our sport, the government will do it for us. As I alluded to earliers, this past week Sports Authority was reprimanded by the City of New York and forced to remove their paintball markers because they were in violation of a city code that prohibits the sale of black and grey "imitation" guns. Now, my understanding of this code was that it pertained specifically to Airsoft guns. Airsoft guns by definition are "imitation" guns, but at no time did I nor Sports Authority for that matter ever assume that it would pertain to a paintball marker. Regardless, the city subpoened both Tippmann and Kingman to track down other companys that might be selling and shipping equipment to Manhattan.

What made things worse is that every newspaper in Manhattan framed the story like it was some kind of scandal "Sports Authority selling fake guns". That is outright irresponsible. After September 11th, it is quite obvious that in the public eye our sport has no place in the healing process. Mind your Ps and Qs guys because a suspicious public watches your every move yearning to take away your joy.

[AK47]

The whole sport will be banned for afew idots.Take them out and the sport is fine

[Sudden Impact]

I doubt seriously that our sport will die or be banned...it's alot more popular than most people think...I guarantee you anyone that wants to ban paintball, wants to ban firearms also...

[Cocker Killer23]

I don't think the sport will be baned, thats like someone doing a drive by with a real gun and hunting geting banned.

[Pyro]

I started to think that when I talked a 13 yr. old out of buying a Blade to shoot some guy who had been mesing with him. I kind of like the no marker under $100 idea, that would stop #***% like the kid I dealt with, on the downside If you need a cheap backup marker youd be screwed. Wal-mart should not sell paintball guns at all IMO.

[Ebonclaw]

Personally, I think more ******* movies need to be made. Much more hardcore ones, like russian roulette with 5 bullets or something. That way, anyone dumb enough to live their life based on movie events would remove themselves from the gene pool in a somewhat entertaining fashion for the rest of the world.
I think anyone with any common sense would be happy to know that someone dumb enough to let their actions be influencd by a movie will probably end up dead sooner or later at an early age. It's actually fortunate that they admitted to being influenced by a movie as opposd to a bunch of kids buying a paintball gun and capping people out of the blue.

Anyone who wants to ban paintball should very carefully examine what teens are going to choose to do instead of paintball now that they can't play anymore and can't spend money on it.
I seriosuly expect that illegal activities would increase in greater numbers and be much more serious than the amount of paintball related crimes if paintball were banned.

[X_Brolly_X]

omg..... I am soooo tired of all these threads like "OMG some stupid ppl with talons shot somebody.....Somebody saw a paintball gun and did not like it!.....The sport is going to be banned forever just because some ppl don't understand!":rolleyes: Grow Up! Paintball is not going to be banned, anyone who tryes will have a big battle on there hands, the paintball apocalips is NOT comming. Lets just enjoy the sport, I doubt that anyone would actualy do something besides write a negative report on paintball, and if they did start to make some headway, they would have a nasty time with feild owners, players, sponsers, product manufactures, and most important ME! So shut up about all that stupid parnoid crap and enjoy the sport!:)

[thebluenu]

yah, but consider this, "you cannot play paintball ever again, no matter what, starting tmro" - i dunno, that would suck - but some ppl do gotta grow up, or at least die in some unfortunate way

[Pyro]

Originally posted by thebluenu
...decent impy that chirps


Does it really??

[CrazyB]

Too much money is being made in Paintball for it to be banned, especially in this economy, the government wants to make sure it collects it tax money from the paintball fields and sellers. Funny part is, jack *** the movie doesn't contain a paintball gun.

[Lord Kalo]

X_Brolly_X pull your head out of the clouds.

These problems will persist until something is done about it.
Now, I find it highly unlikely that anyone in the forums would be the cause of some irresponsible act. Unfortunately, we will be the ones that pay for the stigma associated with our sports because of these people that don't even play. If anyone needs to grow up it is you X_Brolly_X. You apparently live in a world where you obviously feel helpless to control your future. Where everyone else controls your destiny because you are unwilling to act assuming that everything will be all right in the end. You obviously have no belief in the importance of the press in shaping public attitudes and you clearly fail to understand that paintball as a sport has just received a black eye in the most widely read newspaper in the country. The sport is much more fragile than you think. Paintball has become a multi-million dollar sport, but this would mean nothing if it were suddenly labeled subversive, anti-social or even "un-American". I don't resent you X_Brolly_X, as a person, but I do resent your attitude that a problem does not exist and that everything will work its way out. Kingman and Tippmann, two of the largest manufacturers in paintball, caved to the City of New York's subpoena to supply names of resellers. It is quite clear that the "feild owners, players, sponsers, [and] product manufactures" that you are referring to would not put up much of a resistance if the sport was deemed unsavory.

In fact, there is a precursor to this event that involves our beloved Tippmann Pneumatics corporation. The reason Tippmann became involved with paintball was because the Federal Government deemed their products to be in violation of new laws regarding the banning of assault rifles. Tippmann manufactured belt fed semi and full auto 22 caliber mini-Browning machine guns being sold to civilians. Tippmann realized that the legal environment changed and in essense was forced to comply with the legal proclaimation irregardless if they had their supports and valid arguments against the interpretation.

X_Brolly_X you obviously have forgotten about the attempt to ban paintball from the city of Baltimore almost a year from the day of September 11th.

Unfortanately, the timing could not be worse for our sport. The sport as a whole is in an expansion phase and as a result is gaining more and more attention. Because the sport was merely at a grassroots level for the past 20 years, it for the most part, was ignored or merely overlooked by the "knee-jerk" liberals dead set on banning anything that they found morally or socially offensive. But now with the sport growing and becoming more visible in the public, it is more important than ever to make sure that the public receives the right message. Paintballers are responsible members of the public that are law abiding just like everyone else. These actions that depict our sport in a false light not only serve to hinder the growth of the sport, but also undermine the years of work of others to keep it legal. Many of you take the legal status of our sport for granted. Ray Gong fought a lawsuit in court just to keep the sport legal in the state of New Jersey. All of you Jersey players owe your right to play to this man who stood up to the critics and lay the groundwork for what you enjoy today.

Attempts to ban the sport have come and gone over years. I fear that September 11th will serve as another excuse for another round of these attempts to start popping up. Nationwide, our sport is at risk unfortanately at a time when it is at its highest point ever for public acceptance.

Trust me folks, the beliefs about our sport are in the winds and the only way that we can ensure that our sport will be around is if we make sure that it is properly understood and we prevent others from ruining it for us. Indecision and indecisiveness from the core community will ultimately lead to the sport's demise. It is incorrect and unhelpful for you to shrug off your responsibility of protecting the sport. Its future is fragile and never more so than now.

---------------------------------------

Proposed Baltimore Ban to be Revised Friday, September 13, 2002

Andrew @ 1:58 am PST

Sept. 12, 2002, at a public hearing held by a subcommittee of the Baltimore City Council, paintball supporters testified to oppose Councilperson Holton's proposal.

The proposal is to ban the possession and sales of paintball markers in the City.

Testifying in opposition were local field and store owners, players, parents, members of industry, and attorneys, specifically attorneys from ****'s Sporting Goods. ****'s presents paintball's major annual event, the International Amateur Open.

Written opposition, facts, and letters, were sent to the Council members by many players and companies. This included a lengthy factual presentation by APG.

No one appeared to testify to support the proposal.

Councilperson Holton said during and after the hearing that her paintball marker proposal is being revised. A major reason for the change is the large amount of information provided to the Council about paintball prior to the hearing.

Also, information presented at the hearing included an explanation of how Federal law pre-empts the attempt to ban possession and sales of markers by the City.

Paintball supporter Phillip Craig reports that no vote was taken at the meeting, and that there was a definite stated willingness by the council to work with paintball supporters, attorneys and businesspeople to revise the proposal. Council members' concerns included misuse of paintball markers and violence as they wish to keep the streets of Baltimore as crime-free as possible.

News from APG Newsletter.

[Lord Kalo]

History of Paintball in New Jersey

http://www.topgunpaintball.com/History_of_Paintball.html

Educate yourself.

The day we stop exercising and protecting our rights are the day that those rights cease to exist. Paintball was deemed illegal before, there is nothing written in the laws of our states and country that would prevent it from reverting back if it were deemed necessary.

Cherish what we have and protect it from those that would seek to do it harm.

[Killer Kat]

We can make the difference. And we can start it here!

Believe this or not, having access to this site and posting intelligent, accurate information for the world to read helps our sport. And I hold the bar of expectation high for anyone who wishes posts here.

I encourage you to alert me (or any other mod) to posts that damage our reputation as responsible, lawabidding, members of this sport & our communities!

I'd also encourage each and everyone to help make this sport & this site recognized as the leader in paintball forums as well as reviews through each of your posts.

Together "all of us" can make a difference!

Thank you.~KK

[Plastik]

in december some show suppose to air on fox sports that would be about paintball ... so i think that whould bring ALOT of people to this sport...

[Hoplon]

Paintball is not going to be banned. Some points to consider.

1) While paintball markers can be used as a weapon, there are thousands of more dangerous things out there. A slingshot is infinitely more likely to injure a person than a talon is.

2) You play on a regulated field. The SPORT of paintball will not be banned as no one is getting hurt while the games are in play. It's people who don't even play the game that are doing damage.

3) Paintball may seem morally wrong to those who have no concept of how it is played but that clam doesn't hold water when compared to paintball in actuality. The people who want paintball banned want to ban a game that only exists in their paranoid eye. Outlaw airsoft comes closer to that those people have a mental picture of.


By constantly discussing banning paintball like they even have a legitimate reason to ban it you are hurting us, not helping. The bottom line is that paintball does more good than bad and if they seriously looked into the sport they would see that. Stop worrying and go play some paintball!

[Lord Kalo]

In regards to the Sports Authority Case in Manhattan, the New York City Consumer Affairs Commissioner has effectively expanded the definition of imitation guns to include paintball guns, depending on the hearing, we'll learn more about how the City intends to define this interpretation. Many of us in the forums are interpreting the expansion of the definition to apply solely on the basis of paintball marker color: being black or grey. But in reality, the verdict is still up in the air. Materials may come into play in that there is mention that imitation guns that do not fit the criteria for being illegal should be marked with bright colors, transparent in some areas, and clearly distinguishable from a real firearm. Involved at this time is a national sports equipment retailer, and two of the largest paintball equipment manufacturers in the industry. It is a shame that the majority of the people in the forums are being complacent and thinking that it can't happen to them. Believe me folks, it has already begun.

I think what happens in Manhattan will have broad effects throughout the nation and will set a precedent. That's all they need to take the anti-paintball crusade to your neighboorhood or neck of the woods.

Although the differences between paintball markers, imitation firearms and firearms may be completely clear to us, I believe that a legal precedent is being set while the paintball community looks away. This is the real threat.

[Shadow221]

I for one enjoy when these kinda things happen. It's keeps the sport small. If paintball were to grow I'd be playing 80 vs 80 instead of 30 vs 30 at my local field. And that would suck horribly considering it's a 3-man field:(

[heyheyhey]

im not moving blame, but it seems to me that that should be blamed partially on the moivie, because it first inspired their idea to do this extremely idiotic thing, but i am also in favor of removing guns from walmart, kmart, and other chain department stores.

[LadderingABC_Yu]

after reading everyone's posts i think that paintball won't b banned.
1. they could make us keep our markers @ our feild:| (i'd rather have my baby b taken away 4 a few days then 4ever)
2. how we gonna sell our markers? gonna b hell raisen
3. ban paintball in stores that aren't pro shops:rolleyes: yes no more brass eagle (could that mean no more jt and viewloader?):confused: it really wouldn't matter jt makes good mask but vforce is the best, 12v revy isnt' that good b/c pros get the good hoppers. rico ak is better.:D
BANNING PAINTBALL ALL 2GETHER IS JUST PLAIN WRONG:pissed:

[X_Brolly_X]

OMG! You guys! No one that I am aware of has dedicated themselves to fight for OR against paintball! Its a waste of time to worry about it untill something actualy happens. I am not saying that if there was enough support that they could not bann paintball, I'm just saying they wont/can't. It is the fastest growing extreme sport in the country and it is just that... A SPORT! Paintball itself is not violent or bad, true a few people have done bad things with paintball guns, but thats not going to stop paintball from being huge, and it is not going to get it banned! They may put some restrictions on paintball guns, but who cares! As long as your playing on a field, and using proper safety equipment, there is no way that anyone could convince anybody to ban the entire sport! I now wish that a mod would close this thread because its bringing all the paranoid ppl out of the wood works and geting other ppl scared.

[Digital]

No, our sport is NOT struggleing to survive, and I also belive those punks used that move as a scapegoat to say they were influenced and get a lesser punishment. I've seen similar things. Paintball is in no danger of anything even in this post-9/11 world. Hell if anything its helped. That "war" image everyone complained about has gotten more people to my local feild than I can count. Here in NC Lots of people come out because they want a war-type game. Now they are surprised when they see what its really like but hooked none-the-less. What pisses me off is the media using paintball as a hook in stories. Making it look like were a bunch of punks who look for trouble. I don't belive someone old enough to drive would say "hey they did it now we can too" thats BULL****! Like I said there using it to try and get a lesser sentence. things are changing folks. In my short time playing even I can see it. When I started I didn't see as many young players and whole FAMILIES playing, now the field looks weird without those kinda things. its not the sport it was, its slow BUT SURLY becoming a family thing...

[Lord Kalo]

I'm glad that an effort has been made by a well informed individual to organize a petition against a potential misinterpretation and the possible expansion of the definition of an imitation gun in the New York City Metro area to include paintball markers.

One thing I would like to note is that no one stood up in favor of the ban in Baltimore. This tells you something, it really doesn't take much to set the turn of events in motion, but it will take all of our efforts to hold it back.

I salute those who have contributed to this thread and who have decided to sign the online petition located at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/pb101/petition.html

To give naysayers a better idea about what we are up against if this does go through, let me post the actual text of the Ray Gong story in New Jersey. I put up the link but it seems that no one read it. It is by far one of the most interesting stories I have ever read.

Don't think for a minute that this won't be us if a ban is put in place in New York.

History of Paintball in New Jersey

Top Gun Paintball Games' owner, Raymond Gong, founded and legalized paintball in New Jersey on May 2, 1988. Prior to winning his lawsuit, paintball play was considered illegal in New Jersey. The NJ State Police, based on the interpretation of NJ firearms laws by the State Attorney General's Office, considered paintball guns to be firearms. Thus, potential owners of paintball guns needed both a valid Firearms ID card along with a Pistol Purchase Permit for each paintball "gun" they wanted. Even if a player followed these rules for the purchase or ownership of the paintball gun, it could be considered Assault and Battery if the "firearm" was discharged at another player. Any would-be paintball player in New Jersey ran the risk of being arrested. Thus early New Jersey paintball players had to journey several hours each way to New York or Pennsylvania to play. Many NJ players "secretly" and "illegally" owned paintball guns.

In 1987, Ray filed a lawsuit challenging the States interpretation that paintball guns were firearms. The Monmouth County Prosecutor's Office and the State Attorney General's Office contended that the paintball guns were firearms for several reasons. First, since paintball guns used CO2 cartridges, they were firearms since one definition of a firearm involves the use of cartridges. Next, paintball guns were firearms since they used compressed gas to discharge a projectile. Finally, paintball guns were "destructive devices" since they fired a projectile greater than .60 caliber.

At that time, Ray had read an article in Action Pursuit Magazine about a player named Bud Orr out in California who had made his own paintball gun using a refillable CO2 tank and could fire .68, .62 and .50 caliber paintballs. Some of you "older" paintball players will probably remember the .62 caliber was used in the first full automatic paintball gun, the Tippmann SMG (Sub-Machine Gun), and the .50 caliber was used in the Crossman .357 Magnum pistol. Ray immediately called Bud Orr and convinced him to make a .50 caliber version of his Sniper pump gun to be used in New Jersey and for evidence at the upcoming trial.

The .50 caliber Sniper with the "constant air" tank was chosen for several reasons. First, it did not use a "cartridge", but rather a refillable CO2 "constant air" tank. Next it used a .50 caliber projectile which was greater than 3/8 inch and was also smaller than the .60 caliber of a "destructive device." Technically, the .62 caliber paintballs were actually .60 caliber which meant they also did not fit under the greater than .60 caliber definition of a destructive device. Ray believed that the standard .68 caliber paintball gun would fall outside the definition of being a firearm under the current NJ laws but presented several more options for the state to consider. Can you imagine one possible scenario that would have players in New Jersey using only .50 caliber paintball guns to this day?

Ray also decided to use Russell Maynard and Jessica Sparks as expert witnesses for the trial along with Bud Orr. Russell was the original and current editor of Action Pursuit Games magazine at that time. Jessica was both an attorney in California, avid paintball player and board member of paintball's first industry and player association, the International Paintball Players Association. Bud was to be the critical technical expert on paintball guns. However, Russell and Jessica were needed to explain what paintball was all about since the court had no idea what it was. Also, it was felt that an explanation of the game and the existence of a "regulatory" body promoting rules, regulations and safety would showcase paintball as a sport and not just as a "bunch of survivalists running around in the woods shooting each other."

On April 14, 1988 the trial began. The Honorable Judge A. Milberg presided over the case. During the course of the trial, the Judge wanted a demonstration of the paintball "guns" which we carefully kept calling paintball "marking devices." The demonstration was made over at the Monmouth County Police target range. Both .68 and .50 caliber paintballs were fired at various targets including white coated backboards, cardboard cutouts of "criminals" and a styrofoam head. However, the Judge wanted to see what the impact was on a human. Russell volunteered to be the "target." We gave him a set of JT goggles and covered him with a plastic garbage liner to protected his suit and proceeded to put him at the receiving end of the target range. Bud loaded up the .50 caliber Sniper and proceeded to shoot Russell about a dozen times. The paintballs wouldn't break due to the "stealth" nature of the plastic bag. Finally, one struck him in the sternum and broke. It also punctured the plastic liner leaving a "blood" red trail on his white shirt. Unfortunately, .50 caliber paintballs were only made with red enamel paint. However, it did prove to the Judge that being hit with a paintball was not "deadly". A videotape of this incredible demonstration is available at the Top Gun store. It will be made into a viewable or downloadable video in the near future on this website.

One of the key points in the trial was when Bud was testifying. Bud pulled out a copy of Speer's Reloading Manual for Rifle and Pistol and pointed out the definition of a "cartridge" in the Illustrated Glossary section. A "cartridge" was defined as a complete unit of ammunition assembly containing case, powder, primer and bullet. This effectively destroyed the prosecutor's argument that the the CO2 cartridge used in paintball "markers" was the cartridge used in the definition of a firearm. The trial lasted two days and required only a Judge's ruling since a jury is not used in Prerogative Writ cases.

On April 22nd, Judge Milberg ruled that paintball "guns" were not firearms under NJ Firearm laws, thus paving the way for paintball in New Jersey. His decision stated that paintball guns were not firearms since the definition of a cartridge for firearms also included internal combustion and that even though gas powered devices are covered under firearm laws, they also state that the projectile emitted must be less than 3/8 inch (.375 caliber). Thus a paintball pistol or rifle cannot be considered firearms under the current law. In addition, Judge Milberg ruled that the paintball guns were not "destructive devices" since those weapons also involve uncontrollable combustion. Judge Milberg's ruling was officially signed on May 2nd, the official birthday of paintball in New Jersey. That made New Jersey the last state in the entire United States to legalize paintball. A dozen foreign countries approved paintball before New Jersey. Copies of the news articles from the trial will be posted on this site in the near future.

The case was appealed by the Prosecutor's Office. However, the Appellate Court unanimously upheld Judge Milberg's Superior Court ruling on November 22, 1988. Information can be found in more detail in a book written by Evan Nappen, an attorney specializing in NJ gun laws, titled "Nappen on New Jersey Gun Law".

That's the good news. The bad news follows. Ray planned to open a paintball field on a 120 acre piece of property that he owned in Marlboro township. However, the Monmouth County Prosecutor sent a letter to each of the mayors in Monmouth County telling them that they might lose this case and thus each township should change or enact ordinances if they wanted to ban or control paintball facilities in their township. Marlboro reacted by removing the recreation use as an approved use from the zone in which Ray's property was located. Thus instead of just applying for site plan approval, Ray now had to seek a use variance.

Ray first tried to open his paintball field as a club without physical facilities. His Grand Opening was set for September 22, 1988. The first games ever played at that site were attended by about two dozen players. The following Saturday, the entrance to the site was blocked by several township police cars under orders from the Mayor. The Zoning Code enforcer also issued several summons, citing that paintball was not a permitted use. Ray was required to appear in municipal court where his attorney successfully argued that although there was "activity", there were no permanent facilities. Since activities such as hunting were permitted, the summons was not valid. The Judge agreed with Ray's attorney's arguments. It was also agreed that Ray would go through the Use Variance process.


[cont.]

[Lord Kalo]

[cont.]

Big Mistake! Marlboro's Zoning Board meetings dragged out over a year. Rumors ran rampant that Ray was building some kind of survivalist or Neo-Nazi training camp. Ray himself was accused of being a Neo-Nazi or Skinhead. The Mayor was concerned about the "message" that it would send about violence to the children of Marlboro. The Mayor was also concerned about the "type" of people that would be attracted to Marlboro Township. Needless to say, Ray's application for a use variance for his paintball facility got turned down.

Undaunted, Ray took his case to Monmouth County Superior Court. In November 1990, the Honorable Judge L. Lawson ruled that the Marlboro Zoning Board acted "unreasonably, arbitrarily and capriciously in denying the Plaintiff a Use Variance to permit use of the land for a paintball facility." Thus Ray was finally about to have his Grand Opening in June of 1991. The Grand Opening was a big success but dark clouds hung overhead. Marlboro township appealed the Superior Court ruling. In October 1991, the Appellate Court overruled Judge Lawson's decision. Top Gun was force to shut down again.

When New Jersey's Supreme Court decided not to hear this case, the groundwork was started on a new lawsuit contending that Marlboro had illegally "taken" Ray's property. This lawsuit was to drag on for the next five years. Meanwhile, Ray was successful in opening a new paintball facility in Jackson township, their current site, in 1993. Actually, Ray had 5 Grand Openings in 5 years if you count the paintball field opened behind Top Gun Paintball Games first store located in Bayville, New Jersey. Finally, both sides gave up on the "taking" lawsuit and settled the case after "wasting" at least a million dollars in personal and taxpayer monies.

This story should have a happy ending. Top Gun just celebrated the 10th anniversary of legalized paintball in New Jersey this past September with the largest every paintball event in New Jersey history. However, dark clouds are gathering overhead again. This past Halloween saw the most every occurrences of paintball-related acts of vandalism. Drive-by shootings all around New Jersey as well as the rest of the country are up and increasing in number. The media is more than happy to cover these "colorful" stories. Several towns are passing ordinances to prohibit playing paintball on public properties while others are aimed at restricting the use and transportation of paintball guns in towns throughout New Jersey and other states. New local and state laws could intentionally or inadvertently prohibit paintball in this state or others throughout the United States.

With the explosive growth of paintball in the past year and the availability of paintball equipment and supplies in the mass market, the paintball "industry" is facing a crossroad of sorts. Top Gun strongly urges all players to play safely and follow all established safety rules.

[From: http://www.topgunpaintball.com/History_of_Paintball.html]

[mrvile]

Ya know, I've noticed that its all the back-yardie *****holes and morons that do this kind of stuff to the sport. The general public doesn't understand paintball as it is supposed to be, they see a bunch of kids running around with guns in masks. If people in general could see paintball as its supposed to be, they would agree with us, its simply the BEST SPORT we have come up with. The main problem is that people only hear about the tragedies that are associated with paintball. When we try to tell them the joys of the sport they can sometimes think that your just boasting and exaggerating your stories and making it sound like your a war hero. But when you tell them of an incident at a feild it sticks in their head and they gather so many of these that they just label paintball as a bad thing. In an earlier post someone mentioned people wanted to play a war game and found out paintball is not warlike at all. Some people are concerned about how dangerous it is shooting "guns" at each other.

Now when you are playing at a feild they have rules and procedures just like any other game. These are here to make it a safe sport. If they are violated they are followed with penalties and punishments because you can be putting more than yourself at risk of injuries. We all know even following all the rules that it is still dangerous because it IS an adventure sport which is played in natural surroundings. So of course someone is going to trip over a rock, twist their ankle and have to quit, it will never be completely safe, sadly. ANd these are the only things the public ever hears about the game, because for some reason bad news travels faster than the good. We need to switch these two and tell people that is is a good thing.

We need to invite people to play with us, let them use some of our other equipment and let them experience it instead of standing outside the circle. Invite your family including your kids wife, or in some cases your parents. You can also talk to your employer about one of those horrible company picnics being changed into a game of paintball. If you cant convince them to do that, invite them individually for them to see for them selves. Just invite more people, after all its more fun to play with people you know right?

[TrUeMaNsHoW90]

ahhh 3 really long posts:crazy:


and the view on paintball gets worse during homecoming week and such, when there is "wars" in the streets for the seniors' flag and stuff. cars, people, houses, animals get lit up for no reason o ther than some drunk juniors and seniors playing capture the flag.

im actually ashamed to say i play paintball at my school. everyone associates paintball with vandalism, very few actually know it even IS a sport, or game meant to be played to have fun, not for vandalism. *end of rant*

[tonysk83]

yea i didnt read one of them, to long, anyways there is one reason paintball wont be banned 7,678,000 particapate in it every year, thats alot, also another reason is for every 4000 people that play paintball 1 will be hurt, that means 1915 painballer players ge injured evyyear, which is not alot at all. Also 67,000 paintball guns are sold every year in america, next there are 1160 paintball shops in the us, also paintball brings in ALOT o money every year, which means more taxes, mor emoney for the government. Paintball getting banned is liek banning skateboarding, or snowboarding, they haev close to the same number particpants, no go crazy paintball wont get banned, in my life time at least

[Ebonclaw]

On the one hand, who we are and what we do should have no bearing on what other people do as they portray themselves as one of us. Unfortunatly, it does. While our sport has grown larger than ever in the past few years, it is still in danger of being lost. I do not believe an outright BAN could happen nationwide or anything, but I do believe restrictions imposed that affect us as players and ake it harder, or impossible for some of us to play, will cause the weekend warrior, the person on who the sport thrives, to dwindle to the point that shops will shut down, as they are not profitable, and consequently, fields will shut down....not because they are ordered to, but because there are not enough players to justify the expense. They struggle as it is in places where there are NO paintball legislations. As the sport loses players and shops begin to close, vandalisms happen regardless and remain unaffected. The media sees paintball more in the context of the police beat and less in the context of frontpage IAO Vegas (yeah, right lol).
Eventually.....we will kill ourselves because while it is impossible to outright BAN paintball nationwide, it is possible to make players lives so miserable to play, that they decide to quit. Imagine having to have a license that has to be renewed every year. Or letting a field take care of your $1400 baby because you can't take it home. Or both.
Players are having a hard time playing in some areas because there may only be one field that is struggling, but alive. All it takes is one registration like that and the field could lose enough players to shut down...and then the only paintballing in THAT town is outlaw ball, which will sooner or later come under attack from vandalism or similar things happening, and finally, the last few outlaw ballers will have to quit because of a new law passed.
It's hard enough to fight a case when there is a field as big as Top Gun and a large player community. Now take away the field....the one that is struggling as it is....there's no sport image left in the town...they cannot justify keeping paintball and vandalism for a couple guys that run around in the woods by themselves.
Very easy to happen.

[quejerpwacky]

On one hand, we say that we need to get more people playing paintball. This is true. We do need more people playing the sport, so that they can understand what it means to play paintball, and what it means to be a paintballer.

But then you (or somebody else, whatever), turns around and says we should ban BE, and all markers under $100, and not let them be sold in chain stores.

How exactly, will this make the sport more accessible to the newbie? (Oh, by the way, if your going to tell me that newbies suck, and we don't need them, then please just be quiet. Don't say anything. You're wrong. I don't care if it's your opinion. Your opinion is wrong).

We do need to get more people into the sport, and we need companies like BrassEagle to do it.

You know what they do at the Wal-Mart in my hometown? If you want to buy a paintball gun, or ammo, or anything out of the paintball case, they ID you. They ID you just like they do at the liquor store. They write down your name, they write down your address, and they write down the serial number off the gun you bought, (if applicable).

Not only does this policy make it very easy to track down any idiots who misuse their markers, it also acts as a huge detriment to anyone before they do something stupid.

So rather than b*tch about BE SUXXXXX!!1!!, why don't you try to get your local chain store to implement the same policy? This will show to the members of the community that there are dedicated, legitimate paintballers, and that they are separate and apart from the idiots.

And to all you B.E. flamers: You don't use one. So stop b*tching. It's really, really annoying.

[Lord Kalo]

The argument is not that the sport is struggling to survive because of an inability to grow. The reality of the matter is that the sport is at an all time high right now. There are an estimated seven million paintball players right now and the tournament scene has grown larger than ever. Now, the problem is this, while the sport has matured and public acceptance has grown, the sport is largely unregulated from the point of view of who can gain access to paintball equipment. Paintball equipment is largely different from other equipment associated with vandalism like skateboarding, snow boarding or roller-blading. In an age of drive-by shootings and mounting international terrorism it is easy to see how public paranoia can make paintball as a sport an easy target. Because we fail to even make an attempt of preventing these infractions against the sport, our complacency as a community may lead to someone else making a decision for us. Our sport is struggling to stay alive because most are apt to dismiss the problems as unremediable and someone else's problem when, in fact, the problem is our own.

I agree with you that something needs to be done in order to separate the perception of a connection between our sport and vandalism. I think it is safe to say that anyone who has plays paintball on a regular basis would never engage in an act of vandalism or assault and battery stemming from a drive-by. But, these acts continue to occur largely as a result of the actions of non-paintballers. The actions of these non-paintballers puts our sport in jeopardy. Not only does it ruin the repuation of our sport, but it also puts victims of these crimes at risk. A paintball has never killed anyone, but because victims of drive-bys do not have adequate safety equipment, there is a risk of them sustaining long-term life changing injuries such as losing an eye. I'm sure that any moderator at pbreview would support the idea that this newgroup is a place not only for information about products, but would also like to think of this place as a forum for us to exchange ideas about how to shape the future of the sport. So, instead of just summarily rejecting the idea that a nationwide ban cannot ever happen, I would challenge them to take advantage of this opportunity to weigh in on how we can further prop up the sport while ensuring that elements that might undermine our progress are addressed.

From what I gather, there have been four methods that were suggested to ensure that paintball markers would remain in the right hands.

1. Taking all sub-$100 markers off the shelves
2. Restricting the sale of markers to those over the age of 18
3. Restricting the sale of markers to pro-shops
4. ID'ing each and every buyer at purchase

Allow me to comment on each point:

1. This is the recommended solution that I originally promoted. The reasoning being that people tend to place an importance on things based on what it costs them as opposed to the effect their actions have on others. This essentially is a self-imposed barrier to entry that ensures that access to this sport is restricted to those that can competently and adequately engage in the sport, while deterring those that would purchase the "cheap" markers for the sole purpose of vandalism or joy-ride drivebys. The biggest argument against this proposition is that it will hinder growth of the sport but I do not believe this to be the case.

Anyone that engages in the sport does not do so with a $25 pump action brass eagle talon or samurai. Those markers are usually used by kids running around in their backyard playing "outlaw" paintball which I am largely against because it can be dangerous without adequate supervision, but this is another argument. The sport has grown large enough that people interested in learning about the sport or trying it out can visit an organized, safe referee'd field. This way they can learn about the sport the right way and about the safety measures that should be followed. People complain about the cost of playing at a field, but let's face it, paintball is by no means a cheap sport.

I think the barrier to entry method would be a good method to protect our sport because it does not directly discriminate against age, almost ensures parent knowledge of the posession of the equipment and it removes inferior products from store shelves.

I personally believe the best entry level markers that any newbie should purchase are stacked tube spyder-type blow backs and tippmann Custom 98s that run just above the $100 mark. They are decent markers and newbies won't feel outgunned, especially with the new e-trigger frames on the JTs, Spyder Esprits, E-99s, and Black Draguns. I think the cheap Brass Eagle pumps really do the sport a disservice. If we are going to introduce people to the sport, lets start them off on the right foot instead of lining someone else's pockets by selling them products they don't need. I don't think the cost is overly restrictive. Think about it, if a kid can't afford a $100 gun, how will he be able to afford a $70 or $80 case of paint?

2. The argument in favor of this option is much more difficult to make. In some ways I feel that an age requirment may be overly discriminatory against younger players. This could be easily implemented if it were a self regulatory policy of the industry, but I would be aggressively opposed to government involvement in regulation because this would open the door to further regulation of the sport.

3. While this is an interesting argument, I am unsure about the industry's support for this kind of regulation. While it might be a preferred method of introducing the sport, bigger markets such as chain sporting goods stores would be largely excluded. This would have to be implemented as a self-imposed industry regulation, but as we know from the past cartels and bargaining syndicates ultimately fail because of those willing to circumvent the policies agreed upon by organizational bodies without coercive enforcement powers. I like the idea, but it's most likely to fail because of the fact that paintball is a for-profit business industry.

4. I am most vehemently against the final proposed solution whereby "They write down your name, they write down your address, and they write down the serial number off the gun you bought, (if applicable)." I am all for personal liberty and privacy and this proposal is akin and a precursor to the controversial national gun database also referred to as the Brady law. I frown upon Walmart's infringement on your right to privacy, unfortunately you are willingly submitting to their attempts to do so.

These are my comments on the proposed solutions to keep paintball markers out of the hands of delinquents and troublemakers. I still believe that my original solution remains the best solution for the following reasons:

1. Paintball equipment manufacturers would most likely support the policy because it would remove inferior products from the market place while adding credibility to their own brands and products.

2. It could be easily implemented and would not unduly discriminate against age.

3. It would not reduce the profitability of the industry by restricting their channels for retail sales.

4. Would in no way invite an invasion of privacy on our already trampled personal rights.

I think the events in New York can serve as a positive event to stir a nation-wide debate in the paintball community to proactively find solutions to the problems that hinder the growth and prosperity of the sport. I'd like to see the sport grow even further and I'd like to see X-Ball become a success. These things can only occur if the right to engage in the sport is adequately protected by the industry, its players and its sponsors.

[Digital]

You people like to write essays everytime you post don't ya?

[Lord Kalo]

Did you read it?

If you did, I'd like to hear your comments on the content as opposed to its length.

Remember, this is a forum for an exchange of ideas to better the sport.

I believe we can only make progress by talking about the issues. The sport has grown large enough to deserve a nation-wide players organization that will be able to guide the growth of the sport and I think that the pbreview forums community might very well become the core to that future organization.

Let's comment on content and leave the side chatter on private messaging. If you wish to flame me, I invite you to do so over private messaging so that we can reserve this thread for constructive conversation.

[Digital]

Doing any of that wouldn't solve a damn thing. Remember this is all my opinion. Our sport is at an all time high. Whats hampering it is no exposer. The average person doesn't know much about paintball, They only hear about punks going around balling padestrians and little kids headed to the emergency room for eye injuries because they didn't use face protection. They don't see the paintball fields, tournies and all the regulated side of it that has people that know how to act around and with paintball guns. The underlying fact is no one knows what paintball really is. You can see this for yourself. Go up to someone who has never been around paintball and knows very little about it, with would be they know the name and it involves something that shoots projectiles and ask them what they think about it. Your response will be along the lines of I don't like the idea of people shooting at one-another, its unsafe, thats the wrong kinda crowd to be hanging around or something like that. Its exposer thats the problem... Yes all that would prevent some of those acts from taking place, but thats not the real problem. From what I gather, until it gets mass exposer, TV and/or a major sporting event picks it up, (IE: X-games, or Olymics) it won't grow to much, But it won't die anytime soon...

[Mutated Goose]

Originally posted by X_Brolly_X
OMG! You guys! No one that I am aware of has dedicated themselves to fight for OR against paintball! Its a waste of time to worry about it untill something actualy happens. I am not saying that if there was enough support that they could not bann paintball, I'm just saying they wont/can't.

X_Brolly_X shut up! You have no idea what you're talking about. SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED! While the federal government will most likely never ban paintball, each city or state can ban paintball guns being sold to minors, being sold to anyone, or being played at all. Look at New York! Sports Authority may never be able to sell PB guns in the city ever again!

In Australia, people have to hand over their markers to gun smiths every night to be locked up!

In Germany, you can't play paintball anywhere *AKA BANNED* *AKA ILLEGAL*

Things have happened! All it takes is one city to ban paintball, and other cities may follow. Think of it for a while, it would not take long for, one by one, cities all across America to ban paintball.

[Digital]

That law is old. It was created along time ago and someone now thinks they look to real and sence that has been brought up, they now think it falls under the said law. Were trying to say that they are not the same thing. they are not toys, and are not immitaion weapons and are to be used in a safe controlled enviroment. but you knew all that. Its some politian trying to advance himself.

[Lord Kalo]

I think we may be addressing two different points.

It sounds like your point is how can we spread the word about what paintball is.

My point is how can we prevent "crimes" committed using paintball equipment from dragging the sport down and forcing government action.

I agree that education is key to the process, but this is not a proactive solution towards protecting the sport from vagrants who would seek to defame it.

The fact remains that at the end of the day paintball involves the firing of a projectile at another human being, an action that bears a striking resemblance to an act of violence. When this happens outside of the confines of sport, there's a problem, it's no longer safe and most advocates against paintball would support the belief that city, state, and federal governments should step in. While most would agree that we cannot prevent these kinds of acts, the industry and community as a whole can make it a whole lot harder. It is my belief that by doing as much as we can to prevent these kinds of events from happening, the public will begin to see the paintball community as a whole as one that is responsible and capable of ensuring the safety of participants and non-participants alike.

There is no doubt that the sport will continue to grow, but lets grow this sport responsibly and with adequate provisions so that it remains a sport instead of a perceived public nuisance or threat.

Let's forget for a moment about educating the public and the "average" person. In reality, the only people we can educate are those that do not already have an opinion about the sport.

We have to address the problem of the people that already have a preconceived notion about what the sport is about and have no intention of investigating the sport for themselves, I'm talking about legislators, law makers, advocate groups, city/state and law enforcement officials. The reality of the matter is that many of the people in these positions will not take the time to find out for themselves. People like Gretchen Dykstra and the City of New York. They are in positions of power and will go with their initial gut instinct and short sighted perceptions of the situation setting in motion situations like we have now in New York.

Many of these people already have a bone to pick with paintball. They've heard the stories in the newspapers and that is enough. They don't have to hear about the statistics about the safety of the sport. They just don't want to hear about another story of old men in wheelchairs getting "lit up" in a drive by paintball shooting.

Let's keep the ideas flowing because this is a relevant topic in light of recent events. Let's not just dismiss it as somebody else's problem that we are powerless to do anything against. It seems that many of you who have spoken out would rather seek to silence this discussion rather than form some creative solutions to an evident threat to our lifestyle.

At this point, I question whether this community might even have the intellectual capacity for such a discussion. I'd like to be proven wrong, but at this point there is nothing to suggest that paintballers of today are anything beyond a bunch of people riding on a train conducted by paintball promoters and planned by NPPL Inc.

The best way that we can protect the sport is by protecting those that are outside of the sport. Yes, paintball is safe for people that play the game within the confines of the sport. But, we have in no way even tried to make it safe for victims of those who would use our equipment to perpetrate crimes.

By definition laws are old. They are rules of conduct established either by custom, agreement or authority. Legal opinions that govern our land are based and overthrown on a system of "precedent" meaning a reliance on previously decided cases. The fact that a law is in existance is reason enough to support a judicial decision and interpretation of that law. At stake here are our oldest and most cherished rights documented and set forth in the US Constitution inked over 200 years ago by our founding fathers and later "perfected" with 27 amendments.

The discussion is open.

[Digital]

Ah, How can we prevent crimes that drag paintball down? Hm, The federal Goverment has been trying to find a solution to a similar problem outside of banning them completely, Just so happens it deals with the whole begining to our paintball problem at hand. Real Weapons, Now I know i'm gonna get flamed for something in this but its a perfect example. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN! Theres no way to prevent it. The goverment has been trying for a $100 years to stop crimes being comited with weapons and havn't found the perfect solution, Sure they've gotten some good ideas on how to slow it down. Everything mentioned here just so happens is used for real weapons. otherthan the sub-100 thing. ID'ing and the sell of guns to people under the age of 21, you can only buy guns at a lisenced dealer and you must wait for a background check. Well, Its easy to get a gun without waiting till i am 21, buy one off of someone else right? Theres no way any of those things are gonna help, If they accually did stop the sell of markers to minors, All I'd have to do is go to someone selling a marker and buy it. No Pro-Shop, no wait till your 18 no ID-ing. Any or all of those things mentioned will slow down crimes like that but it will not stop em, I feel the only way you can get people to see it the way us paintballers do is through education and exposer, If you do that then they will see it the way we do and condiem it the same way we do. No law will stop it. Why can't you see that. Mabey them people will invoke change.

[Lord Kalo]

You miss the point.

You are trying to draw a parallel between the petty misdemeanors associated with vandalism and assault by a minor to felony crimes like robbery, kidnapping and murder.

Real weapons are not our problem.
They are a second amendment right and will be around forever. This is a fact.

Unfortunately, because paintball markers are not guns, we are not afforded the legal protections that are extended to them. Ownership of firearms will always have a protected place in our society. This touches upon the point that I alluded to earlier in our discussion, there will come a time when it will become easier to own a real gun than a paintball gun.

There is a fundamental difference between what we do and what people do with real firearms. People buy real firearms to shoot targets or for personal protection. In the worst case scenario, as far as the law goes, firearms are a deterrent to crime. People are shocked when they find out what paintball is. It cannot be denied that we shoot each other with harmless paint pellets. Shooting each other is the point of the activity. Whereas the goal of legal gun ownership is for defensive reasons, some would say that the point of paintball is to injure other people. Add to the mix the fact that paintball markers are used in petty crimes such as assault and vandalism and it is easy for city and state governments to just ban them entirely as a "potential" public nuisance.

Getting back to your comment about skirting the normal methods of obtaining firearms, within the confines of the law, it is illegal to own an unregistered gun. The possession is illegal and can be enforced with imprisonment. The law does not make provisions for this kind of ownership and although it is possible for you to do this, I'm quite sure that you have not. Unregistered and stolen weapons are obtained for one reason alone and that is to perpetrate an illegal crime.

If you knew anything about gun law you'd know that there are certain procedures for the tranferal of gun ownership. There is a process that is provided for and addressed by the government. Any transaction that occurred outside of the normal means for obtaining a firearm would be illegal.

I agree with you that making new laws pertaining to paintball is not the right solution. I maintain that we should seek to erect economic barriers to entry as a deterrent to minors that would seek to get some "cheap" thrills at the paintball community's painful expense. This way we can ensure that those purchasing paintball markers would be doing so for the right reasons and not for the purpose of hurting the community.

[quejerpwacky]

That's what we need. Just like the tobacco companies try to get kids addicted at a young age, we need little Johnny to start playing paintball when he's seven or eight. Kids have no preconcieved notions. Talk to your teahers. Try to get a paintball league going. Get your parents involved. Your parents know what paintball is really about, don't they?

The trick is to involve as many people as possible. Remember, if they're on your side, they're not on the other side. If enough people go to PTA meetings and say they want a school paintball league, it will happen. Use examples of paintball leagues already in existence.

http://www.sos.mtu.edu/paintball/index2.html

And stop with the B.E. bashing. Sure, the guns are a lttile on the cheap side. But, on the other hand, they're a little on the cheap side.

I know that I would not own a cocker if I hadn't owned a raptor.

Odds are, many of you are the same way. Who here started out with an Angel? Or a shocker?

B.E. helps get kids into the sport. And the markers can be upgraded. Just ask these guys. (http://pub101.ezboard.com/bbeog)

What we need:

-more people seeing the sport for what it really is.

How we do that:

-get them playing.

-get the schools to start a league. Your parents will help you. Quejerpwacky said so.

[Digital]

1. I never said real Weapons were the problem, I was using them as an example.

2. I know theres a difference between the way we use real weapons and Paintball markers. For the last time I was using the problem of firearms for an example!

3. You havn't the slightest clue what your talking about on registered and unregistered guns. You can own an unregistered gun AS LONG AS its not a ristricted weapon, example of ristricted weapons are fully automatic, "HOT guns" (been used in a crime) this is in the USA. Get it right.

You tell me some way that will work to prevent crimes involving paintball guns.

[Mutated Goose]

Good point quejerpwacky, but the problem is that teachers hear gun or paintball and they think GHETTO DRIVE BY POT SMOKING OUTLAW GANGSTER MILITARY GURU'S immediately. They think that and so will parents. Seriously, if paintball was respected by school authorities, then it would be a lot more popular by now. Many parents think it's dangerous and they just don't seem to understand it. In my HS, there's not enough interest to start a club, and the school wouldn't allow it.

[quejerpwacky]

Talk to your parents. They know what paintball is about. Odds are, you've told them already.

Then, get your parents to talk to your teachers. Teachers ae scared of parents, (they really are).

You'd be surprised at the level of interest there is, at least at the high school level, I knew about 20~25 people who were paintballers. About a quarter of them had their own equipment. That's more than enough to start a team.

It's just like the cities and their paintball ban. Once you get this started, other will follow. You know what else, if there's any male teachers there in the 23~35 range, odds are they have been, or still are paintballers. They are your allies. Seek them out.

The reason teachers think paintballers are ghetto drive by shooters is because they haven't seen the other kind, the real kind. You've got to show them.

Maybe your teachers are pricks, and they wont listen to you. That's when you bring in the parents. Like I said, teachers are scared of parents. They're even more scared of a lot of parents unanimously pushing for the same thing. They will cave.

[Lord Kalo]

This is the black letter law for the City of New York:

http://www.nysrpa.org/nyc-admincode.pdf

It outlines the definition of what they refer to as an "imitation" gun and requirements for pistol, rifle, and concealed weapons permits.

Digital "Tactision, Stratagist", once again we are using the same terminology with separate desired definitions. Allow me to elaborate.

Firearms laws differ from state to state and in some states a "registered" firearm can refer to a one that is registered with the chief of police or police commission for storage and use in a person's home or place of business including pistols, shotguns and rifles. Exempt from this type of registration are firearms and "destructive devices" that are Federally "registered" with the The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Examples of firearms that would be Federally registered with the ATF are machine guns, "sawed-off" rifles and "sawed-off" shotguns. This is the definition of "registered" that you are referring to.

So, let's be clear Digital "Tactision, Stratagist". Some (corrected from "most") states require you to register all firearms including pistols and handguns with the local police or law enforcement body, while you are not required to federally register with the ATF unless you posess a machine gun or "destructive device" AKA as a sawed off shotgun. I would hope that you would not possess a firearm that required Federal registration and if you do indeed posess a hand gun that you obtained through an incorrect exchange, I urge you to make sure that you and your family are not in violation of local government or state law.

It is quite easy to forget that we are all governed by municipal, state and federal governments and it is important to understand that as a citizen under these interlocking governments, it is important to be in compliance with all of their rules and regulation since none of them are meant to supercede the other.

And one more thing, before you post a reply make sure to run a spell check first. Your inconsistencies, carelessness, and misspellings exposes your true lack of thought, intelligence or education.

[M98_Marksman]

Lord Kalo, no offense, but you are making it painfully obvious that you know VERY LITTLE about US gun laws. With the exception of the NFA (National Firearms Act) weapons that you referred to, the vast majority of localities require no registration of firearms. As an example, my family owns several rifles, from an AR15 down to .22s. The local law enforcement authorities could care less. We had to give the federal government some information when we bought the guns so they could run NICS chaecks, but most of that information is required by law to be removed from the federal databases almost immediately after the background check goes through. You could argue that my dad's concealed handgun licence counts as "registration" but even that required no information about exactly what handgun we have, it just says he can carry it legally.

If you are interested in learning about this issue in depth, I suggest you try
www.ar15.com or
www.thefiringline.com

[Lord Kalo]

I stand corrected. My knowledge is limited to the states of New York, New Jersey, Illinois and California.

As a whole most states do not require registration of firearms. In fact many also do not require purchase permits, or ownership permits. Many require concealed weapons permits.

The states that do have firearms registration and require pistol permits are those that have major metropolitan areas.

No wonder many of you do not see the ban on paintball as being serious, apparently gun laws are not as regulated as much as they are in Metro areas. It is clear to me now why many feel as you do, but this is not the case in New York and right now this is the battle that we must face.

For those of you with an interest, here's a summary of State Firearms registration requirements:

State Registration of Firearms

California Yes, Police record is made of purchases from dealers
Oregon No
Washington No
Idaho No
Nevada No
Arizona No
New Mexico No
Colorado No
Wyoming No
Montana No
North Dakota No
South Dakota No
Nebraska No
Kansas No
Oklahoma No
Texas No
Minnesota No
Iowa No
Missouri No
Arkansas No
Louisiana No
Wisconsin No
Illinois No, but Chicago requires the registration of all firearms
Kentucky No
Tennessee No
Mississippi No
Michigan Yes in all cases
Indiana No
Alabama No
Ohio No, but some municipalities regulate firearms registration
Geogia No
Florida No
Georgia No
South Carolina No
North Carolina No, but the town sherriff will hold a list of permitees
Virginia No
West Virginia No
Maryland No, but Police keep records of purchases made at gun dealers
Washington DC Yes in all cases
Delaware No
New Jersey No, but a permit is required for posession
Connecticut No
Massachusetts No, but Police keep records of purchases at gun dealers and permits are required
Rhode Island No
New York Yes in all cases
Vermont No
New Hampshire No
Maine No
Alaska No
Hawaii Yes in all cases

Anyway, we're diverging. We're not here to debate firearms law but it does serve as a good backdrop to discuss the issue at hand and frame it with a national perspective: How do we erect self imposed barriers to prevent our sporting equipment from being used to perpetrate criminal acts?

With my new found knowledge about firearms registrations in the rest of the US, I am now even more opposed to the solution of registering paintball markers at the time of purchase.

[Digital]

Are you making fun of my title?;) PS: I live in NC, and as far as I know we don't require registration unless its a special firearm, (full autos for example). Also I don't take time to spell check normally, I rush to much. I also am sorry for bringing up the issue of firearms. I say we got back to the issue at hand. Crimes involving PAINTBALL guns. Just so no one goes physco about the AR-15 M98 Owns, its the civilian model of the M-16 (I think) and is perfectly legal in most areas... any part(s) of this wrong please correct me.

[starboarder2001]

If it is legal or ilegal i am going to play. I am so sick of cops..:eyes:

[Digital]

I agree with you he he.

[X_Brolly_X]

My dad after getting busted speeding "Cops are the only people who have ever taken money from me at gun-point".

[Lord Kalo]

AR-15s are semi-auto civilian versions of the M-16.
One of the most popular being the now infamous Bushmaster line.

[quejerpwacky]

I'm in Canada. We have very restrictive Firearm laws. So we really don't notice if they want to write down the serial number off a paintball gun. Nor can I say that I care much if some pipley faced teenager working behind the sports desk at Wal-Mart writes it down.

I never buy stuff at Wal-Mart, but it does serve (in my opinion) as a deterrece to anyone who would use the marker for illegal activities. I don't like the idea of them collecting personal information, but they get it anyway when you use an interac or credit card, (don't know about that in the States, but that's how it is up here). So if them being a little more overt about it gets some little punk to think twice about doing something that'll interfere with my ability to play paintball unrestricted, then so be it.

[Lord Kalo]

Sounds like people believe that a "registration" process for the purchase of paintball markers is preferable to an economic barrier to entry or an age requirement.

Ultimately, any thing that is done to hinder the attempts of delinquents to ruin the reputation of our sport would come at some expense to us. Do we really think "registration" of markers is the best solution?

I'd like to hear from anyone that thinks the sport should have age requirements as opposed to these other methods of deterrence.

One idea might be to limit "registration" to markers being purchased by minors after showing proof of age. This way minors are not discriminated against due to age, a record is being kept of potential juvenille offenders, and the rights and privacy of adults will not be enfringed upon.

What do you think?

[Digital]

What could registration prevent? After all, when you are caught in a crime using a paintball gun they don't return in anyway. Its not like they can do ballistics tests and figure out what gun it can out of. And also why would any kind of age requirements prevent anything, SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER ME THOSE 2 QUESTIONS! Let me elaborate on this example...

Some kids in a car drive through town shooting up pedestrians...

Well, if you really wanted to stop that kinda crime, charge them with attempted murder, Yup I think its to harsh myself, but it would most likely make someone else stop and think about doing that kinda thing. Wouldn't it? Truth be known, they might have done that already...

[quejerpwacky]

No, they can't do ballistics on a paintball gun. It on;y serves to frighten away stupid 12 year olds. The Wal-Mart Brass figured they had to do something to make it look like they were acting on the matter, and in typical bureaucratic fashion, they came up with a useless policy.

There's no database for them to put the names in. And they can't do anything with that information. The best they could do would be to never sell a gun to a person who had commited a crime with a paintball gun ever again. I guess it would stop repeat offenders.

But, why bother. Baseball doesn't have do deal with this stigma. They're in the mainstream. Paintball needs to be more easily accesible to everyone. Once the people realize that it's just punks with the equipment, and not actual paintballers commiting the crimes, then we can worry about regulation.

[LadderingABC_Yu]

hey guys that write big long essays
wanna write mine? hahahhahaha
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :D

[Ebonclaw]

Hey guys that can't read even the first sentance of an essay, wanna read this one-liner?

[LadderingABC_Yu]

Originally posted by Ebonclaw
Hey guys that can't read even the first sentance of an essay, wanna read this one-liner?

say what?

[LadderingABC_Yu]

hey lord the pistion 4 writing me an essay/paper is still up 4 garbs :D :D :laugh: :D :D

[Lord Kalo]

http://home.nyc.gov/html/dca/pdf/imitationguns.pdf
http://home.nyc.gov/html/dca/pdf/si.pdf

Anyone have any updates?

[Lord Kalo]

A PAINTBALL PARTICIPANT ASSUMES THE RISK OF HIS INJURIES

February 26, 2003 -- Attorney Gregory V. Pajak successfully obtained the dismissal of a negligence suit brought against a homeowner and his son for injuries the plaintiff sustained during an informal game of paintball or splatball on the homeowner's property. In the case of Cook v Komorowski, the plaintiff, Robert Cook, an adult who never played paintball before, voluntarily participated in a game with Jeffrey Komorowski, the son of Joseph Komorowski, the homeowner, and other young men on the Komorowski's property. The plaintiff was hit in the eye and face by a paintball during the course of the game causing a serious injury. After winning a summary judgment motion based on assumption of risk, the Appellate Division, Fourth Department, in the first reported case in New York dealing with the sport of paintball, held that the plaintiff assumed the risk of his injuries. The Court's ruling was based on the well known principle that a participant in a sporting event voluntarily assumes the risk of injuries inherent in the reckless conduct in shooting the plaintiff in the eye and that the plaintiff's inexperience prevented the application of the assumption of risk doctrine.

[Lord Kalo]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0222/p01s01-ussc.html

[Lord Kalo]

May 24, 2003
North Aurora, Illinois considers banning paintball guns

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/052403_ns_paintball.html

[Digital]

All this talk about banning paintball guns makes me wanna beat the #$%^ out of something. I wish some punk would ambush me on the way home from a day of paintball. I'd make it an event he'd never forget. Ok ok sry, thats wrong, shouldn't have said that but I had to vent...

[Sam#27]

I agree about not selling markers any other place then the internet or pro shops. But i did some thinking....
Do people that vandalize there community with paintball guns really reflect on the sport of paintball? do you really think that when people hear about this they say "wow the sport of paintball is aweful" well when some one gets beaten down with a bat no one says"wow, baseball, what a horrible sport". So why would they do that with paintball, and do most people think that about paintball after incidents like this? I dont think the majority of people hate paintball because of this. I think most realize that vandalizim isnt paintball, and it should not be associated with it.

[tonysk83]

Originally posted by Lord Kalo
May 24, 2003
North Aurora, Illinois considers banning paintball guns

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/052403_ns_paintball.html

thats like 10 min from me......anyways around here its illegal to shot paintball guns in city limits, i always do and no nieghbors have complained

[Laue]

I dont understand really. I mean more people are hurt with real guns. Does that mean they're gonna ban all guns. And what about spray paint? Kids buy 99 cent spray paint and go and vandalize cars and buildings. Outlaw spray paint? So why outlaw paintball? The sport itself is just as safe as any other sport. Its dumb.

[Lord Kalo]

And in Pennsylvania, driving with a loaded paintball gun means jail time or fines. ``Anybody who drives around the streets with a loaded paintball gun is probably up to no good anyhow,'' said Rep. Edward G. Staback. A constituent's Victorian home had been vandalized by someone with a paintball gun.



Driving With Loaded Paintball Gun Outlawed
New Law To Take Effect Jan. 20

POSTED: 5:43 p.m. EST January 2, 2002
UPDATED: 5:47 p.m. EST January 2, 2002

An unusual new law will take effect in Pennsylvania later this month.

Beginning Jan. 20, it will be illegal to carry a loaded paintball gun in your vehicle.

The bill was sponsored by state Rep. Edward Staback, a Democrat from Lackawanna. His home was vandalized by suspects using paintball guns.


Those who break the new paintball-gun law face a maximum penalty of 90 days in jail or a $300 fine.
Copyright 2002 by TheWGALChannel.com.

[monkeybacon00]

Ok I only read the first page and passed the rest b/c I realized it would just be a bunch of whining like the first.

But the whole Gary Holdren thing (was that his name?) was not a paintball related incident. I read up on it more, and some news site (read it a while ago) wrote a little story about what a cop said. He said that there were no bruises on the man's body resembling a paintball mark, and there wasn't any paint on his clothes. Some kids happened to play paintball in their backyards or something, and some paint and shell were found on the street where the man fell.

Gary holdren was skating down a large hill, without a helmet on. He tripped and suffered injuries that led to his death later (or was it immediate, im sorry i cant remember). The people and cops made assumptions on the paintball thing. I heard all this straight from this news site, and also from someone here on pbreview who lived in the same city and actually heard it on the news.