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Eagle1_Division 01-13-2009 12:52 PM

Alpha Black Mod Idea
I fantasize about having a gun like the RAP-4. The only problem is, it uses 6 oz. Co2, and I've heard that it's very innacurate, and added to that pile is the fact that It uses Spyder insides and It's incredible expensive. I got an Alpha black, next best thing, so I've been thinking of making it almost as good as an RAP-4. (except for bullet-shell thing).

It won't be easy, but I think it just might be worth it, this is how I plan to do it.

A: Clip-fed. I'm tired of the huge bulky hoppers. They look unrealistic, they're heavy, they're combersome, and very annoying. So I want to use clip(s). (anyone know if there's someone selling his Alpha Black's clip? I'd be willing to buy it like on Amazon or E-bay for a reasonable price, I definately need an extra clip or two. I can imagine a few cases where people would want to sell their's.)

-So, I'm thinking of emptying out the clip of anything that protrudes inwards, and adding a small piece of sheet metal with some sort of spring system underneath that I'll sort out later. So here's the basic overview;
Green= Add in.
Blue= Remove.
Red= Problem.

The only problem is that the ballstopper is in the way, I was wondering what I could do about that... Make make one home-made, mabye cut off the end and use Gorilla Glue? Will Gorilla Glue take the stresses of the inside of a paintballgun? And then theres also the original hole from the feedneck, that needs to be stopped off, mabye with some sheet metal screwed in like a cyclone feed? or mabye nothing at all?...

B: Co2 Hidden in the stock. There are a few steps in this one. I'm planning on using a 9 oz tank, which is adaptable to normal paintball gun valves, while being (almost)small enough to fit inside the stock. As well as having a significant life span. This step include re-routing the Co2 line through the INSIDE of the gun. I won't be able to get an E-trigger with this set up, but I wasn't planning on getting one, and Semi-auto is more intense anyways ;) . This is the one I was particurally closely thinking over, I found that the Co2 line IS BARELY long enough. But it also recquires a lot of non-reversable chop-chop, in the gun, and on the stock.
Yellow=New Co2 Pipeline Route.
Blue= Chop-Chop, Slice-Slice.

C: The most scary part. Though I may be able to pull off the other two, this is probobly the most scary one. It all depends on the physical properties of the stock, particurally its elasticity, hardness, and how brittle it is. It's sort of like surgery. I'm thinking of mabye cutting down the top of the adjustable stock, from front to back, so it can bend wider and make room for a 9-oz Co2 tank. Then mabye I cut use a saw and make a block of metal to fill in the space, then spray paint it black and keep it in place with electrical tape... That way I could truly have a 9 oz Co2 tank hidden in the stock.

Any Ideas, help or such will be appreciated, It's kinda like getting an RAP-4 with none of the down-sides, but it will take effort. (but getting $800 is also a LOT of effort!). And plus, after putting this sort of effort into my gun I think I'll start to value it like a Gold Metal...


P.S. to anyone looking to be overly critical; flaming will be met with a flamethrower, so for your own safety keep far from it. :|

CrimsonTide716 01-13-2009 01:07 PM

hmmm sounds like this could work except for the stock and the orange ball stopper but maybe you could put that up side down, and as for the stock i think and im really not for sure about this but i think you can buy a rap4 stock witch i will look it up just to make sure

CrimsonTide716 01-13-2009 01:09 PM

well good news look at this

Lenny17 01-14-2009 05:01 AM

The problem I foresee with the mag idea is maintaining the right pressure. Too much pressure on the spring will crush your paint, not enough and it won't feed. It'll be especially difficult as you'll need enough pressure to hold a single paintball in the breech and ready to fire. Too much pressure and you'll just be forcing paint down the barrel. There is also the issue of keeping the clips in the marker - I don't know how easy a catch/release mechanism will be.

I've considered building an underslung hopper for my US-5, and my idea was to build something that looked like a c-mag. That way I have something that I can still bulk refill (it would be permanently attached, to avoid the complications of a clip release mechanism and altering the feed), but it still looks realistic. I'd be similar to some of the SAW box magazines that people have done, with a slightly different look.

As for the airline relocation, first thing you might want to try is macroline, it will be much more flexible than the steel braided hose. It will be vulnerable to liquid CO2, but as long as you anti-siphon your tank you should be okay. I don't think there is any way around fashioning a custom mount for the tank though.

For the stock, I'd start with a simple butt cap for the tank. It won't look as real, but it's simple, cheap, and gets the job done. It'll also be easy to remove - something that is very crucial for refilling your tank!

Not trying to be discouraging here, but I'd hate to see you cut into your marker only to find that something didn't work! I've thought the same thing (I'd love my US-5 to have a good MP-5 look, without all those hoses and hoppers) but the logistics of the conversions are pretty rough.

paintudown 01-21-2009 10:54 AM

i personally am replacing my clip, but instead of getting other plastic ones, i'm buying a broken ar15/m16 magazine (super cheap, you can get a new working one for 10-20$)

i will then cut it down to the right length to fit in the Alpha (i already tried to stick a real one it, much to long)

I'll then find a way to attach it to the alpha's magazine release (simple metal work)

now my idea is purely for cosmetic purposes, but you could try and do this for your feed system rather then buying other cheep plastic ones that fall out easy, break easy etc.

real magazines are much more durable, it already has a spring in it (probably to strong, but you could cut it down to make it lighter) basically it would probably be much more sturdy and reliable then making your feed system in the stock mags, plus it would look a lot cooler

Eagle1_Division 01-21-2009 02:36 PM

I'm interested, I actually have access to an AR-15 that has a lot of clips. But... How many paintballs will it hold?... Mabye I can check some time...

Hmm... mabye you can be a bit more specific? The Alpha black uses a sort of push-in lock system, I can't really see how you could work that with a real clip, though.

Anyhow, neat Idea, Thx for the input. I'll look into it.

paintudown 01-21-2009 03:13 PM

1 Attachment(s)
okay, i quickly took a picture and drew this up in paint:

Attachment 46797

on the far left is a standard AR15/M16 magazine

to the right of that is the plastic mag that comes with the alpha black tactical, i highlighted the tab that connects into the gun in blue

third is a quick markup of the AR15 mag, blue is my proposed cuts, demonstrating the tabs i want to make in each side and vertical cuts, the red is waste

the final magazine is the new customized clip, the tabs are bent down in a D shape and will now serve as the buttons that lock it into the gun

if this is done properly, this will not only be a better looking addition to the gun, but also a more secure and sturdy magazine, and with enough work Eagle1 you might be able to make it into that vertical loader you are working on

okay cool, just found this, here is a forum describing how to disassemble a magazine

Eagle1_Division 01-24-2009 08:02 PM

Does anyone have any Ideas about the ballstopper, though? That's my one problem so far in terms of the mag. feed mod. Will gorilla glue be strong enough for a rubber-metal connection to survive the inside of a paintball marker?

paintudown 01-25-2009 12:38 PM

is it not possible to remove the ball stopper and then put in aftermarket detents (rubberized "ball stoppers") on the top side of the chamber?

The main problems I'm seeing right now is that RAP4 magazines shoot a smaller caliber paintball than the usual .68 that most markers use but I took apart an ar15 mag just to test this out, regular balls will fit in it, and its a good fit, just the right diameter.

But, the other thing is I don't think that the balls fill the entire magazine like in your design.
I was studying the picture you provided and to me it seems like that thing would jam like crazy. There is no real good funneling system to push the balls into the chamber. I think on the RAP4 mags there is a single tube running through the magazine that has a spring in it, pushing the balls upward through the tube, rather than the entire magazine being full of balls.

Lenny17 01-26-2009 11:45 AM

The size of the paint depends on which particular model of RAP4 you are using. Some do use .43 caliber paint, but some use the standard .68 as well.

For detents, you could always drill holes in the sides, and use detents that are like those on an autococker. The detents are basically a small screw with a ball and spring mechanism in it. The ball holds the paint in place, but springs back as the bolt slides past. The detents just simply screw into the side of the marker.

But this still doesn't solve the issue of getting the right pressure on your paint. You need some way to funnel them to the breech, or else they will jam. I think RAP4 magazines use a coiled track with a spring driven mechanism. It keeps the paint in a single line which makes jamming less of a problem.

Eagle1_Division 01-26-2009 02:54 PM

Where can I find aftermarket detents, then?

As for the paintballs, just cover them with a few drops of lubricant before playing... :| Sounds kinda stupid, but it might help... In order to jam they have to have friction with eachother, if you take that away, with the fact that they're round and every point on the surface points away from the middle, then they shouldn't really jam, esp. If I use non-jelly paintballs, but instead use hard ones like Scorpion... And I probobly won't even need to lubricate them... Though actually I'm starting to like that Idea, less friction with the inside of the berral...

paintudown 01-26-2009 05:12 PM

I am with lenny on the mag idea, its like pouring flour into a funnel, it inevitably jams.

the balls can't be free floating but rather must remain on an organized track (think q-loader)

as for detents:
there's a bunch to choose from just on actionvillage alone, you'll have to drill your own hole where you think it will work best, but compared to everything else you're doing, that will be a sinch

paintudown 01-26-2009 05:27 PM

okay so i did a bit of research on the rap4 magazine and Lenny is right

I made a drawing of something similar to how a paint magazine feeds

blue- track balls run through
red- spring propelling balls through track
green- balls (duhh)

Eagle1_Division 01-26-2009 05:42 PM

Now all I need is equipment to precisely bend metal, and a very large spring... I'm thinking of my friend's house right now. Accept for the spring, mabye they'll have one at walmart or hobbylobby... I'm still not all too clear on how the detents work, I guess I'll poke my nose around and see what I can find...

paintudown 01-27-2009 04:56 PM

the detent is a small plastic ball (slightly larger than a bb) that is pushed forward by a spring.

this ball sticks into the breach of the gun just infront of where the paintballs land coming out of the feedneck.

when the gun fires the ball is pushed out of the way while the bolt passes it, but as the bolt retracts and a new paintball falls down, the detent springs back into place securing that paintball

99% of paintball guns use these and not "ball stoppers" like whats in the alpha, so if you have another gun, or know a friend with another gun you can probally look at theirs to get an idea of how it works

Eagle1_Division 01-30-2009 12:21 PM

Last night I got an idea...
The reason paintballs jam is because you're putting an X amount of paintballs into a volume smaller than they're current volume, thus increasing the pressure, and friction, until the friction overcomes the force that's moving the paintballs...
So the jams would occure in the area where the volume is being decreased, so if you put that area in the mass of paintballs where jam's cant occure instead of at the nozzle, then it shouldn't jam.

Simply put, I'm preatty sure something very simple could actually solve this, a small slant on the top of the clip;

Red: Clip
Yellow: Jam Zone
Green: Spring
Blue: Floor
Brown: Offset
Orange: Hole

Orange, is a small hole I'd drill, so a screw could fit in it. That way I could jam the floor down with mabye a small rod, and put a screw in to hold the floor down while I fill it with paintballs.

Now what do I do about the offset, I could cut out some metal so that the clip goes all the way up to the chamber, but it needs to be forward a lot more...

Lenny17 01-30-2009 12:56 PM

The slant would help, but I don't think it will totally eliminate your problem. You are still funneling a group of paintballs down into the breech, and anywhere there is funneling like that you run into the risk of jamming.

The problem is that piantballs are a very finicky ammunition. They are too soft to really compress (like bullets in a clip). They tend to get sticky if it's humid, which makes them jam even more.

The reason companies like RAP4 build such a complicated magazine is because it is what works reliably.

paintudown 01-30-2009 07:36 PM

You could try it, i seriously would not recommend it though. What I've posted may be more complex, but it is what has been proven to work.

Who knows, it may turn out great, but the way I look at it is: have you ever noticed how a regular gravity feed hopper (shake and bake) will stop feeding every few shots, and then has to be shaken? This is because you are feeding a large number of objects into a small hole (no matter what is done to reduce friction) well with the magazine you are spring compressing your balls, making your jams into large messes that you can't shake your way out of, then you pull the magazine out of the marker to fix the problem and BAM all the balls inside are ejected every which way. This is just what I for see, but I would love to see you prove me wrong.

Are you planning on having multiple magazines? how do you propose keeping the balls in the magazines while not in the marker? Just another issue you're going to have to look at before it is all said and done.

CrimsonTide716 02-02-2009 02:09 PM

yeah like paint said you will have to make multiple mags if you want to keep your self in the game which would mean making a lot of these complicated magazines.

Eagle1_Division 02-02-2009 04:48 PM

That is EXACTLY why I want to make them so simple as I posted above...

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