Vertical vs. Side loaders

[Bluto]

I've noticed in the trading forums that there are definite preferences- what's the advantages/disadvantages to each design?

thanx in advance-

[faniffyperson]

side feed (power feed)- can shoot while looking either down the side or the top.

vertical feed (center feed)- feed just a little bit faster but you have to tilt the marker to the side if you want to shoot over the top.

It really comes down to personal preference. I like the vertical feed better but like any marker out there... you should try one before you buy it. Each one fits different people's styles.

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by faniffyperson
side feed (power feed)- can shoot while looking either down the side or the top.

vertical feed (center feed)- feed just a little bit faster but you have to tilt the marker to the side if you want to shoot over the top.

It really comes down to personal preference. I like the vertical feed better but like any marker out there... you should try one before you buy it. Each one fits different people's styles.

w/ blowbacks (like piranhas, spyders, and draguns) vert is slower, since the blowback forces the balls back up the tube just a tad each shot. W/ powerfeed, it disperses the blowback better, and is faster than vert.

on non-blowbacks... then it's all about what the timmy dude above me said.

[Paint Bulley]

Originally posted by BourneKiller


w/ blowbacks (like piranhas, spyders, and draguns) vert is slower, since the blowback forces the balls back up the tube just a tad each shot. W/ powerfeed, it disperses the blowback better, and is faster than vert.

on non-blowbacks... then it's all about what the timmy dude above me said.


it doesnt always shoot air up the tube...... just cuz' they call it a blowback doesnt mean it shoots tons of air back up the tube to make any bit of difference.


DONT make me go get proof

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Paint Bulley



it doesnt always shoot air up the tube...... just cuz' they call it a blowback doesnt mean it shoots tons of air back up the tube to make any bit of difference.


DONT make me go get proof
well... first of all... i dunno where you got that TONS OF AIR thing, but the blowback DOES affect feed. And you're the first person (besides a n00b) to say that it doesn't. PM Hsuve or Ebon and see what they have to say. And while you're at it, I'd like to see this "proof" of yours. Yes, they call them blowbacks for a reason. It may not be HUGE, but vert feed IS affected more by it than powerfeed. FACT.

[Paint Bulley]

that dont look like much blowback to me....

http://home.attbi.com/~blindseaman/suck.AVI

[frisko_sav]

ur icon makes me uncomfertable bourne, and no, i dont have that problem especially wen my loader shoves balls down its neck, wait that sounds bad :eyes: , ok anyways, yea i dont htink thats entrily true, so im with the bulley man

[cocker kid 2k2]

Originally posted by frisko_sav
ur icon makes me uncomfertable bourne, and no, i dont have that problem especially wen my loader shoves balls down its neck, wait that sounds bad :eyes: , ok anyways, yea i dont htink thats entrily true, so im with the bulley man


so am i, all of a sudden a bunch of ppl actually start sayin vert is slow cuz of this matter, its very not true (well at least with none of the 7 e99's or 2 bd's around here) the vert feed has never prevented em from shooting faster or chopping or anything like that

[BourneKiller]

That avi file was wierd. I couldn't quite get what it was trying to prove, but that's because it was sooo short. I think you all are taking what I say out of proportion. I'm talking like not even ONE bps slower. Like less than that. It doesn't make your balls jump, but if you watch a gun (spyder preferably, cause most of their vert guns need a vert elbow, and if you get a clear on, you can watch the balls better) shoot, the balls don't just fall, fall, fall. The kinda jump like 2mm. Not very much, but a little bit.

*fake mad face*

shame on you all for taking me out of context and blowing my post out of proportion!!! :D

I happen to own a vert feed gun, and I haven't had feed problems at all (except when my revvy was turned off :D) but that doesn't change the FACT that blowback does affect your shooting. a little bit. okay, this topic is overdone, so let's move on.

why does my avatar make you uncomfortable? :eyes:

[TorchedLH]

i think those are tissue tied to the top of the marker... i guess he's trying to show that if there was air coming up outta of the feed beck that the tissues would be moving a little....

[BourneKiller]

well, that could be skewed... since if it was tied to the marker, then it wouldn't move!!! I don't think it's enough to break the tissue, if that what its supposed to prove, but it's definately enough to slightly bobble the balls w/ each shot.

[Paint Bulley]

Originally posted by TorchedLH
i think those are tissue tied to the top of the marker... i guess he's trying to show that if there was air coming up outta of the feed beck that the tissues would be moving a little....


dont call person bad names, dont make fun for being soooooo dumb...

Did you play the cideo or just look at the picture.... the thing doesnt sit there, it gets SUCKED into the gun... SUCKED into. the MARKER!!!

GAHHHHHH:rolleyes:

[Gic]

im with PBReview's Muscle Man(Bourne):P


:finger: paint bulley dont make me come over there and smack you a few times:laugh:

[Paint Bulley]

Originally posted by BourneKiller
well, that could be skewed... since if it was tied to the marker, then it wouldn't move!!! I don't think it's enough to break the tissue, if that what its supposed to prove, but it's definately enough to slightly bobble the balls w/ each shot.


Paintbulley searches for his sawed off to end this stupidity...



DID YOU PEOPLE WATCH THE FRICKEN VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WASNT TIED TO THE FEED!!!!!!!! GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Gic
im with PBReview's Muscle Man(Bourne):P


:finger: paint bulley dont make me come over there and smack you a few times:laugh:


Thaaaat's right!!! Bulley, i'm sorry, but the blowback effect on those guns don't SUCK the air down, if that was so, then blowbacks would feed faster then anything else. That "proof" of yours was highly inconclusive and hard to follow. If you really think that there is no such thing as blowback, PM Ebonclaw or Hsuve... maybe you'll listen to them tell you the exact same thing as me...

[Paint Bulley]

I know there is such thing as blowback (goes to grab shotgun again)


Im just saying It doesnt alway blow back up, and it doesnt make much if any different on vert, compared to side....

HOW was the video inconclusive you people are soooo dumb

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Paint Bulley
Im just saying It doesnt alway blow back up, and it doesnt make much if any different on vert, compared to side....

HOW was the video inconclusive you people are soooo dumb

:D thanks for that dumb remark, btw. :P

Well... there is always blowback... but where else would the excess gas go? the reason it goes up the feed tube is because it doesn't all go down the barrel and it is COMING from the bolt, so it can't go back down the bolt. :D so it always DOES go up the feed tube.

and the video was inconclusive because it was sooo short and hard to follow, it was also impossible to tell whether or not the tissue was tied down.. or what?

AND... here's the kicker! blowback only matters when there is a ball in the barrel, the reason there is blowback, is because all the gas can't go down the barrel behind the ball fast enough, so some goes back up the feed tube. Now if there's no ball in the barrel... then that pretty much makes that "test" and "proof" useless now don't it? :D I was just about to go run and do that test for myself, when I thought.... ohhh! I'm not going to shoot a paintball in my ROOM! and they didn't either!!!

bad test, sorry! :D

[Magnus55]

Those of you with power feed, ever notice how there is always that puff of gas coming out of the little oval shaped hole that is directly over the feed? The bolt doesn't close before shooting the paintball, it closes as it fires: hence some gas does escape up the feed. With either vertical or power feed, the gas will be going somewhere. And since both of them have that little puff of gas, Vertical feed is still faster, seeing as power fed has to fight against the decrease in it's drop due to the slant, and that little puff as well. :)

[Paint Bulley]

BAHHHH

BAH I say!

and I have no clue what Magnus was talking about, he types funny

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Magnus55
Those of you with power feed, ever notice how there is always that puff of gas coming out of the little oval shaped hole that is directly over the feed? The bolt doesn't close before shooting the paintball, it closes as it fires: hence some gas does escape up the feed. With either vertical or power feed, the gas will be going somewhere. And since both of them have that little puff of gas, Vertical feed is still faster, seeing as power fed has to fight against the decrease in it's drop due to the slant, and that little puff as well.


ehhh....i agree... kinda.. but look at it this way (I am ARGUING W/ A SUPER MOD....:cry: :paranoid: :cry: )

w/ vert feed... the gas pushes the ball UP.
w/ powerfeed, the gas pushes the ball DIAGONALLY... to a point, and since there is a bend in the feed tube, the gas doesn't force it DIAGONALLY then AROUND THE CORNER... it just pushes it back a tiny bit... since there's the bend in the feed to back up the ball and keep it from moving... AND there's a huge hole, directly in the the path of the blowback gas to vent it...

as opposed to vert... where the hole is on the side of the feed. So very little gas goes directly out the hole, cause the blowback gas isn't just going to "take a left at the vent hole", it'll keep going STRAIGHT up, until it hits something like a ball... to deflect it. And in the process of being deflected off the ball towards the vent hole... it pushes the ball UP (think newton's laws of physics... if an object is acted upon by an equal object of mass.. and da da da... you know what I'm talking about)

wow, i'm going to get banned now... i just disagreed w/ MAGNUS :cry:

Hey, is there a test on Warpig or something about this? That would be a way to prove it... :rolleyes:

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Paint Bulley
BAHHHH

BAH I say!

and I have no clue what Magnus was talking about, he types funny

wasn't he AGREEING w/ you? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

:D

[Magnus55]

Originally posted by BourneKiller



ehhh....i agree... kinda.. but look at it this way (I am ARGUING W/ A SUPER MOD....:cry: :paranoid: :cry: )

w/ vert feed... the gas pushes the ball UP.
w/ powerfeed, the gas pushes the ball DIAGONALLY... to a point, and since there is a bend in the feed tube, the gas doesn't force it DIAGONALLY then AROUND THE CORNER... it just pushes it back a tiny bit... since there's the bend in the feed to back up the ball and keep it from moving... AND there's a huge hole, directly in the the path of the blowback gas to vent it...

as opposed to vert... where the hole is on the side of the feed. So very little gas goes directly out the hole, cause the blowback gas isn't just going to "take a left at the vent hole", it'll keep going STRAIGHT up, until it hits something like a ball... to deflect it. And in the process of being deflected off the ball towards the vent hole... it pushes the ball UP (think newton's laws of physics... if an object is acted upon by an equal object of mass.. and da da da... you know what I'm talking about)

wow, i'm going to get banned now... i just disagreed w/ MAGNUS :cry:

Hey, is there a test on Warpig or something about this? That would be a way to prove it... :rolleyes:

Haha Don't worry about the "super mod" title under my name. It doesn't mean anything, just that I have to clean up the messes you guys make from time to time. You don't have to accept what I say just because I'm a mod. There are plenty of regular members out there with paintball knowledge that surpasses mine, or who knows things about different aspects of paintball that I just happen to be unfamiliar with. We mods are far from perfect. I'm not completely set on my argument either, but maybe tossing it out there to see what other people think will give us all a bit more understanding.

And what you say makes a lot of sense Bourne. But in both cases the gas comes up and hits the ball. With the power feed the gas continues upwards around the ball and out of the venting hole. The ball inside twiches a bit but remains in place due to the angle of the feed and the balls behind it putting force on it. Granted the ball can go up the feed with the same ease that they came down the feed just with the additional forces of gravity. (It's a two way streak.) With the vertical feed, the gas comes up and hits the ball, which in turn hits the ball above it, the ball after that, and the next ball and the next and everything inside of the hopper which is designed to pile in favor of gravity where they come back down as soon as possible. So both balls jump, one is held in place to an extent by the back of the power feed, the rest of the balls above it, and the partial effects of gravity (seeing as the balls feed on a slope), while the balls in the vertical feed is held in place by the rest of the balls above it and the direct forces of gravity. Not really sure which is faster or not at this point. But I still think it's vertical feed, just because of the direct forces of gravity on the balls will pull it down faster than the forces of gravity with the limitation of the power feed.

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Magnus55


Haha Don't worry about the "super mod" title under my name. It doesn't mean anything, just that I have to clean up the messes you guys make from time to time. You don't have to accept what I say just because I'm a mod. There are plenty of regular members out there with paintball knowledge that surpasses mine, or who knows things about different aspects of paintball that I just happen to be unfamiliar with. We mods are far from perfect. I'm not completely set on my argument either, but maybe tossing it out there to see what other people think will give us all a bit more understanding.

Yeah, I know, I'm just being a dork ;) It's very cool that you say that, that you just have more priveledges on this site, and though you're very smart (i'm not sucking up, i promise! haha), that you have an open mind, and that you can still be "one of the guys" so to speak, and still discuss and bicker about topics. :tup:

Originally posted by Magnus55
And what you say makes a lot of sense Bourne. But in both cases the gas comes up and hits the ball. With the power feed the gas continues upwards around the ball and out of the venting hole. The ball inside twiches a bit but remains in place due to the angle of the feed and the balls behind it putting force on it. Granted the ball can go up the feed with the same ease that they came down the feed just with the additional forces of gravity. (It's a two way streak.) With the vertical feed, the gas comes up and hits the ball, which in turn hits the ball above it, the ball after that, and the next ball and the next and everything inside of the hopper which is designed to pile in favor of gravity where they come back down as soon as possible. So both balls jump, one is held in place to an extent by the back of the power feed, the rest of the balls above it, and the partial effects of gravity (seeing as the balls feed on a slope), while the balls in the vertical feed is held in place by the rest of the balls above it and the direct forces of gravity. Not really sure which is faster or not at this point. But I still think it's vertical feed, just because of the direct forces of gravity on the balls will pull it down faster than the forces of gravity with the limitation of the power feed.

Now, I had a flawed argument, you're right, cause I didn't say anything about the balls being stacked up and such. But I wanted to see what ppl said about things. I'm still trying to decide whether or not I want to get vert again or powerfeed. And I wanna be in the know, so it's always good to know what you're talking about! :D I have yet to do any side by side comparisions of vert against power (seeing as I don't have enough money, but if you wanna sponsor me to do this test, please feel free to send MOs and checks haha).

The one other thing is that I think that the blowback in vert goes farther, since it only has a tiny little hole to go out of, so it makes more of an impact on the stack. However w/ powerfeed, it only makes a little impact THEN is dispelled out the side of the tube. so that's something to think about too...

hmmm.... too much going on in my head :crazy:

[Bront]

Bourne, you sorta had it right. Let's bring up what I remember about the Power feed vs the side feed.

Side feed goes at a slant directly into the chamber. This has all the blowback problems as well as any problems with the slanted feed.

A power feed is at a slant that ends OVER the chamber, so the balls then drop straight down. They also have a little air vent. The angle prevents the first ball from being pushed back, and the vent gives the gas an escape, so it doesn't push the other balls. It was developed by ACI, that was having a bit more of a blowback problem than any other marker at the time (or so I've been lead to understand)

Note, at least on my vertical feed, there is a small vent in the side that should help minimize the blowback effect, minimal as it is.

It realy isn't as big an issue as most people have made it out to be. At one point, Powerfeed was popular and in demand. Currently, everyone wants Vertical feeds. Maybe it will change again.

I'm suprised no one has tried a vertical power feed. Balls come straight down, and then slant 1 ball into the chamber. Who knows if it would feed faster, but it would be a vert feed where you could use a site rail, so it could easily become popular.

[crey23]

Bront that sounds like a good idea.

Guys here is my take... on a vert feed, if your elbow has holes, like mine does, then you have a an exhaust before reaching the top of the stack.

Here are a few thing s to consider:

1. the pressure from the blowback will exit throught the hole on the elbow, or into the hopper, perhaps even pressurizing it causing faster feed.

2. The pressure from the stack(downward) due to other ball will surpass that of the exhaust on the vert feed.

3. I would seem to me that a blowback would create more vaccum than exhaust on the vert feed. Let's think about it...if you have a loaded hopper, a full stack, the exhaust will push up the balls, but ever so slightly. Rather the pressure of the blowback, while pushing the bolt back will create a vaccume on the vert feeder, thus pulling the ball to fall faster.

IMO, I have a Spyder Imagine, and had it set up to high speed fully auto (about 13 bps) and i shot probably 20 - 30 rounds, and had zero problems, none, no broken balls, no pinched balls, no problems.

Again IMHO this is an issue that is being blown (no pun intended) way out of proportion. That infinitesimal fraction of a second that the ball might bounce up, will not affect the rate of fire, unless you have a mega, super 20+ bps marker. perhas under those conditions that will be an issue, but for 99.8% of pballers....I don't think so.

Anyway...those are my 2 cents. Let me know what you think of my third point.

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by Bront
Bourne, you sorta had it right. Let's bring up what I remember about the Power feed vs the side feed.

Side feed goes at a slant directly into the chamber. This has all the blowback problems as well as any problems with the slanted feed.

A power feed is at a slant that ends OVER the chamber, so the balls then drop straight down. They also have a little air vent. The angle prevents the first ball from being pushed back, and the vent gives the gas an escape, so it doesn't push the other balls. It was developed by ACI, that was having a bit more of a blowback problem than any other marker at the time (or so I've been lead to understand)

Note, at least on my vertical feed, there is a small vent in the side that should help minimize the blowback effect, minimal as it is.

It realy isn't as big an issue as most people have made it out to be. At one point, Powerfeed was popular and in demand. Currently, everyone wants Vertical feeds. Maybe it will change again.

I'm suprised no one has tried a vertical power feed. Balls come straight down, and then slant 1 ball into the chamber. Who knows if it would feed faster, but it would be a vert feed where you could use a site rail, so it could easily become popular.

what do you mean I sorta had it right? :confused: you didn't show me anything that I got wrong... I know how powerfeed, side feed and vert work. ;) NO i'm sorry you're wrong. ;) :P A power feed does not end OVER the chamber, it ends to the UPPER-SIDE (think diagonally up) of the chamber. And it has a LARGE exhaust port. much bigger than the one on standard or side feed or vert. You're right about the ball not going anywhere from the blowback and the blowback going out the vent... except AGD invented powerfeed, trust me, I promise! AGD rules, haha, they invented lots of good stuff.

now that would be a wierd vert powerfeed.... bleah... i say just get a HALO-B or EggII on vert and you're good.

[BourneKiller]

Originally posted by crey23
Again IMHO this is an issue that is being blown (no pun intended) way out of proportion. That infinitesimal fraction of a second that the ball might bounce up, will not affect the rate of fire, unless you have a mega, super 20+ bps marker. perhas under those conditions that will be an issue, but for 99.8% of pballers....I don't think so.

Anyway...those are my 2 cents. Let me know what you think of my third point.

yes I agree... but it's kinda fun! :crazy:

[Ebonclaw]

Yeah! Everyone PM Ebon and Hsuve! They don't get enough PM's!
I'll solve this once and for all.

Vert feed on blowback: Blowback gas has no vents to escape and a short stack. Stack height matters in this instance because if there are many balls on top of the ball loading in the breech, the blowback won't be able to push the ball as much or at all. But vert feed is a short stack heightand there is no vent. A loader that feeds with no gaps will help some....it will keep balls on top of the "loading" ball as I'll refer to it form now on-the ball about to fall into the breech. However, 12Vs and Rics only agitate, and not actually feed. As a result, they can have feed gaps, and regardless, any blowback electro will chop the last two balls or so if the rate of fire is maintained beyond what is allotted (10 BPS). But..., a large stack height and a vent along with the fact on a powerfeed whatever gas remains has to force all those balls against an elbow, allow a powerfeed to feed faster. I was able to reliably fire at 12BPS on my E-shutter using a TurboRev hopper and vortex paddle. Regardless of the feed, RoF must be slowed for the last two balls or they will chop at about 10 BPS and more.
A forcefed loader allows you to negate blowback altogether. The HALO-B allowed me to max my Storm Frame on the Shutter past that of Angel speed ( I topped at a reliable 15 BPS....feeding numerous leftover 140s through at full auto).
So....if you have a powerfeed, it will feed faster than a vert on a blowback. Expect 12 BPS or so tops.
If you have a vert feed, I've seen chopping occur at 10 and frequently at 11.
If you have a forcefed loader (Egg II or HALO-B) blowback does not affect you until you run out of balls in the loader and have only the stack.

[BourneKiller]

This should be a sticky somewhere, cause I don't know how many times I've talked about blowback issues. We should make Ultimate Stickies in all forums, not jus the AGD Forum.

Oh, and great post Ebon, that was very clear, concise and easy to follow. :)

[Bront]

AGD! That's it, not ACI!

I knew it was some A company ;)

Sorry, my mistake.