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Old 05-08-2003, 10:50 PM   #21
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errr

You guys talk a lot...
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Old 06-13-2003, 07:42 PM   #22
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yes and you guys don't gotta flame it even if you got a diff opinion keep it to yourself or pm him good article by the way
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Old 06-16-2003, 08:32 AM   #23
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First, good article. Second, I think you guys need to re-read the article. He said that no gun is more accurate than another and that no gun shoots farther than any other. This is all true. Sure, you could jack your velocity up but that would be retarded. And you guys keep goin on about different barrels when he is talking about the marker itself. I cant believe barrels were even brought up. He explained the barrel thing very well though. He had to clear that up because there will always be people like some of you who refuse to let go of the myths. Oh, and closed bolt markers are a lot of times more consistent which in turn is greatly related to accuracy simply because the shots will land closer together. But when it comes to like one shot accuracy is doesnt mean a darn thing. Also, the flatline barrel actually lifts up because of the backspin, which is a bad idea, so it shouldnt of really been brought up in this little conversation (if you could call it that) . And about the porting. The porting will make the ball stop accelerating sooner and then of course you have drag and then a lack of accuracy. And the whole talon thing was pretty stupid. Think, the barrel on the talon isnt long enough to accelerate and stabalize the paintball, plus its plastic and wont be as smooth. The talons downfall in accuracy is in the attached barrel, not the marker. It just so happens that the barrel is attached.

I might have missed a few thing, but i am tired of typing. Any, nice article paintballerX.

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Old 07-04-2003, 08:30 PM   #24
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ok

first of all, thank you for taking time to try and help people who may want it. your article was very well written, and whether people believe it or not, very true.

many myths include accuracy and velocity and other things, but, it is probably a myth for one of three reasons...
1. There has been no test in a perfect environment that would prove these myths true or false.
2. There has been a test, but it has led to controversy over a flaw in the test.
3. People are ignorant and will not accept proven data on a specific experiment.

if i was to test any two markers, just the marker, no barrel, within a vacuum, with the same bolt system, the same velocity, the same air system, and both markers were fired at the same time, and both mounted and machine fired, the result would be EXACTLY THE SAME!!!

if i had different bolt systems, it would also be the same because the same amount of energy would be applied to the bolt, and again, it is in a vacuum, so all the bolt is doing is forcing a paintball out of a marker

now... even if you had a ported barrel in a vacuum, which as the man was saying.. in a vacuum... it would not matter at all if it was quieter or if air was introduced, in a vacuum, there is no air and no air pressure. A ported barrel would only reduce friction, which would be better than a solid barrel in terms of friction, but would account for hundredths of a second difference in arrival time to the target in a vacuum.
there would also be no drag due to air, no air!!!

of course this is with the same bore and same paintballs

You cannot test accurately in outside or even inside conditions, because the air around you is always in a current on the molecular level, and so air is in a current

the current would be different outside a vacuum because of air itself, and so of course there is no air current in the vacuum

please study physics more carefully and apply what you learn, many of these myths will be disproved with your newfound knowledge, some of them left with further questioning.

but what is important is the fact that paintball is fun, and we all love paintball
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Old 07-16-2003, 09:33 AM   #25
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I just wanna say that the length of a barrel can and does affect the accuracy and distance of a paintball. first of all just think about it, the longer a paintball is in the air unguided the longer the paintball has to go off target and the further it can go off track. As for distance, some barrels are shaped to give the ball spin or keep it from curving down. Also if the barrel is straighter it won't go down as fast. I agree that bore has a huge impact but the barrel does affect distance and accuracy. Otherwise whats the point of buyin a new barrel? And whats the point of gettin an angel over a blade? Anyways good work I just felt like bein a **** and correcting you on one part
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Old 07-16-2003, 06:31 PM   #26
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gosh.... is this the newbie board?? did any other newbies besides me not get a word he said?? Im either a retard and didn't know it or I just met Einsteins son.

If you want to test the accuracy, just aim the damn gun at something, shoot it, and see if it hits where you aimed it. Lol, no need to get into science crap.

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Old 12-20-2005, 11:03 PM   #27
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i agree with the drumer... and no i didnt read to the end i just want to say "isnt this a newbie thread" but i was beaten to it.

thnxs to the guy/girl who wrote the first article
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Old 12-21-2005, 09:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Thick headed people are so...!

Like I said before, until you do a test with all variables present in check, benchmounted, with a witness or three, etc., I simply don't believe you.
thats quite ironic lol
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Old 06-14-2006, 12:57 PM   #29
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Basic Physics

quote: "Also if the barrel is straighter it won't go down as fast."

A bullet fired from a gun drops just as fast in the air as one dropped from your hand. Hard to get around, but once you think about it you will understand that gravity affects all things. A "straighter" barrel might help increase velocity (but of course we assume velocity stays the same) and stabilize flight patterns. Assuming a stock barrel is not actually angled downward and the velocities are the same, the paintballs wil descend at the same rate. Just like the orange and the cannonball at the the tower of Piza.

There is one problem in the facts presented so far. A 16 inch or a 14 inch barrel is more accurate than a 10 or 12 inch (has tighter groupings), despite your rule. Not saying its a crappy rule, but has some flaws.
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Old 01-01-2007, 09:08 PM   #30
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First I am a TOTAL new but do have some experience that is of relevance. Accuracy is a bit of a misnomer here. Short of active guidance nothing is "accurate" persay. What is important (and RESULTS in accuracy) and "CAN" vary from gun to gun causing to you think they have accuracy differences is CONSISTENCY. The magic of accuracy is consistency ie being able to shoot that "same identical" ball the same exact way every single time. same forces same push same sping etc.. etc..

When these variables "change" so does your perceived accuracy. (This experience from Model Rocketry where my "projectiles" can reach mach2)

SO a cheap gun shoots all over the places not so much because its less accurate but because it can not consistently shoot the paint ball the same way every time (or close to it)

PaintballerX Do I have that pretty close to right ?

When you "add" things to a marker (upgrade etc..) you ALTER the consistency with higher quality components. When you match the ball to the barrel you alter the consistency. all of which will result in better accuracy if it results in more consistent firing of the balls.

This is kind of semantics since you would think consistency equals accuracy. Yes and no. we do not measure accuracy as hitting the same spot every time if fired the same way (this is what accuracy of the MARKER is) most of us however REALLY mean to discuss SHOOTER accuracy. this is simply consistency on the USERS end and USER skill and practice.

so a better gun CAN AND WILL result in better accuracy IF the user is already "accurate" and "consistent"

Its also true that a cheap gun can and will be less accurate in the hands of the same shooter compared to a quality gun.

this is because the cheaper gun is less consistent. in the VERY little experience I have handling paintball guns a friend heavily involved in this (he actually kept me OUT of paintball because he bought EXPENSIVE guns so I was not aware more affordable options had come into being yet)

he showed me one of his earlier guns $300 roughly and his new $1200 gun (forgot the name or brand legend something very pretty did nothing for me) and I can say there was an amazing difference between them. the nicer gun was FAR more accuracte (or consistent) the balls it fired always "tended" to go pretty much in the same trajectory while the cheaper gun you could VISIBLE see the fired balls "arc" in sometimes opposite directions from shot to shot. This was likely because of bad match between barrel and ball as paintballerx describes since it would explain it from a physics/geometry point of view (ie the ball randomly bouncing inside the barrel would not only induce a spin or velocity change but this change would almost always be random and DIFFERENT each time you fired.

There is already randomness in using a spherical round and a flexible one at that. a bad barrel match would just dramatically amplify this.

So your both right and your both wrong partially :-)

in the end by design they all have the same accuracy (tube compressed gas fire a round ball) but saying that this true and ignoring quality of construction is also wrong since quality DOES IN FACT equal accuracy (by way of consistency) its semantic but also not to be ignored.

If both weapons had the same consistency they would be the same weapon. Once consistency reaches a certain minimum tolerance then NO there is no accuracy difference from one marker to the next for all realistic purposes.

Hope that makes sense (applying experience from a known field to this unknown field to me so I may have goofed some terminology or something.)

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Old 01-01-2007, 09:24 PM   #31
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Killer bee what they are confusing is "distance" not drop rate. they are (inaccuratly) equating drop rate (which as you stated never changes all other things being equal) but DISTANCE does.

32ft/s/s is the acceleration standard for 1 earth gravity. so if you are 5 feet off the ground and you fire your marker perfectly level with no spin IT WILL impact level ground in almost exactly .15625 seconds. no matter how fast you fire it (assuming you do not go so fast that we have to take the horizon and earths curvature into account which is not applicable to this problem :-)


Now clearly our balls do not hit the ground in .15 seconds so what gives. well they are moving through a medium ie AIR and they are going to interact with forces invovled with this motion IE drag and lift. also most people learn pretty quickly not to aim level but to "lead" ahead and up a bit. but lets stick with level to keep things simple. so if we figure on a muzzle velocy of 200fps that means your ball will go 1300ft in a NO DRAG scenario before hitting the ground. these are ROUND balls so they have TONS and TONS of drag :-) but lets assume PERFECT drag free JUST to help the math along.

If we up the muzzle velocity to 300fps we can go 2000ft before hitting the ground (to figure this out just divide your FPS by .15 for a good guesstimate)

so a ball at 300fps will go roughly 40% (top of the head guess too tired to do the math) farther than a 200fps ball. (again perfect no drag conditions)

well we know we can not go 2000ft with a paintball but the "difference" still should work out (more on this in a second) so a 300fps ball will go roughly 40% farther than the same gun and ball at 200fps

There may (not an expert at paintball complete newb in fact) be a point of diminishing returns though. all objects that are not actively propelled have a TERMINAL VELOCITY this is where the force of drag equals the mass and volume. ie a human body falling out of the sky will accelerate at 32ft/s/s till it reaches about 120mph and they stop accelerating. equalibrium has been reached between the forces acting on the body.

I am not sure what terminal velocity for the average paintball is. and you will off course have a ceiling as to how much force you can impact on the ball and have it remain intact on firing.

What is the point of all of this your asking about now ? well an inaccurate barrel will NOT make a level fired ball go donw any faster than it would in a perfect barrel. what it will do is alter the velocity of the ball therby altering HOW FAR it can go in that same time before hitting the ground.

High power rifles do not shoot farther because of lower drop rate but because of HIGHER SPEED to go further in that same time frame.

but with higher speed comes greater drag and a DROP in accuracy will result if everything else is not perfect. and in paintball its about as far from perfect as you can get short of firing "square" paint ba..sqaures :-)

so the faster they go the LESS accurate they will be once you pass a certain threshold. The better built the "ball" is the faster it can go without losing accuracy by the boat load.

so a PERFECT sphere of stainless steel can go MUCH faster and retain accuracy than a flexible imperfect rubber plastic ball (but then that SS ball will murder you right quick :-) hehe

Hope that helps!
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Last edited by nerys : 01-01-2007 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 01-01-2007, 09:34 PM   #32
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One more thing. these distance increasing barrel things. I don't really know what they are but how they can work is simple. Backspin. for a neat experiment try this. take a BIC pen and remove both end so you have a TUBE place this on a smooth table and place two fingers on it in the middle and SNAP your fingers down the back of the tube (propelling it forward with a backspin) as hard as you can. the Result is absolutely fascinating.

it will shoot forward and then do something mind boggling and CLIMB UP like an airplane and maybe even TURN and BANK and I have even managed to make them do a "loop"

when you backspin a tube or "sphere" SURFACE drag over the object is not NOT EQUAL

the TOP half is moving from FRONT TO BACK effectively INCREASING its velocity therby reducing its "airpressure" (faster/thinner air = lower pressure) while the bottom half is accelerating from BACK TO FRONT effectively DECREASING its velocity (drag surface to air) which increase the air pressure) so now the BOTTOM half is creating MORE air pressure than the TOP HALF this created a airflow velocity shift similar to what happens in the end over an airplane wing resulting in a pressure change. Lower pressure on top higher pressure on the bottom. This is called lift which resists gravity and THIS will in fact reduce the DROP RATE by countering gravity with lift.

I can guess with 99% accuracy that this is how these flatline things work (I can not see any other physical way of doing it)

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Old 01-01-2007, 10:46 PM   #33
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You are absolutely right about how the Fatline works. Smart man. See, the problem with them is, remember the pen experiment? If the backspin doesn't go perfectly, it will bank like the pen did, and that would be very inaccurate. This is what happens when the Flatline is tilted, or cold, or dirty, or has any moisture in them. That is why nobody likes them .
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Old 01-02-2007, 06:24 AM   #34
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I was wondering about that. with a tube its pretty easy to hit center mass spin but with a sphere I was trying to figure out how they keep the spin component purely vertical :-)

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Old 01-02-2007, 07:09 AM   #35
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very well written article...kudos...

I just don't see how anyone else could argue a scientific experiment by saying ur findings were wrong. Of course the results r going to b different if u change the variables...i.e. a stock shocker to and upped marker

anyway really good post
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Old 01-02-2007, 02:19 PM   #36
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even though this is a very old thread, I have to say that that was a very well written post.

Psssh. And we we're worried about the 07'ers being idiots.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:11 PM   #37
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not trying to up this thread... but here goes.
Accuracy: how close to the center of the target the shot is.
Precision: how close together the shots are.
Consistency: how close together the shooter's/marker's actions are from one shot to the next.

imagine a dartboard. you throw three darts, and all of them end up in the center of the bullseye. great throw! accurate, and precise, yes. consistent? not necessarily. most likely though, you took the same steps to reach the desired end result.
now let's say they end up all over the place. what went wrong? it's not your accuracy. it's your precision and consistency. consistency tends to produce precision, but not in all cases. in paintball, as consistent as your actions/equipment are, there will always be some issue with precision. there's a liquid fill inside a flexible shell. way too much room for variables.
Good article, good discussion on the posts, but remember this: you can increase your precision through consistent practice. you can increase your accuracy once you're precise enough. simply put, if you want a better paintball gun, take the one you have, then take the LEAST consistent part of it, and make it practice more.


for those of you who don't get it, the person holding the marker is generally the least consistent part of a paintball gun.
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Old 01-15-2007, 06:41 PM   #38
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You description of accuracy is accurate (no pun intended)

However your descriptions of precision and consistency are not correct

Your definition for Consistency is actually the definition for for accuracy (another way of saying the same thing really)

If you can only do it once it was not accurate it was luck :-)

Your definition of precision is actually the definition of consistency. IE being able to do the same thing over and over again.

In this sport because of the crudity of our weapons its applies somewhat seperately to the shooter and the gun.

A gun can be consistent but the shooter not accurate.

you can also have a accurate consistent shooter but an inconsistent gun.

(this is important only because it most fields its never really the fault of the gun except in extremes of conditions. IE its all about dialing in the gun.

but in paintball the impossible to be consistent ammunition "creates" inconsistencies no matter how good the shooter may or may not be.

Accuracy is being able to hit what you INTENDED to hit. Precision is the same thing though it COULD be a refinement of accuracy. IE hitting the goggles is accurate if you can repeat it being able to slap a ball over each eye consistenty is PRECISION.

Being able to slap 5 balls in a tight grouping on your target is consistency.

Want to test your weapons consistency ? mount it to a weighed down saw horse with a clamp bolting it in place making it immobile. Fire off 15 shots see where they all hit the target. nice tight grouping its consistent etc.. this can also help you dial in its accuracy or precision. ie adjust your sights if you have any till the sights agree with where the balls tend to be going :-)
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Old 01-16-2007, 12:10 PM   #39
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Is this article your speculation, or did you test these statements?

Quote:
In fact, any test on the subject is flawed the second it begins, because of the aforementioned variables present (or absent, depending).
Your never going to have the "perfect" environment, but that doesnt stop the fact that testing would still be helpfull. Comparison of two markers can be done in these conditions, because they are in the same conditions. Take two markers, run the accuracy test for a year, everyday, consisting of 3 trials per day which consist of 3 tests each. At the end of the year, and after using the same target size, distance and so on, trying to control as much as humanly possible, you will then be able to calculate and find a pattern. Now, this result will not be 100% accurate because of the varied conditions, however, it will be accurate up to say 65% - 75%, meaning that which ever marker was the better of the two, you know will be the more accurate almost everyday, or time you use it.
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