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View Poll Results: Is sniping possible?
Yes, in all cases 126 14.25%
Only in Woodsball/Scenario\'s 375 42.42%
It is possible but not effective 219 24.77%
Never 164 18.55%
Voters: 884. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-07-2005, 02:02 PM   #81
Blacksheep
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Sniper:
1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.
2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Pitcher:
1. One that pitches.
2. Baseball. The player who throws the ball from the mound to the batter.

Note how neither definition gives referance to ranges or more defined concepts (strike zone, fieldcraft, walks, navigation, stalking, etc) used by professional. Therefore, a dictionary does not actually define a person, rather a concept.

Some of you will cling to the dictionary definition and then try an arguement I've already heard. So, here's another for those wanting semantics:

The first definition cannot apply because paintball is not a military organization. The second one is contradicted by the concealment aspect. Concealment is anything that blocks or hinders view, so just about any cover commonly found on the field.

This means that any player is a sniper. But to use a term such as 'sniper' differentiates that player from the rest of the pack, making him unique. If we do use the definition in the dictionary, then the first is rednered inapplicable and the second is a contradiction in and of itself.

Therefore, snipers do not exist in paintball because the definitions do not apply.



Now that that has been covered, let's examine some things:

The effective range of a paintball marker is around 40 yards when we factor in breaks. From 40 yards you can be seen fairly easily without optical aid unless you are very well concealed and covered. Even camouflage won't work incredibly at this range unless you are layered behind brush.

So, one shot fires. The team may take a loss and then they have a general direction to search. Any decent opfor will immediatly identify firing lanes and that is their search area. Heck, they may even see you based on the firing lanes! From here, it is movement-to-contact or they can return fire and pin you down because you are within range.

If not, they can skirmish line and then move in the general area, each successive shot you fire is a homing beacon.

And eggress? Perhaps, but if you move they already have firing lanes watched so you may move through that window. And if you make noise...that zeros down your location even more. And trust me, moving through the brush makes noise, especially if they're listening for it!



Sidenote, I've never been "sniped" before by a one-shot pop from out of nowhere. I have good spotting eyes so usually, if I do get popped, it's in an aggressive assault and the odds just catch up to me.
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Old 06-10-2005, 03:37 PM   #82
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BlackSheep,

I agree that the dictionary definition of a sniper does not work very well, but I draw a different conclusion.

Like I have said, this is what a sniper is in a line or 2 according to websters. If you think about about it, ALL soldiers are "skilled" military shooters who are suposed to pick off enemy troops. And I think most soldiers prefer concealed positions rather than ones in the open. So does that mean every soldier on a battlefield is a sniper? No.

I say lets throw out the dictionary definition. The meaning of the word sniper can be debated forever, let alone what websters definition is. As I have said before, the only way to define what a sniper is, is by looking at history. Who in history has been called a sniper, and why?

Range, accuracy, concealment etc etc is ALL reletive to the situation.

Range- Some snipers like marines corps are trained to shoot at 1000 yards, while police snipers rarely shoot 100 yards. So obviously the range is not a factor.

Accuracy- Accuracy is too subjective. I have shown how some markers and players can be more accurate than others, therefore some players would have a greater accuracy. Now, of course they arent as accurate as modern rifles, but if you look in the blackpowder days there were snipers and they had nowhere near the accuracy of the modern sniper. Yet would you deny that they were snipers?

Concealment- As a hunter I know you can easily be invisible in the woods. I have seen airsoft guys and paintballers step on other players that were so well concealed. I have also seen many players be "tapped" out by players who snuck up on them.

Military- You do not have to be in a military organization to be a sniper. Terrorist, police, resistence, militia, etc etc can all be snipers.


I still do not understand why people are so against the word sniper or the idea of snipers. I have seen a few articles in magazines where "real life" police and military snipers have done "sniper training" for players at scenario games. These guys have their own paintball sniper rigs, equipment and ghillie suits. These real world snipers believe in the paintball sniper, why wont the rest of you?

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Old 06-10-2005, 06:08 PM   #83
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why can't you talk about silencers?
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Old 06-12-2005, 08:46 AM   #84
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"Silencers" are considered taboo here because of the vagueness in the ATF laws regarding suppressors/silencers on other than gunpowder-fueled guns. From what I know of the federal laws, it isn't really illegal, but I am not a federal agent.

As for the sniper debate, I think it boils down to the fact that I don't see a chart for memorizing the forumlae of a bullet's projectile. I mean, let's face it, a SWAT/ERT sniper has an entire booklet that allows him to calculate the effect of the wind on the bullet, the humidity, etc. I don't see that in paintball. By what you guys describe it might as well be an LRRP standing there. They aren't snipers, just really good shots. There has to be a defining line somewhere, and I think it is at the science and training of it all. I think a sniper should automatically have a B.S. in Applied Science attached to his name, but that is just me.
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Old 06-12-2005, 10:33 AM   #85
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ambush Audio pronunciation of "ambusher" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mbsh)
n.

1. The act of lying in wait to attack by surprise.
2. A sudden attack made from a concealed position.
3.
1. Those hiding in order to attack by surprise.
2. The hiding place used for this.
4. A hidden peril or trap.


tr.v. ambushed, ambushing, ambushes

To attack from a concealed position.


[Middle English embush, from Old French embusche, from embuschier, to ambush, from Frankish *boscu, bush, woods.]ambusher n.

Synonyms: ambush, ambuscade, bushwhack, waylay
These verbs mean to attack suddenly and without warning from a concealed place: guerrillas ambushing a platoon; highway robbers ambuscading a stagecoach; a patrol bushwhacked by poachers; a truck waylaid by robbers.


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Source: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Old 06-26-2005, 05:53 PM   #86
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what does that last post supposed to mean. It doesn't make sense and looks like spam to me.
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Old 07-15-2005, 08:53 PM   #87
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He's trying to point out the inadequacy of conventional dictionary definitions. He has succeeded.

And silencers (or supressors) are taboo, they are illegal to create and the Pbreview staff wants nothing to do with them. Therefore it is Pbreview policy to close any thread that delves too deeply into the topic of silencers, the staff does not want to be caught in any legal battles.
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:18 PM   #88
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I have a hard time with the term Sniper in the context of paintball. To me a sniper is a one shot to kill from a longer than average distance using stealth (chilie suit or other camo, slow movement) tatics to avoid detection. Is this a perfect definition? No. This is just my opinion. Sure that would be great to be able to shoot so far away that the person being shot at can not hear or see you, but I have not seen that happen in woods/scenario play.

I think other terms such as Stealth and Ambush might be what we are really talking about when we apply the word 'sniper' to a style of play. This is in contrast to the recball or speedball guys that like to move quick and throw mass paint. Just a different style of play.

I dress in digi camo and use a c98/flatline and 50 round camo painted hopper. One new guy called me a sniper and It was all I could do to keep from laughing at him. I do move slowly, use cover and fire shots only when I think I have a good chance of actually hitting the target. That is just my style of play. I love working with one other player and get flanking positions undetected.

So I think that SOME tatics that snipers use are helpfull in some gameplay, but the Hollywood 'sniper' is not in paintball in my opinion.

Most important is having fun however you play.

Last edited by cactus : 07-20-2005 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:48 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by rakim
Someone probably mentioned it but you're a idiot for comparing the AK47 and the SVD. They're both russian made guns, and that's were the similarities end. They don't use the same cartridge, they don't even have the same mechanism. Read up before dropping a ******* line like that in the future.
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Based on the Kalashnikov rifle family (AK-47 and variants), the design for the Dragunov was requested in 1958 and delivered in 1963 by Evgeniy Fedorovich Dragunov (Russian: ). It fires a cartridge dating back to 1891 - 7.62 x 54R Russian "rimmed" cartridge from the early Mosin-Nagant bolt action design - with the semi-automatic gas actuated design of the AK-47. The weapon was commissioned in order to extend the range of a typical Soviet infantry platoon, and was required to be cheap, rugged and effective at its intended job. Long after the demise of Russia's command economy, it remains in production, testament to its success.
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Old 07-22-2005, 12:24 AM   #90
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Oh yeah?

"The Dragunov bears a close resembelance to the AK series of weapons, but it has been extensively re-engineered to meet the demands of the sniping role. It is semi-automatic, but the gas system works with a short stroke piston, rather than the AK's long stroke to improve accuracy.[...] It has a first shot range of around 1000m and it is able to achieve this range by swapping the AK's 7.62mm Short cartridge for the older rimmed 7.62x54R cartridge, the ancestry of which stretches back to the late 19th century". Twentieth-Century Small Arms

See? For you it probably doesn't sound like much though, but I guess you'll understand the day your father lets you touch his squirrel gun.
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Old 07-22-2005, 07:36 AM   #91
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We need a smiley of a ref blowing a whistle...come on guys, this is a paintball sniping thread, NOT the "characteristic differences between Weapon A and Weapon B." Personally, I think you guys are both right given the evidence you suggested says roughly the same thing, you guys just aren't catching the syntax. So let it die.
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Old 07-27-2005, 01:04 PM   #92
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Sniping in the military is a deadly buisness. A 2 man, sniper/spotter team is deployed most commonly to gather intellegence and occasionaly take out a target.

In paintball, the idea of the sniper is to distrupt and hold back the OP4 (opposition force).

During a game, if a single ball whizzes by your head, do you know where it came from? no of course not. But i garentee that your head will be down from that point on.

No matter what people tell you, ghuille suits work! After i veg out the suit to match the terrain, i become invisible to the human eye from 25+feet. Any closer and they might just trip over me.

Quiet equipment is deffinately a virtue.

Stealth is the biggest key. If you cannot get within range of your target undetected, you're a dead man. Quiet movement is key. Shoot and scoot.

Its not the gun that makes the sniper in paintball, its the tactics and strategies he uses.

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Old 09-09-2005, 04:20 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by IronCorps
Sniping in the military is a deadly buisness. A 2 man, sniper/spotter team is deployed most commonly to gather intellegence and occasionaly take out a target.

Don't forget that they share ONE count them ONE gun betweent the two of them.
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Old 09-09-2005, 04:45 PM   #94
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In the United States Army the spotter will commonly carry an M4 carbine.
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Old 09-20-2005, 08:41 AM   #95
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There really exists no such thing. Really.
Define a sniper. Someone who shoots from a concealed position?
Isnt that what everyone aims to do in the sport? Shot but not be shot? Shoot and get people out without giving away your position.
Everyone is a sniper in this case.
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Old 09-20-2005, 12:00 PM   #96
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In your eyes prehaps. But consider this: Compare the trained sniper who actually knows what hes doing, to the noob with a 21" barrel who just calls himself a sniper. Obviosly one of them is going to bring down the image of the professional sniper.
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Old 09-20-2005, 06:09 PM   #97
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But both want to shoot from a concealed position. Kill and not be seen.
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Old 09-20-2005, 07:59 PM   #98
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Both want to, only one will be effective at it. THAT is the difference between a 'sniper' and a noob with a long barrel etc.

Also take into account a great many of us would like to score eliminations without being pin-pointed but don't consider it a nessecity. Speedball, or more open wooded areas place importance on remaining undetected, but it is not imperative to do so. In some ways having you position known can be MORE effective than having it not known. If you are holding a key bunker and want to flank the enemy on the other side of the field don't you want them concentrating on this key bunker? If you hit the snake in the arena don't you want the other team knowing you are there so as to take some heat off of your other front men? Granted the second example provides ample oppurtunity for utilizing surprise even AFTER the opposition knows you are present, but both are good examples of tactics and situations where being undetected is not only unnessecary but IMHO unwanted.
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Old 12-10-2005, 10:04 PM   #99
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LOL, My sister is the best "sniper" I know. All the guys I play with fear her. She is really quiet (personality wise too), moves quickly but stealthily, uses mainly hit and run tactics, occasionally camps, and is like a human radar system. She knows where everyone is at all times (her full situational awareness is eerie...), tells our team the opponents' positions, disappears for a lil bit, and comes back after scoring a few elims. Later, everyone talks about how they were eliminated out of nowhere, and she just gives her calm, scary little evil smile. I think it is interesting to note that she accomplishes this with a stock, average Spyder (a TL), and your everyday run-of-the-mill woodland camo. She uses no special equipment whatsoever.

I personally have only had some one/few shot elims, so I am more of a marksman. I alternate between the "spray 'n' pray"/"rapin' by a-paintin'" and "sniper"/conservative play styles, just to mix it up. You've got to admit , it's a real treat to hose down the field every now and then, within reason. The key purpose here is to have fun, not be a hardass. (*Thinks of funny pic of TP for hardasses, which consists of a cheese grater on a roll... )

In short, I am set up more like a one-man assault force, whereas my sister is more like a "sniper"/rebel guerrilla fighter/ambusher.

EDIT: BTW, it IS possible to get one/few shot elims in speedball, as I have racked up a few myself (in full camo I might add), but that is VERY rare.
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Old 12-11-2005, 01:11 AM   #100
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I'm going to go through and rewrite some of the suggestions, I think, although my basic idea still remains, it is possible to apply similar tactics, training (if you have it) and concepts to paintball.

I actually had the pleasure of playing against my area's sniper/marksman this summer when playing a 3 vs. 3 attack/defend game, he double tapped me when I was caught up suppressing someone else, his first shot missed, but his second shot hit my knee (I was crouching, so my knee was only slightly below my centre of mass). I never saw it coming.

Sequence of events:

1. I advance to the far right flank, I have a river at my back, a fallen tree for cover and a clear field of fire into dead ground which the enemy must advance down sooner or later, although my view is slightly obstructed so I cannot see my captain, or the far end of the dead ground.

2. Our captain takes the middle, which has some cover and a view into the same dead ground as the one I watch, but can see further into it.

3. The newb also goes to the middle, and watches the same direction as the captain, instead of guarding our left flank, which our captain tells him to do, as he hears a noise, even I heard the command, but the newb ignores him.

5. Enemy appears on the far end of the dead ground, but I cannot see him, he and the captain begin to trade shots, I remain in place though, as I have no clue where he is and little cover ahead of me.

6. The enemy on our left flank who was lying in wait opens fire, he immediately take out the newb and opens fire on the captain.

7. The captain turns to face the threat, and I, to relieve him, advance forward and inward and begin suppression firing on the guy at the far end of the dead zone, even though he is too well covered to hit.

8. I get double tapped by the sniper, who was waiting in undergrowth on a ridge to the middle left side of the dead zone.

9. The flanker takes out the captain.
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