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Old 07-23-2002, 05:34 PM   #41
thebluenu
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Wink

i dont recommend battery acid.....
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Old 07-23-2002, 05:43 PM   #42
armax
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lol....true...that would be an understatement.
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Old 08-10-2002, 06:44 AM   #43
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The lenses in the paintball goggles are a type of plastic labeled as 'poly-carbonate' (more durabile and lighter than CR 39 which is the more common plastic usede to make lenses for glasses, swimming goggles, and lower impact sports like basketball.) While many of these lenses MIGHT
NOT weaken immediately due to the use of solvent cleaners the higer end goggles will have AR (anti-reflective) coatings that do.

AR coatings help the lens to not reflect light thus allowing more light to pass through the lens. This in turn allows for better vision by having less glare on the lens. Regular solvent cleaners (eg. Windex) will break down this coating and thus reduce the visiblity. It will first seem like streaking that doesn' want to go away which are actually scratches in the coating. As they are cleaned again to remove the streaks the AR coating is cleaned off thus the streaks are gone. However the visibility will be less due to the loss of the coating and the increase in glare.

This is the same principle with tent. Any solvent cleaner with ammonia will slowly harm the tenting on lenses. The non-ammonia version of windex (the clear kind) will not hurt the tent but will destroy the AR coating.

Also, as far as alcohol goes, this is not good for the lenses that have the "anti fog" coating instead of the double lens (eg. BE Xtreme 280). The alcohol can react with the chemicals in the anti fog coating to produce a smoke effect in the coating. Therfore you end up with a permanently fogged mask.

As for lens strength, yes the cleaners do break them down over time. In fact, flouride in tap water can weaken them over time (don't worry, we are talking about a really long time on this one).

So what does one use? I have worked in despensing in an optometist office and in an optical lab for over 10 years and have seen many different failed attempts to "clean" sports lenses (paintball, raquetball, shooting glasses, baseball, etc.). Here is what I would suggest from my experience with these lenses and other lenses of this type. The simple fact is, if you use them often and care for your eyes, replace them occassionally (more often in paintball than the others due to the higher impact and smaller projectile). Get on the internet, search for you type lens and occassionally invest the 10 - 30 bucks for some new eye protection.

Secondly, water is free and easy to come by. I would always suggest it first to clean with water and only WATER on the inside of the lens. Yes anti fog products are ok, but these are not cleaners and should only be applied when the lens is clean.

On the outside, if you really must use a cleaner other than water (and you really don't need to, but if you must) do what ARMAX said, "call your [respective] goggle company" (brackets mine) or your local optician and ask them for suggestions on a cleaner to use. Make sure that it is a tye cleaner that works well with the anti-reflective coating on the lens and is anti-static (keeps dust and other small particles from settleing on your lenses and makes a considerable difference). If you go this way, also get an empty spray bottle and dilute the cleaner in water. A 3:1 (water:cleaner) ratio would be my suggestion.

Conclusion: (MHO)
1) Replace your lenses after a year or two (pending on use) or sooner if shot otfen.

2) Water is the best cleaner. (Plus you can get a great deal on it).

3) Do NOT use solvent cleaners, it simply is not good for your lens in so many different ways.

4) If you have the anti-fog coating use ONLY water on the inside and use anti-fog products only after cleaing the inside.

5) If you must use a cleaner call the goggle company or a local optician/optometrist for a suggested anti-static cleaner.

6) Always use a soft clean cloth to wipe your lenses and do so gently.

Hope this was somewhat helpful.
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Old 08-10-2002, 10:47 AM   #44
armax
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I and the techs at Vforce, JTusa and Dye will disagree. Those solvents will not harm the coatings that are present on the goggles. Please call the teachs at any of this companys and ask if you disagree. They are the experts at their products and would definitely be the formost authority on this topic.
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:00 PM   #45
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It's your eyes so do as you please, but I have seen and had to replace many cracked and broken sports lenses. Any aceatone, alcohol, ammonia, or other cleaner that contains these chemicals will break down polycarbonate plastic, which is what is used to make these lenses. These are not the guesses or musings of a "junior chemist," this is from someone who has worked around these products for several years.

These "techs" that you speak of, are they people who work on the development and testing of these lenses or are they the people otherwise known as "customer representatives." Not to knock the customer reps, they are simply the messengers, but I seriously doubt that you have been speaking to the "techs." If so give me the number that you called them at I would like to ask them some questions.

The entire purpose of the development of polycarbonate lenses was strength. Using chemicals that break down the bonds of that plastic is going against the point. You would be better off wearing no mask at all then when you go into surgery they don't have to take out fragments of the mask that was broken at 300 f.p.s (200+ mph).

Trust me on this I have worked with sports lenses for somtime and have researched this. You only get one set of eyes, I would hate to think that I lost them just because I wanted to use windex or some other cleaner when water will do just as well (actually better because it will not take off the AR coating nor the tint).

If for no other reason think of it this way. It is for sure that one is not going to harm ones lenses to clean them with water and a soft cloth. Thus one does not have to worry about buying cleaner nor having to buy a replacement lens sooner than one should. Gee, you save money and your eyes all the way around.

But hey, like I said, they are your eyes. However, I would hate to think that I gave advice based one what an individual told me over the phone who's qualifications to be a "tech" were that they happened to be at the other end of the phone number that I called. Sometimes customer service rep and those who quote them might actually be your "junior chemists."
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:22 PM   #46
armax
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you can speak to joe at the JTusa TECH department, not a customer representative...the only chemical that would break down lenses would be acetone. Again, I'm taking the word of the TECH personnel at the various goggle manufacturers. They know their product and are emphatic about the fact that it does NOT degrade the structural integrity of the lense. I understand your concern but unless you're able to prove that isoprophyll alchohol is capable of altering the structural integrity of the lense, I say to everyone CALL THE TECH DEPARTMENT OF YOUR GOGGLE COMPANY AND ASK instead of taking our word for it. I agree that water is probably the best cleaner but I will not spread false information about the compromising of lense strength with other cleaners. I would agree with you if I had spoke to the customer representatives and not the qualified tech. Again, I would not surmise anything that would be slanderous to a product without having absolute proof of my claim. So one more time, CALL THE TECH DEPARTMENT OF YOUR GOGGLE COMPANY AND ASK IF YOUR PROPOSED CLEANER ALTERS THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY OF YOUR LENSE and ask WHY certain products are not suggested. They have varying reasons, none of which have anything to do with structural integrity.
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:23 PM   #47
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by the way, I looked up the phone numbers by doing a search and asking for the tech department. I'm sure you'll be able to do the same.
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:25 PM   #48
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However, if you are insistent on listening only to the "tech" instead of MHO, here is an example of what they have to say about solvent cleaners such as Windex or others that contian alcohol.

http://www.dyeprecision.com/main.html

Go here, click on the invision mask in the upper center of the window, then the area that says data "lower to the right of center), then download the pdf file of the manual. Look on pages 12 and 13 of that manual for what the "techs" say.
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:34 PM   #49
armax
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windex, 409 or other household chemicals may damage lenses

just read it, now call them up, ask for the tech department and ask if the these chemicals will compromise the structural integrity of the lenses....I bet their answer is no. if you read it, the dont suggest windex or 409...the reason according to the techs was that people using them may put the mask on and irritate their eyes from the fumes if put on too soon. the damage of the lenses may come from other cleaners with acetone...not necessarily windex or 409 (both of which I asked about in relation to structural integrity....a resounding NO by the techs.)

but we could argue this all day, the best thing to do is to CALL THE TECH DEPARTMENT OF YOUR GOGGLE COMPANY AND ASK WHY CERTAIN CLEANERS MAY NOT BE SUGGESTED...there will be differing reasons and for most chemicals, have nothing to do with structural integrity. in fact, when I talked to Dye, their response was that they had a coating awhile back that was susceptible to alcohol but has since changed the composition of their coating and alcohol is no longer in issue.....dont' believe me....ask them...
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Old 08-10-2002, 01:46 PM   #50
armax
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In fact, I will go one step further. I'll not only recall the goggle companies, I will also inquire about the actual manufacturer of the lense itself and call. I'll inquire about the actual composition of the lense as well. My wife is a chemical engineer out here at Dow Chemical and I'll have her look up up chemicals that may be caustic to polycarbonate lenses (I'm assuming that the lenses are industry standard, high impact polycarbonates, we'll see...). I'm just rather annoyed at the presumptions people make without data or facts to back them up. So I'll pop back here and give the results of my research.
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Old 08-10-2002, 02:09 PM   #51
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The data to back them up? The manuals that come with the mask clearly state "Warning: Clean only with plain water. Chemical cleaners (Windex, 409, Simple Green, etc.) contain alcohol and detergents which can WEAKEN the lens and goggle." That is what is known as a quote, not an assumption.

2nd truth and not an assumption, I have seen it personally. Not calling the service reps, not even looking at manuals, I have seen the results of these chemicals on polycarb and other plastic lenses. It wears them down. Will it break every pair, no. But getting on a web board and stating that "...alcohol...are all safe to use on lenses" (other cleaning methods in that statement, soap and water ommited from the quote because they can be safe). That is a false assumption.
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Old 08-10-2002, 02:17 PM   #52
armax
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sabo, not according to the techs.....CALL THEM! I looked at the manual and the statement about weakening the lenses didn't necessarily imply windex, etc....but a blanket statement to waiver the use of any other cleaners (I'm sure it keeps them legally safe from someone cleaning their lenses with mauratic acid and blaming the company)...again, instead of arguing about it....call them....
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Old 08-10-2002, 02:19 PM   #53
armax
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In fact, you're quoting them as a point of reference. Why not call them and have them elaborate their statement? It'll save all the bickering here.
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Old 08-10-2002, 02:20 PM   #54
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I give up, say as you please. However, these chemicals can cause harm to paintball lenses, (and many other types of plastics for that matter). It's your eyes, take care of them because I have seen the results of many who don't. If you want to take the risk, it is out of my hands but not for lack of trying. Talk to any optician, the people who make, cut, shape, and deal with these lenses day in and day out and they will tell you do not use cleaners with alcohol and/or solvents in them. They can break down the coatings and eventually the lens. It's your call. Use JUST water and a soft cloth, it will take care of your goggles. save you windex for the windows.
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Old 08-10-2002, 02:29 PM   #55
armax
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you're right about ammonia as well.

http://www.usgr.com/greenhouse-cover...carbonate.html

in fact, here is the physical properties of polycarbonates.
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Old 08-10-2002, 02:31 PM   #56
armax
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In fact, the previous post is a link to what is safe, could weaken and will weaken the lense (given it's polycarbonate).

If you need more, I'll do more research.
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Old 08-10-2002, 03:58 PM   #57
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SABO is right. If it's anything other then water, don't use it.

You people are forgetting, water works best too! Wipe the lense with a cloth (not a paper product like a paper towel! the wood fibers will scratch your lense) and go to a water fountain or sink. Turn the water on so that it's a gently, smooth stream, uninturupted, and not sprayin everywhere. Put your mask under the stream so that the top or bottom of the lense will be incontact, making sure the lense is angled, so the water slidesdown and off the lense. Slowly move the mask so the water goes over ever part of the lense at one point.

It works better then anything I've ever tryed, or have since.
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Old 08-10-2002, 04:23 PM   #58
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Thanks to both of you, I wan't trying to be argumentative, just trying to be as safe as possible, the site was very imformative armax.
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Old 08-10-2002, 11:20 PM   #59
armax
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thank you sabo. I do understand your concern and don't want to see anyone hurt. richyC. is right, when I did talk to the tech guys at the goggle companies one of the things that continued to pop up was "why? water is the best thing anyhow". I guess in the long run (and for the sake of those who don't read the labels of cleaning products) it's best to just use water. 'nough said.
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Old 08-11-2002, 09:55 AM   #60
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Easiest way to clean!

This is the easiest way that I have seen to get all the paint out from all the little cracks on a mask. Take a sink or small container fill it with enough water to cover your mask & lense. Then just let the mask soak for a few hours or overnight.
I just did this for the first time with my Invision and it got all the paint out from between the lense & mask. I'm not sure if this will remove the shell from that area b/c I didnt have any shell stuck down in there, however it dissolves all paint. This also removes all sweat and stains from the foam and strap. I also know a person who adds an extremely mild soap to get stains out but I dont trust my lense w/ anything but water on it.

Last edited by Deerslayer : 08-11-2002 at 10:12 AM.
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