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Old 11-21-2005, 06:24 PM   #1
jimbolo393
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icd promaster

How many bps does the icd promaster get im a big speed ball player....and is it worth 380$? plz tell me i have 3 years paintball expirence.....and give me a rate 1-10 on its perfomance
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Old 11-21-2005, 06:29 PM   #2
gggplaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbolo393
How many bps does the icd promaster get im a big speed ball player....and is it worth 380$? plz tell me i have 3 years paintball expirence.....and give me a rate 1-10 on its perfomance
It'll shoot as fast as you can load it.

It features uncapped semi and uncapped ramping. Or flip a dip switch and it caps it to 15bps.
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Old 11-21-2005, 06:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbolo393
How many bps does the icd promaster get im a big speed ball player....and is it worth 380$? plz tell me i have 3 years paintball expirence.....and give me a rate 1-10 on its perfomance
The ProMaster is a 8.5 on a 10 scale. There are little things that can be improved to raise the rating. These things are all minor.

The addition of the following would increase the rating of the ProMAster in my opinion.

Clamping Feed neck
ASA
Better grips

These are three little things that could be improved over the stock or lack of a stock item.

I challenge you to find another marker in this price range that offers you everything that comes in the ProMaster and find it for a cheaper price than you can get the ProMaster for!!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by lotus_esprit5
no silly, Greg is ICD God. Who do you think makes all the Bushmasters? Shootpaint is like the ICD Jesus, cultivating the minds of the faithful and spreading the word throughout the unenlightened masses .
Except not quite as jewish.
(to any real live jews out there, I'm jk, its all in good fun )
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1) Custom FreeStyle solid blue ano with Silver highlights
2) Custom Solid Red FreeStyle Bone stock)
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Old 11-21-2005, 06:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootPaint
The ProMaster is a 8.5 on a 10 scale. There are little things that can be improved to raise the rating. These things are all minor.

The addition of the following would increase the rating of the ProMAster in my opinion.

Clamping Feed neck
ASA
Better grips

These are three little things that could be improved over the stock or lack of a stock item.

I challenge you to find another marker in this price range that offers you everything that comes in the ProMaster and find it for a cheaper price than you can get the ProMaster for!!!
Hate to say it but an ion comes pretty darn close. The ProMaster is better IMO but the ion is certainly not far behind.
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:42 PM   #5
ShootPaint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Hate to say it but an ion comes pretty darn close. The ProMaster is better IMO but the ion is certainly not far behind.
I figured the ION would be brought up.

Lets look at these to markers a little closer and see why the ProMaster is truely a better marker than the ION.

First and foremost the ProMaster is 100% aluminum construction, no composite body!

Secondly the ION stock trigger is just about as bad as the trigger in any other SP marker. The stock ION trigger is a plastic/composite that has major flex in it!!! IMHO you need to replace the stock trigger to be able to get the marker to preform with any real consistantcy.

The ProMaster on the other hand has and aluminum trigger with three external adjustments for the trigger as well as two selectable pivot points. You can change the trigger out if you like but it isnt needed.

Next lets go onto the eyes. Granted both markers now have break beam eyes but there is a major advantage to the ProMaster. The ION uses circuit board mounted eyes. Most players dont have the proper tools to do a component replacement. The ProMaster has its eyes attached directly to the harness which makes for a much easier replacement should they ever fail.

Next we come to the solenoid.
The ION has a exposed coil in for the solenoid. This is bad anyway you look at it. The only thing that protects the noid in the ION is the enamel coating on the coil wires.
The ProMaster has a sealed coil. This keeps dirt and debrit from getting into the coil of the noid and removing the enamel coating on the wire.
If the ION's enamel coating gets scratched off of the coil wire it will allow it to short out and cause problems in the solenoid, at bare minimum, as well as the chance of causing a failure in the board due to a high current draw (depending on where the coil is shorted)

There are also additional items you would need to add to the ION to get it to the cycling speed of the ProMaster. You would need to install a QEV to allow the ION To cycle into the high 20's/low 30's cps range. The ProMaster can achieve this right out of the box.

Unless there has been a software upgrade on the ION that I am not aware of the ProMaster now has a more adjustable board than the ION, with more firing modes as well.

Common problems in the ION, that I have seen.

Feed necks stripping out
Coil failure on the solenoid
board failures due to solenoid problems
Main oring on HPR getting chopped on initial gassing of marker

Common Problems with the ProMaster
Improper reg adjustments (user error refer to manual more!!!)
Some early model ProMasters had the QEV hole on the ram assembly drilled to far forward causing a leak that made it look as though the noid was bad. The simple addition of a oring to the back spring guide cured this problem.

Now you can spend your $290 on a ION or your $385 on a ProMaster, it is your choice but I would rather have a all aluminum body marker due to its durability as compared to a marker that has a throw away shell.

Before anyone even says you can replace the ION shell if it gets scratched, or cracked, etc.... I understand this but my point is if your shell can be damaged you can damage the internals of the marker as well. There is only a very thin aluminum shell in the interior of the ION. If the shell fails this interior aluminum will do so as well and it can lead to the internals being damaged as well.

Just my thoughts. You may get after my statement now. I will be more than willing to discuss this if someone so chooses too.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by lotus_esprit5
no silly, Greg is ICD God. Who do you think makes all the Bushmasters? Shootpaint is like the ICD Jesus, cultivating the minds of the faithful and spreading the word throughout the unenlightened masses .
Except not quite as jewish.
(to any real live jews out there, I'm jk, its all in good fun )
ShootPaint.com for all your ICD needs.
Factory Trained and authorized ICD Tech.

1) Custom FreeStyle solid blue ano with Silver highlights
2) Custom Solid Red FreeStyle Bone stock)
3) B2K
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Old 11-21-2005, 09:13 PM   #6
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Not trying to hijack thread here just responding
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootPaint
I figured the ION would be brought up.

Lets look at these to markers a little closer and see why the ProMaster is truely a better marker than the ION.

First and foremost the ProMaster is 100% aluminum construction, no composite body! True but the compostie shell is next to indistructible, shall get into details further down

Secondly the ION stock trigger is just about as bad as the trigger in any other SP marker. The stock ION trigger is a plastic/composite that has major flex in it!!! IMHO you need to replace the stock trigger to be able to get the marker to preform with any real consistantcy. Even with an upgraded trigger I can only shoot one bps faster than with my stock trigger (14 compared to 13 and thats in semi on two almost identical ions)

The ProMaster on the other hand has and aluminum trigger with three external adjustments for the trigger as well as two selectable pivot points. You can change the trigger out if you like but it isnt needed.This is one true advantage the promaster does have if you are really really picky on trigger placement. Not saying thats a bad thing but I have yet to fire a trigger that bothered or caused me to want to immediately replace and or adjust it.

Next lets go onto the eyes. Granted both markers now have break beam eyes but there is a major advantage to the ProMaster. The ION uses circuit board mounted eyes. Most players dont have the proper tools to do a component replacement. The ProMaster has its eyes attached directly to the harness which makes for a much easier replacement should they ever fail. True but how much deos that harness cost to replace if you break it. And if you need to replace them there are more than enough new replacements floating around for about the same price as replacement components for other markers. Not to mention all one has to do to replace is unplug harness (which costs $4 from sp), plug in new components, and place back into breech.

Next we come to the solenoid.
The ION has a exposed coil in for the solenoid. This is bad anyway you look at it. The only thing that protects the noid in the ION is the enamel coating on the coil wires.
The ProMaster has a sealed coil. This keeps dirt and debrit from getting into the coil of the noid and removing the enamel coating on the wire.
If the ION's enamel coating gets scratched off of the coil wire it will allow it to short out and cause problems in the solenoid, at bare minimum, as well as the chance of causing a failure in the board due to a high current draw (depending on where the coil is shorted) If someone manages to have dirt get under their grip cover or is foolish enough to drop the solenoid on the ground and or not wiping off their hands with something before handling the internals they dont need to be dealing with the gun. Not to mention even when I am dissassembling my ion I make sure not to touch the coil which isnt that hard to do. Also in the black heart board the solenoid has a plastic cover over it.

There are also additional items you would need to add to the ION to get it to the cycling speed of the ProMaster. You would need to install a QEV to allow the ION To cycle into the high 20's/low 30's cps range. The ProMaster can achieve this right out of the box. True but who can actually shoot that fast in true semi, how many hoppers can consistently feed that fast, and how many tournamnets/fields that do allow ramping/full auto have rules that allow anything to shoot even 2/3's of that speed?

Unless there has been a software upgrade on the ION that I am not aware of the ProMaster now has a more adjustable board than the ION, with more firing modes as well. Any of the aftermarket boards that are just now being released such as the virtue, tboard, and blackheart board have a good deal more modes than the promaster.

Common problems in the ION, that I have seen.

Feed necks stripping out Generally caused by someone being careless and a little to rough with threading them in or out, but I do agree the impulse threads are a bit small and easily stripable if your not careful about it.
Coil failure on the solenoid Never heard of it or seen it happen
board failures due to solenoid problems
Main oring on HPR getting chopped on initial gassing of marker Probably usually happens because user did no research or checking of manual before gassing up the marker. Because if they had they would know before gassing up for the first time you must turn the reg all the way down.

Common Problems with the ProMaster
Improper reg adjustments (user error refer to manual more!!!)
Some early model ProMasters had the QEV hole on the ram assembly drilled to far forward causing a leak that made it look as though the noid was bad. The simple addition of a oring to the back spring guide cured this problem.

Now you can spend your $290 on a ION or your $385 on a ProMaster, it is your choice but I would rather have a all aluminum body marker due to its durability as compared to a marker that has a throw away shell. For the price difference you can get a new aluminum shell for the ion. And trust me the ion's shell isnt meant to be a throw away component. I'm pretty sure sp designed it so the look of the marker can be easily and quickly changed. Try to completely change the color of an aluminum bodied gun with a long lasting durable finish without annodizing or powder coating it (I left out painting it because paint can easily chip and isnt that long lasting). Also get a big scratch in that aluminum body and try having it fixed for less than $40. Probably cant be done unless you own all the equipment and chemicals to do it (which the majority of marker owners do not)

Before anyone even says you can replace the ION shell if it gets scratched, or cracked, etc.... I understand this but my point is if your shell can be damaged you can damage the internals of the marker as well. There is only a very thin aluminum shell in the interior of the ION. If the shell fails this interior aluminum will do so as well and it can lead to the internals being damaged as well. Lets just say a member on these forums took a small sledge hammer to the ions compostie shell and it took three hard swings to even crack it. And still after that it was in no way structurally compromised. Also another member's ion went through hurricane katrina and came out still fully functional. And last time I held the interals they are far thicker aluminum than timmy ram tubes and not anything near thin, and trust me they wont break easily if ever.(by break I have aluminum parts physically break in half or crack)

Just my thoughts. You may get after my statement now. I will be more than willing to discuss this if someone so chooses too.
Not dogging on the promaster. Heck once I saw the price drop from right under $500 or so down to $385 I was considering getting one if I hadnt already bought an Ion. But it really bothers me when the main arguement someone has against the ion is the composite trigger and shell. The trigger isnt that great but it can be fixed/replaced for not very much money at all. I'm not sure how trigger adjustments are defined but I think the Ion is 3 way since pre travel, post travel, and magnetic tension can be adjusted after installing an aftermarket trigger. (the stock one's magnetic tensstion can be changed by completely removing the magnet or heating for a short period at high heats to slightly de magnetize it). And the shell is far more durable than many aluminum bodies in regards to scratching, not to mention the color will never really fade since the composite is completely impregnated with the pigment that gives it its color.
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Old 11-21-2005, 10:00 PM   #7
gggplaya
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i'll agree with some of that to a point.

Board and solenoid aren't bad on the ion. Only way solenoid will get ruined is from noob user error. I've never seen one get shorted out. Have seen people ripped the plastic barb off. Ion solenoid is easier to service then a humphreys. Cheaper to replace too. $35 vs. $75.

Second, the gun and all firing components are made of aluminum. The shell is just to cover up the ugly unmilled components. If the shell get's damage, nothing will happen to the internals, they are covered by aluminum. I don't think you've ever taken one apart yourself.

Ion trigger does suck. I couldn't hit over 11bps with it in semi. Just impossible. No matter how i adjusted.

Eyes are fine, that isn't a factor because you can buy a new G7 type lazer eye board from lucky paintball for $25. Eyes would cost you $12 anyways to replace.

Ion is a good gun for the money, with an aftermarket bolt. The Promaster could never come close to the lack of kick the ion has. Your comparing spool vs. Ram type markers. It's a personal preference.

I own both, and too be honest, the promaster i know won't let me down in the middle of a game. The ion however, blows hose's every once in a while. And takes a few minutes to replace. So you have to sit out a game or 2.
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Old 11-21-2005, 10:04 PM   #8
ShootPaint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by ShootPaint
I figured the ION would be brought up.

Lets look at these to markers a little closer and see why the ProMaster is truely a better marker than the ION.

First and foremost the ProMaster is 100% aluminum construction, no composite body! True but the compostie shell is next to indistructible, shall get into details further down

Secondly the ION stock trigger is just about as bad as the trigger in any other SP marker. The stock ION trigger is a plastic/composite that has major flex in it!!! IMHO you need to replace the stock trigger to be able to get the marker to preform with any real consistantcy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Even with an upgraded trigger I can only shoot one bps faster than with my stock trigger (14 compared to 13 and thats in semi on two almost identical ions)

I think you discuss this a little further below. I will put the basic info here as to why I think the ION trigger should be replaced. With the stock trigger you have no adjustments. You have to goto a aftermarket trigger to be able to get some adjustments. This is additional money over the standard cost of $290


The ProMaster on the other hand has and aluminum trigger with three external adjustments for the trigger as well as two selectable pivot points. You can change the trigger out if you like but it isnt needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
This is one true advantage the promaster does have if you are really really picky on trigger placement. Not saying thats a bad thing but I have yet to fire a trigger that bothered or caused me to want to immediately replace and or adjust it.

You must not be as picky as I am then. I have shot several IONs and I absolutely hate the stock trigger. It has to have one of if not the longest trigger pull I have ever felt. This makes it very hard for me to achieve and kinda of rof unless the marker is ramping

Next lets go onto the eyes. Granted both markers now have break beam eyes but there is a major advantage to the ProMaster. The ION uses circuit board mounted eyes. Most players dont have the proper tools to do a component replacement. The ProMaster has its eyes attached directly to the harness which makes for a much easier replacement should they ever fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
True but how much deos that harness cost to replace if you break it. And if you need to replace them there are more than enough new replacements floating around for about the same price as replacement components for other markers. Not to mention all one has to do to replace is unplug harness (which costs $4 from sp), plug in new components, and place back into breech.

I have no idea of the cost for the board replacement. I am simply speculating on the cheapest replacement which is to replace the emitter or reciever, whichever one goes bad. If the entire board for their ACE system is only $4 then that isnt to bad

Next we come to the solenoid.
The ION has a exposed coil in for the solenoid. This is bad anyway you look at it. The only thing that protects the noid in the ION is the enamel coating on the coil wires.
The ProMaster has a sealed coil. This keeps dirt and debrit from getting into the coil of the noid and removing the enamel coating on the wire.
If the ION's enamel coating gets scratched off of the coil wire it will allow it to short out and cause problems in the solenoid, at bare minimum, as well as the chance of causing a failure in the board due to a high current draw (depending on where the coil is shorted)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
If someone manages to have dirt get under their grip cover or is foolish enough to drop the solenoid on the ground and or not wiping off their hands with something before handling the internals they dont need to be dealing with the gun. Not to mention even when I am dissassembling my ion I make sure not to touch the coil which isnt that hard to do. Also in the black heart board the solenoid has a plastic cover over it.

I am not sure where you are playing or how you are playing but I can tell you that my markers always have a little dirt in them at the end of the day. This doesnt matter if I am shooting a ICD marker or XYZ marker. The fact is the coil being exposed makes it much easier for the noid to be damaged. This doesnt matter if it is intentional or not. You stated you can replace the stock board with a upgraded board. This board offers a plastic cover for the noid coil. Question is what is the cost of the upgrade? This is an additional fee that you would have to spend on the ION over the base $290.

The solenoid in the ProMaster does not require this upgrade so its base price has stayed the same


There are also additional items you would need to add to the ION to get it to the cycling speed of the ProMaster. You would need to install a QEV to allow the ION To cycle into the high 20's/low 30's cps range. The ProMaster can achieve this right out of the box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
True but who can actually shoot that fast in true semi, how many hoppers can consistently feed that fast, and how many tournamnets/fields that do allow ramping/full auto have rules that allow anything to shoot even 2/3's of that speed?

Does it really matter on any of the above questions??? If that is your argument then why not simply purchase a Electronic Grip Spyder clone marker. They are able to shoot at 20 bps. This is another area where you can compare the two markers out of the box. When a marker has a higher cycling rates this is a direct indication of that markers ability to flow air through itself. Without any upgrades to the ProMaster is able to achieve a higher rate of fire. If you want the ION to be in the same ball park you have to install the QEV which is an additional cost to your base $290.

Unless there has been a software upgrade on the ION that I am not aware of the ProMaster now has a more adjustable board than the ION, with more firing modes as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Any of the aftermarket boards that are just now being released such as the virtue, tboard, and blackheart board have a good deal more modes than the promaster.

You are not comparing apples to apples here. I am not talking about upgrades. I am talking about stock markers out of the box. If you choose to upgrade the board on your marker then you must increase the price of the marker from the original base of $290.

Granted any aftermarket board will add function and preformance to your marker that is most likely not found in the stock electronics. This is why people choose to upgrade the boards in teh first place. But why do it if you dont have to? The ProMaster board comes with four different firing modes that allow it to be tourny legal for any Major PB Tourny while allowing the owner to shoot the desired mode for that event. He can also adjust the dwell and trigger debounce as well.


Common problems in the ION, that I have seen.

Feed necks stripping out
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Generally caused by someone being careless and a little to rough with threading them in or out, but I do agree the impulse threads are a bit small and easily stripable if your not careful about it.

These are simply the problems I have seen with the ION's that have come through our store
Coil failure on the solenoid
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Never heard of it or seen it happen
board failures due to solenoid problems
Main oring on HPR getting chopped on initial gassing of marker
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Probably usually happens because user did no research or checking of manual before gassing up the marker. Because if they had they would know before gassing up for the first time you must turn the reg all the way down.

This has happened to me on two different occasions. One marker was even returned to SP to have the issue resolved. Funny thing is it still did the same thing after it came back. To resolve the issue the customer simply replaced the reg.
Both times the regs where set to zero spring tension before gassing the marker up.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by lotus_esprit5
no silly, Greg is ICD God. Who do you think makes all the Bushmasters? Shootpaint is like the ICD Jesus, cultivating the minds of the faithful and spreading the word throughout the unenlightened masses .
Except not quite as jewish.
(to any real live jews out there, I'm jk, its all in good fun )
ShootPaint.com for all your ICD needs.
Factory Trained and authorized ICD Tech.

1) Custom FreeStyle solid blue ano with Silver highlights
2) Custom Solid Red FreeStyle Bone stock)
3) B2K
ShootPaint is offline  
Old 11-21-2005, 10:06 PM   #9
ShootPaint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Originally Posted by ShootPaint
Common Problems with the ProMaster
Improper reg adjustments (user error refer to manual more!!!)
Some early model ProMasters had the QEV hole on the ram assembly drilled to far forward causing a leak that made it look as though the noid was bad. The simple addition of a oring to the back spring guide cured this problem.

Now you can spend your $290 on a ION or your $385 on a ProMaster, it is your choice but I would rather have a all aluminum body marker due to its durability as compared to a marker that has a throw away shell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
For the price difference you can get a new aluminum shell for the ion. And trust me the ion's shell isnt meant to be a throw away component. I'm pretty sure sp designed it so the look of the marker can be easily and quickly changed. Try to completely change the color of an aluminum bodied gun with a long lasting durable finish without annodizing or powder coating it (I left out painting it because paint can easily chip and isnt that long lasting). Also get a big scratch in that aluminum body and try having it fixed for less than $40. Probably cant be done unless you own all the equipment and chemicals to do it (which the majority of marker owners do not)

I think you missed my point here. I am not talking about how long the color lasts on the body of the marker. I am talking about how long the body of the marker itself lasts!!! Yes you can scratch an aluminum body. I am not going to deny that. My whole point is the composite body isnt as strong as an aluminum body. Again if you choose to ugprade the body of the marker you have to increase the base price of from $290. I think if you go back and look at the various items you stated you could upgrade to achieve the same or better preformance than the stock parts of a ProMaster you will find you have no paid more for the ION than you have for the ProMaster.



Before anyone even says you can replace the ION shell if it gets scratched, or cracked, etc.... I understand this but my point is if your shell can be damaged you can damage the internals of the marker as well. There is only a very thin aluminum shell in the interior of the ION. If the shell fails this interior aluminum will do so as well and it can lead to the internals being damaged as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Lets just say a member on these forums took a small sledge hammer to the ions compostie shell and it took three hard swings to even crack it. And still after that it was in no way structurally compromised. Also another member's ion went through hurricane katrina and came out still fully functional. And last time I held the interals they are far thicker aluminum than timmy ram tubes and not anything near thin, and trust me they wont break easily if ever.(by break I have aluminum parts physically break in half or crack)

I would love to have someone donate a body to me and let me take a sledge to it. There are three key areas where the body should be tested.
1) Around the feed neck
2) Around the gripframe
3) Around the barrel shroud
These are the areas that any marker will be most likely to take damage. This is simply due to the items sticking out from the body in these areas.
If you want you can include a side impact test as well. I however would want these tests preformed with the marker fully assembled. The outer body may not break when it is impacted with a sledge but how do you think the interior of the marker would react? The reason it doesnt break is because it flexes!!! This means the interior aluminum sleeve must then take the remaining forces that the exterior body couldnt absorb. Correct me if I am wrong but the last time I looked the ION's inner aluminum sleeve is what aligns all the internals. If you bend the sleeve then you are going to run a much greater chance of the marker not functioning.

As far as parts breaking aluminum or composite this is kinda of a mute point. Each will have failures. My main point is the aluminum will have a better impact rating than the composite and most likely a better shear rating than the composite as well. This basically means you can slam your barrel straight into the ground and the aluminum body isnt going to get shorter from front to back. With the barrel still in the ground you can pull it from side to side and the aluminum body isnt going to warp.
Composites can be great, but they usually only have one good characteristic. They either have good shear strength or good tensile strength but not both. With this in mind one of the two test above would cause the ION to have a failure far sooner than the ProMaster.

Just my thoughts. You may get after my statement now. I will be more than willing to discuss this if someone so chooses too.

You are stating the obvious and not looking at what you are saying. I agree with you that you can upgrade the ION and make it preform as well as the ProMaster. My question to you is what will the final cost of all the upgrades be when you get to the level of the ProMaster.

The MAP pricing on a ProMaster is roughly $385. I gurantee you can purchase one and have it come with the only part that is missing from it, an ASA for that price. With that part being added you now have both markers fully functional and you have a level playing field at which to compare your pricing, after you have made the upgrades you suggested above for your ION.
__________________
Quote:
Originally posted by lotus_esprit5
no silly, Greg is ICD God. Who do you think makes all the Bushmasters? Shootpaint is like the ICD Jesus, cultivating the minds of the faithful and spreading the word throughout the unenlightened masses .
Except not quite as jewish.
(to any real live jews out there, I'm jk, its all in good fun )
ShootPaint.com for all your ICD needs.
Factory Trained and authorized ICD Tech.

1) Custom FreeStyle solid blue ano with Silver highlights
2) Custom Solid Red FreeStyle Bone stock)
3) B2K

Last edited by ShootPaint : 11-21-2005 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 11-21-2005, 10:17 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gggplaya
i'll agree with some of that to a point.

Board and solenoid aren't bad on the ion. Only way solenoid will get ruined is from noob user error. I've never seen one get shorted out. Have seen people ripped the plastic barb off. Ion solenoid is easier to service then a humphreys. Cheaper to replace too. $35 vs. $75.
I have seen two different markers now with coils go bad. I personally have measured them with a Fluke 87 multimeter to see if the coil had shorted. In both cases the coil on the noid measured under .2ohm.

Second, the gun and all firing components are made of aluminum. The shell is just to cover up the ugly unmilled components. If the shell get's damage, nothing will happen to the internals, they are covered by aluminum. I don't think you've ever taken one apart yourself.
Think again. I have had several of them apart. Just because we sale ICD markers doesnt mean I dont have to work on everything that is out there. I have been inside and out of an ION.

Ion trigger does suck. I couldn't hit over 11bps with it in semi. Just impossible. No matter how i adjusted.

Eyes are fine, that isn't a factor because you can buy a new G7 type lazer eye board from lucky paintball for $25. Eyes would cost you $12 anyways to replace.
The only problem here is you are upgrading the marker, if you do as you state above. This increases the base price of the marker from $290 to $315 on the high end or $302 on the low end. If it isnt standard equipment then you have to increase the price to at least be able to compare the to markers at a retail price level, if no where else.

Ion is a good gun for the money, with an aftermarket bolt.
Again you are adding in additional parts that are not stock. Increase the base price of your ION and then compare to the stock ProMaster.

The Promaster could never come close to the lack of kick the ion has. Your comparing spool vs. Ram type markers.
I completely disagree with this statement. You can get the kick of the ProMaster down to the same level as the ION or less. But as I stated before I am only comparing stock markers. If you want to reduce the recoil of a ProMaster you simply need to install a ULP Ram and BI hammer. This would reduce the recoil of the marker to that of an ION or less and it costs about $50. You could most likely get the recoil down with simply the addition of either one of the two forementioned items. This would reduce the price to roughly $25

It's a personal preference.
Most all of paintball is

I own both, and too be honest, the promaster i know won't let me down in the middle of a game. The ion however, blows hose's every once in a while. And takes a few minutes to replace. So you have to sit out a game or 2.
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:07 AM   #11
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GGG loko under high end electros for the section about the best cheap high end. Look at my post comparing the two if shootpaints judgement was not enough for you.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:06 PM   #12
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i have one lying around here too but its no where near as deep as shootpaints or pb4fun's but is ok...

edit: http://www.icd-owners.com/html/modul...ewtopic&t=7209 <--i swore it was on here but o well this one is the same
by the was thats the best thing about the ion or promaster i have ever read shootpaint thanks

this thread>soap opra
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:29 PM   #13
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Ok shootpaint I'll try to rebutle in a bit of a summarized fashion. I never said the ion was better in fact I said it was close to but not better. The interior shell of the ion would be harder than hell to bend and even if it does flex it is pretty much snug on the body so any "flex" should be eliminated due to the fact that you have a rather strong aluminum body underneath it. If you can bend the interior body of an ion than you can just as easily bend things on a promaster. Yeah the trigger is bad and I'm not picky,but mainly I have very long fingers so uber short pulls arent that comfy for me. Also my trigger is set to go off with a about maybe 3mm of pull, I Literally can tap it and it will click the microswitch. And with the black heart board you are still under the cost of a promaster plus asa by about $20 or so bucks depending on how much you put into that asa. You would probably have enough left over to grab a qev and trigger. And if you can shoot over 20 bps without electronic aid or mechanical bounce I applaud you but I personally havent seen anyone that can. So really it being uncapped isnt that big of a deal because who can honestly shoot that fast and where is that allowed during a game in a tourney type setting ? (I believe I said this so I guess you missed it). And again I never never never said the promaster was not as good as an ion. You simply asked for someone to state a marker than can compete with a promaster and is in its price range. Well I did, and never did I say it was a superior marker. And sure there are a few lemons that come out but if you were producing as many guns as sp is quality control may be kind of hard to maintain for every single marker, some mistakes will slip through. And about the body I wasnt talking about color either. I was simply saying aluminum bodies can fade over time depending on anno quality, but the ion's body has a slight advantage because the composite is much less likely to fade. (and as far as cost goes I got a brand new ion for $250 and you can get them for around $230 bnib now, so that leaves about $180 for upgrades which is more than enough to get the ions firing rate up to that near the promaster with someone shooting in semi and a hopper than can actually feedfaster than 28 bps (since you can get a tboard for less than a black heart board and it is uncapped. O and I got $180 by adding it to $230 which equals about $310 which is what you would pay for a Promaster + cip unimount)
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Old 11-22-2005, 03:30 PM   #14
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I have seen two different markers now with coils go bad. I personally have measured them with a Fluke 87 multimeter to see if the coil had shorted. In both cases the coil on the noid measured under .2ohm.
Did they go out on their own? Ion owners i find are mostly peon 12 year olds that got their mommy to buy their ION. They are messing with stuff they shouldn't be. Fluke's are the best portable dmm's out. I don't know how they measure. If their is a specific function for capacitors and inductors on yours, most have capacitance but not inductance on them. And if it checks resistance using a dc current, inductors act like a shorted wire in dc, causing u to have almost no resistance. To measure inductance it needs to measure using an AC current.

Think again. I have had several of them apart. Just because we sale ICD markers doesnt mean I dont have to work on everything that is out there. I have been inside and out of an ION.
If you took it apart, you would see that even with a broken outer shell, it shouldn't cause anything to happen to the internals.

The only problem here is you are upgrading the marker, if you do as you state above. This increases the base price of the marker from $290 to $315 on the high end or $302 on the low end. If it isnt standard equipment then you have to increase the price to at least be able to compare the to markers at a retail price level, if no where else.
I meant that as a replacement alternative. If your eye's break, though they shouldn't unless you yourself mess them up. Or don't clean broken paint off of them.

Again you are adding in additional parts that are not stock. Increase the base price of your ION and then compare to the stock ProMaster.
Ion doesn't really need an aftermarket bolt. Stock one is just fine. It still has less kick them my promaster, not by much

I completely disagree with this statement. You can get the kick of the ProMaster down to the same level as the ION or less. But as I stated before I am only comparing stock markers. If you want to reduce the recoil of a ProMaster you simply need to install a ULP Ram and BI hammer. This would reduce the recoil of the marker to that of an ION or less and it costs about $50. You could most likely get the recoil down with simply the addition of either one of the two forementioned items. This would reduce the price to roughly $25
My promaster is all stock internally, but so is my ion. I don't know about a new hammer or bolt. I do plan on buying some.

Really it is all personal preference. I frequently use both guns. I use my ion for when i play front. It's small and manueverable. I love it. When i play back and need to lay out ropes. I use my promaster.

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Old 11-22-2005, 04:58 PM   #15
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personally, with all the IONs out there, its more of a noob tourney gun for those who just start tourneys and the promaster is a step up from that but is still a pretty good tourney gun and you dont have to spend $1000 to get a good gun
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Old 11-22-2005, 05:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTarget04
Ok shootpaint I'll try to rebutle in a bit of a summarized fashion.
I never said the ion was better in fact I said it was close to but not better.
Nor did I say that you said that. I was simply having a conversation with you about what I felt were the short comings of your marker. It is not meant to be a slam or degrading of the marker. It was simply me point out the areas of concern I have with the ION.

The interior shell of the ion would be harder than hell to bend and even if it does flex it is pretty much snug on the body so any "flex" should be eliminated due to the fact that you have a rather strong aluminum body underneath it. If you can bend the interior body of an ion than you can just as easily bend things on a promaster.
Here I would have to disagree with you. I dont have a ION in front of to me measure the thickness of the aluminum but in comparison to the ProMaster it is super thin. With the exterioir body being able to flex the interior aluminum shell must take the remaining forces applied to the body.

The ProMaster using the all aluminum body will be able to absorb and dispurse the load more evenly allowing for a much higher impact, in my opinion.

If anyone wants to donate the internal and exterior of an ION I have a 20 ton press, and the ability to read the pressures applied by the press on said object. The equipment to read the pressure would be a GSE 465 digital weight indicator with PEAK weight hold and a Revere 50,000lbs loadcell. Both of these items are traceable to N.I.S.T. standards and will be calibrated before any compression test is preformed. I am sure I can get ICD to supply us with a damaged/defect ProMaster body for the test as well.



Yeah the trigger is bad and I'm not picky,but mainly I have very long fingers so uber short pulls arent that comfy for me. Also my trigger is set to go off with a about maybe 3mm of pull, I Literally can tap it and it will click the microswitch.
As I stated above if you are going to change parts on the ION you need to add the cost of these parts to the base price of the marker so you can at least compare the retail cost of the markers. I have no problem with you saying to upgrade the trigger, only the fact that people forget to say that is an additional $20 (or whatever it costs).

And with the black heart board you are still under the cost of a promaster plus asa by about $20 or so bucks depending on how much you put into that asa. You would probably have enough left over to grab a qev and trigger. And if you can shoot over 20 bps without electronic aid or mechanical bounce I applaud you but I personally havent seen anyone that can. So really it being uncapped isnt that big of a deal because who can honestly shoot that fast and where is that allowed during a game in a tourney type setting ? (I believe I said this so I guess you missed it).
I am not sure what price you gave for your ION, or the various upgrades on your marker. I can however assure you that the ProMaster can be purchased with a quality ASA, such as a UniMount, for the retail price of $385.

The fact of being able to shoot above a certain BPS again isnt my main concern. I agree with you that the chances of a person pulling over 14-15bps without an electronic aid is pretty slim. I simple use the cycling numbers of a marker to give an indication of how well the regulators, bolt, ram, solenoid, etc... work. With a higher cycling rate you have a marker that is going to require a higher recharge rate, shorter dwell times, etc... The slower the CPS of a marker the longer any one part has to function which can show its lack of preformance.

As far as when and where you can use a marker above a set BPS. Most tourneys around here allow 18bps, ramping after the third shot. I know several fields around here that allow 20 bps ramping. There are places that do allow it and in these settings the ION's would not preform as well as the ProMaster without the additions of several of the above mentioned parts/upgrades.


And again I never never never said the promaster was not as good as an ion. You simply asked for someone to state a marker than can compete with a promaster and is in its price range. Well I did, and never did I say it was a superior marker. And sure there are a few lemons that come out but if you were producing as many guns as sp is quality control may be kind of hard to maintain for every single marker, some mistakes will slip through.
I understand you suggestion of the ION and there is nothing wrong with that. I was simply explaining why I felt the ProMaster was a better choice for someone. Again this isnt personal, so please dont take it that way. I think you can go back a few months ago and find a thread that ToothPasterDog and I did about the B2K vs Impulse. This was something that simply needed to be done just like that thread. That is why I encouraged anyone to respond, I was picking a fight if you will I wanted people to talk about about markers so there was a mean to compare and contrast the ProMaster to XYZ marker.

And about the body I wasnt talking about color either. I was simply saying aluminum bodies can fade over time depending on anno quality, but the ion's body has a slight advantage because the composite is much less likely to fade. (and as far as cost goes I got a brand new ion for $250 and you can get them for around $230 bnib now, so that leaves about $180 for upgrades which is more than enough to get the ions firing rate up to that near the promaster with someone shooting in semi and a hopper than can actually feedfaster than 28 bps (since you can get a tboard for less than a black heart board and it is uncapped. O and I got $180 by adding it to $230 which equals about $310 which is what you would pay for a Promaster + cip unimount)
Check your math real quick. 280+130 = 410.
As far as the body goes. I dont think the aluminum body is going to fade any quicker than the composite body, nor do I really care about the finish of the body. My only concern about the body is how strong it is.

Last but not least you say you can get a ION for $230 NIB, most sites that list the ION have what is called a MAP pricing. For those that dont know MAP= Minimum Advertised Price. You are required by the manufacture to advertise the product at that price. I do believe all sites on the net are currently listing the ION at $289 if memory serves me correctly.

The ProMaster MAP price is $389. I am sure you can figure out that if they ION can be purchased below the MAP so can the ProMaster. As I stated previously I can promise you the ProMaster can be purchased with a UniMount for the price of $385. That right there should be a little indication of what I am talking about.

By the way thank you for putting in your side for the ION. I am sure it is appreciated by those people that want to compare these two markers.
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no silly, Greg is ICD God. Who do you think makes all the Bushmasters? Shootpaint is like the ICD Jesus, cultivating the minds of the faithful and spreading the word throughout the unenlightened masses .
Except not quite as jewish.
(to any real live jews out there, I'm jk, its all in good fun )
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:26 PM   #17
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I think this thread should be sticky'ed for a ProMaster vs. ION.
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:30 PM   #18
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Shootpaint, one has to keep in mind that the ION is $100 lss than the ION if bought at MAP, so for that much you can get a Good trigger, a QEV and a little money to put towards a T-board . In addition to this, There are places where you can get ION's for $240, these are not mere rumors, and for the $145 that you now have, you can get all of the aforementioned parts. So if you have the money for a Promaster, you also have enough to make the ION perform pretty much on par with the Promaster.
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheps
Shootpaint, one has to keep in mind that the ION is $100 lss than the ION if bought at MAP, so for that much you can get a Good trigger, a QEV and a little money to put towards a T-board . In addition to this, There are places where you can get ION's for $240, these are not mere rumors, and for the $145 that you now have, you can get all of the aforementioned parts. So if you have the money for a Promaster, you also have enough to make the ION perform pretty much on par with the Promaster.
Exactly Sheps.
That is my whole point I have been trying to make. If you are going to compare the two markers and you want to bring them to a level playing field it appears that some ION users agree with me in the aspect that you have to install a few different parts/upgrades and this total price brings it into the same range as the ProMaster.

I have never said get this marker or that marker. I simply voice my concerns on areas of the ION that I feel need attention that will cost the user additional money above the intial cost of the marker.

We can keep going on and on about cost but what I think everyone is truely interested in is the preformance they can get out of said marker and what it costs. If you will be happy with a marker that comes out of the box needing a few upgrades and is capped at 20 bps then so be it. If you however are willing to spend a little more money and get a marker that is capped at 30 bps and will function, out of the box, as well as the marker that cycles at 20 bps, with the additional upgrades you get to 30 bps, you may find you save yourself a little money in the long run!!!

A prime example of this is the comparison of a BKO to the B2K.
Granted the BKO was $150 cheaper than the B2K but you needed to add several different upgrades to get the BKO to get it to preform at the same level as the B2K. Fact is the BKO was designed to be a entry level marker while the B2K was designed to be a mid level to low highend marker.
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Originally posted by lotus_esprit5
no silly, Greg is ICD God. Who do you think makes all the Bushmasters? Shootpaint is like the ICD Jesus, cultivating the minds of the faithful and spreading the word throughout the unenlightened masses .
Except not quite as jewish.
(to any real live jews out there, I'm jk, its all in good fun )
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:46 PM   #20
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Sorry shootpaint wasnt meaning to seem like fighting but come on its text so ones tone is kinda hard to detect. My math was off I'll admit but I was in a hurry because I was running late for my last class. I meant to say $410.

And no problem with my side. I'll admit to you, had the promaster been available when my funds were at the point where I felt comfortable in purchasing a marker I would have purchased the promaster. But when I did get it the release date was pretty much unknown so I didnt feel like waiting an aditional 3 months (since the promaster was due out in March but after that date past no one knew if it was still going to be produced or not) and miss my window for playing with my new toy in the summer. I'm pretty happy with my purchase but pretty much to sum it up for those looking at these markers, if you have the extra money to get the promaster do it. But if you would like a marker that wont break the bank as badly or you just have trouble justifying dropping that extra $100 on a gun go for the ion. As long as you treat both markers with respect and maintain them well they will do the same for you.
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