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View Poll Results: Is sniping possible?
Yes, in all cases 126 14.25%
Only in Woodsball/Scenario\'s 375 42.42%
It is possible but not effective 219 24.77%
Never 164 18.55%
Voters: 884. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-25-2005, 03:13 PM   #61
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I don't believe in "Sniping", but I try to keep an open mind. Remember that people are different, they will think differently. Try 2 have fun.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:09 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sheps then Team A's sniper (assuming he's good) will be able to use the covering noise created by the firefight and his knowledge of terrain to quickly flank team B and eliminate team B's backman at the extent of his range without being noticed (one shot is hard to notice in a firefight, especially if the frontmen/middlemen are looking towards the main mass of enemies).[/b]
But the sniper is not acting optimally. What if the one shot bounces or goes wild. One shot at the extent of range is very risky. With everybody else firing their guns, no one is going to pay attention to a short burst of 3-5 shots. The guy is going to yell 'OUT! OUT! OUT!' if he gets hit anyways.

If I were in the position of the sniper, I'd fire 3-5 shots at the backman, if he has no cover from my position that will more or less assure he is out. Then I'd do one of two things, immediately. Either take good cover from team B and then open up at their backs, shooting 5-10 rounds at each target before moving to the next. Or, rather than taking cover, run sideways, doing the same.
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Old 03-25-2005, 10:24 PM   #63
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That's very true, sniping isn't effective, in this situation a fast gun would work better, but it is a way to utilise a sniper, isn't it? You make a very good case arguing that sniping is inneficient, but there are some people who play innefficiently (pump/stock players) in order to improve themselves or to add excitement to the game, right? My point is you can't legislate common sense, so why shouldn't you find a role for snipers that allows him to contribute to the team.
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Old 03-26-2005, 02:23 PM   #64
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Originally posted by Sheps
inneficient, but there are some people who play innefficiently (pump/stock players) in order to improve themselves or to add excitement to the game, right? My point is you can't [/b]
The best pump/stock players I have seen in rec play don't try to be snipers (as described) though. With a pump, the main disadvantage for a good player is the inability to fire in short bursts. This is less of a disadvantage up close to a target than far away from a target. Up close to a target, a pump's (single) ball will break most of the time anyway, whereas in the mid to long ranges, the 5-shot burst has a big advantage over the single ball.

In mixed play, most of the good pump players I've seen understand this and are no less agressive than anyone else. The best way to work with pump players is to help them get close (cover and supressive fire) where they are not at that much of a disadvantage.

Part of it's just attitude, I mean I once saw a pump guy bunker and surrender 6 kids at the end of a speedball game (all the kids had semis).
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Old 03-27-2005, 02:25 AM   #65
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My point is you can't legislate common sense, so why shouldn't you find a role for snipers that allows him to contribute to the team.
My point is that stock/pump players knowingly put themselves at a disadvantage in order to to make the game more interesting (although playing aggresively does make up for their marker's low rate of fire), and the same thing can be said for a sniper who falls under my definition. While it is more effective to fire strings of paint, a good sniper limits his shots and emphasises accuracy, and while it is risky, the risks can be negated by using high quality paint (which breaks on target more) and by making their marker consistant and accurate (which involves good paint, a good barrel and low recoil).
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Old 03-27-2005, 06:32 AM   #66
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Sheps: just a note, most paintball guns have less recoil than a .22-caliber rifle. Just FYI

As for the argument about pumps and so on, I see a lot more guys with pumps shoot from ranges that are at about 80-100 feet, sometimes getting breaks, soemtimes not. It depends on the situation Accesstime. You can't wait all day for your target to get close, and if you know you don't move very quietly, the odds of you getting in close aren't that great, so you have to take the shot when you get it and take your chances. There is also no guarantee that the paintballs from your string of rounds will break either at a similar range, or even close up at times. I have actually had a string of fire ltierally bounce off my jacket because it is light fitting and flexible so it bent in and the paintballs lost their momentum before finding the resistance needed to break (Newton's First Law).

But let us say it doesn't break, for the sake of fleshing this out. This is why I say work in pairs, because even if it doesn't break, your man will probably freeze or take cover (suppression fire). This allows your partner to move forward and seek him out while your opponent searches for you, and then your partner elimniates him...or gets into a firefight from which you can come in from the flank and take him out.

My point is, it is not ineffective unless you miss the opportunity to utilize it to your advantage, and most guys who play pump have been around long enough to know how people will react and the odds of it breaking.
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Old 03-27-2005, 09:31 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sheps

risks can be negated by using high quality paint (which breaks on target more) and by making their marker consistant and accurate (which involves good paint, a good barrel and low recoil).
Just out of curiousity, is there such a thing as a LPA pump gun? Most of the pumps I've seen are running of C02. For the thin-shell paint, LPA is a must.

When you talk of a pump gun that is consistant and accurate, I presume you mean something like a phantom(?).

Likewise I'm just speaking from rec play experience, probably the best example was a pump player who played speedball really no different than any other front player. I guess you could (in theory) stay back also, aim for masks or guns, I just haven't seen that as being as effective as getting up close, where you can bunker / surrender people who don't know any better and where the difference between 1 accurately placed ball and 5 or even 15 balls isn't that great.

And teamwork is just part of the game, all good players do that. Stock tournies or stock play, everyone is using pump.
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Old 03-28-2005, 05:14 AM   #68
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Sheps: just a note, most paintball guns have less recoil than a .22-caliber rifle. Just FYI
I understand that, no recoil is better than light recoil when trying to shoot accurately, right?
Quote:
When you talk of a pump gun that is consistant and accurate, I presume you mean something like a phantom(?).
A phantom (I'm told) is a very good example of an accurate/consitent pump. I would like to point out that you don't need to play pump to snipe, in fact I would reccomend a semi over a pump for sniping (because pumping can give your position away, and semi's are better if you ever get into a firefight).
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Old 03-30-2005, 02:34 PM   #69
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I dont even notice recoil on paintball guns. Pantball markers barely have kick or recoil. If you put a tippmann up to your shoulder or just shoot 1 you cant really feal any recoil. Its not enough to affect performance.
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Old 03-31-2005, 03:36 PM   #70
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this is the best topic..
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Old 04-01-2005, 07:20 PM   #71
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I'll admit it, most markers don't have much for recoil, so this isn't often a problem.

And Adonis, go away, your comments are not wanted and not needed here.
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Old 04-03-2005, 07:16 PM   #72
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i have not read all of this thread but i want to say thanks Sheps for makeing it it will hopefully reduce the number of other threads we see.

Anyways i do belive there is sniping and there is sniping in tourneys and i belive that we should all look up to the wonderfull "Sniper" we know and love...
I GIVE YOU THE ULTIMATE (and my favorite) PAINTBALL SNIPER

Last edited by Coenen : 04-03-2005 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 04-12-2005, 07:16 AM   #73
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I agree that according to sheps definition there are "snipers" in woodsball. Although IMO I would not call them "snipers". Because my view of a sniper is someone with superior range that shoots people from out of range of their opponents.
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Old 04-24-2005, 10:41 AM   #74
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i am rly sry to say but there is NO SUCH THING as a paintball sniper. im tired of hearing ppl say that.
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Old 05-01-2005, 11:38 AM   #75
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Originally posted by G 2
i am rly sry to say but there is NO SUCH THING as a paintball sniper. im tired of hearing ppl say that.
Read my definition, and if you don't like calling them snipers then call them marksmen, or anything for that matter.

I would like to remind you that while you are entitled to your opinion, that does not make it correct. Please, if you have something to say then give it a little panache, add a little supporting info, whatever, just don't post baseless opinions (you might have a reason for not believing in snipers, if so, enlighten us).
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Old 05-04-2005, 06:48 AM   #76
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i also suggest you read my post about why people don't believe in paintball snipers. it might enlighten you.
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Old 05-04-2005, 06:27 PM   #77
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Spydey,

I disagree with your argument on several points here. I think the main problem is that your are very biased against snipers, and believe the stereotypes to be true.

First problem,

Quote:
Originally posted by amzng_spyderman
the stereotypical military sniper picks off targets with one shot at long range. hardly anyone without a military background or military knowledge knows the real definition of a sniper. most of the people that want to be paintball snipers are basing their decision on the stereotype. they want to be safely out of someone else's range and take one shot at a time to wipe out the other team. sounds good in theory, right? what they don't know is that all paintball markers have the same effective range and accuracy by design. they don't know that sniper guns don't exist, but they assume that they do because they're paintball guns.
Even if all guns are created equal, (which they arent, I mean you cant honestly argue that ALL paintball guns are just as accurate as the next), it doesnt mean that all shooters are equal. Some people goto greater lengths being better shots and getting the best accuracy their equipment can produce. So your "No-such thing as a paintball sniper rifle" claim has no merit. You cant even provide a definition of what a sniper is, and yet you argue against them.

Quote:
Originally posted by amzng_spyderman
a common misconception among the sniper wannabes is that getting themselves a good "sniper rifle" with a scope and maybe a ghillie suit will automatically make them a sniper. they think the cross hairs will do all the work for them, and all they have to do is point and pull for an elimination. sniper wannabes often use their self proclaimed position as an excuse to hide in the back of the field. this bothers experienced players because they know that these newbies are not going to be an effective part of their team and will only hold them down. also, the general sniper attitude tends to be "i can take out the most people without being seen or using as much paint as you, therefore, i'm better." i get that vibe all the time from the ghillie suit guys.
[/b]
You make some serious assumptions here. I am a fairly knowledgeable target shooter, and just because I have a scope on my rifle means I automatically think that the sights will do all the aiming for me? I could say the same thing about speedball players, they think that just because they have a cheater board, that their full auto guns will doo the work for them? All they have to do is spray and pray for an elimination. This is a sad argument because you really are just making stuff up about what a sniper thinks about a scope. Give me a break.

Your hiding in the back argument is useless as well. I have played with many speedball noobs and they usually get knocked out right away. Id rather have some sniper in the back who still is in the game rather than some speedball punk who got hit charging through the bush. The isnt such a big hate towards speedball noobs, so you cant justify sniper hating based on this fact. If it was true, then everyone would hate speedballers too.

The VIBE argument is funny too. Here you show your bias the most. You get a "Vibe" from ghillie suit guys that they think they are better than you because they shoots less? Again, you are making stuff up to fit your argument. I could just as easily say that I get a vibe from speedballers that they want to touch my privates, but that doesnt make it true. It sound more like you have an inferiority complex than anything. People don't flame speedball threads because they have to shoot so much to get eliminations? So why do people flame sniper threads because they shoot less? Is everyone just getting vibe? Or is it that you really feel very insecure about your paintball identity that you must attack others in order to make yourselves feel better?

Quote:
Originally posted by amzng_spyderman

so, the main reason experienced players dislike snipers is because the majority of them are uninformed/misinformed newbies. when these newbies use their gear to pretend that they're skilled (which, before anyone says anything, applies to speedball newbs with timmies & angels as well), it bothers the experienced guys even more. it comes down to paintball sniper being almost synonymous with poser.
I agree that alot of snipers are noobs, but so what? NOT ALL OF THEM ARE. I know alot of speedball noob punks too, but they still dont seem to get the same treatment as sniper noobs? So the idea that sniper=noob=why people hate doesnt make sense either. Because their are many other noobs who dont get the same flaming.

I have seen too many anti-sniper, noob kids with angels, timmys and trix's to agree that snipers deserve to be flamed because they think their equipment is better than the speedballers. How can you say that people hate snipers because they think they are elite, then turn around and say speedball punks are the same? They arent the same! When was the last time you posted an anti-speedball rant? When was the last time you flamed a speedball thread?

Spydey, you have attacked milsim and snipers entirely way too much to have a valid point in this argument. What would you think if I made a "Speedball Rant" thread and then tried to tell you why everyone hates speedballers. You would think Im a biased jerk. So give that some thought.
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Old 05-19-2005, 07:02 AM   #78
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Wow...let me repeat, wow.

That said, some things to consider DeeBo:

A) All guns are created equal, capable of propelling the same round the same distance with the same accuracy potential...it is called PHYSICS. All rounds are .68-caliber so there is no change in flgiht trajectory you might see with a different round like a 5.56X45mm and a 7.62X39mm. That is what Amzing_Spyderman is arguing and we could sue simple physics equations to solidify his position. The exceptions are the Flatline barrles which also (from my experiences observing and using it) lose breakage power at further distances.

B) Secondly, I shoot pretty well at about 90 feet away...put a few one-shots into people's masks and shoulders, whatever was exposed...sometimes lucky, sometimes not. Does that make me a sniper? No, it makes me a good shot (military terminology, "marksman"). You aren't out of view completely concealed, you aren't calculating your shot with mathematical precision, etc. You are simply making a good shot when it counts, and you should be able to do that on the move as well as when you are concealed. To me, a sniper is one who is taking into account the EXACT effects of wind, humidity, barometric pressure, etc on the trajectory of the bullet...there is no room for that in paintball: when I shoot, I can usually tll your thinking about the game or the after game party with your girlfriend.

Now, for some rebutal comments the other way, because I am a firm believer that to find the middle ground, you have to be non-biased.

A) A scope doesn't make a sniper. Military M4s have scopes, and only a fraction of the military are considered snipers. The scopes enable you to make key shots, but more importantly observe, so a scope doesn't make you a newb or a fool, as long as you don't think you can make a shot just because you see the target. Part of being a "sniper" is being aware of what is going on around you and being fully prepared for it.

B) Snipers should not lag in the back, that is retarded, but they shouldn't be sprinting through the brush as well. The guys who are in the back might not be experienced enough to know what will happen...GIVE THEM TIME! They will eventually figure it out and move up and take forward positions. One thing to do is incorporate them into the team,and if you chide them as not being effective memebers, you aren't exactly getting support (take it from a guy who has led outside of the PB field).

Look guys, you can sit there and banter back and forth, but neither of you are experts. Amzing knows his stuff about Speedball, and DeeBo and others know their stuff about woodsball and scenario ball...I play either or, and I can say the role of the guy who makes good shots is neccessary, but he is not a sniper...not in the least.
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:20 PM   #79
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Fair enough Cadet, but here is my retort... lol

Quote:
Originally posted by Cadet2005
Wow...let me repeat, wow.

That said, some things to consider DeeBo:

A) All guns are created equal, capable of propelling the same round the same distance with the same accuracy potential...it is called PHYSICS. All rounds are .68-caliber so there is no change in flgiht trajectory you might see with a different round like a 5.56X45mm and a 7.62X39mm. That is what Amzing_Spyderman is arguing and we could sue simple physics equations to solidify his position. The exceptions are the Flatline barrles which also (from my experiences observing and using it) lose breakage power at further distances.
First off, the IS such a thing as a more accurate player, AND a more consistent marker. You cant tell me that a stock Brass Eagle, with a crappy barrel, shooting Zap rec paint, and a +- of 25 fps from shot to shot, is just as accurate and consistent as the same player shooting a dual regulated Mag with a $250 barrel kit, and shooting marbs? Common?

Next, throughout history it has been proven that you dont need a more powerful rifle to snipe. In most conflicts snipers have simply used standar infanrty rifles equipped with telescopic sites. Often urban snipers still use Iron sites or low magnification red dots. And M-16 CAN be used as a sniper rifle, even though every other M-16 on the field will have the same range and accuracy. In WW1 the germans used the Karabiner 98, which fired and 8mm mauser round. Their sniper used the EXACT same thing. It was not until recently that the army began using specifically designed sniper rifles.

Everyone CAN be using the same equipment, all with the same accuracy and range and you can still have Snipers. You cant argue with history.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cadet2005

B) Secondly, I shoot pretty well at about 90 feet away...put a few one-shots into people's masks and shoulders, whatever was exposed...sometimes lucky, sometimes not. Does that make me a sniper? No, it makes me a good shot (military terminology, "marksman"). You aren't out of view completely concealed, you aren't calculating your shot with mathematical precision, etc. You are simply making a good shot when it counts, and you should be able to do that on the move as well as when you are concealed. To me, a sniper is one who is taking into account the EXACT effects of wind, humidity, barometric pressure, etc on the trajectory of the bullet...there is no room for that in paintball: when I shoot, I can usually tll your thinking about the game or the after game party with your girlfriend.

The key flaw in this argument is the phrase, "To me, a sniper is...". This is the problem with these arguments. You cant use the dictionary definition because it is too simplistic. but you cant make up your own because my definition of a sniper could be "Anyone who calls themself a sniper." then boom, I won the argument. The only way to determine what a sniper is, is by looking at history. The use of the word in different situations. The are MANY MANY different kinds of snipers, Urban, police, Swat, Marine corps, Anti-Material, Terrorist, resistance, civilian... Paintball?

Members of a resistance who snipe, rarely have the knowledge of what the air pressure does to a bullet tragectory. Heck, during the black powder age when snipers first appeared there was very little of this knowledge. People were just good shots. Infact for black powder snipers had a range of about 150 yards, far less than todays snipers, but they are sniper non the less.

Why cant the be a different definition for a paintball sniper, just as there are different definitions for all types of snipers. Police snipers are MUCH MUCH different than military snipers. Even Canadian snipers are different than American, but they are all snipers.

Whether there is a dedicated sniper role in paintball, is up to the person that plays it.

The fact is, essentially a sniper is someone who is an above average stalker, shooter, concealer and one who knows when to shoot and when to hold. All of that can and does exist in paintball.

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Old 06-02-2005, 04:15 PM   #80
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NO POINT FOR SCOPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

does scopes realy work?

well, yes and no.

a paintball is not a bullet there fore your accracy is not garenteed. i use most scopes for looking up the field to see players.

sorry for miss spells
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