No Difference Between High End Guns?

[Phobos182]

Why own a mechanical?

I was thinking about this subject for a while, and i decided to put it into writing as i want some feedback from some of the other players out there.

Definition: High End Guns
Guns that have been upgraded a LOT. Near the best of the best you can get for that model of marker.

For this next paragraph. Assume all markers are using the exact same paint, with a perfect barrel match. Assume all barrels are 14" in length. All markers are standard size.

So, whats the difference between them? All the guns will have the same range and accuracy. This is physics here, you cannot argue. The only differing attributes that i can come up is this.

-Rate of fire
-Efficiency
-Weight
-Size

::Electros::
Electro guns such as the Matrix & Angel. They usually have a very high ROF. They will be lighter, and more than likely they will be small. I have no clue about the efficiency as i have never owned one.

::Mechanical::
Mechanical markers such as the Autococker & Automag. They usually will have a Medium/Very High ROF, they will be heavier, they will be longer, but efficient.

So with this assumption about accuracy & range being the same, why would anybody go mechanical besides the obvious problem of price, and care (Watch out for rain).

Please, discuss. I may be totally wrong. Just an idea. The reason why i am writing this is because i've started to see a trend in tournaments of players switching to electro guns. In tournament level paintball, they put a lot of paint in the air. Yes, they do shoot with accuracy along with the high RoF. They do it because the more paint you have flying, the better chance you have of landing a hit. I Read a book on the history of firearms, and putting the most lead in the air wins over accuracy & a slow RoF. Just think if they allowed full auto in the sport. Nobody would have a semi.

I have seen tourney players throw tons of paint with extreme accuracy at their targets with electro guns. I have now fired many electro guns, and they are very accurate with very little kick. So to me, that explains why a lot of players are making the switch. You get a higher RoF without sacrificing accuracy.

You may put forward an argument, that electros can only be used in semi mode when in tournaments, so all it comes down to is how fast you can pull the trigger. This is true, but electro guns trigger pull can be VERY light. Like a mouse click. It is easier to rattle off more shots with an electro trigger vs a mechanical trigger because of pull weight and distance. Basically the difference between pulling a lever or pushing a button. True a very talented individual could match the RoF of an electro with a mechanical, but i bet if you gave him an electro he'd ripp even more.

It is true that RoF is no substuite for skill. Imagine that two players are of the exact same skill. One has a totally tricked autococker, and the other has a totally tricked E-Matrix. They both have the same accuracy. The person with the Matrix will have a slight advantage in each encounter. Over the long run this adds up to a lot of benefit to have the higher RoF marker.

::Scenario::
If you had two 5-man teams competing vs each other of exact same skill, and one team was capable of shooting 10BPS w/mechanical markers. The other team was capable of shooting 13BPS with an electro. That's a 23% difference in firepower. 23% * 5 = 115%. That 3BPS difference between them makes up the firepower of an additonal player, plus some. Asuming they are the exact same skill, the other teams has a definate advantage.

Any comments?

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Phobos182

So, whats the difference between them...

In tournament level paintball, they put a lot of paint in the air. Yes, they do shoot with accuracy along with the high RoF. They do it because the more paint you have flying, the better chance you have of landing a hit. I Read a book on the history of firearms, and putting the most lead in the air wins over accuracy & a slow RoF. Just think if they allowed full auto in the sport. Nobody would have a semi.

I have seen tourney players throw tons of paint with extreme accuracy at their targets with electro guns. I have now fired many electro guns, and they are very accurate with very little kick. So to me, that explains why a lot of players are making the switch. You get a higher RoF without sacrificing accuracy...

Seems to me you answered your own question

[Hoplon]

If i was to switch to an electro(or any other marker for that matter) I would loose the feel i like. It's difficult to explain.

Having a marker that you are comfortable with is a bigger advantage than having the extra 3bps IMO.

Running around with an electronic device that cost over $1000 is not something i'm comfortable doing.

Cosmetically i find cockers more attractive cosmetically than 95% of the electros i have seen.

[SilverFox]

Why not go electro? simple answer i hate the way electro triggers feel. The increase in rof is acutally rather minimal. It rains alot here in kentucky. I play scenerios in mud and muck very often. I like the way y guns feel each one has been tweeked just to fit my taste and style, electro triggers don't fit into that. I have spent most of my paintball career playing with less rof than newer players. The situation doesn't frighten me or intimadate me. Btw your military scenerio is very flawed but i won't get into that right now.

Why should someone get an electro? They lackconfidance or intimmadated by the rof others have. Basically if you feel you need an elecrto to compete then you probabally do. The high rate of fire is statistically an advantage but it really doesn't play out on the field. Why because when you fan for a high rof you accuracy does indeed decrease.


Finally why not go electro cause electros are for wussies!

[Sudden Impact]

Why should someone get an electro? They lackconfidance or intimmadated by the rof others have. Basically if you feel you need an elecrto to compete then you probabally do.

That's a very big assumption to make without knowing every single person that uses an electro...I use cockers, mags and angels...does that mean Im still a wussie? Maybe some like the feel of an electro trigger...

[FrOnTMaN]

i dont know why you even started this thread. this has all been said before. people buy mechanical markers because they prefer them. its simple.

[elTwitcho]

Originally posted by Sudden Impact


That's a very big assumption to make without knowing every single person that uses an electro...I use cockers, mags and angels...does that mean Im still a wussie? Maybe some like the feel of an electro trigger...

Dynasty are also wussies, aftershock ditched their cockers for electros and are pretty damn wimpy too. Ground Zero are probably terrified of the other team so badly they had to actually make their own version of an electro just to stop peeing themselves whenever they walked onto the field. And I bet people are gonna say Jeremy Salm is a big wimp too, because he shot people with a matrix from the sidelines when he very well coulda used a cocker... well actually that's a bad example

[Shadow221]

Originally posted by Phobos182
Assume all markers are using the exact same paint, with a perfect barrel match. Assume all barrels are 14" in length. All markers are standard size.

So, whats the difference between them? All the guns will have the same range and accuracy. This is physics here, you cannot argue.
Sorry chief but you are wrong. The will have the same range but not the same accuracy. For example a Stock mag and a stock Cocker. Both same type and length barrel and same paint. Despite this their accuracy will not be the same. The reason why is consistancy. A stock cocker reg does not perform well at all. However the stock mag reg commonly does +/- 2 fps shot to shot consistancy. So if the velocity of each shot on a cocker varies by more than the mag the resulting shot grouping will be more spread out. This is physics and you can not argue.

[Sudden Impact]

about accuracy...you've also gotta consider kick...and with the mag, barrel wiggle...

[Shadow221]

barrel wiggle would effect mags less than other guns since the chamber is a part of the barrel and the o-rings hold it very solidly in place. On guns with screw in barrels a wiggley barrel would hurt accracy more and would break paint.

[Phobos182]

Shadow221
Read the post again. I mentioned nothing in my post about stock guns. I said to assume all markers were high end, meaning they were upgraded to the near fullest. Aka low pressure, and the best barrell, upgrades.

After all of that, there all the same accuracy.

I have shot many high end guns, and to tell you the truth i could not find a difference in accuracy. If you doubt that, go here to warpig where they prove different guns have different accuracy. The only difference was feel, and rof.

Warpig Test (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml)

There are other factors to accuracy such as kick, but all high end low pressure guns have little to no kick, so you cant argue that. The paint / bore match / barrel are the most important factors in accuracy. Once you go low pressure, you cant feel the kick. Guns that cannot go low pressure will obviously have a disadvantage in the kick department, making the spread larger. That's another plus for electros since some of them can operate @ 60PSI, while cockers have a hard time getting under 200 and being efficient.

[Sudden Impact]

whether a gun is electro or not doesn't determine it's operating pressure...the lowest operating pressure of an electro was around 140-180 psi which is an imp or shocker(someone correct me if Im wrong) but now its the new nova type gun...it operates at like 80 but before it a non electro held the title at 95 psi...which is the nova...my point is...doesnt matter if it's electro or not...

[SilverFox]

Originally posted by Sudden Impact


That's a very big assumption to make without knowing every single person that uses an electro...I use cockers, mags and angels...does that mean Im still a wussie? Maybe some like the feel of an electro trigger...

Indeed I am sure that many people do. the wussie comment was merely a good natured jab. your poor wounded defensive response however might just be a bit of proof to the taunt.

I made no asumptions at all. I stated an opinion. What you quoted from me. My assertion that if you feel you need an electro to compete you probabally do is a statement about the importance of the right mental attitude in our sport (any sport for that matter). If a person feel they need to have an electro to compete they will play better with an electro. I've a good friend who believes he needs a cocker to compete. He thinks it will make him a better player. When i loan him my cocker he is a better player. Why? Confidence, when he doesn't wrry that he is out gunned he plays a better game.

[tonysk83]

Originally posted by Phobos182
Shadow221
Read the post again. I mentioned nothing in my post about stock guns. I said to assume all markers were high end, meaning they were upgraded to the near fullest. Aka low pressure, and the best barrell, upgrades.

After all of that, there all the same accuracy.

I have shot many high end guns, and to tell you the truth i could not find a difference in accuracy. If you doubt that, go here to warpig where they prove different guns have different accuracy. The only difference was feel, and rof.

Warpig Test (http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml)

There are other factors to accuracy such as kick, but all high end low pressure guns have little to no kick, so you cant argue that. The paint / bore match / barrel are the most important factors in accuracy. Once you go low pressure, you cant feel the kick. Guns that cannot go low pressure will obviously have a disadvantage in the kick department, making the spread larger. That's another plus for electros since some of them can operate @ 60PSI, while cockers have a hard time getting under 200 and being efficient.

i hope u no that that test is full of ****

[SilverFox]

Originally posted by tonysk83


i hope u no that that test is full of ****

Actually it is a scientifically sound test. It should be repeatable and is backed up by comon laws pf physics.

Thanks for the info.

[Ebonclaw]

Simply the point that anyone can argue this long about it proves that there are niches whihc each fill..or at least percieved niches and personal preferences. As long as there is a buyer, there is a manufacturer.

[Sudden Impact]

poor wounded defensive response...

your "opinion" is a badly thought out pig headed one...

you're saying electro users use electros because they are scared of guys with a high rate of fire...look at your signature bud...youve got an "rt spyder" and 5 shot shotgun/law that you're trying to make into an autococker(not wgp autococker, Im not ignorant)...why don't you think before you post?

[Gic]

ahhahaha some one wants a sticky :laugh:

[Incube]

Guns are guns

It matters how u play with them...

[tonysk83]

Originally posted by SilverFox


Actually it is a scientifically sound test. It should be repeatable and is backed up by comon laws pf physics.

Thanks for the info.

actually they used stingrays, no matter what you do with a sting ray it aint going ot be all that acurate

[Phobos182]

They were not testing the accuracy of the stingray. They were checking the inherent differences in accuracy between open bolts and closed bolts. Aka, there is none. Doesnt matter if the gun sucked, the principle still hold true.

[SilverFox]

hahaha

sudden impact i said nothing of the sort. I said if player x feels the need for an electro they should get one. I even conceded that some ppl might just like the triggers feel on electros.

What i did do was give you the kind of response you were looking for with this post. This is all i am saying on this topic. Lets not have a flame war.

[Sudden Impact]

Why should someone get an electro? They lackconfidance or intimmadated by the rof others have. Basically if you feel you need an elecrto to compete then you probabally do.

that's what you said...

Im not starting a flame war...just not agreeing with you...

BTW...I was not looking for a flame war or negative posts...I just didnt like what you said...the quote above...

ok...discusion over...