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Old 01-21-2003, 10:52 AM   #1
Ebonclaw
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Full Auto/firing mode info and definitions

Alright, I see a lot of "I want a full auto gun" and I also see a lot of "What the heck is a semi-electronic gun good for? Are all electros full auto?" And so, to enlighten the newb player into the world of electronic firepower and firing modes before they choose a gun, I create this thread.

Let's go over our firing modes first.

Semi-auto. These guns fire one shot per trigger pull and include manual and electronic guns. Just because a gun is electronic doesn't make it full auto.

Burst. Fires the set number of shots per trigger pull. Every gun I know of with this firing modes stops the string of balls when you release the trigger as a safety stop. A three round burst fires three balls at a set number of BPS (balls per second) that is usually adjustable by the user, unless of course you release the trigger before the three rounds fire, in which case the gun, as aforementioned, stops firing. The common burst modes are 3 and 6 round bursts, but some trigger frames can be set from anywhere from a 2-12 round burst.

Full Auto- Hold the trigger down, balls come out till you release it. No further explanation necessary.

Assisted semi (turbo)- This one is kind of complicated. Basically, when you fire fast enough, the frame starts "helping" you by adding an extra shot, even though you didn't pull the trigger that extra time. It normally operates semi-auto, but when you pull the trigger a set number of times, it will add a shot. Let's say you start railing on the trigger and it triggers the turbo mode to kick in. Now, as you fire, for every 1.9 (or whatever you set it on) trigger pulls, an extra shot is fired. Turbo used to be allowed, but is now disallowed by the NPPL.

"Response"- This is a feature found in the Tippman RT trigger and the Automag RT as well as the E-mag. This uses extra air from the firing cycle to move a piston that "kicks" the trigger back to the original postion. Translation: You can pull that sucker faster. However, when set properly, the "kick" from your gun, when the trigger is sweetspotted, can allow for fully auto firing. Tippmann RT triggers are notorious for this and as such, may not be allowed in a tournment. The trigger on the Automags, however, may be allowed, though you may have to let a judge inspect it first. These guns are not electronic, but damn close to it.

Rules governing firing modes: As of present, due to insurance requirements, nearly every single field only allows semi-auto ONLY.

"But what if I have modes? Can I not play?"

Good news. Nearly every gun with firing modes has a feature known as a "tourny lock" switch. This switch, accessed by removing the grip panel, when used, will force the gun to use SEMI ONLY and no other modes can be selected. About 99% of fields are perfectly cool with this. In the NPPL and other tounrment circuits, however, an electronic gun may require an entire semi-only BOARD, incapable of firing in any other mode, since some players apparently discovered that by dinking with the circuitry, they could have "tourny lock" on, but still select modes, therefore cheating.

It should be noted that modes are generally ery easy to spot. A full auto gun will always fire the same number of BPS, for instance. As a result, my field allows you to play without the tourny lock on, but if you are caught using modes you are kicked off the field.

In other words, if you're playing in a tournament, and for field play, modes are generally worthless and a waste of money.


Now we have the never ending question "so why would I want an electronic gun?"

Well......semi only is one thing....but imagine if your trigger was SO light and SO hair-set, that it required less effort than clicking your mouse to fire a shot. It would allow you to fire much more rapidly than pulling a manual trigger, and you wouldn't really need full auto, since you could fire to the point your gun was almost that way in the first place. This is what an electronic trigger does.

Now let's look at what makes an electro gun an electro.

There are basically three types of electros, but they all have the same trigger feel.

E-Frames. These are electronic FRAMES. When you pull the trigger, you don't move a lever, the trigger instead presses against a microswitch. This microswitch sends current through a solenoid SWITCH. The switch then trips the sear, which allows the hammer to move forward and strike the valve. In other words, the internals of an E-framed Spyder are NO DIFFERENT than a manual Spyder. It works the same way, only instead of moving the sear by pulling a trigger with a bunch of springs and stuff, the sear is tripped by a little switch in the trigger frame. The only thing different about the gun is trigger frame. They still have massive recoil in relation to other guns, and they are still blowbacks.

Hybrid. I don't know much about these, but they are also known as "E-cockers". They work by replacing the 4-way in an autococker with electronics which move the air to fire and recock the gun. The trigger is replaced with an electronic one.

Electro-pnumatic AKA a "true electro". When the electronic trigger on these is pulled, it sends an electrical current to a part known as a solenoid VALVE (NOT a solenoid SWITCH). The valve opens and moves a part known as the RAM to fire and recock the gun. Instead a spring in a Spyder moving the hammer back and forth, a ram moves back and forth moving the hammer and bolt. These guns can be inline (like an Angel) or stacked tube (like an Impulse). Solenoid valves require periodic lubing with a lube known as DOW or, more commonly, Shocker Lube. These guns need to operate at a low pressure, usually below 200 PSI, because the solenoid valve is sensitive to high pressures of air and can be destroyed (and commonly is) by sending too much air pressure through the valve. The solenoid is also sensitive to CO2, and runnign Co2 through a solenoid valve will do a varriety of things, including destroying the solenoid valve, voiding the warrenty, and so on. There are a few exceptiosn, namely the Shocker and Impulse, which were designed to handle CO2. Unless you have a Shocker or Impulse, DO NOT run Co2 through one an electro-pnu. These guns are typically very quiet, very fast, have little to no recoil, and the pricetag reflects it.

So, as you can see, having an electronic gun is definatly a firepower advantage, but when an E-frame gun fires rapidly, you WILL get a LOT of recoil in comparison to if you shot it slower, or you were using an electro-pnumatic. This is where the "blowbacks are inaccurate" comes from. It's not the fact the gun is a blowback, it's that it generates enough recoil that a paintball, inherently inaccurate enough as is, is not going to go where the prior one went due to the USER, not the GUN.

All electronic guns typically fire at a BPS either set by a board (this limit is known as the board's "cap" and is usually 10 BPS...as in the case of the Black Dragun Basic) or can be set by the user. Some boards allow slower than 9 BPS, or faster than 35 BPS, though no loader is currently capable of this, and no human could pull the trigger that fast no matter how light.

Issues with RoF (Rate of Fire): The reason a user can set the baord's BPS limit is simple. If you set it too high, here's what can occur:

Shootdown: If you fired a string of balls over a chronograph at a rapid rate of fire, you could experience this. Here's what 12 BPS might look like in a string of 12 shots from a gun suffering from this over a chrono:
285, 285, 283, 284, 280, 281, 279, 280, 275, 278, 274, 270

As you can see, velocity began dropping off. Common causes of shootdown are too low pressure, a cheap regulator that does not have a good recharge rate, and low-flow parts, like microline. What you are basically doing is trying to run more air through the gun than can be run through due to you gun's restrictions. You may lose enough air to starve the gun and it will sputter or not recock if you keep firing long enough. You may also start siphoning liquid Co2 through the gun, which is REALLY not a good thing, and then you start getting spikes and VERY erratic and sometimes unsafe velocity.

The other big problem, is, of course, firing faster than your loader can handle. A HALO-B is currently capable of feeding the fastest guns out there at over 20 BPS, but a 12V revvy with X-board will not keep up with your blowback past 10 BPS. If you owna high end gun that does not generate blowback, you can probably push 12 BPS out of it, but I wouldn't venture past that, as when the hopper begins to run dry, you start getting feed gaps and chops.

If you own an Automag with an RT valve, you may also get what is known as shootUP. The RT valve recharges at so fast a rate that it can heat the air going through the valve and cause your velocity to go UP at rapid prolonged firing. Needless to say, NOT good. There are remedies I've heard that help this problem, but I'm not a mag user, so you'll have to head over to AGD to see what can be done about this.
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Old 01-21-2003, 10:52 AM   #2
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"I have a manual gun, what can I expect out of it?"

Even the fastest trigger fingers out there on a manual frame with a good trigger job, will not be able to exceed about 9 BPS. We're tlaking pro player with $1000 cocker here. A typicall Spyder owner with a manual frame and no trigger job should expect about 5-7 BPS.

"I don't have an electronic gun...do I still need a loader?"
The answer is yes, it is a HIGHLY reccomended upgrade. Take your hopper off the gun, and fill it full of paintballs. Now hold it over a bag and let them start feeding into the bag. You may get around 7 balls out before the hopper gets a feed neck jam. This is where agitated loaders come in. They sense gaps in the feed and agitate the balls to keep them coming. However, they are limited to a feed rate equal to about 13 BPS, which is all gravity will allow, and towards the end of the hopper, you begin to get feed "gaps". This is where there isn't enough paint in the hopper and they aren't falling down the feed neck like they would if the hopper was full. Believe me, your feed gaps would be ENORMOUS and a frequent occurance without a loader. Ever pull the trigger and a ball doesn't come out? Agitated loaders solve this.
Now there is a new series of loader known as the "forcefed" loader. This actually forces the balls into the breech. They use a roulette wheel and a tray to organize the paintballs to be fed. Feed gaps are virtually nonexistent, they allow your blowback marker to push past 10 BPS, with ease, and they load fast enough to keep up with the highest of the high end guns.
The EGG II currently boasts a feed rate of over 18 BPS, and the HALO-B is capable of over 20.
Prices on loaders:
Agitated:
12V Revvy Xboard: Around $40-$50
Ricochet hopper, newest line, about $70

Forcefed:
EGG II: $70
HALO-B: $120 IF you can find one...BE is rearing its ugly head and throwing lawsuits at the company that makes these, as they are the EGG's obvious competition

"You say gravity allows 13 BPS, but then you say that I shouldn't expect more than 10 from a blowback with an agitated loader?"

Good point. You see, blowback markers use "blowback" (hence the name) to recock the bolt. Some of this blowback goes into the feed neck, and moves the balls UP the feed neck, and slows the feed rate. And at a rapid rate of fire, you have a LOT of blowback going up that feed neck. Don't push it past 10 unless you have a powerfeed, which allows the blowback to vent better, and even then my Spyder wouldn't go past 12 until.......

Forcefed loaders....God's gift to blowbacks. By forcing the balls into the breech and keeping them in place, blowback is now a negligent factor, and my HALO-B kept up with my Spyder at 15 BPS, no skips, no questions asked.


"I have a pump....do I need an agitated loader?"

No. Go away.
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Old 01-22-2003, 11:26 PM   #3
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i disagree with u ebon

ive seen a cocker hit 12 bps, no hinge just a slider

actual shots over one of them chrono's

not just a spike but 15-20 shot average was 12

as for modes, not just insuracne but also as an equal playing field.

many people refer to modes as cheater settings, as cool as they may be, do not think about them when buying ur new gun unles ur into scenerio games that allow it
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Old 01-23-2003, 11:35 AM   #4
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That chrono musta been low on batteries or something, if you could pull a mechanical trigger 20 times a second you would be drafted by now.
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Old 03-23-2003, 05:37 PM   #5
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to figure out the RT shoot up and compensate for it, do this:

when you go to a chrono shoot a shot and quickly shoot another and hold the trigger in. you should hear the valve recharging and crud. this simulates rapid fire. after holding it in for a few seconds, take 3 quick shots, then change your velo accordingly.

and I've outfeed an x-board 12v revvy with impellers on a cocker with a hinge and an aftermarket 3-way.
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Old 04-05-2003, 10:48 AM   #6
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One of my friends can make his 12v revvy skip every other shot, figure 24bps.

Trucha can max his Spyder board out, he can skip every few shots on a 12v w/x-board, so figure 15bps or so.

Full-auto is a great thing to have for outlaw and renegade...not that I'd recomend that unless you live out in bumpkinville like Trucha or Matrix, in which case, it's perfectly legal.

But yeah, if you need to make a move and shoot on the run...f/a is great. Sloppy but it works.
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Old 06-07-2003, 07:32 PM   #7
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it's not uncommon for a decked out MECHANICAL cocker to hit 11-14 BPS over a chrono. don't say it can't happen, i've seen it
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Old 06-27-2003, 07:50 PM   #8
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i disagree w/ ebonclaw bout the spyder can only put out 5-7bps dude when was the last time u shot a spyder i can crank out 9bps pretty easily w/ a mechanical trigget of a spyder xtra w/ the only tweeking being a new spring fron a madman spring kit and i no i can get faster if i fan the trigger(about 11bps)
i also disagree w/ him bout the pumps dont need electrohoppers i no one guy that can crank out on a pump almost as fast as most mechanical spyders

but seriously think bout it i play w/ guys that can crank out 15bps probably and i have a friend that maby the fastest hes ever shot is 5bps(probably lower) and he sits there and nocks then out when they pop up

so basicaly ya u can crank out 18bps but rember one ball gets u out!!!!
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Old 07-01-2003, 02:20 PM   #9
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In reference to the modes:

"Response mode" is when the gun fires when you pull it and release it.
When gas is diverted to reset the trigger, this is called a "reactive trigger". Generally, "reactive triggers" are not allowed except for the AGD version which is the hardest to bounce.

Tippmann calls BOTH things "response", so it confuses people, but they are different things.

Anyway, here are some other popular modes:
"Response Mode". Gun fires when you pull, and release the trigger.
"Hyper Mode". Gun fires semi, unless BPS reach a certain point, then jumps automatically to F/A or Turbo.
"autorepeat". Gun fires semi, unless trigger is held back for a certain amount of time, then jumps to F/A or burst.
"sniper mode". Gun is fired when trigger is pulled, but bolt is reset when released.
"auto-burst". Gun fires full-auto, but leaves gaps between specific number of balls (so the loader can catch up).
"T-Lock". Tournament mode. Semi auto, and Turbo up to 10bps.

Obviously, most of these modes are illegal, but they can be pretty fun.

Nick
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Old 07-22-2006, 09:56 AM   #10
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i find it hard to believe someone is getting a mech cocker to go 15 bps. think about, thats pulling the trigger 15 times by the time you read *this here*. just hard for me to believe.
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Old 07-22-2006, 10:13 PM   #11
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Why did you revive this...

(BTW ebon, you should add something about ramping)
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